ALPA National Raids USAIRWAYS KPIT OFFICE!

[sevenstrokeroll]

A friend who flys for USAIRWAYS (east) just reported to me that ALPA national raided the KPIT USAIRWAYS MEC OFFICE. Changing the locks, installing security cameras.

This seems to have been done with regard to the recent seniority award which places pilots with just a few years of experience at America West senior to pilots at USAIRWAYS who have been on the job almost 20 years...through thick and thin.

There is an effort among USAIRWAYS (*east) pilots to decertify alpa and start a new union which would redo the seniority award to actually respect date of hire.

There is speculation that if USAIRWAYS pulls out of alpa, that other major airlines just might follow suit.

Anyone with more information, please post.

[flymore69]

RAID is definitely true, speculation regarding any replacement of the Nicolau Award.....ALPA National is highly agitated with
AAA:*

[400drvr]

Big meeting in DC next week between National, the AWA and AAA mec's.

[411A]

Yes, a reality check.
America West actually purchased the bankrupt assets of US Air, and it was certainly not a 'merger' in the usual sense.
A merger is when two going concerns join together.
US Air on the other hand, was just about to disappear if they remained on their own.
So, me thinks the old US Air folks have very little to complain about, for if it had not been for America West, all of these folks would be without a job.

And yes, ALPA will shoot itself in its collective foot at every opportunity.

[sevenstrokeroll]

411a seems to be quite wrong. evidence to the contrary exists that while one company has to go on record as the acquiring company, USAIR east has consistently made much more money than usair west (america west).

further research into something called "operation zanzibar" shows that america west was days away from going into bankruptcy.

profits from usair EAST are 3 to 4 times what the west operation is bringing in.

there is much misinformation being sent out.

all pilots who depend on union representation, who benefit from seniority, should and must keep an eye on what is happening.

[IGh]

"... all pilots who depend on union representation, who benefit from seniority ... keep an eye on what is happening...."

Should we permit any use of the term "Seniority List" when applied to a non-seniority merger-totem: with one company's pilots mostly placed atop the other company's??? For recent mergers, shouldn't pilots honestly acknowledge that their merged "Seniority List" isn't really?

For USA pilots, the requirements for a "seniority" list were defined in the October 1932 issue of _Airline Pilot_ [that original definition refers to a pilot's DATE of qualification at his "component" company]. Only a few mergers in past three decades have stuck with the idea of a "seniority list".

Ironically, many of the AW-pilots were earlier victims of the non-seniority pilot-totem, during mergers within the past decade.

[sevenstrokeroll]

It appears that the word "raid" might be an overstatement. however, this situation does demand attention.

[eight16kreug]

sad to say with the present state of the airline industry worldwide, that term is fast going the way of the analog dials.

[MrBernoulli]

Or 'analogue' as we say in Europe ......... and lots of other places.:ok:

Seriously though, this 'merger' (or takeover or whatever) stuff is becoming an issue here in Europe too!

[XL5]

The seniority award was derived through binding arbitration as agreed by both the USAir and America West union councils. Many factors were weighed, the award was made, but the final decision was not to the liking of the USAir group who now wish to retroactively change the rules of engagement. The arbitration was binding and changing union affiliation will not make it otherwise. ALPA's concern is not unexpected, the loss of such a major pilot group would be a serious blow.

[justjim81]

If you look at the paperwork filed, AWA did not buy USAirways. A consortium of groups put the money up. Neither AWA nor USAirways. It was a merging of the airlines.

[sevenstrokeroll]

IF USAIR leaves ALPA, United will likely follow and the end of alpa will not be far behind.

alpa managed to say bye bye to pensions, a huge amount of pay, reversed itself from saying pilots can't be sky king and marshall dillon at the same time. I loved what ALPA should have been, but what it has turned into falls short of the founder's ideas.

and to those of you who don't know...people with 4 or 5 years airline experience are now (or might be) senior to those who have flown the line for 20 years and have made captain.

there is one case where someone who was two years old when someone else got his ATP is now the senior pilot.


its also funny to watch this happen with a continental pilot at the helm ( cal used to be a scab line...though alpa head may not be a scab) and that some pilots at America West were only too happy to replace annsett airlines striking pilots in Australia.

If I am wrong, please correct me. But I would almost wager that the replacement union will win the big vote ahead.

[flyboyike]

I never did understand that particular "merger". It seems the best that could have happened is two crappy airlines becoming one big crappy airline, which looks to be exactly what took place.

[sevenstrokeroll]

a friend who works at usair told me how great a place it was just before the first gulf war.

it was a money maker.

the planes were very well maintained.

the flight attendants were very good looking

the pay, benefits, perks, scheduling was among the best in the industry.

you could get your time in, in 12 days

the best balance sheet in the industry.

first rate hotels.


mainline planes served small airports like Elmira, New York among others.

two mechanics were on duty each night at out stations.


except for weather and the last flight of the night, the airline ran on time.

last flights were always held for connections at hub airports.


KPIT, was one of the finest hubs in the country from an operational view.


