Media report on SA pilot exodus

[Rotates Lowly]

Check out the STAR (25 Oct 2007) business report page 15 for a full page view on the state of the local airline industry. There is quite a lot of info on among others SAA and Comair losing pilots etc.

[hungryLinehunter]

if you could paste the info printed in the STAR that would be really great.
or if they have some kind of website displaying such info....

really too far from SA to arm reach the hard copy.:ugh:

cheers.:cool:

[Jamex]

Cant find this particular Star in my area. Any chance someone can publish the report?

[JetNut]

there's no way in hell I will accept a pay cut....especially when I'm being offered a shiny new aeroplane to fly, and triple the cash in my bank account every month....:}

[JetNut]

But this is common knowledge by now...supply and demand....



60 pilots are ready to bail out of SAA
October 25, 2007

By AUDREY D’ANGELO

Cape Town - SAA might lose at least 60 experienced pilots who were likely to leave the national carrier rather than face cuts in salaries, it emerged yesterday.

The airline has been engaging in an extensive restructuring process that could see more than 2 000 workers dismissed for operational reasons to trim costs. Pilots will also be affected, unless they agree to salary cuts and the renegotiation of their packages.

Several international airlines, particularly those in the Middle East that are expanding rapidly, are recruiting in this country. Between 50 and 60 SAA pilots are known to have gone for interviews.

There is a global shortage of pilots, and the loss of the SAA pilots would shrink the already small local pool.

Gidon Novick, the joint chief executive of British Airways/Comair, said his airline had been losing pilots over the past two years, mainly to Emirates. But the airline was training "a constant stream" of new pilots to replace them and was not suffering from a shortage.

John Harty, the chief negotiator for the SAA Pilots' Association, said yesterday that the group was "very concerned about the potential loss of a large number of pilots. Our pilots are highly respected internationally and are in demand due to the excellent training they receive."

He said SAA pilots' salaries were benchmarked against those at comparable international airlines and a local domestic airline. They were also compared with those in the South African business sector.

"One of the main reasons for [SAA] entering into this salary agreement was to ensure that SAA pilots' salaries are aligned with those of other international airlines to ensure retention of their skills.

"Unfortunately, some pilots are choosing to leave SAA, mainly because of the airline's recent announcement that up to 225 pilots may need to be retrenched as part of the proposed restructuring exercise.

"We are worried about the impact this will have on the airline's ability to maintain its schedule," said Harty.

"In addition, SAA technicians are being actively headhunted by international airlines. These are critical skills the country can ill afford to lose."

The pilots' group was in talks with SAA in a bid to ensure the pilots were retained, said Harty.

Robyn Chalmers, the head of communications at SAA, said the onerous conditions of employment implemented in the past had contributed to SAA's high cost base.

"As a result, SAA is in negotiation with recognised trade unions on conditions," Chalmers said. "The negotiations are aimed at standardising and simplifying conditions of employment and labour agreements across the board.

"The aim is to reduce the high cost base on a sustainable basis, which will be a key factor in ensuring that SAA remains profitable once it has achieved its turnaround."

Chalmers said SAA would assess whether retrenchments were necessary once the current talks were completed. "At the moment no retrenchments have been undertaken."

Pilots' salaries are understood to be hugely lucrative, but neither Harty nor Chalmers was willing to divulge them.

[Jamex]

Thanks Jetnut. Appreciate it, mate:ok:

"There is a global shortage of pilots, and the loss of the SAA pilots would shrink the already small local pool."

Khaya & co need to read this and understand it! The age-old "union-busting" trick of shutting stores when faced with a demand for higher salaries so the union ends up negotiating for jobs instead of increases is being applied here. The company then agrees to retain the jobs but not without a pay-cut. Unfortunately, with Khaya's usual brilliant timing, they are trying this tactic while the worlds airlines are screaming pilot shortage! Tactically, he is showing that, Napolean he certainly isnt but, who knows, maybe a Sadam Hussein? To ALL SAA aircrew, Hang in there guys, You certainly wont have a hard time finding another job should these cretins lay you off. Cant say the same for management once they kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

[thincatblue]

"Pilots' salaries are understood to be hugely lucrative, but neither Harty nor Chalmers was willing to divulge them."

