REX suspends Cooma services - due to pilot shortage

[eye_in_the_sky]

Oh but remember, the other airlines are "Poaching" REX pilots, they're not looking to get out...

Why aren't management heads rolling for this???

----

Media Release
31 October 2007
ONGOING PILOT SHORTAGE FORCES REGIONAL EXPRESS TO
TEMPORARILY SUSPEND ‘SNOWY MOUNTAINS’ SERVICE
Regional Express (Rex) today announced that it will temporarily suspend its single return service which operates six times per week between Sydney and the Snowy Mountains (Cooma).
The service will be suspended from 19 November 2007 to 18 May 2008. Rex General Manager Network Strategy and Sales, Warrick Lodge, said that the airline industry is facing a current and potential future shortage of pilots. Mr Lodge indicated that while Rex has been proactive in recruiting and training flight crew, in recent weeks the airline had been forced to cancel some services due to crew sickness.
“To ease the pressure on flight crew availability we have undertaken a review to lessen the potential for unplanned flight cancellations by temporarily scaling back some services. This has resulted in our Sydney to Snowy Mountains services being suspended over the summer off-season period.
“The Sydney to Snowy Mountains route is heavily influenced by stronger demand associated with the winter snow-season with the majority of travel occurring in the four months from June to September. By temporarily suspending the Snowy Mountains services during the off season we will ease the pressure on flight crew availability and unplanned cancellations across the remainder of our network which have higher levels of demand year round.
“Historically, Rex has achieved the lowest cancellation rate in the Australian airline industry and we are striving to get back to these levels”, Mr Lodge said.
Customers holding a reservation for travel between 19 November 2007 are 18 May 2008 are entitled to a full refund which can be processed by calling the Rex Customer Contact Centre on 13 17 13.
- 00 -

[Ultralights]

so does this me we tempoarily no loonger need an ASIC at cooma?

[Lodown]

What happened to those heady times of slashing labour costs? Many managers were employed on the basis of their abilities to be pr!cks and cut labour and other costs while ignoring their consciences. Many aren't very good at anything else.
Have patience. It takes time for these same managers to grow a conscience now that they suddenly find themselves in need of all the labour they can attract and retain.
It also takes time for the various boards to wake up to the realization that slash-and-burn managers are not easily retrained to the grow-and-harvest types. Heads will roll. It just takes a while.

[Harry Muff]

Heard on the grapevine that more flight crew have resigned from Adelaide this week??
Can anyone confirm this??

How long until REX begin suspending services out of Adelaide / Melbourne??:confused:

[Chippie Chappie]

It takes time for these same managers to grow a conscience ........ :D

Can't find the smile that shows laughing enough :} They're still short-sighteded and their financial planning is reactionary. Don't think they're looking to give the crews more than the minimum that they can get away with.

[Aussie]

Since on topic, anyone know of any recent FOs to join REX and just how many hrs did they have??? Curious....

[OhForSure]

700 TT... rumours of much less.

[Ang737]

There are FOs in the mix with much less than 700TT. There is a guy in currently with 250TT.

;)

[Aussie]

You would think the guys instructing with around 7-800hrs TT would jump at the opportunity yeh? Beats GA!

[4PW's]

Used to fly for Hazo's, hence my interest here.

There's a thread on the SE Asia forum about Indian nationals training in the USA; thousands of them, and that there will not be enough jobs in India for all those CPL holders.

Don't want to ring any alarm bells, but what do you think of the probability Government might allow 500 of those aspiring pilots to come down to Australia where there is a clear shortage of labor at Rex, et al?

There's only the small hiccup of transferring the US licence to an Australian CPL. Shouldn't think it'd be that hard, though I'm no expert in Licencing.

Allowing labor to migrate all around the world is what many high powered businessmen are calling for, the Harvey Norman guy's recent strident comments being the latest of these.

Hate to see it happen.

Do youse think it's likely?

[404 Titan]

4PW's

Australia goes to the poles in about four weeks. Howard will be thrown out and a union controlled and funded Rudd government will be swept into power. Yes, big business does have Rudd by the ears but the unions have him by the balls.
There's a thread on the SE Asia forum about Indian nationals training in the USA; thousands of them, and that there will not be enough jobs in India for all those CPL holders.
This is a rumour network remember.

[mention1]

The answer is simple.

There are basically 3 types of pilots at REX.