Where did things go wrong? cheap airlines that screwed pilots pulled the whole industry down.

[Ignition Override]

Sevenstroke:
About ten years ago in Initial Tng. for a different plane, a guy there told us that he worked in Australia during the strike. It had been a good experience for him. Of course he was fresh from a military squadron (A-4) and was ignorant of civilian aviation. He flew the A-320 over there.

The other problem at USAirways was that the pilots were apparently cheated by Neil Cohen :E.

As to how the USAirways MEC agreed to certain language in their TA (tentative agreement) is baffling to me. Upper Mgmt. then announced that the pilot retirement pension was then terminated. What language was overlooked, or was it vague, deceptive wording?

Mr. C. might want to reconsider staying in this business.

[flown-it]

In February and March of 2003 US Airways spent over $10 million on some very capable lawyers who persuaded the bankruptcy judge that the airline would go TU if they didn't get the pilot's pension. The ALPA leaders believed the company (who said "chapter seven if you don't give us the pension") and caved. Smoke and mirrors and an ALPA leadership who went off to bigger and better things at ALPA National caused the loss.
At about the same time ALPA national conducted a successful campaign to shoot down a campaign to change the age 60 rule.
Finally the debacle at the new US Airways. Going to arbitration is a crap shoot. US East pilots should never have been talked into letting that happen..again ALPA failing its members.
ALPA is long past its sell by date and should be replaced.

[Chris Higgins]

I don't know about that. I used to work in the old school house on the 75/767 and thought it wasn't looking too good...and it certainly wasn't at that time, but I've been flying on them lately and they're clean, on-time and full. All of the staff seem more motivated than they used to be and even the on board announcements are better. I think they're going to be just fine now if they can start getting this merger language sorted out. I haven't been this optimistic about their future in quite some time.

[411A]

Chris is right, and the ALPA folks at the 'old' US Air can like it, or lump it, take your pick.
One thing is for sure, they won't be able to do anything about it...:rolleyes:

[IGh]

“Consolidate” for profit! for economy! for reduced competition! So says the market.

Ok, is it a Merger, a Route transfer, or Acquisition? (does it matter?)

OK, now:
-- do you want modern Labor Protection Provisions (LPPs)? or
-- do you prefer a simple “seniority” merger [from ALPA in Oct’32 suggesting use of a “Date” of qualification at a component company]? or
-- maybe use a 21st Century southern anti-labor concept of first consolidate, and then “dump” their more “senior” guys, or maybe keep or even “staple” a lucky few.

Merger-“Seniority” was lost to LPPs. LPPs focused merely on “compensation” rather than the older “seniority” idea (seat, bid-order).

United-Capital provisions? [ca ‘61]
Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs? [ca ‘72]

Was it a Merger? No, Acquisition? Or Route Transfer?
“The term "merger" as used herein means to join action by the two carriers whereby they unify, consolidate, merge, or pool in whole or in part their separate airline facilities or any of the operations or services previously performed by them through such separate facilities....”

Complicated? Read the following sentence about a “merger”, and then judge the simplicity or complexity of Labor’s merger-LPPs versus the simplicity of the older “seniority” concept:

“... no employee of either... carriers ... merger ... shall ... be placed in worse position with respect to compensation than he occupied immediately prior to his displacement so long as he is unable in the normal exercise of his said seniority rights under existing agreements, rules, and practices to obtain a position producing compensation equal to or exceeding the compensation of the position held by him immediately prior to such date, except, however, that if he fails to exercise his seniority rights to secure another available position, which does not require a change in residence, to which he is entitled under the working agreement and which carries a rate of pay an compensation exceeding those of the position which he elects to retain, he shall thereafter be treated for the purposes of this section as occupying the position which he elects to decline...."

From 411 just above: "... the ... folks at the 'old' US Air can like it, or lump it ..."

Hmmm, is 411 suggesting an appropriate regard for this pilot-group, in light of their past merger-seniority decisions?

Question: How often has USAir (or its merged or acquired components) deviated away from the “seniority” concept in earlier “mergers” or “acquisitions”?


All American Airways (start-up in ’37, pilots signed with ALPA in ’50).

In ’53 “All American Airways” name-changed to “Allegheny”.

In 1968 Allegheny “acquired” Lake Central (nee RoscoeTurnerAero from’47 with a name-change in ’50 then signed w/ALPA in ‘52).

In 1972 Allegheny “merged” with Mohawk [nee Robinson since start-up in ’45, signed w/ALPA in’49, w/name-changed to Mohawk in ’52].

In ’79 Allegheny name-changed to USAir.

In ’88 USAir merged with PSA [PSA start-up in ’45, pilots signed w/ALPA in ‘81].

In ’89 USAir merged with Piedmont [since ’48, signed w/ALPA in ’52 (in ’84 Piedmont merged w/Empire Airlines w/Empire pilots “stapled”?)].

[PantLoad]

So, what does the current ALPA Merger Policy say? I'm not familiar, so this is why I ask.

Does the seniority list award (America West / USAirways) satisfy the current ALPA Merger Policy?

Let's continue the discussion from there.....

