Twin/Decent Single for Angelfight in BNE area

[overhere]

Hi,

Am looking for a twin or good condition single to conduct Angel Flights in the Brisbane area, does anyone have/know of one that offers reduced rates (due to the includive fuel/airways charges).

Thanks!

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

How does that work?

Do you hire the aircraft, and then donate that aircraft hire to Angelflight?

I know of people using their own aircraft for Angelflights but I have never come across someone hiring an aircraft for use on Angelflights.

Dr :8

[NOtimTAMs]

Own aircraft, hired aircraft - no difference for the Angelflights, FTDK. One donates one's time and aircraft costs because one loves flying, wants to help someone and wishes be a good ambassador for GA. Ain't no tax deductibility, though.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Would it not be better from a GA point of view to donate tax deductable $$$ so that Angelflight could engage the services of a charter company to get the job done?

Dr :8

[gassed budgie]

Would it not be better from a GA point of view to donate tax deductable $$$ so that Angelflight could engage the services of a charter company to get the job done?

I often wonder about that myself. Or perhaps dontate the $$ towards a seat on the local RPT service (if it's suitable that is). I've seen some Angel flights done in dubious looking aircraft, with an even more dubious looking pilot sitting up front in the lefthand seat in weather conditions that one could only describe at best as 'marginal'. Not GA at it's best.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"So FTDK, got a charter operator in mind they can use???"

I assume that comment is meant to insinuate that I have a vested interest in some charter operation! Not true! ..... but I do have a long standing interest in the general viability of GA. I think that Angel Flight takes some of the bread and butter work away from GA, under the guise of a charitable pursuit.

"Personally I think it's a great idea,"

.... and because we live in the democracy of Qzland, you are prefectly entitled to hold that opinion, just as I am entitled to hold and voice a contrary opinion.

"... and most guys are quite experienced..."

Hmmm ..... compared with what? Some are clearly highly experienced, others far less so. There is also some very nice machinery made available .... and some that I would not allow a member of my family to fly in.

"have we bothered to go and have a look and see who some of them might be?"

I assume this is the collective "we", and yes, we have!

Like many things, its not the top end that is of concern, its the bottom end!

Are the punters fully informed as to the recognised level of safety associated with the pilot/aircraft combination that is being offered to them? Or rather, is it that they gratefully accept the assisitance at a time of significant stress, without fully comprehending what they are accepting?

For the record, I am not part of Angel Flight. I rarely fly other than on an IFR flightplan. I am well qualified, experienced and current, and my aeroplane is fully certified and maintained at the highest level possible with considerable multiple redundancy capability apart from the engine. However, there is a risk associated with that type of flying, particularly in relation to SE operations. I am happy to manage that risk but do not feel that I should ask the public to also accept that risk in an uninformed manner.

Dr :8

[corowacomet]

Firstly: I do not for a second doubt their intentions.
However, I have to agree with the good Doctor on this one. Some of the pilots have a wealth of experience and are no doubt well suited to the role at AngelFlight. On the other hand others seem to be 'enthusiasts' who are probably quite competent private pilots but should not be flying uninformed pax around, especially so when children are involved. I think Forky's comment about accepting assistance at a time of great stress is very prescient.
By the way what are the minimum experience requirements? Some of the pilots appear to have <500hrs and perhaps much more dangerously don't appear to fly that frequently.
Lastly: I do not for a second doubt their intentions.
The Comet.:hmm:

[Islander Jock]

Overhere,
You should ask any potential hirer for a dry rate for their aircraft as you will recieve 100% fuel reimbursement for your avgas usage on the flight.

Sad to see a 180deg turn creeping into the PPRUNE fraternity regarding attitude and support to Angel Flight.

As for commercial vs pvt ops being the best option to achieve this outcome I guess you could argue endlessly about the pros and cons. It should be pointed out however that there is absolutely no pressure whatsoever to conduct a flight when any doubt about aircraft or weather suitability arise. We all know that many charter operators will push the limits where the pvt pilot will tend to be more cautious. I had to pull out recently with 24hrs notice when the forecast in the lower south west was absolute crap. No problem from Angel Flight, they just booked the guy on a commercial flight. But that meant a road journey from his home town to the airport and having to travel when the schedule dictated.

