When do WE rest and eat?

[WelshCityFlyer]

Hello all

I work for one of the UK charter airlines as cabin crew, and it is fair to say I am VERY irate about the following:

Show me ONE 9 - 5, /office worker / cleaner / even overworked doctor, who would play HOLY HELL at being on their feet for 8 - 12 hours solid, without a designated rest period, let alone without having at least one uninterrupted meal

THIS is what we crew have to put up with. We don't have any allocated rest periods, (unless we work for BA), and we barely get time to eat, even on a longish short sector, TFS for example, or on longhaul - (definately NO chance on a Palma!)- we just 'pick' at food, (if we're lucky)

Try telling the flight deck that they cannot have time to eat, and all hell would break loose, but it's expected of us. OK - the no1 might say in a briefing, "make sure you have a break and eat", but we all know it rarely happens.

Cabin crew are suppose to be there primarily for safety - how can we enforce this when we are all knackered and hungry, as well as run off our feet. (After all, without us, there would be no passengers, and no flight crew would have a job anyway!)

WE should campaign for proper rest periods,
a lot of us are now in the Cabin Crew 89 union, and this should be an urgent issue.
I know I am most definately not alone in this - countless crew have complained. It's time the job was brought up to basic standards for everyone - as I've mentioned above, this has conotations on safety, as well as comfort.

Do others at PPRUNE agree?

[steely]

you poor thing!
Suggest you go and get job as 9-5 office worker/cleaner/doctor etc, and stop whinging

[flapsforty]

Steely,
What a valauble contrubution! And what a brilliant way to improve cooperation between pilots and fa's! You must be such a pleasure to work with. :)

WCF, Very recognizable description of the daily reality on short haul. Only in our mob, the same goes for the pilots; seldom if ever do they have the chance to eat their meal in peace.

In the best case scenario we eat on a stopover with catering running around, the wind howling through the ac with both a door at the front and at the rear being open, cleaners evrywhere and a ground functionary understandably anxious to board ASAP.

And to be quite honest, there does not seem to be an easy solution to this situation. To make time for meals we would have to plan in large chunks of "off time", which would cost the airline way too much money. And even then, what with all the delays, it still would be unrealistic to expect it to work.

In our airline we try an solve the situation by giving the Purser a fair amount of discretion to adapt the service schedule in such a way as to give the fa's the chance to eat an undisturbed meal at something close to "stomach-time". And if that means scrapping the tax-free sales or a round of drinks, so be it.
Purser and Captain can also jointly decide to delay boarding at an out-station by a reasonable amount of time to allow eating dinner, and a subsequent shortish delay or lack of delay-recovery is accepted.

Travelling on a charter flight with another company last year to the States, 3 hours into the flight the Purser announced: "Ladies and Gentleman, the crew will now come around with a drink service. After that we will take half an hour to eat our own dinner, and no service will be given"

I thought that was brilliant and I did not hear a single pap complain.

Hope this helps.......

[Xenia]

WelshCityFlyer, unless you do long haule chances to get a proper break is quite unrealistic on short-medium haule...even worse in charter airlines where CA operate under minimun crew and are also involved in saling whatever is possible to pax...
To be honest with you I do short haule and if the crew is organized enough we also get the chance to have a seat down with a hot drink and something to eat even in a one hour flight!
In the worse of the cases as Flapsforty said it is possible to do it in turn-around.
However it's all part of the job! and really don't think Cabin Crew 89 could possibly help in this matter....
As I said it's all up to organization and to N.1
Agree with you that on a charter flight to Palma you don't get even the time to go to the loo...let alone to have something to eat...
My suggestion, not as dramatic as Steely's :)
is...try to change airline!!!
I flew for a charter airline for few months...deeply hated it...from the bottom of my heart, though I love the job (been flying since 1986!) So went to a scheduled airline!


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*************************Happy Landings! :)
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[WelshCityFlyer]

Steely

Whoever, or whatever you are, you are either a martyr to your job, or if a pilot, (as I suspect), too cossetted over by the likes of us overworked crew - you are not worthy of anything further with view to this worthy issue

Flapsforty

Thank you for a least a decent reply - who do you work for? - you seem to have things a lot more sussed than we do

What do OTHER CABIN CREW think of this issue?
please reply here!

WCF

[HugMonster]

Flaps has life more sussed than most of us!

Thinks... "Wish I flew with her..."