PantLoad

[sevenstrokeroll]

pantload:

well, according to EAST...it does not follow alpa merger policy and didn't even include some pilots that were on the seniority list.

WEST of course believes that it follows alpa merger policy to a tee.

there might be a court trial about it...

one might also look at the history of nicolau, the arbitraitor. he was fired by the NHL I think.

oh well.

one must wonder why the AFA (flight attendants union) simply went date of hire, and the pilots don't.

[PantLoad]

Sevenstrokeroll,

Yes, that's interesting...I'd like someone on this forum to excerpt the merger policy for us all to read.

If the award does not meet the criteria of the merger policy (coupled with the rumor that the arbitrator was canned), I would think there is a solid basis for a suit. (I am not a labor attorney.)

The flight attendants have always done better than pilots...it's because pilots typically have no [guts] compared to the flight attendants. If anyone reading this last sentence doesn't believe this...just look at what happened at American Airlines a few years back. (Never XXXX off a woman!!!!!)

PantLoad

[411A]

...initially fought with Carl Icahn (the white knight who had saved TWA pilots from Lorenzo)...

Hmmm. 'saved' might be just a tad strong.:rolleyes:
One must remember than Lorenzo actually did save Continental from an early demise, and of course ALPA resisted aplenty, yet continue to reap the rewards...well, some of 'em anyway, the ones that were smart enough not to have walked out.
Alpa is its own worst enemy. and will likely never learn from past misdeeds.
The silly fools.

[sevenstrokeroll]

the union (USAPA) which plans to oust alpa at usairways has almost 3000 signed cards that will soon be filed with the labor board...this number of cards indicates a MAJORITY of all pilots at usair...both east and west. a vote will likely be along the lines of these cards.

ALPA national is probably very worried right now about losing over 11 million US dollars a year in dues when USAIR changes unions. It is not a done deal yet, but be sure to stay tuned.

A revolution is starting boys and girls...keep a listening watch...

[PantLoad]

About 40 years ago, the pilots at American Airlines did the same thing...

PantLoad

[sevenstrokeroll]

hey pantload....better late than never

[IGh]

Found some comments on this century's mergers. Seems pilots these days no longer hold any concept of the original "seniority" concept -- but for some reason still want to preserve the words "Seniority List". The future of any old fashioned labor ideals seems mostly dead, judging from comments of 21Century pilots; also interesting to contrast the north-south differences over worker-rights and mergers:


The PacWest/ CPAir ... AC merger ...
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:JTzdWpJPzxEJ:www.cirb-ccri.gc.ca/collections/publications/decisions/RD0349_b.pdf+merger,+Air+Canada+Pilots+Association&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us
[ca 2006]
“... The controversy over seniority has continued for more than 5 years and, if anything, the rancour associated with it appears to have intensified overtime. The lesson to be learned from this whole experience is that competing employee groups must reach a compromise on seniority, an issue which they largely own, because the success rate of third parties finding a satisfactory resolution is not impressive....”

“The “Original Air Canada” Pilots ...” [ca 2006]
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=211812&highlight=merger%2C+Canada%2C+seniority%2C+list

American Pilots view ... merger [ca 2001]
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2515&highlight=merger%2C+American%2C+ALPA

[BenThere]

The pilots have little or nothing to do with the finances, and snapshot relative strength of merging companies. It was just as hard to get hired at TWA or PanAm in 1975 as it was to get hired at American in 1985.

My point is, I think there's too much battle done between pilot groups when a merger occurs for the purpose of relative benefit, and the spoils tend to go to the larger or more aggressive group, regardless of national union affiliation, or not.

Wouldn't it be better if we sought the fair solution rather than the one that lines our own pockets best?

I don't know the perfect way to do it, but I suggest a seniority blend based essentially on hourly pay rate, adjusted for fair value of such things as pension disparities, guarantee differences, etc.

Airline mergers present difficult times for the pilots of each group. In the past when I've heard the aggressive calls to 'Staple 'em', I've thought to myself, how crass and selfish. Instant karma's going to get you.

Isn't the right and noble thing to do to speak out for the fair blending of seniority lists, and reap the benefits over the years of having a more unified combined pilot group rather than one smug group of 'winners', and an angry group with a bone to pick?

I've never been in a merger, but I see the possibility in the not to distant future. And I've been around long enough to know that today's strong airline could very well be tomorrow's sick man, and vice-versa.

Every pilot, from commuter FO to wide-body captain, is my brother in aviation. I hope when I am at your mercy you will think likewise of me. Our profession has or will confront all of us with insecurity, frustration, and a lot of dues-paying. I see no sense in preying on each other.

[sevenstrokeroll]

preying on each other:

does it make any sense to make someone who has been an ATP for 2 years the captain, while someone who has been an atp for 20 years the copilot?

does it make sense to make someone with 10 years left before retirement junior to someone who has 30 years to go?

of course not. but that is what happened in this case.

don't think it can't happen to your airline...and don't think that KARMA doesn't come round to correct wrongs.

