How many are leaving CX ?

[Rice Pudding]

Thought it would be interesting to find out. Does anyone know ? I heard of 3 F/O's that resigned this week. I have also counted 10 F/O's who have decided not to do their commands in favor of remaining on their basing.

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Ive flown with a couple of S/Os who said they are putting in their letter anytime soon. And they seem to be serious. Also one of them told me that 3 out of his "team" of 6, joining some 3 years ago, have already left and he was gonna leave next year. Changes of time I suppose.

[MinimaNoContact]

Where are they going? Grass greener job hopping?

[Night Watch]

These are the ones that I know personally that have left... (all S/Os)

1... Easyjet
1... Jetstar
1... UPS
1... Air France
1... Emirates
1... Netjets
1... Corporate in Europe
1... Fedex

[Frogman1484]

add to that 3 FO's that have bought a flying school in Oz.

[rhoshamboe]

Love that one frogman, talk about chinese whispers...

[Rice Pudding]

Yes I know 3 just resigned to go back to Oz.

A friend of mine also just resigned to fly corporate jets in Canada. He was with CX for 8 years, and due to do his command soon.

[rhoshamboe]

Sorry Frogman, I retract that last comment, it may well be you are referring to ANOTHER 3 who have gone that I am not aware of!!

[Frogman1484]

might be the same that rice pudding is talking about...they did resign 2-3 weeks ago...not sure. I was telling night watch to add them.

[Frogman1484]

now that should add up to 12

[MinimaNoContact]

Heard that 3 guys have bought part of a GA charter company in NW Aus, but I didnt realise they had resigned to do so??

[Rice Pudding]

By the way....

Air China are recruiting qualified A330 captains for their Sydney base. Pay is around US$13,000 per month with a travel allowance, after tax.

You must be prepared to live in a country with clean air, large houses, etc.

[coded_messages]

Don't know it if has been mentioned earlier but a Freighter FO just went to VS recently. Had not been in Cathay long either.

[stakeknife]

Slightly off topic, but I was offered DEFO last year but turned it down due to crap renumeration. Interstingly, 8 guys on my Hk interview day, 5 got offered jobs, only 1 took it up, rest of us better off where we are! There are too many better options in Europe, VS EZY and BA etc. Good luck to you guys at CX! The one guy who took the job was flying props in OZ so was a good move for him!

[Colin Oskopi]

The three f/o's are or already have resigned.

There is also some evidence that the seniority list is not being updated to hide the numbers leaving. Ask around. A freind of mine has been in the company for about 18 months and his seniority has gone up by 7. In 18 months?

[oriental flyer]

The numbers are increasing steadily , but it still isn't large enough to really worry them . Until that happens nothing will change. Once they really start to hurt hummm!!!!

[DrunkenAir]

The seniority numbers vacated have been reserved for the CX/KA integration. They will go to KA crew in order of our seniority.
This is after all fair. You will not have not lost anything as you have the same number!

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[Mach75]

How many pilots have been with the company for years and regret ever joining? If you could do it all over again, would you still have joined CX?

[SMOC]

I never would have! CX just keep chipping away, and the pollution is out of control! I always assumed it would turn around and get better :ugh: (CX that is :}) If we could piss seniority off, I'd go somewhere else and I'd imagine a whole lot more would.

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Flew with at freighter crew (LON) the other day and was informed that 5 -400 Freighter F/O jockeys resigned in october. 3 to go to Easyjet, 1 for Virgin Atlantic and the last one I cant remember. Keept the numbers rolling folks. Talk with your feet.

[The Resistance]

Two more accepted by UPS on Thursday. I imagine they will be giving notice with CX within the week.....:cool:

[Buttie Box]

Another FO off the Classic, been there a year, is off to Rolls Royce to fly the Gulfstream and Spitfire.

[Buttie Box]

This almost deserves a thread of its own, but is in addition to what's been covered earlier.

Someone was up on the 3rd floor talking with DH about the seniority list. Apparently its not being updated in order to hide the number of crew we have, or don't, have. The seniority number you have just now will be the one you retain. Well, mine has hardly moved in the past 6 months; I'll keep an eye on it and let you know if it changes.

BB

[Fly747]

That's right, you are keeping your seniority number, this allows gaps for us to slip into from KA. You keep your number we get a new one. Good luck!

[BeefReefFlyer]

Question: Flying as captain for large(major) regional airline in the U.S. Based at home(no commute) and typically fly 4 days a week, approx 13-14 days off per month. Yearly pay about 85-90k USD(90-95 hrs flying per month). Very good travel benefits, no retirement(401k plan with company match). Health benefits good, not great. Already interviewed and offered DFO on the 744F. Do I take the job at CX?
.
Seems the opinions about flying for CX vary based on where, what routes you typically fly, whether a SO, JFO, or FO. Any insight, especially from folks based in the U.S., would be very much appreciated.
Alot of negativity about CX and flying for the company on this site. Been advised to ignore most of it, but where there's smoke.......
.
FAA ATP, over 7000+hrs total time, 1500+PIC turbine.
Current aircraft EMB-145.
.
Thanks for any help with the career decision.

[sisyphos]

Do it only if you ( and your family) are prepared to live in hong kong at some point. Don't assume you can have a career in cx exclusively on a base, it won't work out most probably.
Then, if you think you could live here, check it out for yourself before you sign up. Bring your family with you and look at the living conditions carefully. Things to consider : pollution, schools, social life of your family when you are away, volatile real estate market,general willingness to live in a foreign society, differences regarding possible time-out activities etc.
I wont go into the training/checking problem we have here at cx, I am sure you are already aware of that, but consider things like : lack of union (power), constant changing basing policies, cultural problems within the pilots group especially towards americans, very long time to upgrade with 65 age in force. On the upside : future of the company looks secure, no layoffs occured during sars crisis compared to american hire/fire culture at 9/11.

good luck

[Rice Pudding]

Dragon Air were proactive about getting their story into the media, and letting the public know why so many flights were being grounded.

CX have done a great job of keeping the CX crew shortages under wraps. Sooner or later it will get out. Right now they are relying so much on good will to crew the flights, robbing Peter (sorry Pete) to pay Paul on many flights every day.

Obviously they will need to extend the retirement age, and move to 3 man ULH to keep crewing aircraft....don't be surprised.

Much of the crew shortage here is a result of crew leaving before normal retirement age to go to other airlines, and the most common reason they leave is because of the way they have been treated over the years.

This says alot about the type of employers they are.

[Frogman1484]

Another Airbus FO has left!!! that is 4 of my friends in a month!!!

Let the flood begin.

[Bwatchful]

This is interesting from an historical perspective.

Gross annual wages of pilots at Lufthansa and other major airlines, 2000
Airline Gross annual wage in comparison with Lufthansa (Lufthansa = 100%) SAS 83% Lufthansa 100% Iberia 109% Air France 114% KLM 122% Swissair 124% British Airways 127% Average 127% American 164% United 165% Delta 167% Cathay Pacific 245% Source: Joint survey by Lufthansa and VC.

[Jose Jimenez]

Bwatch!
I'm VERY impressed that you used AN historical perspective, as opposed to A historical perspective. At least ONE other person on this planet knows the English language!

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

hey maggott.............doin' much toasting to your bonus lately?

:ok:ONE AIRLINE, ONE PAYSCALE, ONE ARMY:ok:

[The Management]

Mr. Truth Seeker, aren’t you a ban breaker? Not much you can do as a Junior First Officer, if you ever made the grade.

