SAAF Future

[Catalytic Ignition]

I see everyone talking endlessly about the state of affairs in the civilian airline environment. My question to everyone: Is what is taking place in the civilian environment not happening in the Military environment as well???

The merits of the SAAF and its well trained crews can be seen from the crews that are in such high demand in the international market at present with the likes of Emirates etc, that have just left the National Carrier.

Anyone with comments?????

[pointer41]

The merits of the SAAF and its well trained crews can be seen from the crews that are in such high demand in the international market at present with the likes of Emirates etc, that have just left the National Carrier.


I dont really understand what you are trying to say, but it might just be me.

As I understand, the SAAF has for considerable time (I guess since about 1940 or earlier) been losing aircrew to the civil sector, and some to abroad. However, I think the industry concern is the impact of losing commercial aircrew. The military pilot does not necessarily qualify for commercial work, it pretty much depends on which aircraft they served, related experience and of course, ratings. But of course, that is stating the obvious.:cool:

Said tongue in cheek of course...:)

The problem for the local industry, as for the SAAF, is when training, recruitment, etc. cannot keep up. It takes seven years to build seven years experience, there are no magic courses to create heavy trainsport commanders, etc. It is speculated that the current orders placed on major aircraft manufacturers actually supersede world wide training capability, meaning a pilot shortage is coming. One can only hope it will see a decline of shady operators and poor pay for guys sweating on contracts. :ok:

[Catalytic Ignition]

The point that I was trying to make is the following: If training and managment within the national carrier is said to be declining, then what is to say that the same thing is not happening to the SAAF.

Earlier threads point to the SAA Cadet Scheme and point out the high failure rates within the various intakes. There are numerous opinoins being expressed as to how poorly managed SAA has become.

The SAAF and SAA are both government controlled.If the national carrier is in this situation of decline. What is the state of affairs with regards to the SAAF???
What is the publics view of the SAAF?

[Placido]

The SAAF has other problems unique to it. At this stage they're not bleeding lots of pilots for 3 reasons. First, the major exodus was during the 1990's and that left very few pilots that stayed.
Secondly, the bonds the pilots have to repay now is alot higher than what it used to be. In the 1980's a training bond was around 10-12K that was reduced by 10% per year from date of start of training. Now a bond is in exess of 1mil and it's only reduced during the last couple of years of the first 10 year contract - so they simply can't leave.
Thirdly, they don't fly enough. After 10 years your hours are too low, sometimes your hours will be too low to qualify for ALTP testing after 10 years!

So, the pilots end up being stranded exept if dad has lots of money...................

[wing tip brakes]

here we go again. SAAF training is the be all and end all of aviation. Get over yourselves. Most nowadays do it the hard way and pay for it

[Catalytic Ignition]

If the contracts are worth in excess of 1mil then is the type of training worth it in the end. And judging by the last thread about military training being the be all and end all, is a young person who would apply for this training and enter into it really making the right decisions.Surely a pilot wants to stay in the air, no doubt. Now of hearing that there is not much flying taking place then the question is why join in the first place.

Regardless as things seem to be, there are however still youngsters despritely trying to join the SAAF as Pupil Pilots.

As a comparison between SAA and the SAAF young pilot training programmes, which has most success rate? I wonder....
In terms of training, which would you join as a prospective student.
Now for the sake of our senario lets just say that race be kept out of this one. Which would you choose?

[Avi8tor]

SAAF training is the be all and end all of aviation. Get over yourselves. Most nowadays do it the hard way and pay for it
Here, here, well said.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure it was no picnic flying for 'die NP en NG'. But I am not sure because u flew 'impalas in the battle of britain' made you a suitable candidate for a career in a airline.

If its your dream to be trained to shoot the S:mad:t out of somebody on the ground, and maybe wanna get the chance to try it for real, crack on.

Do i think there would be value in learning to fly in a Chippie and SF260, so u get to do tail dragger, aerobatics and formo flying? Darn right, I am still a huge believer is stick and rudder skills despite this new fangled nonsense about only 60 hrs towards a comm in the real aircraft.

[ZERO3L]

here we go again. SAAF training is the be all and end all of aviation. Get over yourselves. Most nowadays do it the hard way and pay for it

Wing tip brakes-your user name is obviously as a result of the huge chip on your shoulder since you clearly did not train in the SAAF.

For losers like you who think it was a walk in the park-you got it wrong. Those of us who flew AND fought in the SAAF made a huge sacrifice to do what we were trained for.
You obviously dont know what it was all about so I suggest you wind your neck in and accept that you were not as fortunate as those of us who were trained in what was THEN-up to 1990, the BEST training organization in this country.

And by the way, since much criticism is directed at the so called "jet jocks", remember that many of us flew transport aircraft and helicopters etc and were not jettys.
Its never wise to generalize.

[fly nice]

Zero3L - can I assume you are not Airbus rated. From his user name, I assume WTB is:cool:

[Avi8tor]

Oh dear, this is about to head south.

is obviously as a result of the huge chip on your shoulder since you clearly did not train in the SAAF.

Is that as opposed to the guys that have a huge chip on their shoulder that did train in the SAAF?

Could a civilian flying school with a largely unlimited budget have done the same work, you bet ya.

Save this one for the pub or behind the bicycle sheds.

The question was about training in today's SAAF or the civil route, to me, answer as clear as day. Anyway, civil or military training, the only way you will get hired is with civilian flying experience.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Still needed us fireforce okes to come haul your huge vlammie mudbox out of the dwang when you screwed the cat, though....:}:E:ok:

[Jamex]

Way to go SRT! Just what I needed right now.:O I was on a fireforce mission to get a vlammie out myself back in the day. Tell you about it sometime.:ok: Your comment really caused quite a laugh this side!