[W Weasel]

Hired over two and a half decades ago at US Air I went through two mergers – PSA and Piedmont. Fortunately for me I retired (after pension abrogation) before this current mess. There has been a lot of good and some misstated info on this subject. US Air was a money making machine! In 1989 it was number one in the USA for total passengers carried. Yes above Delta, United and even American!

In an effort to forgo the dearth of acquisitions of the 80s US Air HAD to “get rid of its excess cash” to avert the likes of Carl Ichan etal. It was grow or get chewed up. Now many criticize the likes of Ed Colodny and Butch Schofield, but they had to do what the industry dictated them do – spend the cash and grow the airline.

In fairness to them (Butch had 38 years at the company coming up as a bag-smasher to getting an MBA and CEO) they got tired of the BS. That left the company to the sharks. Rocky and Bullwinkle (Rakesh and Steven Wolf), never did anything for more than a year David Siegel and the lot. All walking away with tens of millions while putting the company into a mess.

The pilot’s responsibility was never ending. The Civil War continued from 1989 until I retired in 2003. The reasons were many but an underlining factor was that the merger brought a lot of senior pilots from another airline that went under only 7 years earlier (Braniff in 1982.) Piedmont grew very fast as a result of having an available group of highly skilled pilots from the defunct Braniff Airlines. These pilots, starting again at the bottom of the list, saw Piedmont as their last stance. The mainly younger pilots of PSA and US Air (with an equal amount of seniority in their airline) saw them as peers; however, the mainly older and more experienced Piedmont/Braniff pilots saw it differently. Let the war begin!

The company attempted to appease all with higher pay for the “Southern Division” and continued growth for all but that did not satisfy the majority. 14 years after the merger the majority of pilots in CLT were former Piedmont while the majority of pilots in PIT were still US Air. It took only a couple years for the PSA pilots to assimilate into the ranks of US Air as did the Eastern pilots with the Trump Shuttle merger, but the Piedmont guys just had a really hard time with it.

Not pointing fingers but simply pointing facts!

When AAA got the bean counters and dysfunctional management that happened in the 90s all came to a stop. Those without a chair were left out and some (after 10-15 years) found themselves at the bottom of the list. The battle became even bitterer. Braniff pilots on their last leg (in their late 50s) found themselves flying 737s instead of the DC-8 they flew 20 years earlier. We all know about size and pay with regard to airplanes. US Air guys who went from the right seat in a BAC-1-11 to captain on a 727 in 3 years too were halted. While younger, they had visions of sugar plumbs and candy canes that turned into 6 leg F-100s and DC-9s. The airline’s internal mess turned into a bastion of discontent and dismay.

Management took complete advantage of this situation putting the Northern Division against the Southern Division – the Civil War! Miami pilots found themselves in Syracuse NY. San Diego pilots found themselves in PHL and BOS. Captains on wide bodies went back to right seat on narrow bodies in order to hold a block. 20 years found you a reserve 73 Captain or 76 F/O. Anger flowed like the tide in San Francisco Bay.

911, restructuring, mergers have all passed; but the mess still exists. There are PSA pilots currently flying that remember when American West flew their first flight in 1983. They also remember when AWA almost went out of business with their B-747 fiasco.

Now this thread has used the word “Fair” many times. What does that truly mean? On January 1 1984 (when AWA was only 4 months old) they had about 45 pilots flying the line. That same day PSA had 285 pilots on their seniority list. Piedmont had about 1450 and US Air had 1600. Do the math! There were 75 eventual US Air pilots for every 1 American West pilot. Now when the mergers happened (in 88 for PSA and 89 for Piedmont) the numbers were higher (850 PSA, 2400+ Piedmont & 2600 US Air) but what is fair?

I remember when a US Air seniority number of 3500 got you the left seat in a DC-9 or B-737: what will that get the guy today – 15 years later? In the early 90s US Air had a total pilot force of over 6500, so once again what is fair? The guy who flew for 3 years then was furloughed for 10 years goes to the bottom 10% to a guy who was in high school when the furloughed pilot was flying for the company? The guy who took the sacrifices for the company is junior to the guy who was trying to fly straight and level? What is fair?

I submit it is not about fair. It is about what is fair to me and we all know me is a selfish animal. Oh me can justify whatever me wants just as the pedophile says “she was looking at me sexy. I knew she wanted me.” The fact that she was 5 years old does not matter to the me for “she was looking at me.”

I have learned all these years that the arguments do not come from actions. They come for the “me” trying to justify their gain. They become more violent when others do not agree with the me. That forces me to rationalize my position with more vigor and become far more demonstrative.

Those on the outside usually use phrases like, well you could be Pan Am or dissolve like Sabena. You should have saved your money for you make a lot. And many more effective adjectives and slogans! Yet unknown to themselves they have become the minions of those very individuals that destroy the profession. The Steven Wolf’s that paint airplanes and change names only to purchase large wine collections when all fails.

Just my 0.25 euros worth from a guy who took his football and left the field and now rides on a retired pass:ok:

Burners and Out!