I recognise the problem, from the pointy end of the tube... On a four-or-more sector day, fitting in time to grab a meal (if it's hot, it's a plus) can be very difficult. We're certainly not cossetted by our cabin crew in our company, but when they can spare the time, they look after us as best they can, and generally before looking after themselves.

I apologise on behalf of other pilots for those among the breed who think that FA's are merely there to serve meals, bring drinks every 15 minutes, and warm the bed...

I know I couldn't do your job, and certainly not at the pay most of you get!

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Breeding Per Dementia Unto Something Jolly Big, Toodle-pip

[airbabe]

Hey!!!
If you have your crew motivated, it's amazing what you can achieve on a 1 hour flight.
We do a drinks service, hot meal with tea and coffee and duty free service and still have time for a sit down/break.
You should try a rolling service, it's very quick and easy.

[Goldie]

Or continue to treat the pax like s**t because you cant or wont take the problem to a manager

I often miss out on meals to ensure i make my connecting flight, it is my choice to either accept or decline the inflight meal.

I really get cross at shirty cabin crew who take their frustrations out on the people they are there to serve.

This is not a slave / master relationship, but if I dont like something than I simply don't do it.

[Next Generation PSR]

WELSH CITYFLYER, I understand totally where you are coming from, STEELY words fail me, so much for good crew relations you A*****E, FLAPSFORTY what a nice well thought out reply, nice to know some flight deck crew are not like STEELY.

WELSH I totally agree with you that everyone in the charter industry down the back seldom has a chance to eat - particularly on shorter sectors such as Palma/Gerona.

I'm a Purser, so fortunately I can make time for people to eat and drink on my flights.

First thing after take off, everyone has a cup of tea/coffee/water/soft drink, if by chance we have a slight delay before boarding then everyone grabs a sandwich or chocolate bar (I have first pick on chocolate bars - so don't even think about arguing that one with me!).

On a short sector such as PMI it is fair to say that on a daytime flight i.e 1000 onwards it is difficult on a 1h 45m flight to grab a bite, but it is still manageable as we have two people on galley duties whilst we are out on drinks and they could always grab a sandwich/chocolate bar then, but mostly on such flights if full, the norm is to work straight through until the end of the cabin service (i.e drinks/meals/sales).

On Breakfast flights, due to most people being sleepy, any good purser - myself included - modest aren't I? should let the crew sit sown and eat breakfast for 10 mins, however someone should always respond to call bells - you never know. It is unreasonable for any purser to expect their cabin crew to do say Breakfast followed by a Bar/Sales service (i.e two full services) before allowing their crew breakfast.

On other longer flights the ideal time to eat is once the customers have had their meal trays cleared and before doing sales, after all you stand little chance of getting the carts out in the cabin straight away with everyone queuing for the toilets.

If you are hungry though, don't suffer in silence, by the same token do not raid the larder when everyone else is working.

If you are say doing a Tenerife and you haven't eaten because the No1/PSR has elected for everyone to do Drinks, Meals and Sales (i.e 2.5 to 3hrs solid work) they really should have more care for their crew and should not be PSRs.

I personally allow juniors to eat before I do, I'll do paperwork on my j/seat, so that I can monitor the cabin, then I will eat while they are out on sales 10-15 mins later.

You are at the very least entitled to drink, and any galley crew member worth their wings should have at least a glass of water lined up for the others when they return from the drinks service.

If you have a No1/PSR who is a bit unapproachable/fearsome then I suggest you might mention it to the No2/Assistant Purser who will probably ring the front and say something like "are we going out on drinks/sales straight away?" and this should register with the Purser at the front of the aircraft as - my crew need a break

From another point of view, Pursers and No1s are also under pressure to provide the best possible service for any given sector/flight time due to directives from cabin services/commercial and their must be a balance so that the crew do not rest to long to the detriment of what the customer needs.

Also most flight deck crew members are very good, but some do seem to think that they're eating and drinking takes presidence over the customers on board - it doesn't. We will look after you to the best of our ability on equal terms, and no matter how hard flight deck crew try to impress upon me that they are flying the aircraft so they are above everyone else, I will look after you the best we can although our job is definately more physically demanding.

So WELSH I hope that helps you out, but don't suffer in silence at least speak to your assistant purser - they are great mediators - usually.