If you go to the Angelflight webpage and have a look at the pilot profiles you will see that experience levels will stack up quite nicely compared to your 200hr cpl with his first job. A minimum of 250hrs command rpt COMMAND, is required before being able to fly PIC on an Angel Flight mission.

The number of missions flown and testimonials from those people helped by Angel Flight speaks for itself.

[corowacomet]

I know at first glance having a requirement of at least 250hrs PiC seems better than a 250hr TT CPL but a CPL holder would have at least gained those hours under a structured regime. A private pilot on the other hand does the forty or fifty hours for the licence and then is free to pick up bad habits all by themselves.
Sorry for the negative attitude Islander, its just that I can imagine the field day the press would have on GA if there was an incident/accident.:{ That said though I understand it has been around for a long time so perhaps I don't have a clue! Interesting debate about its merits though:ok:.
The Comet.

[corowacomet]

I agree with you on both counts! There are some very ordinary CPLs out there and yes we should probably leave it at that before this turns into the usual PPRUNE "discussion"!
On another note though how many sectors/missions/runs does Angel Flight do each year in Oz? The US version seems very well set up but I must admit total ignorance of the scale of the Australian setup.
The Comet.

[Islander Jock]

CC,
not sure how many a year but the mission billboard is now up to 2305 with most missions being return flights. So you could safely say that well over 4500 flights have so far taken place in Australia.

The team of mission coordinators in Brisbane do a great job in putting it all together.

[Islander Jock]

:D:D:D:D
well said Wheeler.

Well if I am going to give up Angel Flight because as the Dr puts it, I am putting people at risk by not informing them of the "recognised level of safety", perhaps I might also pull out of volunteer firefighting. God forbid that I am doing anything dangerous that can be better performed by professionals.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Hmmmmm, seem to have hit a bit of a raw nerve here!

We do like our sacred cows don't we!

Dr :8

[corowacomet]

That was a grade A spray wheeler. I thought I made it clear that I wasn’t having a go at Angel Flight but obviously it was a little subtle for you mate. You simply had a quick read and then went into rant mode.
'Some of the pilots appear to have <500hrs and perhaps much more dangerously don't appear to fly that frequently."
You got the facts on that? Nah? no worries, why let the facts get in the way of a good smear!

Smear? Er..not quite.

“.....X has been flying since 1974 and holds an unrestricted Private Pilot Licence with a Night VFR rating. He also holds New Zealand and USA licences. In the last 30 years X has accumulated over 3500 hrs traveling all over Australia....”
2 hours per week for 30 odd years.
“.....I learnt to fly in 1998 and purchased a Cessna 182 in 1999. During mid 2007 I will pass 1000 hours....”
2 hours per week for 9 years.
“.....have been flying since 1993. I have a NVFR rating with over 1100 logged flight time....”
1.5 hours per week for 14 years.
“.....I have been flying since 1977 and have clocked up about 1300 hours,.....”
0.8 hours per week for 30 years.
“....Since recommencing flying activities in 1999 X has flown over 300 hours and completed a NVFR rating.....”
0.7 hours per week over 8 years.
Etc, etc, etc.
This was just from the first quarter of the page of Angel Flight pilots. In between this there are pilots who have more logbooks than these guys have hours and operate some impressive bits of kit. No one in their right mind however would argue that the above is an acceptable level of recency.