By who's standard is this judged to be "hugely lucrative". Is this another knive from the SA media - always ready to knock and spread bad/negative news about SAA? Seems like Roger Makings now have a sidekick.

Sometimes it seems like these reporters follow the "don't let the facts cloud a good story!" way of writing.

[JetNut]

Roger Makings is a clueless pilot-wannabe....always scanning these forums for a good story.

SA and SAA pilots are underpaid by international standards.

[thincatblue]

Hear hear Jetnut - you got my vote!

[nugpot]

SA and SAA pilots are underpaid by international standards.

Bull. Nowhere else on this planet can you maintain the lifestyle that you can here for the same relative position in the industry.

You Jetnut, by own admission, are an FO. I bet you live in an expensive house, drive a reasonably new car and have servants to work in your garden, clean your house, etc. After paying all your bills you have some money left to play golf or whatever you do for entertainment. Please chat to FO's in other carriers with 50 odd aircraft and see how they live.

I don't think you should take a paycut, because I believe that your company was mismanaged into its current sad state, but please don't tell me that you are underpaid.

[thincatblue]

Ok Nugpot, so not overpaid but certainly market related!

Your analogy of compairing 50 aircraft directly to salary is far to simplistic. By using this theory the guys and gals at emirates are in for some fat pay increases as the number of aircraft increase? I think not!

I dont know if you are aware of the intricate and painfully long process that was followed to get to the current SAA salary structures- with management involvement all the way! The fact that we are still, or should I say, back to 50 aircrafts should not now be held over the pilot's head, but as you rightly admit, blame should be approprated to bad management and forward planning.

[Frogman1484]

Nugpot I agree nowhere in the planet can you take your own life in your own hands every time you leave your estate. Nowhere else can you expect to be shot at every intersection and nowhere else can you be marginalized in society just because you are white. Best lifestyle by far I agree!!!

[line-driver]

and as for Mr Novic's statement.....he needs to get out of his office, get in his expensive car and take a drive to flight ops and see first hand how the rostering computor crashes in a vain attempt to keep all his flights crewed, no wonder that there is so much continous training of new-hire's taking place, just search this forum to get a take of the current pilot mood at BA/Comair.

On the bright side is there is more airline jobs and general movement and oppurtunities available from here on than ever before in SA, the new CPL blokes must be smilig, knowing that their hard earned and expesively paid for training was not a waste.

[Avi8tor]

.....said his airline had been losing pilots over the past two years, mainly to Emirates. But the airline was training "a constant stream" of new pilots to replace them and was not suffering from a shortage.

The man has hit it on the head, still PLENTY of guys out there waiting for real jobs. Same applies to SAA, I bet SAA still have a huge pile of CV's to choose from.

Said it before, movement is good.

[nugpot]

Nugpot I agree nowhere in the planet can you take your own life in your own hands every time you leave your estate.

Oh, I understand! Danger pay! For when you leave your "Estate" nogal .......................



If you went to the trouble of searching for my previous posts on this site, you'll see that I don't want SAA guys to be shafted or to take a paycut. Just don't try and tell me that you are underpaid.

I have read the SAA MOP and it was written by some very clever people.

[Placido]

I believe ALL pilots are underpaid!

The industry is short on pilots because we've been accepting poor T&C for a long time.

SAA can simply not justify their existance because of poor management, that does not mean the service sold by the pilots does not have acertain price tag.

I would like to agree that pilots must be compensated for the lack of security, proper schooling and public transport to work. The reason that pay is what it is in the ME, China and India, is because of compensation for living conditions. The same should apply in SA!

What is safe housing, good schooling and proper transport to and from work, worth? (Incidentall, those are the 3 factors Richard Branson list as the most important for a happy worker)

Don't sell yourself short!

[nugpot]

The reason that pay is what it is in the ME, China and India, is because of compensation for living conditions. The same should apply in SA!

SAA is only open to SA citizens, unlike the places you mention. There is also no shortage of applications.

Don't sell yourself short!