[free at last]

Remember what you guys and all the hiring in 89 and 90, took/stole from the ALPA merger/fragmentation that theGreat Eastern Airlines had in effect, and you guys ignored it, fought it, and prospert from the failures and set backs from all EAL employees. You deserve what you got!!!!!

[BelArgUSA]

... and the blood continues to flow ...
Sounds like my strange dream of a national seniority list might be a solution ...
xxx
Seniority list based on (?)
- Date of original issue of FAA CPL (or ATP, now, everyone has one), or
- Date of first time hire as pilot by a FAR 121 air carrier...
xxx
Free flow of crews among carriers (?)
- You are unhappy with DAL, you resign, apply with UAL and get hired when openings exist within the above seniority system... to the position and aircraft type within your seniority (since you still practice "big iron = big money system"), or
- Like some foreign carriers, salary based on seniority and position, regardless of type of aircraft.
- And for the young ones, decent first year salary, above poverty level and food stamps.
Sorry - ex PanAmigo dixit... Amen
xxx
What a mess in Disneyland - Glad I am in the Pampas...
What do you expect from CEOs/MECs like Mickey, Donald and Goofy... ?
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[IGh]

Several of the messages above offer comments on “mergers” within the airline industry.

But isn’t that word “merger” misleading: have there been any “mergers”? or are these consolidations examples of Corporate Takeovers? Both managements might agree that the corporate “Takeover” is “friendly”, but the employees often perceive their Corporate Takeover as “unfriendly”, worse than the old Lorenzo-style of takeover of the 1980’s.

Several messages above comment on the “mergers” of this century, several messages mention “mergers” or “fragmentations” during the 1980’s -- but there are NO COMPLAINTS about any “mergers” during the 1990’s [there were none].

A “goggle” of the various terms yields several recent stories in the press.

“What Every Pilot Needs to Know About Mergers;” _Air Line Pilot_; May 2006, Vol. 75, No. 5 [pdf]:
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsView.aspx?itemid=6580&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256

One legislative proposal in early Nov07 suggests future binding arbitration over workers retention/displacement totem (the very cause of complaints after the list-mergers at AC and USAir):


http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/emaf.nsf/Popup?ReadForm&db=stltoday%5Cbusiness%5Cstories.nsf&docid=9D29E28D3C74D12686257388000C3B57
“... bill to soften airline merger impact on workers”
By Tim Logan
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
Saturday, Nov. 03 2007
“The measure is attached ... giant bill before Congress reauthorizing the Federal Aviation Administration. It has the support of several key lawmakers and some airline-industry unions.... Having a third party sort out seniority ...”

The ALPA Merger/Fragmentation Policy mentions a goal of “fair and equitable”. But some alternative labor groups explicitly preclude management from offering any “fair and equitable” settlement to any takeover target:

“... integrate the ... pilot seniority lists ... in a fair and equitable manner ... does not apply to ... a transaction which includes the acquisition of aircraft and pilots ...”

During a corporate takeover with this labor group, any targeted ALPA-group wouldn’t have any common goals for their soon-to-be “merger” list. Imagine the disadvantage that European pilot-groups might suffer during any Texas-style corporate takeover.

Look at some airline Corporate Takeovers, or acquisitions, of the past few decades. [Were there any “mergers” of airlines in the past few decades? ]

Consider which merger-perspective was more ruthless for the long-time airline workers? Which was more effective at retaining the younger workers? Which was more profitable for the short-time airline workers?

Pilot list? FA list? Mechanics? Furloughs before merger? Post-consolidation displacements? Seniority? or a non-seniority totem with one employee group at the top? Furloughs after merger?

-- Air France / KLM;
--- Lufthansa / Swiss;
-- Austrian / Lauda ;
-- SAS / Brathens;
-- AA / TWA
-- Canadian/ Air Canada;
-- AWA /USAir;

Maybe a more tribal winner-take-all perspective is the only “American” method of constructing any Retention/Furlough totem: integration means insurgents; instead why not a corporate cleansing? Consolidate, then furlough or release older employees when able, with limited furlough rights.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Today, Nov 13, 2007, USAPA filed over 3000 cards with the labor relations board calling to decertify ALPA at USAIRWAYS. 3000 is a great majority of all pilots including both east (real usair) and west(america west)

An immediate response from ALPA national was ,in this man's view, weak. Calling for unity and admiting that there was some small chance of overthrowing the unfair seniority award by USAPA. (in the guise of showing how difficult it might be...but it has more of a chance than alpa would give it)

The bell has rung, and it has rung for thee alpa.

[Johnny767]

Best wishes to the US Airways Pilots!

Mergers are an ugly business. The Air Canada - Canadi>n Airlines merger still carries hard feelings. Almost 8 years later, it is still in front of the Courts.

World War 2 didn't last this long.

[sevenstrokeroll]

thanks johnny 767

ALPA must start to think. With today's announcement that a major stockholder in both Delta and United Airlines indicating a possible, say again POSSIBLE, merger.

ALPA better be ready to reconsider merger issues and return to date of hire.

wake up boys or alpa will be history!

[411A]

wake up boys or alpa will be history!