1./ The pilot who will do anything to get in a Big Jet no matter what. Thats always been the goal.

2./ The pilot who was willing to stay but has a feeling of "I don't want to be left behind". Make hay while the Sun shines. I'd better get on this ol' band wagon before it finishes. And...

3./ The pilot who is basically happy to stay. Have wife and kids now and need to settle down. Besides its a good life, right? No back of the clock shifts or SIms, home most nights etc.

Its this last cat (3) that the managers should be after. They probably don't need a huge pay rise, just a sence that they are being asked "what can we do to make your working life a bit easier?" Maybe 2 weekends off a month instead of 1, maybe a carpark pass or what ever. Its so easy to fix.

Unfortunately they are being ignored and thus are leaving. Der!~ :bored:

[Naverick]

M1,

There's another category of pilot that Rex cannot afford to lose. Check Cpt's!
Especially those with sim approvals. The company has lost many of these in recent months and with the current trend, will continue to lose more.

Rex are being left well and truly behind in this industry. Personnel and equipment are moving on to a different level and management have left it far too late to stop the haemorraging.

[Under Dog]

She'll be right Naverick they will have to just introduce a cadet scheme for checkies.That seems to be the answer for everything.

Regards The Dog

[Naverick]

Under Dog,

..........and don't forget the cadet scheme for FOI's

'Lord of The Flies' is an appropriate allegory for Rex;

A group of schoolboys trapped on a deserted island who attempted to govern themselves and failed disastrously

[halfmoon]

As mention1 mentioned, Category 3 is why i interviewed and wanted to go to rex. Unfortunantly or fortunantly I didn't get in. After 3 months and 4 emails i finally get a rejection letter from Sandy in HR. I found it quite funny ready the letter. I should have saved it and posted it. Basically, Thankyou for your time........the number of applicants was high................yaddda yaddda yadda...I find it hard to believe 500 hour pilots are getting in.

[Fifthleg]

So what are they actually paying their drivers these days?

[KRUSTY 34]

About 40% short of what they need to!

[Cool banana]

not enough

[Going Boeing]

I believe that REX has announced that it is reducing its Sydney - Wagga services from 6 to 4 per day due to its lack of trained pilots.

[RYAN TCAD]

Halfmoon - thats quite funny! I interviewed with them a month or so ago and found them to be quite disorganised and unprofessional.

I received a ****ty 4 minute briefing on speeds and power settings for their Metro Sim of which i've never flown one before let alone been in a full motion sim for that matter - and flew the approaches right on the mark.

i have round 1300hrs and had not flown for a while. The candidate before me said he didn't go so well on the sim - so i thought i'd be in with a shot. Interviewed well and all good.

Next day i got an email in the arvo from Sandy at Rex HR to say "sorry / candidates very high / unfortunately - blah blah blah... same letter as you!

Me scratches head all confused and proceeds to get tanked on Sat night and laugh it off. In fact one part of me thinks that they just get people down there to utilise their sim with kickback from that outfit trading as Ansett. Also the other possibility is that they are going to try and lobby Government to allow cheap labour in the country again by crying out that there are not enough suitably qualified pilots out there?

The following week on the Monday at Qantas i had Testing and Tuesday (Medical / 767 Sim and interview) for QF Link and had a call from them congratulating me on being successful!

So wow, i'm really dissapointed that REX didn't scoop me up - Guess i'll have to go with second best being QF eh? ;)

[RYAN TCAD]

Just to confirm and cap off with what a two dollar tin-pot outfit they are, - i just dropped my mother off at Mascot - who is flying down on the 0810 to Albury with them this morning (ticket was purchased by her employer unfortunately) and as i was leaving, she called me to say they have at least a 1 hour delay.

Because - (from checkin chick at the counter) the pilots had to fly to Cowra last night and there was some delay and they now have to have their full 10 hours rest which means this flight is delayed this morning!

Now that checkin chick has obviously had to rattle this sort of correct tripe off before! That pilot shortage seems to be biting them where the sun don't shine baby!

[halfmoon]

I'm glad its not just me. I aced everything the sim, tech quiz and maybe screwed up a couple answers in the interview. They didn't want my 4500hrs of saab experience, instead they want 250 hr monkeys for 6 years.

[KRUSTY 34]

halfmoon,

I think you may have hit that nail on the head mate!

Why spend time and money on qualified professional pilots, when you can suck in the unitiated, train 'em, chain 'em, and get them to pay for the lot.