And yes, my bonus is very good thanks to pilots like this. See below.

On Sunday, HNG operating CX507 KIX-HKG had to ground-return due to a No. 2 Engine Control Message. The aircraft remained AOG awaiting a spare part. As a result HNF operating CX564 HKG-TPE-KIX was turned around and used to operate a delayed CX507. My thanks to the crew involved who used 2:08 hours discretion to complete the duty.

On Tuesday, HLS operating CX135 HKG-MEL diverted to ADL due to fog in MEL. The flight arrived 3hours late into MEL. Again thanks to the crew for using 2:13 hours discretion.

With continued 3 man ULH we will need less crew which means less expense and more bonuses.

The more discretion is used we need less crew, and you guessed it, less expense and more BONUS.

With reduced physiological rest at all ports means less crew, and you guessed it again, less expense and MORE BONUS.

So Mr. Truth Seeker who is the maggot?


To my bonus.

The Management

[EXEZY]

Sorry was that LEES, or less crew's. :}

[routetuner]

Read your postings and reckon you are a ******* ******! Get a life! Count the stars and work it out! ********!

[badairsucker]

Bwatch!
I'm VERY impressed that you used AN historical perspective, as opposed to A historical perspective. At least ONE other person on this planet knows the English language! 16th November 2007 15:07


Jose,

Your English lessons are getting a little boring now!!!:ugh:

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Jose,

You would not happen to be a Mexican fellow who has just been denied entry at the border - would you? :p You sound like somebody without any meaning to life... Take a chill pill man.. Ease up.. :ok:

[The Management]

So I’m waiting.

Several Airlines, Several Pay Scales and NO ARMY.


To my Bonus


The Management

[Westcoastcapt]

Good morning everyone,

I always find it quite amusing how so many can get so wound up by trivial anonymous posts. Can't anyone think for themselves? Moreover, many go off the deep end and start slagging their colleagues when they only have a small portion of the story. And it's usually the incorrect part. Gentlemen, please grow up.

No employer, no matter what the profession, can force you to do something that is illegal and not be held accountable. Of course, any rules are open for interpretation, so if you feel it is questionable ask them if it is a legal request. Remember everything is recorded. If they insist it is, record the time and date and the individual for further reference. The nonsense of misplacing tapes and other idiocies makes for good reading, but has no place in a court of law.

Sadly, many people overly value themselves. True, there is a shortage of pilots but no employer wants to offer a position to someone who they cannot count on to make reasonable decisions. If you think stranding 300 pax somewhere, while one makes a point, is professional, may I suggest that you are in the wrong line of work. Moreover, if you went sick on a regular basis, at the most inopportune time, I'd fire you too. Who wants to hire someone that is not reliable.

The reality is that CX is now hogtied by the very contracts that they imposed on us in the past. It is having an impact and they know it. Just do your job, thats all. And if people do choose to leave, CX will have no choice but to make some significant change.

Please let's move on.

Cheers.

[Mr. Bloggs]

If you think stranding 300 pax somewhere, while one makes a point, is professional, may I suggest that you are in the wrong line of work.

So it is perfectly professional by CX to continuously roster you to discretion, reduce your rest, reduce the crew compliment, etc. Meanwhile you as a Captain solely hold the responsibility. :ugh::ugh:

Grow up WCP. I will NOT take a bullet for CX. Roster me properly or I will strand 300 pax.:D:D

You are the type of pilot that CX loves. Will accept the abuse to no end and continue to do the job even when you are unfit because you feel stranding 300 pax is unprofessional. Where is your limit. More than likely, and you don’t even realize it, you are putting those very same 300 pax in danger by being unfit.:ok::ok:

[Westcoastcapt]

Again, someone being wound up by anonymous posts. I doubt there are any rosters that are published showing someone going into discretion. Nor, are there rosters that show reduced rests or reduced pilot compliments.

In fact, on many occasions I have spoken to many managers on issues that have concerned me and have received the respect that is due. Or if there has been an error, they have corrected it. For example, I see that the report time for domestic BT has been increased to reflect the reality. Makes sense to me, but I'm sure that someone out there is irate over it.

Know the rules and stick with the facts, please. For everyone's sake especially yourself.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Sorry WCP, I beg to differ.:rolleyes:

Some flights are rostered so tight that it is sometimes impossible not to use discretion. The company should monitor this but they choose to ignore it. :ugh:

Usually when you get to destination, you are informed that one of the pilot rosters has changed and you now have to do 3 man ULH or you are told that your rest is reduced. It happens all the time.:{

How about Captains being called the day before and asked if they will use discretion for the next day’s flight. It happens. When the Captains declines, the roster changes and an extra crew is called. This is not allowed to happen and a MOR should be filed.:=

Maybe it’s possible that just flying from YVR to HKG and back you don’t see much of this, but it happens all the time. Most times if it does happen to you, you may think it is an isolated incident but it happens all the time.http://starwarsloser.info/smile/confused/confused0054.gif (http://www.videowhip.co.uk)

So I act professionally and don’t go if I am unfit to complete the flight. I owe it to the passengers, that’s professionalism. That’s what I am paid for. I don’t do it to prove a point.:ok:

No I am not wound up because of anonymous posts; I wound up because of the facts.:ugh:

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

aren’t you a ban breaker? Not much you can do as a Junior First Officer, if you ever made the grade............yeah that's right and you were sweating and ready to kiss my ass in the hope i would join along with the other fifteen...........you management types were really sucking up to the "new joiners" as i recall. oh and sorry to dissapoint you but i did make the grade.......and you would be surprised what can be achieved as a lowley f/o......he's to your bonus.............hahahahahah:D

:DONE AIRLINE ONE PAYSCALE ONE ARMY:D

[NewEssO]

this one airline one payscale appraoch is really good, however it's not goign to work coming from individual contributers.

From my experience of coming from many different union body, something like this needs to come from a bigger/authorative mass. It needs to be coming from the AOA. Individual pilots voicing out our opinion is not going to work. Whining is not going to work, it will just lower morale. The union acts as a shield, and beleieve me a good union will get things done.

Along the same token, the AOA has GOT to do something, stand up and give people some incentive to join for christ sake. sheesh!

A critical mass is needed, otherwise we're just trying to chop trees with a butterfly knife, instead of using bulldozers.

I want my upgrades in a timely fashion, i want my basing, I want my pay. is that so much to ask? well,..i guess, since i haven't even started yet..

[routetuner]

As long haul pilots we are always tired at the end of the flight. If we go into discretion its all the same. 15 and 1/2 hours from Lax is normal us. You are a wimp. Get the job done. You dont it like then **** off.

[Kitsune]

15 years of CRM in CX and you still get posts like that.......OK Maverick, call the ball :ugh::rolleyes::ugh:

[Mr. Bloggs]

Root Tuner

Ha Ha.

How do you manage to go into discretion coming from LAX with an 18-hour duty day? :confused:Are you delayed on the ground that much in LAX?:confused: Does this happen all the time? :confused:We always make it no problems unless we have to divert into TPE.:ok:

Get the job done for a 0% pay rise for the last 6 years and now offered a 3% pay rise and a new COS forced upon us? You funny man!:}

Are you sure you are not “The Management”?:=

[BScaler]

I have recently been in contact with a DEFO pilot who was only weeks away from checking to line on the A330. He had completed a Qantas interview in the interim, been offered a job there, and decided to take the Qantas job in preference to the one he already had at Cathay.