It already nearly is, with one foot in the grave.:rolleyes:

[Ignition Override]

Another question is this:

Were another union to replace ALPA at two or more airlines, would that new union create a so-called 'national seniority list'? It is quite doubtful, because pilot Merger Representatives at any airline (whose airline name survives the merger etc) try to delude themselves into believing that the Golden Rule does not apply to the pilots at the other airline, despite the fact that the new company is a completely new corporate entity.

The Roberts Award at NWA lasted from about 1989-2006 and a friend there also told me that their Redbook Merger Committee still exists!

[5030N]

Sevenstrokeroll,

Pretty obvious that you're a USAPA troll, or at least have the bullet points memorized.

For the rest of us some points to remember--

The USAirways Merger Commitee had 18 months to negotiate a seniority integration with the America West pilots. They stuck to a date- of -hire proposal that would have effectively stapled 2/3 of the America West Pilots below USAirways who were furloughed at the time of the merger.

They had a further 3 days of mediation and never came off their original position.

They agreed to BINDING arbitration (following ALPA merger policy) and never moved from their DOH proposal, even after being told by the arbitration panel (read the transcripts Sevenstrokeroll) that their position was untenable.

Now they want to scream that the policy was flawed, it was unfair, the arbitrator was senile (your Merger Comm had a hand in picking this particular man, remember?), etc.,etc.

Don't be fooled.

This is nothing more than a seat grab by a group of petulant children who have decided that the principle of binding arbitration does not apply to them.

USAPA is about an attempt to have the seniority list thrown out and the America West pilots disenfranchised. Nothing more.

[Johnny767]

5030N, the fact that Sevenstrokeroll is a proponent of "Date of Hire," hardly makes him a Troll.

DOH is EVERYTHING to a Pilot!

Is it any wonder we are being raped by the Airline managers, when we are happy to sodomize each other.

Imagine what a Boeing 777 Captain would earn, if his skill was transferable and not tied to one Airline and one Seniority list?

[Airbubba]

Yep, I'd have a great DOH with my first ALPA carrier on that mythical national seniority list...:)

Very few pilot mergers in the past couple of decades have gone date of hire though. Maybe they did it that way back in 1932 but I've never been merged like that.

[Johnny767]

Three mergers for me.

-One "length of service," layed off guys got crushed,

-One DOH.

-One Ratio, plucked out of an Arbitrators ass.

[W Weasel]

Johnny 767 hit it right on the HEAD! “Imagine what a Boeing 777 Captain would earn, if his skill was transferable….”

This is the fundamental problem with ALPA and every other concept in American aviation. The fact is that YOUR skills ARE TRANSFERABLE just no one tells you so! A-320 Captains can make 200K a year after taxes. They can live in 4000 sq ft villas paid for by the company. They can receive 30-50K a year bonuses and stock GRANTS that only senior management receives in the USA. The problem is everyone argues about the scraps like a bunch of seagulls on the beach. Multiply the dollars for the larger equipment, but the facts are true. Here are a few websites to look at but guys until you take your services away from the folks in charge you will NEVER GET PAID WHAT YOU DESERVE!

Gulf Air = $10,000+ per month for sitting home (max 14K+ excluding housing.) http://www.arabianbusiness.com/495987-bdb-to-fund-gulf-air-pilots-in-20mn-scheme

Emirates $8,000+ per month basic + housing etc apx value $14K plus flight pay. http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/international/emirates.html

Etihad = $12,500+ per month + flight pay and mortgage payment.

Air Arabia = $11,100+ per month + flight pay. http://www.airarabia.com/documents/aa_capt_package_en.pdf

All of these include educations allowance that totals about 28-35K a year for private schooling for your kids. Free medical using USA, UK or German doctors and hospitals. Not to mention 45 days vacations a year to start, retirement, stock (for some companies) bonus etc. It is normal for Captains to make $13-15K a month ($16-18K with schooling and $17-20K for flying 90hrs/mo) for flying a B-737 or A-320. Not much difference for a B-777 or A-340 (or 380 for that matter.)

ALL TAX FREE AND NO DUES!

Go to Asiana, Cathy, Eva and do the same. Put in India and you will find it far more lucrative with guys flying A-340s making $15-17K a month. Want to fly an A-380 for Kingfisher, you have some heavy time, you could make a deal for well into the $25K range a month. http://www.flykingfisher.com/careers.asp Want to fly an A-340 for Jet Airways to London? Ok you could command $20K a month and a base NOT IN INDIA but Europe. http://www.jetairways.com/Cultures/en-US/India/About+Us/Careers/Expat+Pilot+Application/


Guys the opportunities are unbelievable, but it will never change in the USA as long as you guys continue to fight for the scraps. The rest of the world has guys flying 12-15 days a month making $15-20+ grand to do so. As I said in my previous post I retired from that mess a number of years ago. The fighting has not changed only the names did (Piedmont-US Air to American West-US Air.)

Take a small little company like Air Arabia, they started 4 years ago like most of the companies did out side the USA. I mean the Chinese companies (China Southern, China Eastern etc) the Indian companies (Kingfisher, Spice Jet, Indigo etc.) and the Middle East companies (Etihad, Jezzier etc.)