[White Shadow]

Just a quick word from an occasional SLF I think you lot are brilliant, most times.
Don't know how you do it.
Happy landings
WS

[flyblue]

WCF
I do both long and short haul, but have seldom encountered the problem you describe. As others (Xenia, NGP)say, it is just a matter of organization. Starting from briefing, especially in longhaul, I recommend to eat something before starting the services. They last for hours and you realize you are hungry when it's too late.
Then after services F/As eat in shifts.
In short haul it is even easier. As Xenia says, you can manage to have a semi-proper meal even in a 1 hour flight (and our service is quite elaborate!).
It seems quite easy to me, but...I am the purser. If the pursers in your company don't understand the simple truth that even F/As eat, then you should take Xenia's wise advice: CHANGE!

[euroboy]

I use to work for an airline which allowed the Capt.to delay a flight up to 10 mins during the turnround.
There has been a report that said that paxs should eat and drink non alcoholic beverages for there health especially early morning departures.
Paxs are told to drink plenty of water on flights so as we are on the same flight plus we are active so we sweat (a little) we also need time to drink.

I learnt to eat quickly, a hot meal in 10 mins. I remember one Christmas at my parents, the whole family there. A plate of turkey, sprouts, etc was placed infront of me. As I cleared my plate I looked up, to find everyone looking at me. They had not even started yet!!!! Wot manners?

[This message has been edited by euroboy (edited 10 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by euroboy (edited 10 January 2001).]

[WelshCityFlyer]

Goldie

I most definately DO NOT treat the passengers like S**t - I am far too caring a person for that.

What you don't seem to understand is that PROPER breaks are a right by LAW - not whether or not we have a good no1/purser on hand to see they are adhered to - can you not see what point I'm trying to make? - I'm fighting for ALL our rights, without anybody having to be a martyr to their job.

Next Generation - If they were all like yourself, we would have no problems anyway - you are obviously an intelligent, level headed person, and an excellent pursor.
Same goes for Flyblue, but as you all know, a bad pursor reverses the situation.

I re-iterate: I would like to see basic rights for breaks available to ALL crew, without having to rely on the common sense of the pursor

[Xenia]

EuroBoy...as far as you didn't eat your X-mas dinner standing up and cleaned your hands in the kitchen curtains...it was still all right honey! :) :)

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*************************Happy Landings! :)
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[This message has been edited by Xenia (edited 10 January 2001).]

[WelshCityFlyer]

Xenia

With that statement, I would normally say "I rest my case", but as far as I'm concerned this particular case cannot be rested

WCF

[Captian Slackbladder]

When I worked as ground staff if there was more than one person at the gate I would go down and help the crew during the beging of the turn roung so that the could have 5 mins to sit down and eat something. We would try to get thing organised so that boarding didn't take as long. Some of our crews were doing 6 sector days so we always tried to do this on at least 1 turnround.
I have worked for several airlines and at each on the captain could delay the flight so the crew could eat (although they were always reluctant to do this!!)

[Xenia]

For godness sake WelshCityFlyer...can't u take a joke?? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif :rolleyes:
Never heard about "sense of humor"??? :) :)

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*************************Happy Landings! :)
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[This message has been edited by Xenia (edited 11 January 2001).]

[Flygor]

In our company the no1's are usually very good, and we nearly always get a meal break, on at least one sector if not both on longer flights, even if it means dropping a service in order to achieve this. I usually lose my appetite though when i remember that i am eating two feet away from a rubbish dump (gash bag) and three feet away from a public toilet. Call me cynical but do you think this would be tolerated in a staff canteen on the ground?

[flyblue]

WCF
you are technically right. But the problem is that the vast majority of F/A don't have that problem, so it is unlikely they are going to fight for this. It seems more something that unions should try to solve within your airline, I mean try to change the mentality. Because if pursers act the way you describe, sure they had the input from management. I think it shouldn't be too difficult to make them understand that it is better to have happy rested F/As rather than hungry and unhappy ones, for the same price, just matter of organization. You CAN't work properly without eating and "decompressing" for 10 minutes. Happens to ALL human beings.
In my company there was that rule F/As couldn't seat in attendance time during longhaul flights (I mean while the other half of the crew was having their rest).
I think that F/As are not horses, so starting from day 1 let people sit in dead times. No use making all F/As stand during the night flights when all pax are sleeping and two F/As are largely enough for monitoring the cabin/toilets and answering calls. If you need 6, six stand, if it is quiet they can sit, and answer the calls in shifts. After a while this idea got into the thick skulls of the deskflyers ( I am referring to those who make the rules for the flying people whitout having an idea what it means to fly. We should start a topic about it) who allowed it. Funny the supervisors were going around spreading the good new when everybody was already doing it. Deskflyers should fly more, otherwise they get there last.