I worked as an electronic engineer for a few years. I know the relative pay vs work and pay vs responsibility factors. I am merely being realistic. Although pilots might become a relatively scarce resource, they definitely have an over-inflated sense of their own worth and importance.

[FuelFlow]

IS THIS THE BEGINNING OF THE END:confused:
Who says SAA pilots are Overpaid. Any money is better than NONE!!!

Glitch with Salary Payments
Please note that as a result of a technical glitch experienced yesterday, Thursday 25 October 2007, between SAA and our bankers, the payment of your salary into your bank account did not take place at midnight last night as is normal practice.
We are working hard to rectify the situation. We have been advised that employees who bank with Standard Bank will receive their salaries today (Friday 26 October), while those with other banks will receive their salaries tomorrow.

[Avi8tor]

What is safe housing, good schooling and proper transport to and from work, worth?
That is a question that I am sure ALL South Africans are grappling with black, white and indifferent. That is not particular to pilots, thats a South Africa in general question.

Airlines are businesses, not flying clubs or pilot benevolence funds, they have to make profits. If they dont, we will all be out of jobs. Unless of course you work for a airline that doesn't need to make a profit.

We are subject to the laws of supply and demand, like any other profession. If the airlines start to make super profits, then thats what strong unions are for...:)

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Of course pilots are overpaid, specifically in South Africa and in general everywhere else. After a year's work for a licence the appprentice flyer thinks that he is worthy of a geat fortune in earnings? Were one to have to be terribly judgemental, there might be a reason for coming to the conclusion, after reading some of the Pprune posts, that all that pilots are good for is pulling the auto-land lever and generally complaining about their lot.
The South African Airways pilot conundrum is very simply solved.
SAA pilots are South African citizens?
SAA is at the least a quasi government organization?
SAA is essential to the prosperity and security of South Africa?
SAA pilots should be conscripted into the SAAF.
SAA flights should be run as an airforce offshoot.
SAA pilots who refuse conscription shall have their passports confiscated.
SAA pilots who still refuse to serve are shot for desertion and cowardice.
SAA should replace its chief pilot with one from north of the 38th parallel.
:cool:

[sky waiter]

Comm guys who know there licence wasnt a waste?

What about the contract guys who know it was? Or are trying to get into the airline with all this movement, i personaly recon i must be doing something wrong as i dont have airlines phoning me left right and centre...

Bit off topic but need to post something somewhere and try to give the SAA guys a break!!!

[TwinJock]

Nugpot has my vote!!

SAA drivers are definitely overpaid if compared to other local players. The age old lie off "we are so highly trained, that is why we are in such a demand" by SAA spokesman, has been proven to be a lie over and over.

The aviation industry in the USA, Australia, and even the UK, is not what is was a couple of years ago. In the USA FO's are being paid less than burger flippers at the big M - and they continue to find individuals who are willing to work for peanuts. At mainline BA, only the very senior skippers are well paid, while the rest are working their butts off. SAA has not kept up with the times - the aviation industry world wide has changed, but SAA still pays their drivers "parity". Parity, compared to who and what.

The reason for SAA's woes was partly caused by SAAPA's greed! Adapt or die brothers! Oh, by the way, to those SAA training captains that I met this week - welcome to Dubai!:ok:

[SAASFO]

Jetnut??

SA and SAA pilots are underpaid by international standards.

I am an SAA pilot and I am marginally overpaid for what I do. Yes, I'd be a Captain at any other airline with around 10 years service, but I am earning around $10,000 a month excluding benefits, and you show me any other airline where a first officer earns that kind of money. However, let's look at a brand new FO at SAA - He or she walks in at the same salary as a Comair Captain (over R500k a year) and this is where SAA's salary structure is seriously skewed. The pay scales are too flat and this is primarily because CJ was on SAAPA as an FO when these pay scales were negotiated and it was in his personal favour for them to be so at the time.

However, our Captain salaries are also too high. Do you realise that SAA pilots are the third highest paid airline pilot group in the world!! And that is before our benefits are taken into account.

As for Twinjock:

The aviation industry in the USA, Australia, and even the UK, is not what is was a couple of years ago.