A home grown workforce, locked into a financial prison, with the only hope of escape at the governer's pleasure.

Pure Evil, Pure Genius!!!!

[Boney]

Myself and 2 others I know went through the interview process at the start of the year. All of us had ...

Total time 2,500+
Multi Command 1,000+
Night 250+, with extensive IFR hours in machines such as Chieftains, Aerostars etc. One of the 3 even had a degree in aeronautical engineering.

How many of us got a position?

Zero

[Chronic Snoozer]

Well obviously they want something that you haven't listed.

[boocs]

What has been The Company's response (if any) to "If you want to retain your pilots, try paying them a higher salary". I'm not quite up to date with the latest in terms of negotiations b/w the pilot group and Management.

Apologies if this has been answered before.

b.

[43Inches]

The hours get you an interview, the interview ascertains whether you learnt anything during those hours!

[Shapeshifter]

Halfmoon - thats quite funny! I interviewed with them a month or so ago and found them to be quite disorganised and unprofessional.

i have round 1300hrs and had not flown for a while.

in fact one part of me thinks that they just get people down there to utilise their sim with kickback from that outfit trading as Ansett.

Just to confirm and cap off with what a two dollar tin-pot outfit they are,.... Because - (from checkin chick at the counter) the pilots had to fly to Cowra last night and there was some delay and they now have to have their full 10 hours rest which means this flight is delayed this morning!


From all the dribble you have just produced I would say that Rex recruitment are right on the mark :ok:


How much will the endorsement cost me?

You are free to obtain a Dash 8 type endorsement from any supplier, however our preferred supplier is Qantas Flight Training. If you choose Qantas Flight Training, the cost to the applicant will be approximately AUD$10,000 (after QantasLink subsidy).

Qantaslink FAQ (http://qantaslink.bfound.net/det-contact.aspx?jobid=30950&CoId=189&rq=2)

Remind me, how much will you be taking home in your first year at Qantaslink minus your 10 grand endorsement cost?

Guess you will just have to go for second best eh Ryan?

What if I fail the endorsement? Do I get my money back?

No

Best of luck with your training Ryan, try not to think too much about how much is riding on that final sim check :=

[KRUSTY 34]

boccs,

There have been no negotiations.

The company has offered nothing to stem the loss of experienced crew!

[Ultralights]

sounds to me they want the lower hr guys so they will hang around longer than someone with 2500hrs! someone who they can mold to their system.

[boocs]

Krusty,

I assume there is some form of Representative Group on the pilot's behalf, have they tried to get the message thru to management or negotiate or have some form of dialogue with them?

Just interested to hear what's happening on both sides of the fence.

b.

[KRUSTY 34]

No worries boocs.

The issue was raised at a meeting back in April. The Regional Express Pilot's Comittee, REXPC, proposed that unless REX dramatically increased wages, the attrition of pilots would lead to serious harm for the company.

The current EBA is not due to expire untill July 08. Technically, no ambit claims can be made regarding wages, conditions etc untill negotiations for the new EBA commence. The reality is that any sort of move in this direction will have to be initiated by the company. Of course they could do something now if they wanted to, after all it is they who pay the wages. As far as the EBA discussions go, you can claim all you like, they don't have to accept it.

The proposal by the REXPC was therefore a suggestion on how to mitigate the current situation. It was estimated that the cost to the company would be approximately $6.25 a ticket! The Company has seen fit to discount any action in this area, as is their perogative.

The only response possible from the pilot group, has been with their feet. The current attrition rate is in the order of between 30%-40% P/A, and the pace is accelerating! Very frustrating, and very tragic!

[boocs]

Sounds like a 'loss of face' thing as well. Aren't the owners/boardmembers from Singapore or somewhere in Asia?

Thanks for the info. How hard is it to say "enough's enough?" Obviously too hard.

good luck.

b.

[Bendo]

Ultralights,

that is not correct - I know of candidates with over 3,000 hours getting a run.

boocs, the notion that asian cultures have a monopoly on "loss of face" thing is a myth - we call it pride here, hence the old saw
"pride cometh before a fall".

[aircraft]

boocs said:
I assume there is some form of Representative Group on the pilot's behalf, have they tried to get the message thru to management ... ?
You think it hasn't occurred to management that improving the T&Cs might help to retain pilots? If you think that then you probably also think other pilots need to be informed of the necessity to retract the undercarriage after takeoff (so as to reduce drag and make the aircraft more efficient).