Do you have rest periods in long haul? The JAR require crew rests for long flights. Our new aircrafts arrived equipped with Lower Crew Rests with bunks according to the JAR.
It costs the airline a little, but an happy well rested crew adds value to the product the company sells. As Gordon Bethune says :" You can make a pizza so cheap no one will want to eat it".

[WelshCityFlyer]

Flyblue

On our long haul sectors, (for example, to Barbados), we are lucky if we sit down for 10 minutes of the 9 hours it takes to get there - bunks??! - we should be so lucky!

You are dead right about the 'deskflyers', and I agree with you a separate topic is merited. These people come up with the most ludicrous ideas, that are both time-consuming, and almost impossible to achieve: As you state, THEY should try it at 35,000ft

With regards to the rest breaks that all human beings should have, I will not quit on this one - it needs to be addressed properly. I suppose if an accident happened, due to crew exhaustion, something would be done, as per normal.

[Goldie]

WCF I think you would be better off fighting for what you believe are your rights rather than the "rights of all"

[WelshCityFlyer]

Goldie

With people like you working for them, no wonder SOME airlines believe they can treat their crew like s**t

[west030]

WCF, maybe I am missing something here but why are you picking on the pilots? i don't think it is their fault that you guy's don't have the time to eat.

Talk to your boss or find a job inthe executive aviation. That will give you time to eat!

Good luck!

[WelshCityFlyer]

Can I please get this straight?

I am NOT picking on the pilots - I am new to this board, I do not know who is, or is not a pilot, unless they state it!

I am simply trying to get other cabin crews' opinions as to whether or not they agree that we should have PROPER designated breaks.

A lot of other crew in my company are in full agreement with me, I'm simply trying to ascertain if crew in general are.

That is all

[HugMonster]

WCF, it would be very difficult to lay down precise rules to allow cabin crew to have a break.

Yes, it is highly desirable that you have one. No, nobody in their right minds (if they think for one moment about the possible consequences) should expect you to carry on non-stop for 10 hours.

Any CSD/Purser/No1 should have developed sufficient team management expertise to be able to sort it out. Team working should be able to accommodate this.

However, there are sufficient unknowns and possible developments that may not make it possible. ("Can someone else please give them an emergency brief? I'm on my break").

Not all airlines work the same. No two teams of aircrew work quite the same. If you have a problem within your company, I suggest you sort it out with your Cabin Services Manager. If you have no joy there, contact your Flight Safety Officer. But I don't think that you will find enough commonality here to conduct a campaign through PPRuNe.

[flapsforty]

Airbabe, could you tell me what a "rolling service" is?
Sounds like the smartest thing since sliced bread! :)
Please?

[Goldie]

And so say all of us thanks Hugmonster

[WelshCityFlyer]

Well, thank you all for your contributions. I can see, (as Goldie says), that it's no use trying to drum up support for this on a wide scale basis - people seem perfectly content to carry on as they are.

I will contain my efforts within my own company, where I am sure of support.


So, I will sign off this thread
ps This is the third airline I've worked for, and the other two have been just as bad: I'd like to know what companies those of you who are satisfied work for

[HugMonster]

WCF, did you actually read what people posted? If not, don't go off in a huff - go back and actually read what was written.

Conditions vary from one airline to another, from one aircraft type to another, from one route to another. Different CSD's run their cabins different ways. Different airlines have more (or less) enlightened views and procedures from another.

You cannot legislate for such as this. It would be so full of holes the end result would be both a nonsense, and unworkable.

Stop whingeing that people here aren't supporting you, and go talk to the people who can really make a difference. Do something for yourself, instead of expecting other people to sort it out for you.

[Xenia]

WCF...I can see by your 8 posts that you are quite new here....
Let me give you a quick briefing darling :)
First at all the idea of having a forum is to exchange ideas and information, and why not...have a laugh (sorry but I have a bit of a sense of humor and I can't stop it :) )
Second, don't get upset if you don't agree with what other people think :rolleyes:
Third, we are just telling you how things work in our airlines, or how we manage to eat and rest.
I don't think you could possibly go to your managers with a print out of this topic and tell them :"look what other people do or think" http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif If you have that problem in your airline..that's the place for you to sort it out.
I've been flying for a quite long while now, and have done all sorts...long haule, medium and short....and have to be honest and say that yours is a problem that had hardly affected me.
Maybe follow HM advice...go back and read what people said, and take some ideas from there.
We can't really give you a proper advice, as we don't know how things work in your airline...and because of that we can't even give you the solution of your problems. It's your manager responsability to do it, not your fellow crewmembers on PPRuNe
As I said we can just exchange information and ideas here....and I believe you had quite a few points of view about it now.