Which rock are you crawling out from behind? SAA could not have chosen a worst time ever for taking on the pilots. Airlines all over the world are in a pilot shortage crisis, specifically qualified pilots, and it is a matter of time before airlines like Etihad, Emirates, Qatar and the like start pushing up salaries way beyond SAA's to enable themselves to expand at the rate they need to.

[wing tip brakes]

SAASFO I don't understand the problem everyone has with the junior salaries.
It was set up long ago, thats how it is. I have yet to hear a captain whining that he's getting too much money. apparently this si because of all the managerial duties they have. I only thing they manage is,
1. Do I have one or two cups of coffee before take off
2. What meal should I have tonight
While the Cojo is doing the interior and exterior preflight.

SAASFO if you are overpaid why not stand up at the next SAAPA meeting and propose a pay cut. Is the idea not to save the airline.

[SAASFO]

Wing tip brakes, if all the SAA pilots flew for free the airline would still be going down the tubes - that was not my point.

As for the post I read somewhere about Cargo carrying SAA, try an over R150 million loss on the MD11 freight operation alone in less than a year!!

We will also be taking pay cuts because there is a definite pay freeze for next year which, based on inflation, means an effective 5% to 7% pay cut.

[Avi8tor]

wow SAASFO - I have to hand it to you, at least 1 SAA pilot seems to understand where I and a couple of others in these threads have been coming from.

I would be careful in the parking lot at night, or pay the guard to keep an extra special eye on your car. Some of your friends on here might have it in for you after this.

[rockandroll1]

Twinjock,

What a load of b....cks. You being shafted in the ME is not the problem of decently paid professionals in the UK, most of Europe and so on. You want to be paid even less, good luck - why not try Sri Lanka or something :ugh:

[fluffyfan]

Avi8tor Mnr...............what is it you have against the pilots of SAA, you have made your descision, now live with it.......please go to the middle East forum, you will find plenty of threads to work with, how is the A380 conversion going?

[Avi8tor]

Come on, is that the best you can come up with Fluffy fan? You have NO reasonable argument, so your solution is to tell somebody to go away? Kinda sad considering that this is a public forum.

I have a vested interest in South Africa, whats more, I would like the wannabees to have the BEST chance in the aviation industry in SA. I have nothing against SAA in general or its pilots in particular. In fact I have some very good friends at SAA. My views are very well stated on this forum and in the pub.

SAA and the other state controlled lose makers are a huge drag on the whole industry. SAA's staff are largely overpaid and under worked and this in spite of being technically insolvent. If it wasn't for BILLIONS of ZAR's from the tax payer it would have been history years ago.

We live in a globalised world, we all would like to see South Africa and its airlines take its share in that market. But it seems that some people don't want to do what it takes because, in the SHORT term, it is against their selfish interests.

The fact that I have packed my bucket and spade and play on a beach, where the tide is always a long way out, wont change the facts.

[wing tip brakes]

I think SAA pilots should offer the company at least a 20% pay cut. At least show the company you are serious. a reduction in sick leave is just window dressing.

Then all the SAA bashers can relax because they are will be earning more. Its typical of SA whities, you can't let the sun shine on anyone else.

[Avi8tor]

Do they really give you guys a lobotomy when they measure you for your funny hats?

Then all the SAA bashers can relax because they are will be earning more. Its typical of SA whities, you can't let the sun shine on anyone else.
Its not about who earns more than anybody else and its NOT about bashing SAA. Its about that all the private/listed airlines in South Africa have unfair government sponsored competition. Not only that, it then goes on to waste the taxpayers money by overpaying and under working its employees.

This really isn't about me buying a Ferrari or u making the payments on your BMW, it goes a little further than that.