It is important to note that this pilot was already hired at Cathay under current CoS99 pay and CoS - not the reduced pay and CoS that New Joiners will be offered after January 2008.

I will post, verbatim, and with his permission, his reasons for taking the Qantas job over staying at Cathay.

The details of this decision are as folows :

* Time to command at QF is estimated at 12-14 years. With RA 65, time to command in Cathay is predicted to be the same. The difference is, however
I can get this command in Australia with QF and I have to return to HK to gain command with Cathay.

* QF guarantee an Australian based career. With CX, although I start out on a base (a great deal), I will eventually have to return
to HK. A return to Aus after this is then difficult. I have heard through the rumour mill (Dakotas), that I would never have attained the seniority
to return to Aus as a Captain (as all of the 55-65 Captains will be in positions on the base). As my kids would be High School age then, this was not
preferable.

* The pollution in HK was terrible and much worse than I expected. While I enjoy HK as a city, the thought of living in that polluted environment for
much of my future was concerning.

* Qantas allow pilots to transfer between fleets quite easily when senior enough. With CX, I was committed to stay on the Airbus forever if I wished to remain
competitive for the Aus base. I was very keen to fly the 777, however didn't really want to commit to HK to achieve this.

* The Cathay leave system seemed to be very haphazard. Qantas is not much better, however at least at QF, when senior enough you can gain control over leave
preferences.

* I spoke to a vast number of pilots who strongly complained about the Syd based A330 roster. Their suggestion was that the time away was gradually increasing per
month and that the tasking whilst in HK was terrible (split duties etc). The didnt seem to enjoy the flying at all and they were all fed up with flying in Asia. I assume that
flying in Aus may be less stressful ( not that I have flown with an Australian Airline).

* CX has no union protection. Whilst I applaud the AOAs attempts to support the pilot body, it is obvious they they have no effective teeth. QF pilots on the other hand
seem to have netter protection over aggressive management.

* QF and Cathay seem to be growing at similar rates. QF does have Jetstar causing some pilots angst, Cathay has Dragonair.

* Financially, if I decided to remain in Aus permanently, the overall QF package was much better (up to 25% more). If I elected to move to HK, the CX package was much better.
As I preferred to stay in Aus, QF was the better option.

This pilot also expressed surprise at the speed that Cathay had him exit the premises following his decision to resign. He saw the Chief Pilot on the Thursday to announce his resignation and was on a plane south on the Friday. The explanation given him was 'We can't leave you here to work out your time at Cathay because you are a cancer that could spread...!'

In hindsight, he would have given 7 days notice immediately prior to his Qantas course, because the price he paid for being honest and up-front with Cathay was to sit unemployed for a couple of weeks in Australia before his Qantas course started.

Cathay do not adversise the fact that people are leaving, but they are, and for good reason. This is just one of them.

[Frogman1484]

Spot on...I cannot find a flaw in his decisions to leave...well done, that makes it 5 FO's in one month that have left...2 of which were Australian based.
I think next year as the jobs in Australia come on line, you will see a constant stream of Pilots leaving for the exact reasons the SYD based Fo mentioned...
I hope Nick and Phil are looking forward to their new postings when Cx starts canceling flights due to crew pissing off.

[Veruka Salt]

I can assure you that a Qantas F/O (except for the -400, and Airbus temporarily) works a hell of a lot harder than a SYD based CX F/O . . . !!

[BScaler]

Obviously this bloke did not canvas your opinion, but canvassed the opinion of others when he made his decision to go with Qantas...perhaps he may have even got it wrong on the work rate comparison. I guess he will find out in due course.

Would you care to comment on the other issues this guy brought up, such as the pay comparison; pollution concerns in Hong Kong; transfer between fleets advantage at Qantas; leave system comparison and junior officers' prospects for command with the imminent imposition of the retirement age 65 at Cathay?

[Veruka Salt]

Yep, happy to. I'll post some more stuff over the next few days.

[BScaler]

Good one, look forward to it.

Actually, while you are at it, perhaps you could shed some light on why three Cathay FOs, (having supposedly attained the 'Holy Grail' of airline jobs), not being too far away from command, would choose to forego their career here and throw it all in to buy a charter outfit in WA?

Perhaps their roster would be better running their own operation? Maybe they'd have a better chance of getting leave when they wanted it? Surely it can't be the pay...? Or perhaps the families preferred the lifestyle back in Oz? Regular trips to unspoiled beaches? Fish that you can catch yourself and actually eat? Homegrown beer? Dune-buggying in the endless sand dunes? Friends and family? Perhaps the cost/benefit analysis didn't stack up for having to put up with the environment here? Perhaps, like other expats that have since left Hong Kong, childrens ailments, (ailments that evaporated in the cleaner air and better living conditions of a more pristine environment), became too much of a worry here and any amount of money wouldn't keep them? Perhaps a combination of some or all of these factors?

One would think that, all things being equal, if Cathay was such a crash-hot job, guys like this wouldn't be pulling up sticks and heading back home. Never used to happen in the past, but it does appear to be happening more regularly these days.

I will concede that it is not all doom and gloom here and that the lifestyle can be exciting and fulfilling, but how do you put a dollar value on you and your family having to deal with the pollution, the obvious downsides, (family, friends, sports, hobbies), to living an expat existence in a strange land? It seems that some of those who are trying to do so are finding that the equation leans toward heading home.

[Frogman1484]

I reckon the DEFO did the right thing , at least now he will have Kevin Rudd's union boys for supprt. He might work harder at QF, but he also makes more dosh!!!

[Veruka Salt]

I'm not going to make peoples' decisions for them; I was simply going to address some of the points raised in your discussion as I have worked under both systems.

[Numero Crunchero]

A few months ago I compared 10 randomly chosen CX Oz based Airbus CN rosters for 56 days and applied QF pay rules. The result was an average salary of $260K with an average divisor of 181.8 Whilst I accept that QF Airbus guys are working less than that at the moment, 181.8 does seem in the ball park when compared to the 744's current 185 divisor, don't you think?

FYI, these CX guys that are on B scales earn about $205-210K.

So when you compare QF with CX, don't forget to put in the QF column 30% more pay for the same work, free airport parking, taxi allowance for many trips, better hotels, more allowances, Long Service Leave etc.

I have a few friends that have worked for both airlines...the consensus seems to be that CX has a (mostly) better cockpit environment.

So I would have no problems recommending QF over CX anyday. It pays better, you have career protection and you don't have to worry about exchange rates and what damage the pollution is doing to your children.

But being Numero Crunchero I should stick to numbers....so you can earn 30% less and take longer to command by working for CX, or you can work for QF! Clear enough???

[OBNO]

And a current Qantas Second Officer starts with CX as a DEFO Mel based early Dec. He believes his future prospects are brighter with CX.

[BScaler]

Could I ask you to post on behalf of this bloke to show his reasons for taking Cathay over QF?

The guy I referred to has listed a fairly comprehensive and broad-based set of reasons for knocking back a Cathay DEFO job, perhaps you could ask the guy you know who is taking Cathay in preference to Qantas to do the same. It'd be interesting.

And just one more little thing that may be of interest to him. I have heard anecdotally that some New Joiners with a start date in December, (ie. starting under the current CoS99 pay and conditions), are being given a letter saying 'Oh, wait, your course has been deferred until January 2008 - here are the new CoS08 for your reference, complete with reduced pay...'

You may want to give your bloke a 'heads-up' on that one. His future prospects may have dimmed somewhat before he even starts at Cathay if he were to get caught up in that little money-saving scheme.