KRUSTY 34 then said:
The issue was raised at a meeting back in April. The Regional Express Pilot's Comittee, REXPC, proposed that unless REX dramatically increased wages, the attrition of pilots would lead to serious harm for the company.
That REXPC is either 1, not too bright, or 2, dishonest.

Management know, that even if you give the pilots a $20K rise they will still move on. Why is it the pilots don't know that?

I actually suspect they do know that, but have chosen to taken the dishonest route instead. What do you think this dishonesty has done for their credibility in the eyes of management?

[aircraft]

Hear hear Bendo.

Boocs, can you show me an Australian that doesn't mind "losing face"?

It is a trait of the ugly Australian to espouse this so called Asian trait.

[WynSock]

Aircraft - Management know, that even if you give the pilots a $20K rise they will still move on. Why is it the pilots don't know that?


OK, hypothetically, would they still move on if you gave them a $100K payrise?

Probably not - "but thats ridiculous" I hear you say..."the airline can't afford it!"

OK, let the market decide what it can afford. Let the "poaching" continue, from the aero club to Rex to DJ to Emirates, let the market decide. It will all settle down eventually, it just requires a correction. Three cheers for the free market...

I just hope you don't expect the Market to keep a firm hand on minimum standards, training and experience.
The market is essentially deaf to the warning bells of disaster.

[KRUSTY 34]

aircraft,

you really are a tool, but we all know that.

Why were the REXPC being dishonest, when they were simply pointing out a possible course of action to retain experienced staff? In view of absolutely nothing forthcoming from management in this area, at least they suggested something!

If you truely believe that the retention of current pilots in this crisis has no merit, then please share some of that logic with the rest of us.

If you believe that the retention of pilots has merit, then please feel free to share your thoughts on that also!

One thing is certain. Commands at REX running at just over a year. There is no indication that the current attrition of pilots will decrease anytime soon. The company has stated that the cadetships are the only viable way of replenishing the ranks. In a years time, who will you put into the left seat???

Finally, I agree with your assertion that even an extra $20K P/A will not retain pilots, It will take more than that!

[GoNorth]

Remind me, how much will you be taking home in your first year at Qantaslink minus your 10 grand endorsement cost?

About $2000 less than a Rex FO for the first year only (if you stay).

Leave and you have a bond to pay out with Rex (you don't with Qlink)....stay and you earn 10K more per year base than a Rex FO.

What was your point again Shapeshifter? :=

[landof4x]

Wow aircraft, such an armchair expert. Get back to flight sim inbetween your trolling.

Anyone who has trained/operated with Asian crews for a significant time will be able to instantly recognise you have not done so, and are pulling stuff out your *** again.

Yes, everyone has pride. No-one likes to look like an idiot, but to think the strength of this in Asian culture and it's effects in aviation is on par with Aussies, or any other country's drivers, smacks of ignorance.

Do some serious time working with Asian people and learn it the hard way, or actually take a long hard look at the statistics. The recent 73 overrun might be a good starting point.
Don't get me wrong, they are fantastic people - very humble, respectable and have the ability to make fantastic drivers with great mental aptitude. And I loved working with them. But to say saving face is no less a problem there than anywhere else, well, once again proves to the pilot fraternity you are an idiot.

[Howard Hughes]

What a load of crap Aircraft!:rolleyes:

Of course pilots will always move on, pilots move on from Qantas too you know, but if you make terms and conditions such that you reduce the percentage that move on, then surely both the company and the employees benefit!

Furthermore when a company starts to lose very experienced check and trainers, it is a sure fire sign that something is terribly wrong!:eek:

[KRUSTY 34]

Just come to light.

Another REX training captain has been accepted by DJ.

Happy trails mate, see you soon?

[aircraft]

KRUSTY 34 said:
Why were the REXPC being dishonest, when they were simply pointing out a possible course of action to retain experienced staff?
Because the REXPC knew pay rises would have almost no affect on pilot retention. I did actually say that in my post - if you had read it properly you wouldn't have had to ask me this question.

Of course pay rises of around $100K will result in a much greater likelihood of pilots staying but we all know (or should know) that rises of that magnitude are impossible. I also believe that rises of $20K are just as impossible.