Air Arabia (ABY) had a couple airplanes and flew to a few cities – nothing for those of us in the mega carriers. Inside a few years they had 10 planes and flew to 39 cities. They just ordered 50 planes, paid $3.9 billion CASH and plan to fly to 80 cities in the next 2 years. They started with a dozen plus pilots and today have a couple hundred hiring all the time. 40% of their Captains were F/Os less than 2 years ago. Average pay is over $13,000 tax free per month plus perks. Average price for gas is less than $1.30 per gallon for 93 Octane (lowest available) and tuition for American University at Sharjah (accredited by Middle States Schools and Colleges in association with University of Delaware) is less than $5,000 per semester. Also GWU, George Mason, Boston College, Duke and SUNY are represented at the same price.

Furloughed guys from many carriers flew in this part of the world and while definitely different, no where near what anyone ever had the last 15 years in the USA. Guys that would not see the left seat in ANYTHING were sitting left seat in an A-330 of B-777 after only a few years. It would take them decades to get into the RIGHT seat but now they have time as boss.

Emirates just order some 20 billion dollars worth of planes including the 380 (total 60 planes after their initial order) along with only 11 more 777s. They have a fleet of over a hundred planes where the smallest is an A-330 (except for 2 A-310s for cargo that are going out.)

So while I gave 1% of what is out there, as long as every one of you argues over who gets what and who deserves what, the USA airline management will continue to have you fight over the scraps? The Steven Wolfs of the airline industry will walk away with millions, villas over looking the Seine River and their wine portfolios while pilots will loose their retirements, pay, lifestyles – should I say seniority.

You can blame ALPA (and I have little love for them even though I was a member for over a quarter century) it is not their fault. As my old instructor use to say “S—t or get off the pot!” Maybe it is time for the American aviator to take his services to a part of the world that appreciates it and is willing to pay for it in more ways than the average ALPA pilot could ever imagine. ALPA can not help you nor will it attempt. It will argue like a politician (we all know they are – featherbedding) and attempt to convince one side (the larger or more financially able side) that the other side is wrong and just should shut up and take it. But the ultimate goal is like a virus in the human body – simply perpetuate itself for its own purpose at whatever expense it may take! The Real World without ALPA!

China = 1.5 billion passengers and the world’s second largest economy.
India = 1.2 billion passengers and the world’s third largest economy.
FSU (Former Soviet Union) = 480 million passengers and the world fifth largest economy.


Shanghai to Mumbai (Bombay) is 2717 nautical miles with 2.7 billion people (44% of the world’s population and 29.1% of the world’s wealth.) Moscow-Shanghai-Mumbai triangle has 3.2 billion people (50 %+) of the world’s population with 59% of the world’s 2007 economic growth. USA <2%, Europe <3% and China 13+%, India 11+% Russia 7.3%. Throw in the Middle East and while the population only goes up slightly the economics leaps to over 71%. Cheap Oil too!

BTW load factors of all carriers mentioned above is greater that 85% year over year.

Guys and gals the world is wide open and would really like to see you guys do what is necessary to protect your – our – profession. I have done what I could and as many say, one man yelling is like “pis-ing in the wind.” Well it seems that more are feeling that anger. It is not the AMW or AAA guy that is the problem. It is what the aviation system has degenerated into in the USA. We are not the threats at security nor are we the enemy to our passengers. The system has portrayed each and every one of us as such and the only recourse we feel we have is to fight with each other. But I suggest we have another option. Take our football and leave the field. Maybe then, when the pulling guard has left the field, will the rest of the team (and fans – passengers) understand that the 400 pounder was the guy that allowed the half back to get through the line?

Burners and Out!

[20driver]

Not sure if it is new but at least some are seeing the light.

Senority works for safety and scheduling purposes but makes pilots into serfs. Management must love it like nothing else. Try this pay cutting crap with a union plumber and see how far you get. He doesn't care he will just cross the street.

AA managers got bonuses to stay around because they have (or were precieved to have) skills that were portable. Show me the money or I walk and the guys above believe the threat. The pilots get walked over because they lash themselves to the mast with elaborate pay plans based on senority (and not incidentally screwing the guys at the bottom with the promise that when you are on top you can screw the newbies too).

It is going to be a big leap but Pilots are going to have to either get out of town or find some way to make their skills portable in the job market. If not the beating will continue.

20driver

[Self Loading Freight]

"China = 1.5 billion passengers and the world’s second largest economy.
India = 1.2 billion passengers and the world’s third largest economy.
FSU (Former Soviet Union) = 480 million passengers and the world fifth largest economy."

Such things are notoriously difficult to define. However, even Ryanair would be hard pushed to get enough money out of 1.5 billion Chinese, 1.2 billion Indians or half a billion FSUvians to define them all as potential (let alone actual) passengers. If you want a plausible definition of where the bodies are, what sort of money they might have in their pockets, and how they're thinking of spending it when they've fed, clothed and taught their kids, take a look at the various 'next billion' analyses that the mobile phone industry currently churns out.