[No-Wai]

Don't know the guy/situation but hear is some spit ballin':

1. He/She didn't want to be an QF SO for 8+ years?!
2. He/She was tired of calling the QF Captain "Captain/Sir"?! (or if they were particularly magnanimous, "Skipper").
3. He/She was concerned about murky Jetstar "divide & conquer" long term career plans?! (CX aren't the only experts on this subject)
4. He/She didn't want to pay 43% tax (soon to rise - change of Oz gov't)

etc... etc... Point is, everyone has their reasons. Only one thing is for sure in aviation, and that is the grass is always greener on the other side!:ok:

[Numero Crunchero]

I have had a few friends leave CX and join QF. They would all agree with you on point 2 - here at CX I only make my SOs call me "captain my captain" (from Dead Poets Society).

CX have almost no need to upgrade SOs for the forseeable future thanks to RA65, DEFO recruitment and reduced FO requirements of 3 man ULR. So things are not rosy here. I doubt they would stop upgrading them as it only takes SOs one month to learn how to make the bunk, eat the sandwiches and laugh at my jokes...the next 3 years are painfully spent waiting for a window seat!

Whilst you have your divide and conquer with jetstar, you have just ordered 188 a/c. So I am sure there will be upgrades somewhere....just like at CX where the separation of the freighter fleet has led to commands taking longer on pax fleet for those that don't want to 'enjoy' inferior pay and rostering conditions on the freighter.

I was looking at tax rates in Oz and they have come down significantly - on the first hundred you will pay about 30% flat - then it is marginal rates around 40% with both labour and liberal promising to lower rates/ increase thresholds. My tax rate works out to be about 20% flat so I am better off....but that equates to $10K in the first $100k earnt and $20K for the next hundred. And by the way, cost of living in HKG is astronomical.

I agree that the 'grass is greener in the other cockpit' syndrome is alive and well. What I do know from talking to my mates is that they will have commands around 13-14 years in QF. CX has to increase its current growth rate(compared to recent a/c announcement) to have commands at 13 years. If the current 'huge' a/c order is a sign of future growth rate then command will be about 17 years.

So what floats your boat - domicile, command, money? If you want Command and more money than CX, take EK. If you want domicile and money, take QF. The only advantage that CX appears to have over QF is cockpit culture. If you were based in Australia for your entire CX career(not possible now with RA65 soaking up all Aussie command basings) you would earn significantly more in QF - and get better hotels, allowances, car parking, etc etc etc. Also, do not underestimate the desirability of being able to pick and choose your base and a/c in seniority. Its almost impossible in CX to get either choice anymore.

One last point - I know in QF some guys choose to remain SOs thanks to their pay being higher due to roster choices. I am told the highest SOs earn $160K a year and have pretty easy lives. You won't earn that much as an FO in CX! I have been told that you can get on the 737 reasonably quickish but the workload goes up vs the pay. I guess some guys work to live and some guys live to fly 'shiny new jets'.

[BScaler]

Thanks Wai, always enjoy a little spit ballin'.

Apart from the tax issue that you mention, (which would,of course, apply to a Cathay New Joiner Aus Based DEFO anyway...), the other reasons cannot, surely, be game-breakers leading to change of employment.


Length of time as an SO at Qantas could be reduced if you were prepared to take a domestic FO position instead - depends on how much value you put on real stick and rudder time. But at least they do have the option there.
The whole 'calling the Captain "Captain" or "Sir"' thing appears part of the Qantas culture and has been ingrained for some time now. Surely a candidate looking for a job with Qantas would know of this feature of the flight deck culture there ahead of time and would have either dealt with it then or applied elsewhere if it was such a big deal to them. Can't see this particular issue leaping up at them out of the blue, blue.
And as for the Qantas 'murky Jetstar divide and conquer' long term plans. Well, leaving to ditch that scenario would be a little bit like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire if they were to come here to Cathay on that premise.Just spit ballin' Wai, but if what you posted were the real reasons for guys leaving Qantas to come to Cathay, then I figure you'd see reverse-flow before too long.

[Veruka Salt]

The claim that QF Capts have to be called "Captain" or "Sir" is one of the greatest urban myths to ever circulate. If you did this on the 737 or 767 you'd be laughed off the flightdeck.

Am amazed at how many CX guys actually believe this!!

I would generally regard the QF flightdeck culture as being equal to or better than CX. Certainly CRM issues such as involving the S/O in the operation is better at QF. . . . . partly as a result of the QF1 incident.

[Reeltime]

Salt is correct. For some reason this myth exists in cx, perpetuated by bitter expat aussies, most of whom came from australian regional airlines, and have a chip on their shoulder re their qf rejection letter.

This behaviour may still exist on the 400 in qf to some minor extent, but these days is very much in the minority.

So no capts in cx ever get addressed 'capt'?

[ACMS]

Well thanks...........I'm not an ex-regional bitter expat Aussie thanks all the same.
It is true that in recent times the new blood of Captains in Qf don't insist on being called "skipper", but it most definately was the case a while ago.
I get called a lot of things from my crew, Captain ain't one of em:bored:
The only people that call me Captain are the ground staff.

[No-Wai]

After 14 years in CX I'm not bothered by the whole CX vx QF thing. (Had the opportunity to go QF but thankfully never did) so here's a story I do know:

had the pleasure of flying with an ex-QF guy/girl who changed over from QF many moons ago. One of the stories he/she told was when he/she was checking into a hotel with Mr/Mrs QF "friendly CRM" captain. No rooms were ready so "Skipper" decides to piss & and moan about how important he/she is until Hotel finally provides room. Rest of crew patiently wait their turn until rooms are avail. The SO, as last flight crew standing who HASN'T made song & dance about short delay (all of about 20 minutes, boo-hoo) gets given the 'Hollywood suite' as reward for his/her manners & patience. No problem until check-out, when QF "Skipper" notices over-the-top gold braided key returned by said SO. "How come you got the 'Princess Diana' suite??? Who the **** do you think you are??? That should've been my room - why didn't you call me to tell me what room you had?!?" come the protests from the Skipper. Suffice to say, said SO was not shy in telling he/she that "maybe if you hadn't been such a pompous prick/prickette and carried on like you were the last effing King of Scotland you would have got the room"...

Can anyone guess the result? That's right, the captain got his/her head pulled-in and the "smartarse" SO got praised for their response... NOT.

As I said earlier - people looooove the "CX guys/gals are all aresholes" but they don't have a monopoly on the matter.

Come to think of it, maybe I will go QF. "Skipper" sounds awesome.:cool:

[OhSpareMe]

I always thought that "Skippers" drove fishing boats.

[willnotcomply]

I think it stems from the Catalina days.

[Mink]

"Skipper" is my dog's name.

[Millstream]

Pay or Park

Just a thought!

Plagiarised from the HKA DFO Resigns thread. Thanks Captaincannot :ok:

Milly

[waterski145]

ya' ll crack me up with the "briticism".
I have yet to start at Cx but surely I am amused by the "characters" flying those fantastic machines.

............ski

[BScaler]

It appears that there is life after being turned down for an upgrade at Cathay - be it the QL upgrade check to become a 'full' FO, or Command upgrade.

That life has turned out to be Emirates for some.

One candidate who recently failed a Cathay Command Course has turned to Emirates - he has a start date in March and has been told he'll probably have an A380 Command there in a few years.