[SAASFO]

At least show the company you are serious

Serious about what?? SAA pilots are leaving to go to other airlines - that shows how serious we are!! SAA management can take any chance of a pay cut and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Until they start running this airline with good corporate governance and stop wasting hundreds of millions through total incompetence, then, if the airline is still losing money we will consider our remuneration position - until then :=

[nugpot]

I completely agree with you SAASFO. No pilot pay reduction will solve SAA's problems.

because they are will be earning more

wing tip brakes on the other hand maybe should not have been earning anything. Get it into your scull mate - some of us actually think that our salaries are fair and see no reason to ask for parity with SAA. It has nothing to do with sun shining on others, but everything to do with this comment from Jetnut:
SA and SAA pilots are underpaid by international standards.

[sidestick driver]

Serious about what?? SAA pilots are leaving to go to other airlines - that shows how serious we are!!

Surely that should read "That shows how serious others are?"

Reading between the lines, it seems as if you're going to ride on the back of others and will never move yourself.

That threat is pointless.

[Avi8tor]

management can take any chance of a pay cut and shove it .........Until they start running this airline with good corporate governance and stop wasting hundreds of millions
And just when I thought you had it sussed. SAA has a fleet of NEW aircraft, good routes, full loads at industry standard yields but yet it continues to make huge losses. SAA also WAY overpays its staff by industry standards.

Any ideas where the 'good corporate governance' should start or do I have to join the dots for u?

[wing tip brakes]

Avi8tor. Your real confused. When I suggest a pay cut you start talking about lobotomies and funny hats. All you ans others who have moved to greener pastures talk about is how SAA is overpaying the employees. So damned if you do damned if you don't. By the way, an interesting post of yours on CX cargo. You wouldn't get out of bed for that salary. But you whine about SAA overpaying. Maybe CX cargo can't afford the salaries everyone thinks they're entitled to.

If some of the previous replies are anything to go by, no one is serious about making meaningful concessions to the company.

I've heard on numerous occasions people saying that they couldn't afford to pay for the hotels SAA stay at. But SAA is expected to pay. Why not accept a lesser grade hotel. SAA must spend tens of millions on 5star hotel rooms for the shack dwellers. a 3star hotel for them would still be a step up. Surely the savings would be enormous.

On corporate governance, no one is or ever will be accountable at SAA. The reason why private companies make money is, if someone has made a bad decision which costs the company money, they're out the door.

Golf estate house and beach house payed for. 20% cut no problem. By the way going for a walk on the beach right now.

[lol777]

Hi everyone

I am new to pprune as a registered user. But allways read up on all the gossip and news. I just cant help to have joined i must say. o yea and SAASFO i like your views on stuff.
But i have to ask. Firstly i am flying up in Africa. I hear all the s:mad:t that is going on in SA, and read about it in the news papers when i am lucky enough to get one.
What the hell is happening in SA. I understand that pilots are leaving because of all the crap going on with crime and stuff. But at this point its still hard to get into other countries without ratings or work permits. So was thinking about coming home to try and get into the airlines there and become marketable to the rest of the world. But can i have some of your views of comair,saa and the rest. it seems that there is a bad feeling allround from the guys. And what is happening with the whole restructuring at saa what is that about. Will your jobs at leats be still safe or for only afirmative action guys.
Great website and please guys we sould stand together more as pilots.

[line-driver]

from a different forum and a different part of the world, but SAA, Comair and others, sit up and take notice.
HONG KONG October 28 Sapa-dpa

FLIGHTS GROUNDED AS PILOTS RESIGN FROM HONG KONG'S SECOND AIRLINE

Hong Kong's second-biggest airline, Dragonair, is being forced to
cancel up to eight flights a day as pilots quit the airline in
unprecedented numbers, the airline confirmed Sunday.

Six captains resigned within a week earlier this month, and 34 first
officers or captains have handed in their notice in the last six
months, say pilots who link the departures from the short-haul carrier
to a dispute over rosters and pay.

On October 13, eight flights were cancelled - five between Hong Kong
and Shanghai and two between Hong Kong and Taipei - with crew shortages
cited as the reason in all cases and specifically cockpit crew
shortages cited in two cases.

A year after its 1.5-billion-US-dollar takeover by Cathay Pacific,
cancellations by the airline, which flies to routes around China and
the region, are running at a rate of two a day, pilots say.

Pilots claim the resignations have been sparked by "bullying and
intransigence," saying management have repeatedly refused to implement
rostering agreements to ease the strain on pilots handling a growing
volume of flights.