If you truely believe that the retention of current pilots in this crisis has no merit ... If you believe that the retention of pilots has merit, then please feel free to share your thoughts on that also!I have never made any comment on the merit, or otherwise, of retaining pilots, but as you have invited me to state the obvious:

Retaining pilots has merit.

landof4x said:
Anyone who has trained/operated with Asian crews for a significant time will be able to instantly recognise you have not done so, and are pulling stuff out your *** again.
Asian people are equally as capable as Australian or any other people at achieving excellence as a pilot - you said so yourself in your final paragraph.

The recent 73 overrun might be a good starting point.
Aviation history has many examples of this captain's behaviour, but not all those examples involved asian pilots.

Howard Hughes said:
Furthermore when a company starts to lose very experienced check and trainers, it is a sure fire sign that something is terribly wrong!
Rubbish. The movement is entirely related to the massive recruitment being undertaken by the major airlines.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Aircraft said:

Rubbish. The movement is entirely related to the massive recruitment being undertaken by the major airlines.

Firstly, the current market makes it easy to leave and stay in the industry.

Secondly, for alot of very experienced check captains, moving from a company - at which you were once happy - to another, is alot of brain damage.

New type (with all the training and testing), new company, often a new basing, start at the bottom again etc etc.

For most, I would suggest that if things start looking and smelling like a ****e sandwich - time to move on.

Not to mention being responsible for signing off on the 'up and comers' i have mentioned on other posts.

Too much fukcing headache.

[landof4x]

Aviation history has many examples of this captain's behaviour, but not all those examples involved asian pilots.

That's like saying there are more people than just you who have said something stupid on pprune, so that doesn't mean you are any more stupid than the rest. But that's wrong, because you have proved it time and time again in multiple posts, on multiple subjects, to heaps of people, over a long period of time - just like cockpit gradient accidents by Asian crews - they now show trends over long periods of time, and averages far higher than other countries.


Asian people are equally as capable as Australian or any other people at achieving excellence as a pilot - you said so yourself in your final paragraph.


Correct again, but I'd know because I worked with and trained many of them myself. You wouldn't know because you have never been there.

I'll say it again, ARMCHAIR expert. Back to flight sim, sunshine.

[aircraft]

landof4x said:

The recent 73 overrun might be a good starting point.

So come on, how does this accident suggest that asian people have "more of a problem with losing face than the rest of us"?

[Mr. Hat]

Aircraft, some cultures have ARE more prone to the losing face aspect issue in the work environment than others. Plently of studies on cross cultural CRM on this topic.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Having said that its equally dangerous to generalise based on cultural diversity.

Don't know if it applies to the abovementioned 73 overrun.

[eye_in_the_sky]

FACT: There are many senior REX Captains that wish(ed) to stay.

Why?? -- they accepted the reduced pay (conditions) for the lifestyle working in a regional afforded them.

This was until about 2-3 years ago, where most rosters involved 50-60 hours flying, many 2 sector days, 4 overnights and (some) appreciation from the Company.

What's changed?? -- the Companies view to the individual as a number to be worked as hard as possible. Rosters are always approx 80-90 hours stick time, 7-8 overnights and absolutely no appreciation from the top down.

Many are waking up to their old defense of
---
"Why would I work for DJ/JQ and get flogged, when I can stay here and have my family life, etc..."
---
holds no relevance as they are being flogged just as much, but for half the money. And to put up with keeping an eye on 700 hour CPL's, not that's it's their fault. In my day REX was a 3000-4000 hour job. And yes, I do believe that most 4000 hour pilots are more switched on than 700 hour CPL's.

That is all.

[landof4x]

So come on, how does this accident suggest that asian people have "more of a problem with losing face than the rest of us"?
OMG, once again you have missed the point. Your answer - this one accident doesn't, it was suggested as a starting point. I'll say it again - it's a trend, like the difference between weather and climate. Do you get it now? No one accident is ever going to prove it, especially since our friend Mr. Reason stated there's never just one cause for an accident. Or did u miss that too?

As Mr. Hat stated, many cross culture CRM studies have been conducted. They also notice problems with those of Western culture, such as getting restless with repetitive tasks, inability to do something the same way 100 times (ie trying their own way because there "must" be a better way to do this") and more likely to become slack between checks (ie flying differently when someone is watching).

Like I said before and I'll say again, go and do your research.

[boocs]

Eye,

I think you may have surmised 1 (if not THE) problem with the current state of affairs wrt Regional Airlines in Oz.

b.