Anecdotally, I know of many JFOs who, having 'failed' a QL, (now they wouldn't simply be held back just because they still have a useable FO on the roster and it saves the Company around $100,000 for each candidate they knock back would they...?!), are considering Emirates as well.

Little wonder. Food for thought for those who are considering whether Cathay really is the Holy Grail of Airline jobs.

[Kitsune]

What has happened to 'The Management'? Not posted sideways and down to KA by any chance?:}

[Fly747]

Millstream. Over at KA they seem to be choosing PARK.
4th 400 BCF no crew, so park.
2 x A330 parked up from Jan because of leavers to Air China. No more command courses until April.
I'm sure NC can work out what it must be costing them.

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Its all good news these days. Happy flying folks.

[willnotcomply]

Back to the point. How many have left in recent times? Where are they going?

[Frogman1484]

5 x fo's
1x Tiger (BNE based FO figured no command on base possible)
3x Own Airline
1X QF (SYD based DEFO figured no command on base possible)

Now there is news of 1x to EK if this is true then it is 6 in one month.

Not bad considering that the job down under have not come on line yet.

Spoke to 2 based Fo's and apparently the penny has dropped about the shortage of Capt bases for the future so they are both waiting for the VB jobs to come on line.

The latest from Crew Control was a session of begging a sic FO to get better soon as their manning levels were critical...(Maybe now PW could do some relief...would like to see NR as my second officer:ok:

[Cider30]

One FO to Airtran.

[Lowkoon]

And 2 Captains to KA! :}

[Frogman1484]

and about 40+ freighter dudes :D

[asianeagle]

Can't be true, my seniority number has not changed in over a year, all must be well????:}

But seriously, anybody know what the excuse is for not updating the seniority list? :rolleyes:

[Millstream]

Apparently an A Scale Captain, on over time, recently had to act as a safety pilot.

I do hope this is coming out of what is left of PW's bonus.

Milly

[GANKER]

Im based and the truth of the matter is once you see life back in your home domicile you realise all the crap that goes with the job in Hk is not really worth it!
You only live one life, perhaps spending it eating the fish curry for the millionth time across the pacific and complaining about it, isnt what you had in mind for a 30 yr+ career.
Only you can change it!
Money aint everything , especially when they start cutting it!
:)

[Go Right Ahead]

Im puzzled on how you guys figure the salary is better at EK. I have checked the site and converted to AUD and it seems CX is far better.(Currently)
Yes command is quicker in EK but i didnt factor in the salary for been an FO for at least 3yrs(at earliest). I can only assume you guys have done the calculation on 15yrs or so. Please enlighten me.
Having said that, I was very keen on the DEFO Oz Base but since thyey have introduced the pay cut in JAN 08, I have decided not to send my CV until conditions improve. Also another consideration is command possibly 13+yrs, although not confirmed but certainly food for thought.
Slightly off the topic, does anyone know if Korean offer upgrade and if so, how long can one expect to be in the right seat?:confused:

[555orange]

I heard if hired as FO at Korean...it is an FO contract. NO UPGRADE program at this time. Can anyone back this up?

[JLQ]

Two SO's have resigned in the past couple of weeks, both less than 3 months in the company.

[Gone Down]

To go where? (the S/O's)

[Penske]

Another US freighter FO just quit after 1 year with CX. Going to AirTran of all places.

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

Air Tran?

HAHAHAAHAHAHAH

now that's a bad move.

[Numero Crunchero]

Go right ahead,
you need to take 16% off CX due tax (if HKG based). You need to add in EK HDP which is worth much more than CX HDP. You need to take into account ERP which is 7.5% of salary at the moment. Its more the 'area under the curve' rather than comparing position for position. EG, a CN1 in CX earns more but by the time he gets that position the guy in EK is on his 10th increment which puts him ahead pre tax let alone post tax. Look for some posts I have put on this over the last couple of months. I can tell you that after 10 years you are over 30% better off in EK (after tax dollars). Command time in CX is likely to be 13-15 years unless they start seriously ordering a/c. Given current CX orders command will be closer to 15 years.

[cxpileit]

I can't believe that anyone would think less of a person who would choose to go to AirTran. I'm certain that he was fed up with the anti-american attitude, lack of respect, and poor training. Things may change here over the long haul, but most people want to keep their dignity when they go to work. I'm certain the culture at AirTran is what this person would prefer. Who care what airframe a person flies, there is more to life than the weight of your aircraft.

Good luck to all those that seek to take another direction. For many, the expectation they came with did not materialize. aka...bait and switch.

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

Change? Nothing will change except for your CoS, mate!

As for AirTran, it's the next best thing to quitting aviation completely.

[cxpileit]

My Cos will stay the same, as I to plan to leave before I'm subject to another.

As to your arrogance about AirTran, or anyone else with whom you feel is beneath you, just another example of why we leave.

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

So you're going to AirTran, that's cool (for you). Don't get so uptight about it. Heck people even put down United these days. :rolleyes:

[MAX]

Gone Down,

One of the S/O's couldnt stand the pollution so just left.

MAX:cool:

[Gone Down]

Thanks for the reply MAX, interesting times indeed.

[BScaler]

It's unconscionable to suggest that junior officers here at Cathay consider staying when they are faced with;

possible significant increased time to command as a result of an increased retirement age,
a paltry pay increase after six tears of no pay rise, and
continuing opportunities elsewhere where demand has had an actual effect on remuneration.I wonder how many junior officers arriving here at Cathay after January 2008 on new Conditions of Service, (read: lesser pay than the bloke that joined in December...), will not bother to look elsewhere for opportunities with their shiny new type-ratings.

It's a sad commentary, but it makes sense to leap earlier than later. The snowball that started rolling at Dragonair looks like picking up some more snow from Cathay on it's way down the hill.

[MinimaNoContact]

I wonder how many junior officers arriving here at Cathay after January 2008 on new Conditions of Service, (read: lesser pay than the bloke that joined in December

What exactly is the diffence in pay between those joining in Dec vs. Jan?

[BScaler]

MinimaNoContact, and anyone else that is interested...

The Company will be paying New Joiners from January 2008 onwards, a unified pay scale under CoS08 that works like this:

The Company contends that the 'historical' recruiting streams have been as an SO or as a direct-entry Freighter FO. But they want to hire direct-entry Passenger FOs that are currently paid a higher salary. Naturally they don't want to have to pay for something they could possibly get away with not paying for...

So the cunning plan they have come up with is that they have produced an amalgamation, of sorts, of the SO and Freighter FO salaries, and applied this salary scale to all direct-entry FOs joining after January 2008!!

All direct-entry FOs joining the Company in future will be obligated to fly both the Freighter and Passenger aircraft in Cathay's inventory - something that is not necessarily the case today. (At present, freighter pilots fly freighter aircraft and passenger pilots fly passenger aircraft. Passenger pilots can be asked to fly freighter patterns but not forced to).

The rationale here is that the Company asserts that new joining pilots would naturally like to fly Passenger aircraft, and tossing the Freighter into the mix would allow for a greater variety of flying for the lucky individual.

However, the New Joiner will be flying both Freighter and Passenger aircraft for less than what aircrew with an identical rank flying Passenger aircraft are paid today. A minor and irrelevant point, the Company would say...

New Joiners have joined the Company as direct-entry Passenger pilots in the past - there is a historical precedent for this, but it is one which the Company and the AOA appear to be ignoring.

I contend that if the Company want Passenger fleet aircrew, (under the system that they themselves set up many years ago when they split the Freighter from the Passenger fleet to save them money), then they should pay Passenger fleet pay. If the Company wish to once again amalgamate the Passenger and Freighter fleets, then they should do so at the highest common denominator, not the least.