“.....Just imagine having to make weekly drives from (say) Bourke to Sydney with a possibly terminally ill kid - a couple of hours in a plane is a godsend to many such folk.....”
I agree. The problem with that assertion of course is that REX flights depart Bourke for Sydney twice a day and the ticket price is approx $300. The twin or single AVGAS/AVTUR bill for the same trip? Er...more, much more. Having said that there is no doubt there are some areas that lack RPT for whom Angel Flight really would be a godsend. The idea though that something is beyond reproach because it is a charity or a “good cause” does scare me and perhaps it is just that as pilots we won’t donate money to buy an RPT ticket but would happily fly our own aircraft subsidised, even if it was less efficient and dare I say it less safe.
By the way I have donned my hard hat and retreated to behind the sand bags in preparation for the missiles to come, even if I’m not trying to wind you up.:E
The Comet.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

How low can we get?

Well! I have some thoughts on the RFDS that I would be happy to share!

Dr :8

[corowacomet]

Do tell doctor, maybe it will take the heat off me for a bit!
The Comet:p.

[WannaBeBiggles]

What have we come to when we have to have a go at people who just want to do the community some service!

Sure some guys might not be doing the same hours as a meat bomber or RPT pilot, but hey unless your extremely rich I can't see ANYONE doing much more than that!

At the end of the day ANY licensed pilot is practially given a license to take people up in the air and in effect take their lives in to our hands.

I have seen a CPL'er do an intersection departure WITHOUT clearance at a Class D aerodrome in NSW and another CPL'er taxi UNDER a hovering helicopter at the same aerodrome! Now how are they any safer?

At the end of the day I would rather trust any one of the before mentioned pilots than I would trust any of the half whits on the road today!

All of these pilots still go through their BFR's, I'm sure 70% of people on the road today would not pass their driving test!

You make it sound like pilots are bending aircraft and scuttle running with patients in them! (hands up who had to double check their fillings after experiencing a less than ordinary landing on a commercial flight?)

The avgas is paid for and sure the fuel bill might equate to more than and RPT flight, but if at the end of the day it means that someone who is extremly ill doesn't have to drive a few hours each way to get to the airport, let alone have to wait for any delays that flight have, or the time it takes them to get through security, go through crowds of people, some of whom are too self involved in their own agendas to even notice who their bumping in to on their way to their next flight or meeting then I say so be it!

Come on people, someone asked a simple question, why not just answer his question instead of slandering a perfectly good and reputable organisation!

[Islander Jock]

Wannabebiggles,
don't stress too much about some of the posts mate. Angelflight has in the past and will continue to have good support from the majority of pilots here.

[NOtimTAMs]

There are a couple of ways of looking at what AngelFlight does.

From the patient's point of view, they need reliable safe transport to a distant location for medical or medicosocial reasons, and they are usually unable to afford either the time or money for same. The patient +/- attendant/s don't mind what form the transport takes but if time is of the essence, air transport is the winner.

From AngelFlight's point of view, they see the above need and say "let's respond to that by mobilising GA to fill the gap". Sometimes this does introduce distortions and inefficiencies. There are a large number of missions that are actually flown from sites that have (or are near) RPT services. Looking at things dispassionately, it is safer to fly RPT and the fuel bill/pax is cheaper. Interestingly, it is also tax deductible to make a donation to AngelFlight to use in purchasing an RPT ticket, but not to donate one's own aircraft usage (fuel is NOT the biggest cost/hour in owning/running an ACFT, BTW). This latter is a silly anomaly (a Federal ATO problem) and prevents a lot more GA owners being able to afford to donate more of their services and ACFT time.

It is interesting to see some flights made from places such as Tenterfield to Sydney (2.5-3.0 hr by light aircraft) when there are suitable specialist units in Brisbane (a 2.5 hr drive).

Is AngelFlight a bad thing - NO. Can it help raise the profile of GA in a positive manner - YES. Does it have some anomalies - YES. Is it "anti-Angelflight" to make a critical appraisal - NO.

Disclaimer : I have flown for AngelFlight - my last pax couldn't give a stuff or even say "thank you" and that after a smooth IFR flight flown through, and then above, scuzzy wx below.

[VH-XXX]

I know of Angel flights taking place in experimental home-built aircraft with PPL at the helm. I wonder how they tell that to the families that the aircraft was assembled in a garage.