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*************************Happy Landings! :)
*************************

[Xenia]

Just for a little healthy laugh :)

MANAGEMENT LESSONS
*********************************

Lesson Number One
*************************
A crow was sitting on a tree, doing nothing all day. A small rabbit
saw the crow, and asked him, "Can I also sit like you and do nothing
all day long?" The crow answered: "Sure, why not." So, the rabbit
sat
on the ground below the crow, and rested. All of a sudden, a fox
appeared, jumped on the rabbit and ate it.

Management Lesson: To be sitting and doing nothing, you must be
sitting very, very high up.


Lesson Number Two
************************
A little bird was flying south for the winter. It was so cold, the
bird froze and fell to the ground in a large field. While it was lying
there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on it. As the frozen
bird
lay there in the pile of cow dung, it began to realize how warm it
was. The dung was actually thawing him out! He lay there all warm
and
happy, and soon began to sing for joy. A passing cat heard the bird
singing and came to investigate. Following the sound, the cat
discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung, and promptly dug
him
out and ate him!

Management Lessons:
1) Not everyone who drops **** on you is your enemy.
2) Not everyone who gets you out of **** is your friend.
3) And when you're in deep **** , keep your mouth shut!


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*************************Happy Landings! :)
*************************

[This message has been edited by Xenia (edited 15 January 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Xenia (edited 15 January 2001).]

[dc9sport]

Ladies! and/or gent!
Please allow a humble SLF to make a comment, based on 4 recent long haul flights with a far eastern carrier - no names mentioned, but they do have a rep for good custumer service (god knows why!).

The cabin crew on their 10-11 hour flights were definately not without rest:

After meal service (approx 2 hours) the WHOLE cabincrew of the (full booked) economy class (747-400), bar 1 disappeared into their bunks, only to reappear 5 hours later to do a hurried breakfast.
During the rest period, the one remaining steard sat himself down on a js in the rear of the cabin and proceeded to read a paper.


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The same airline employs cabinstaff that are unable to reach the overheadbins - is that actually legal?

[flapsforty]

WCF,
To follow up on Xenia's and HugMonster's suggestions, may I suggest that you read the profiles of the various contributors?
You asked explicitly what other cabin crew thought of this matter. Xenia, Airbabe, NG PSR, Flyblue and I are all cabin crew, and each of us has gone trhough the trouble of trying to help you out by supplying you with information on how we do things, both as individuals and according to our company procedures.
On top of that, West030 and HugMonster, both pilots, took the time to let you know their thoughts on the matter.

You shrug off our contributions, as they apparently are not what you wished to hear. To me that seems rather churlish and counter-productive.

But hey Girl, suit yourself and sulk, just remember that you're antagonizing a group of friendly and potentially helpful people here.

Your loss....................


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Singularly Simple Person........

[euroboy]

Xenia

Love the Management Lessons! Had a good laugh.

But how TRUE!!

[Evacu8]

I agree with just about everyone, I used to fly short haul, on a 4 sector day, we usually had time to eat on at least 3 sectors if we wanted ( even if it was a bit rushed).

On long haul sectors, we have rostered time off after the meal service ie, everyone on the left side goes off for 3 hours, the rest stay and play with the pax, then swap over. ( I must add some of our sectors are 15 hours long !!). We have bunks in the 747-400 and on selected services on the B747-300. The B747-200/SP/B767's have curtained off seats for us to snooze in.

It's all about time management on short sectors !!

If you have a 4 secotr day, and you havent had time to eat on the first 2, then you have to adapt the service to accommodate you (a hungry & fatigued f/a is a safety hazzard!) a good rule of thumb for this situation would be to look after:
a)cabin crew b) techies c)pax in that order. But with proper time management, you should never get into that situation !~!

You have to look after yourselves and your fellow cabin crew in order to be able to look after the pax !!

If your airline is that bad, I would really suggest you cahnge carriers !!

Oh and whoever that SLF was who complained about the f/a sitting down reading the paper - what would you have him do? Laps of the cabin for five hours? Sit there twiddling his thumbs for five hours? Serenade the pax to sleep? What ?? I'm sure if you pressed your call button, he'd put the paper down and help you. Geesh! no pleasing some people!! ;)