Simple.

The Company obviously see differently, (they don't want to pay more than they absolutely have to for their labour), and for some unknown reason, the AOA leadership, completely neglecting to represent their future colleagues on this issue, have acquiesced to this arrangement.

As for specific comparisons between pay scales, perhaps Numero Crunchero could do what he does best...

[tyro330]

COS 08 Offers a London based DEFO less money than I recieved to do that job as a B scale DEFO on joining on the base in the mid 90ies. My starting pay represented a considerable pay rise over my military salary, and I was happy to take the job. COS 08 would today be a significant pay cut. Looking around I dont see life getting cheaper. A point to bear in mind for any new applicants.

[markontop]

Congrats to the DPA. May I say we should watch and learn. Excellent, everyone in KA now has a better package than CX. The mouse that roared vs the lion that wimpered. Maybe the GC should talk some more.

[BScaler]

I don't know how many of you have noticed the Pprune banners that advertise on this site - it is a little ironic that they state 'Vietnam Airlines Payrise' and 'Korean Air Payrise' in order to attract aircrew, and here we are at Cathay contemplating an imposed payrise that doesn't even compensate for the last year's CPI increase, let alone the previous 6 years!

And to rub salt in the wound, we 'got' it for acquiescing to the hiring of direct-entry Passenger FOs on lesser CoS, and allowing the Company unfettered retirement age increase to 65 years.

I'm sure it sounds like a really fair deal to the Company...

No wonder junior guys are looking a little closer at those banners!

[MinimaNoContact]

Is there any difference in pay for DESO new joiners Dec Vs. Jan? HK base?

[missingblade]

As far as I am aware SO pay is the same - however you will not have a little thing called BYPASS PAY in your contract.......which I have a little suspicion will become a BIG issue soon...

[slowandsteady]

What is Bypass pay?
Also, what is AOA?

Sorry - I'm obviously a little new to the Fragrant Harbour section.

Thanks!

[Numero Crunchero]

No need to quote the figures as someone else has...bottom line is that an Aussie joining in Dec07 will earn over $100K more than one joining in Jan08 over the first few years.

For an SO joining in HKG your pay is the same(3% increase in Jan). Some things for a potential SO joiner to consider.

RA65 will add 3-5 years to command time....and obviously also delay the need to have you upgraded to FO. 3man crewing, which we will have Jan09, will give CX a sudden surplus of FOs - maybe 200-300. So again, even less need to upgrade SOs.

Bypass pay is paid to SOs who are 'assessed' if there are DEFOs junior to them and/or pilots extended past RA55. The latter reason only applies to pilots who join prior to 1/1/08.

Five years from now we are likely to have up to 300 'extended' captains. That means up to 300 HKG based FOs, on CoS99, will get bypass pay. The only SOs who will get it are those assessed...which apparently happens just a few months before upgrade.

So if you aren't in CX now don't worry about bypass pay as it won't affect you! If you are based a year from now, don't worry about bypass pay as it won't affect you....CX likes to keep things simple!

[Oval3Holer]

An SO currently in line training said that three (3) of the SOs who joined with him, or right around him, have already resigned. To where, he didn't know.

[Numero Crunchero]

Apparently some of you do want the exact numbers. The following does NOT include PF or HDP. Add 15.5% of base figure for PF and 5%ish for HDP. UFO = 2008 salary for joiners 1/1/08 onwards.

Aus
CoS99 $122,352
UFO $92,664


UK(EUR)
CoS 99 £59,484
UFO £45,036

US
CoS99 $103,440
UFO $73,440

Note, in the US CX has been recruiting on the freighter fleet in the past. The salary for that is $65,412(2008). There will be no more freighter recruitment in future.

[Oval3Holer]

What about the supposed direct recruitment to 777 FO, both in JFK and in YYZ?

[Numero Crunchero]

I missed the canadian pay - sincere apologies to my polite brethren;-)

CoS99 $114,180
UFO $86,472

So to answer your question...JFK $73,440 USD, YYZ $86,472 loonies.

[Oval3Holer]

NC, sorry for the misunderstanding, but thanks for the info...

My question was, "On what basis is CX recruiting DEFOs into YYZ and JFK when there are current CX pilots wanting (and who have not been offered) those positions?"

Seems this little abrogation of our contract isn't getting much attention!

[Numero Crunchero]

Thats a good question! The bases should be offered in seniority. How they get around it most of the time is saying 'sorry, you are on bus/400 and all the 2008+2009 jokers have already been allocated so no conversion for you'. If you are not on type then you are ineligible for the basing.

[Oval3Holer]

True, but there are numerous 777 FOs who want a 777 FO slot in YYZ or JFK. How CX can hire DEFOs into these slots when current CX 777 FOs want them is beyond me... and the AOA is doing nothing about it!

[The Management]

Have you figured it out yet? We do what we want, when we want. We have our own interpretation of the rules and contracts.

Let me spell it out for the dim-witted amongst us. The present 777 F/O’s in Hong Kong will get an opportunity to bid for 18 base positions. Anyone over that amount will not get a base position because we will only release 18. Don’t get me wrong, there are many more positions available but we will simply not release them. We are saving them for DEFO’s hired on a base.

If you feel disadvantaged by this, we don't care. Talk to the GMA or take us to court. If you feel that strongly, leave. There are many more to take your place.

We may open some slots in JFK next year but some will have to be reserved for DEFO’s 777-300ER’s, our new shiny jet.

You see, we are untouchable!

To my bonus.

The Management

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

Have you figured it out yet? We do what we want, when we want. We have our own interpretation of the rules and contracts.

Let me spell it out for the dim-witted amongst us. The present 777 F/O’s in Hong Kong will get an opportunity to bid for 18 base positions. Anyone over that amount will not get a base position because we will only release 18. Don’t get me wrong, there are many more positions available but we will simply not release them. We are saving them for DEFO’s hired on a base.

If you feel disadvantaged by this, we don't care. Talk to the GMA or take us to court. If you feel that strongly, leave. There are many more to take your place.

We may open some slots in JFK next year but some will have to be reserved for DEFO’s 777-300ER’s, our new shiny jet.

You see, we are untouchable!

To my bonus.

The Management



Looks like it's time for another RECRUITMENT BAN...We all remember how effective the last one was!!

:}:}:}:}

[BScaler]

Qantas have just announced another increase in it's forecast profit for the year by a further 10%. It will be a bumper year for QF, and by extension, it should also be a bumper year for fellow OneWorld partner Cathay. Watch for further profit forecasts from Cathay.

Despite this happy state of affairs and disregarding the tight market worldwide for pilots, Cathay still seek to recruit New Joiner aircrew from 2008 onwards on less pay than that offered to their ccounterparts for the same job in 2007. Unbelievable but true.

Maybe this thread should be changed from 'How many are leaving CX?' to 'How many are actually joining CX?'

And perhaps a related thread could be 'How many are joining CX and then leaving once they realise that the grass this side of the fence is a little parched?' I know of at least one guy who was almost checked out to line after taking a direct-entry FO slot based in SYD. He decided he'd take a Qantas SO slot in preference. Bear in mind that this individual was recruited on the 2007 deal, not the inferior deal that New Joiners will be presented with in 2008. How much did that cost the Company in wasted training? How does the Company expect to recruit pilots on less pay than this guy kissed off?