[madherb]

Anyway, civil or military training, the only way you will get hired is with civilian flying experience.

Not quite true. A civilian licence is required; lots of pilots have been hired directly out of the military, with the odd hour on a pc for the licence or rating.

Think Safair in the good ol'days, for example. Plus a lot of chopper jocks.

[wing tip brakes]

You ex SAAF jocks bring these reactions on yourselves.

Quote The merits of the SAAF and its well trained crews can be seen from the crews that are in such high demand in the international market at present with the likes of Emirates etc, that have just left the National Carrier.
What this comment is saying is EK and others are only employing the SAAF trained guys. That is total bull. (SAAF arrogance shinning through)

I watched a super dooper jetjock SAAF trained war hero f:mad: up a decent 6 love, got himself 6000' low on the profile and just dragged the 747 in. Maybe he just got target fixation. I can like to want to land at Jan Smuts wiff my jumbo.
Some top top guys which have been SAAF trained. I'm talking about their character here, that I work with. But I think the main criterea for SAAF selection was you had to be a jerk off by nature, hence some of the reactions above. Then some good guys slipped through the system.

03L You're quiet right, I wasn't SAAF trained. I've got no hangups about this. The difference is I and all the civy guys carried you and your SAAF buddies because we paid for your and our training with tax money. Don't tell me it was for folk en Vaderland either. The amount of lives waisted was just criminal.

03L are you not AF by any chance. I've heard that little argument on a London flight once. Good morning.:ok:
By the way, PPRUNE is a form of entertainment, not a serious debating forum. So you can all relax now.

[reptile]

I think the main criterea for SAAF selection was you had to be a jerk off by nature

If that was true, you should have made selection with ease......what went wrong: you colour blind or something??

[ZERO3L]

Oh dear Wing tip brakes. You talk about jerk offs......
Anyway, I am not going to drag this out, but you clearly are a complexed little chap aren't you.
You state that this is a forum for entertainment..
Please explain your outbursts:
. I'm talking about their character here, that I work with. But I think the main criterea for SAAF selection was you had to be a jerk off by nature, hence some of the reactions above. Then some good guys slipped through the system.
Its really not worth debating with you but your outbursts reflect your character.
And no, sorry, but I am not AF.

[Avi8tor]

LOL...told you this one was on its way south....:}

Not quite true. A civilian licence is required; lots of pilots have been hired directly out of the military, with the odd hour on a pc for the licence or rating......Think Safair in the good ol'days, for example. Plus a lot of chopper jocks

Your not gonna get hired straight out of the SAAF in SA anymore, those days are long gone. Think its only the traditional RAF retirement villages(BA and CX) that still do that.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

The SAAF jamstealers were OK but there was always a touch of the hairdresser about them. Nevertheless, I still reckon they were good blokes on the whole and that every home should have one...:}:E:ok:

[777Contrail]

I don't think the original intention of this thread was whether the SAAF did or did not do good/better/best training, but rather whether they are also going through the same pain that airlines are going through.

That is, losing pilots in droves.

The Air Force came up with the current system of contracts to force pilots to stay. The achieved their goal.

Also remember. An Air Force invest heavily in its people (note the generalisation). They sellect people on far different criteria than airlines. The profile is different.

They need officers that can lead people into, and out of, situations that civilians cower from. And they must be pilots as well.

Because you didn't make the SAAF selection doesn't make you an incapable pilot. You may have simply not fitted their profile or even been plain unlucky because they've found enough bodies to fill all the training courses.


Now back to the original post.

The SAAF pilots that want to leave may be a big percentage, numbers? I don't know.

The SAAF pilots than can leave are few. No hours, no type ratings, huge bond and even no license, are all problems.

[unablereqnavperf]

Avi8tor
Even BA is no longer an airforce retirment village! Most "aunty Betty's flying club members" seem to be gathering on the Airbus fleet at Virgin Atlantic! I can assure you the wa****s there are far worse than the SAAF boys!

ps. Am ex myself!

[nugpot]

Your not gonna get hired straight out of the SAAF in SA anymore, those days are long gone.

Not true. SAX just about wiped out 21 Sqn 8 months ago.

[777Contrail]

21 SQN being the only ones that still fly some hours, have licenses etc.

And we're talking about how many pilots?

No, as a pilot pool the SAAF doesn't count any more.

The 21sqn guys are all quite senior in rank and must have been offered a nice starting package...............

[nugpot]

must have been offered a nice starting package..

Standard scales.

[divinehover]

Thanks to WTB for my SAAF training. I would never have been a pilot without your contribtion. What would the aviation industry be without you?

[pointer41]

There seems to be, and has been for a long time, some bashing of SAAF pilots by the civil sectors, and vice versa. I think this is because the two groups are largely isolated from each other. Having been on both sides of the fence, I think the civil sector is exceptional on the commitment and dedication of guys and girls working their way up, where the SAAF is exceptional in the amount of airborne time dedicated to training (Goes figure for some high risk profiles and not having to show profit!:E). Of course there are other highlights of both "camps", too many to mention.

Would it not be nice to see the two camps rather sharing ideas, experience and so forth, instead of mud? :ugh:

But as for the thread's theme, I do believe the SAAF is badly feeling the strain imposed on the exodus not only of pilots, but technicians and other specialists, too. Or so I'm told...