See you in Shenzhen...

R

[411A]

It is going to be a big leap but Pilots are going to have to either get out of town or find some way to make their skills portable in the job market.

The get out of town scenario normally works, it's called going overseas for a direct entry hire.
A side benefit (usually) is no tax due.
A superb arrangement.
Take the kids with you...they will normally receive a better education anyway with the added benefit of a couple of extra languages.

Leave behind the silly fools to fight it out.

[Airbubba]

Here are a few websites to look at but guys until you take your services away from the folks in charge you will NEVER GET PAID WHAT YOU DESERVE!

Yep, you boys in DXB need to lead the way with this union stuff. Withhold your services in the UAE and you'll find out what you deserve. :)

Of course, being an American, I'd rather have a 4000 sq. ft. house paid for by me than a "villa" (read tacky apartment with cheap furniture) paid for by the company. I've tried it both ways.

The rest of the world has guys flying 12-15 days a month making $15-20+ grand to do so.

I'm sure that would be news to your brothers with EK. They fly 90 hours a month hard time, month after month. They claim to make somewhat less than the numbers you give.

Expat flying for an American is kinda like patriotism, the last refuge...

[RetroFire]

XL5- Are you a Gerry Anderson fan?

Retro

[sevenstrokeroll]

I don't know if XL5 is...but I am.

I wish I were a spaceman, the fastest guy alive, I'd fly you 'round the universe in Fireball XL5.

supercar etc

[W Weasel]

Self Loading Freight

I beg to disagree with you. Obviously you have no idea of the spending capability of the people I mentioned. Please look at the profits of the airlines serving these passengers. $100s of millions of dollars in net profits is the norm. They have quite a bit of spending power, a lot more than mom and pop who travels on Thanksgiving expecting French Wine with their $29 ticket!

Airbubba

Unfortunately you do not understand what the guys in DXB do. No they do not withhold their services as you suggest, they simply take them to someone who pays them appropriately. EK currently has about 1500-1800 pilots however, they have averaged hiring about 30 pilots a month for the last 5 years. In 03 we had about 900 (my seniority was 896.) Now you do the math. 30 a month for 4 years+ is 1,440+ pilots. Add that to 900 and you have 2,300 pilots. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OTHER 500-800 PILOTS? THEY QUIT!

They took their services to other carriers. In 2006 we had about 30 TRIs (check airmen) leave the company and take their services elsewhere for personal reasons. The Chief Pilot, the Fleet Manager all took their services elsewhere. So unlike your thinking it is not about “withholding your services” and seeing what it will get. It is about taking your services to the carrier that will give you what you deserve. People change carriers the way you change your underwear – and that gives you POWER!

As for the salary, please look at my example correctly. I did not say EK paid that much (although they are close) but I said airlines paid that much. Personally I feel EK is a shinny apple; nice on the outside and rotten to the core on the inside. Bite into it and you get a mouth full of worms. However, there are many other carriers that do pay that much – EK is loosing it shirt to them on a daily basis. Look at some of the other carriers, I sent you their web pages, which clearly show their pay scales. Take a look!

At tiny Air Arabia a Captain with 2000 hours in type can make 40K+ AED per month for sitting at home – that’s $11K US. Flight pay is paid differently than in the USA for it is paid ABOVE your basic. That means you do NOT have to fly a present number of hours to reach that minimum. You fly ONE hour and you get paid ONE hour above your minimum. It is a progressive scale so the more you fly the higher your hourly rate. Once again look at tiny ABY (a small fish in this ocean.) Fly over 50 hours and you get 120 an hour, over 75 and it is 240 an hour. And that is CREDITED time, not actual. A 5hour 10 minute night flight pays 9 hours credit. It is easy to make 130-150 hours pay time a month – AND REMEMBER THIS IS THE SMALL FISH.

While I agree EK, with its arrogance does not match the rest that does not mean the rest do not exist. The mentality you portray is that which existed in72 when Southwest started – tell me about those 70s guy’s retirement today!

Now you mentioned the housing. That is a problem each pilot has to deal with. You mention villas that you imply are lousy. Well I completely disagree with you but that is personal so I will not argue your personal needs. I will say this. Obviously you have some information on the housing allowance received here. Do you know that EY give the pilot the option? He can take 120K AED (about $33,000 US) a year and apply it to his personal home. I mean BUY IT! Get an extremely low interest loan and buy your own home. So if your home is a mess well that is what you choose. NO WAY DOES EK, EY, G9, or anyone else REQUIRES YOU TO TAKE THE COMPANY HOUSING! But the housing is not all that bad either. As for furniture, well you can take the company furniture or YOU CAN TAKE THE CASH AND BUY YOUR OWN STUFF – or bring it from the USA – they pay for that too.

Please guys and gals I do not want to make it sound like nirvana, but compared to what you argue it is. We can’t get two pilots to agree on when to put the gear down so there will always be dissent. Except for flying airplanes, bitch is what we do best! However, I stand by my points! :ok:

You have the lead, burners and out!