In times gone by, the Company used to publicise the names of those retiring or leaving the Company, but for some years now it has failed to do so. Forums such as this are the only avenue open to publication of those who have left.

In my opinion, once the pendulum has swung through a certain arc, it may be impossible to stop the momentum. Measures that the Company may take in future to arrest the outflow may be too late in coming.

Some believe that even the payrise given to our Dragon colleagues will not stem the flow now that the levee has been breached - there are many other fundamental issues yet to be addressed.

Will the same happen at Cathay?

[ashcroft79]

Hey guys I've been looking around this website for some time and I've been noticing that many of you are talking about leaving cathay. I've been thinking of applying, can any of you give me some insight as to how things are over there.

[Numero Crunchero]

Well, a guy that came from EUR and joined as an SO 8months ago is leaving next month. He said that he really enjoys HKG(he is single) but RA65, less basing opportunities, DEFOs and resultant delay in upgrades to both window seats made him reconsider. So he is going back to his old job. As he said, its not perfect there but its better than CX and he won't look over the fence again wondering if that grass is greener or just 'made in china' astroturf;-)

Cathay acts like a career airline and pays like a post 9-11 legacy carrier. Issues that my american amigos mention to me frequently;
-moving career goalposts - time to command moving beyond 13+ years
-carrot of early freighter command is mostly illusory
-hoops required to 'jump through' for command keep multilplying
-CX culture is most definitely not easy for those from more relaxed environments - thing brad pitts puckerhole in a prison shower - "toight"
-no post retirement fringe benefits such as medical

Over a decade ago CX had a reputation for being a career airline that had fast commands and good pay. Back then you never heard of anyone leaving CX as everyone left other airlines to come here. I have never seen so many people leave and I have never seen morale so low. If you are seriously considering CX talk to some of your peers to get a good idea of how things are now.
merry xmas

[Millstream]

NC

Right as usual.

The only reasons people ever left in the past, were something to do with personal circumstance - families/health etc. Back then CX was a proper career airline, like United, or Qantas or BA. People didn't leave. Almost unheard of.

They do now. Ground school the other day; one person missing; turned out he had resigned. That's when the penny dropped for me.:eek:

They are short of FOs, of that, there is no doubt. People at last are voting with their feet - either not walking to the interview or walking back out the door almost as soon as they arrive. Even FOs with significant seniority are leaving.

The rest of us are shackled by seniority. The market will not look after us so quickly. If we want things to change, we need to look after ourselves.

Park or Pay

Milly

[cpdude]

I know of a junior WJ pilot that just turned down an SO course for Dec.

They would rather be at a happy LCC than a unhappy major with decreasing conditions and poor relations.

Can you blame them?

CX...wake up before it's too late!:*

[BScaler]

Leaving
Just heard of a guy who has had two years in the Company and in the pipeline for a Jetstar job. He'll be out of here as soon as he gets the nod.

It is easier for junior guys to leave the Company with all the opportunities out there and with less time invested in the seniority system.

I am wondering how many of those who were originally scheduled to join Cathay as DEFO's on a base in December 2007, that have now had their joining date shifted into 2008 due to 'changes to training schedules', will feel inclined to stay once they realise that they will be joining the Company under CoS08, (ie. on substantially less money than originally thought under the CoS99 salary scales).

Perhaps it will be worth a couple of months stay in the Headland to get the type-rating before shooting through to sunnier, more rewarding, and less polluted climes. The Company must be allowing for some attrition here.

Joining
I also just heard, (probably old news to some of you...), that some of the latest to join the Cathay, are a group of Dragon Cadet SOs who cannot be accommodated for training at our sister airline!

Training
Perhaps this is the reason that the Cathay Airbus Fleet Office are advertising for more check and trainers - as opposed to the official line put out there that they have received authorisation to employ more training staff to 'spread the load around'...! I doubt if the check and training roster will get any better, but the workload in having to train our sister airline's almost ab-initio trainees will certainly increase.

It has to be stated at this time, that a B-Scale CN taking a training position will be on approximately 13% less pay than a comparable A-Scale line CN is at present.

Should the B-Scaler reach the dizzy heights of a check position, then they would still be on less money than a line A-Scale CN, despite being endowed with the additional responsibility of checking that same individual!

(This comparison takes only the basic remuneration into account, and not the provident fund, travel fund, better retirement travel benefits, medical benefits, dental benefits, or share options that form other trimmings A-Scalers are or have been entitled to. NC, feel free to leap right in here.)

One could fail to see the relative attraction of the training job for a B-Scaler if one were to take the position purely for monetary reward.

[Frogman1484]

Why would anyone ever want to become a trainer at CX????

Hom many years is it now that they were going to fix the training package...never going to happen!!!!

They lie lie lie.

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

Why would anyone ever want to become a trainer at CX????


apparently it's worth it to Jesper!

[natops]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/78116

[Go Right Ahead]

BScaler, I agree with you. As much as I was keen to join CX but with these new conditions, I am staying put until they decided to review their offer. Im not the only one either, i know half a dozen guys personally who were all on the verge of joining CX, all with minimum 2500hrs wide-body and with internaltional long haul ops. They all pulled the plug on their application due to this new CofS08 offer.
Anyway will keep an ear to the ground and see if conditions improve. Otherwise a little birdy told me that the MIDDLE EAST airlines are about to increase salary again to attract qualified guys. Seems the penny has dropped and realising a/c will be grounded they are working on new packages. Anyway just a rumour but seems plausible and mate already working in EK seems to be a reliable source.

Cheers:D

[Katanaman]

I recently turned down the 744. My main concern was the lack of roster clarification. The terms & conditions are secondary to me (but they have obviously been eroded), but when a huge airline like Cathay cannot even commit itself to some predictable and meaningful roster, places like Easyjet win hands down.
I always wanted to fly long haul with a successful world airline, but history and an impressive corporate building in HK, was not enough to distract me from what is essentially a rubbish offer.
I worked for many years to get to my current position with 6000hrs and I will not throw it away on a look / see kind of option. I hope Cathay wake up soon, because people are getting very wise.

[DexyDogg]

XCX-SOHAPPY, regardless of whether you are correct or not, mentioning a mates name on a rumour forum is just off-side. Use their thread name, if you must. I understand the point you are trying to make, but there are many others that have done the same thing (although mentioning their names on this forum isn't exactly cool either).

If you have a problem with him, bring it up personally. Do something proactive; if you are doing something, feel free to shed some light on the subject. Your comment doesn't help any, trust me. Not too professional, don't you think?

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

XCX-SOHAPPY, regardless of whether you are correct or not, mentioning a mates name on a rumour forum is just off-side. Use their thread name, if you must. I understand the point you are trying to make, but there are many others that have done the same thing (although mentioning their names on this forum isn't exactly cool either).

chill out cowboy!

The fact that he was hired on at CX with 1000 hours of GA experience at age 24 and it only took a few years before he was heard saying how he was unhappy with CX's hirings of new "young punks" should tell you what type of trainer he will be.

Brace yerselves 777 boys and girls.

[HeavyWrenchFlyer]

Cathay acts like a career airline and pays like a post 9-11 legacy carrier. Issues that my american amigos mention to me frequently;
-moving career goalposts - time to command moving beyond 13+ years
-carrot of early freighter command is mostly illusory
-hoops required to 'jump through' for command keep multilplying
-CX culture is most definitely not easy for those from more relaxed environments - thing brad pitts puckerhole in a prison shower - "toight"
-no post retirement fringe benefits such as medical

Well put together, you pretty much covered all the reasons why my new goal is to slip out of here below the 1 year mark. I would add that insult of a pay raise as well. :cool:

[DexyDogg]

I have to say that, although I think that mentioning names on a public forum is cowardice, the point that BScaler was making (and what brought on XCX's comment) is worth thinking about.

As a pilot group, we seem to give everything away. It could (and I am sure will) be argued that the training area is no different. It's great to have good guys in training, but with everyone lining up for a training position under the current situation, it is no surprise that we cannot negotiate a better deal.

Consider how the cabin crew fought hard for some medical issues that would seemingly have cost no more than 1,000 HK each per year. Yet pilots quietly take much harsher and deeper cuts. Good on the cabin crew; too bad we can't protect our profession with such solidarity (or even officially show the cabin crew our support...).

That being said, using a name on a public forum under any situation (especially while the rest of us remain anonymous) is pretty sad.

[Humber10]

as usual, this post seems to be a little off the subject..... so how many are leaving?

[DexyDogg]

Sorry, Humber10. I'm done now.

Heard of an Airbus F/O who is going to EK.

Know of many who have been receiving calls from VB, but how many are serious... hard to say.

[hawkeye]

Spoke to one 400 FO yesterday who is waiting for VB. Another 400 FO is on his way as soon as the offer he is awaiting arrives. First one is under one year service.The other is over. A third one has just had a successful interview for a job in Europe. His resignation is imminent. By the time management realise that the tipping point has arrived it will be too late. Not only will we not have enough crew to fly the programme, we will not be able to get them. The word is out that CX is not a great deal anymore. There is dry rot within the company. It spreads from crew through to Crew Control who are overwhelmed with the task. The paint job may look good but the core is rotting away.
What has happened to bring CX to the position where folk are leaving us for LCCs and charter jet operators?

[willnotcomply]

Simple. Management have adopted a LCC/charter mentality in dealing with crew and the broader operation. We have succumbed to their prolonged fear and intimidation campaign. Too much talk and no action. I don't see our lot improving. We have ourselves to blame. Put yourself in the management shoes. Why offer us a superior deal? They know that we'll just roll over and take it up the a$$ everytime. History has proven that in CX. Alot can be learnt from our KA colleagues in recent times. I really do admire the guys that have left for greener pastures. A courageous move. I wish them all well.

[tbaylx]

For many of us any interest in working for Cathay was removed by what happened to the 49'ers....not really interested in being part of a workforce that gets treated that way regardless of who was right or wrong. It's seems to me as an outsider that things have gone downhill there since that time.

As a potential applicant heres what would discourage me from even applying.

1- a fairly negative management/workforce relationship
2- a bit of an overkill type of interview process
3- consistent rumours of a negative training environment
4- constantly degrading pay scales...instead of increases to keep up with cost of living they keep offering lower CoS
5- worries about quality of life in HK with regards to crowding and pollution

And before all the flames come roaring my way, no i never applied, and yes it's possible that i wouldn't have passed selection if i had. The point is due to all of that i wasn't even interested in applying at the end of the day. Some or all of he above may not be true, but that's the reputation Cathay has to alot of potential experienced recruits right now.

[Bwatchful]

According to a person I know in HR, recruitment has not slowed to any appreciable degree given the current worldwide shortage of pilots. There are many qualified pilots applying for flying positions with CX, all they have to do is cherry-pick the ones they want. FTA is busy.

[boofta]

Of course recruitment has not slowed, there were 85 resignations
for 2007, from a person I know in management.
Cathay are showing people the door when they present their
resignations- rather than letting them serve out their notice.
It seems its cheaper to pay 3 months salary than have a rotten
apple in the basket bad mouthing the Firm.
Cathay always paid a premium for pilots, what the end result
will be is a constant flow of trainees.

[Cider30]

Of course recruitment has not slowed, there were 85 resignations
for 2007, from a person I know in management.

I wonder what the training cost of those 85 pilots were. I know CX treats training as a "no cost item" but surely som bean counter must be watching this.

Numero Crunchero, do you have any details to share with us on this subject.

Just of the top of my head:
B744 FO.
3 month salary (training without flying revenue sorties) 18000 USD
Allowances for those 3 months 9000 USD
About 100 overnights at the Headland @ 500 HKD 6400 USD
Ground instruction 1000 USD
~14 sims (56 hours, 2 pilots. 28 hours each @ 500 USD) 14000 USD
Base training 13500 USD
Check/Training captain salaries, 30 sectors ~ 1 month
flying for a training captain. 10% of salary 2000 USD
P fund contributions 2800 USD
Medical benefits etc, estim. 1500 USD

Total 68200 USD

85 resignations 5797000 USD

As mentioned it is off the top of my head, somebody out there with better info ?

Cider

[Oval3Holer]

I just learned of two -400FOs who are quitting. Both are passenger FOs. One has about 5 years with CX; the other, around 7 or so. One's going to see what Brown can do for him. The other, to a Japanese cargo outfit (contract job)...

Pretty sad state of affairs when CX is seeing guys leaving for contract jobs...

[Westcoastcapt]

Gentlemen,

It is time to sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. The simple reality is that the very senior management have absolutely no idea as to the present state of their workforce. Just have a look at the communications that are being presented on intracx.

Take for example the recent spat with the FAU and local staff regarding the prospective medical changes. CX stated unequivocally, that they were going to carry out these changes regardless of the feedback of the members. After the threat of FAU action and the subsequent involvement of the Labour Dept, they have been rescinded in the short term. Communications state that CX is pleased with the change. Heard from a very senior ISM that someone now has a new job. Oh Oh

Or, the recent congratulations to everyone for their hard work and the provision of the 13th month. All the based crews and outport staff don't receive this benefit, but I guess no one told the communications staff.

Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus and his name is attrition and yes, it is really hurting. Someone was advised by CC recently that they were "critically short of crews". And Crew Contollers, I understand. A number of FO's I have flown with stated openly, that they are actively looking. They have realised their pay and conditions are similar to companies in their home countries. Moreover, the other local carriers are even offering better pay and benefits to our locally employed pilots.

Gents, CX have sh....t themselves, are sitting in it and haven't a clue what to do. They are choking on the very contracts they imposed in the first place. When was the last time you heard the term "market forces"? They are of course talking tough, but are really worried about legal action in the based ports given the recent Crofts case in the UK. Imagine if the imposed contracts of 99, where we lost our 13th month, were ruled illegal in a basing jurisdiction. Just think, 9 months of back pay with interest. Why do you think it has taken so long to carry out the onshoring? Yes, they are worried.

It is going to get very interesting very soon and you will have a front row seat. Enjoy!

[El Lobo Solo]

An FO got hired to fly SPITFIRES? Wow, that's not something you hear every day.

So, if one were to get a job as an SO or FO, at what point can you expect to have to relocate family to HKG? I never got the impression that it was mandatory with all the bases around the world and many schedules look commutable from Australasia.

And, even after reading all these threads, I still don't know what the #1 reason for people leaving might be. The new CoS08? Rostering? QOL? Upgrade times? Is there a single point that is pushing people out more than the others, or is it a bunch of things?

Thanks.
ELS

[sisyphos]

now the european base is affected as well : Sterling lowest to the Euro, 2008 outlook dim. ( 1.35 and falling..) That is a pay cut of more than 10% so far in 2007. But wait, hey, thanks for that 2.5% rise..:mad::mad::mad:

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

............yo,........ the management...........here's to your bonus.......:E