Dragonair, which has around 400 mostly expatriate pilots and
operates around 100 flights a day, said in a statement Sunday that it
was being impacted by a worldwide shortage of cockpit personnel.

A spokeswoman said that eight cancellations on October 13 were due
to "crew sickness." The airline had already hired 57 new pilots this
year and planned to hire 10 more before the end of the year and another
50 next year, she said.

One senior pilot who has been with Dragonair for more than 10 years
said: "I have never seen morale so low. Pilots are leaving because
they're thoroughly fed up with the management.

"We haven't had a pay rise for seven years, but it's not really a
pay issue. We have asked for a roster agreement for years and years.

Our union has provided two draft agreements, but management just look
at them and nothing happens. The management are bullying and
intransigent."
The pilot, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that eight
cancellations in one day was unprecedented.

"It has usually been about two cancellations a day, but the
situation is clearly getting worse," he said.

Dragonair pilots have imposed a contract compliance policy since
March 2005 in their efforts to secure a rostering agreement, and a
captain familiar with ongoing negotiations between the pilots
association and management said talks were deadlocked.

Another senior pilot said: "The salary for a Dragonair pilot is no
longer competitive because of inflation and the state of the US dollar,
and the rostering situation has become untenable. With the increase in
the flights schedule and the wet leased flights in China, some guys are
doing 14 overnights a month, and they're just fed up with it.

"Our pilots are leaving to join Korean Air, Emirates and even Air
China, which is offering postings based in Australia. In one week, we
had six pilots leave - all of them captains."
A spokeswoman for Dragonair denied that the resignations were linked
to the rostering dispute.

"There are currently more vacancies than there are pilots throughout
the industry," she said. "Therefore, it is not surprising to see a
degree of pilot turnover at Dragonair and many other airlines."
She said that talks have been ongoing with the Dragonair Pilots'
Association "for some time" over issues including pay, conditions and
rostering practices.

"We are awaiting a response from the pilots' representatives to our
offer on the salary and benefits packages, which was made in early
October," the spokeswoman said. "In addition, the company has formed a
team to review the provision of some of the additional benefits
provided to many of its pilots."

Source : Sapa-dpa

[Mark J B]

Sounds like Dragonair management have the same attitude as our local "heavy breathers." Stick your head in the sand and it will all go away! Someone needs to point out that when your head is in the sand, your backside is in the air, and is a great target for a shafting!

[Avi8tor]

But you whine about SAA overpaying. Maybe CX cargo can't afford the salaries everyone thinks they're entitled to.

Neither can SAA!!! I dont believe anybody is 'entitled' to anything. Law of supply and demand.

No confusion, I promise. The issue here is not what SAA staff earn in itself. If SAA was a private company, it could pay what it pleased. Give the tea girl a million rands a month, for all I care. But it isn't, as its only shareholder, I subsidise it.

Whats more in doing so, I create unfair competition for the private/listed airlines. So what we are left with is the 'big dog' F:mad:king up and the rest of the industry unable to fill the gap.

Result: Pilots are worse off.

[Jamex]

In response to Linedrivers post above. The amazing thing management need to keep in mind is that these guys are not resigning to sit on their thumbs! There are other companies benefitting from this. As there are companies benefitting from the SAA guys leaving. SAA needs to decide whether they want to become like Solenta, a stepping stone on the path to furthering ones career, or do they want to remain a career airline? There are jobs out there, it has never been this good for pilots. The free market forces are at work and the law of supply and demand is in the pilots favour right now and not the companies. Companies with progressive management realize this and are working the market already! Those who dont recognise this or are looking at the short term will lose out with serious repercussions in the future.

[Avi8tor]

SAA needs to decide whether they want to become like Solenta, a stepping stone on the path to furthering ones career, or do they want to remain a career airline
The supply and demand works both ways. SAA has a pile of CV's. A simple question, cheaper to train or retain. Now lets think about that for a minute, a 62 yr old captain on a salary that looks like Zimbabwe's national debt or a guy that you can get for about R250k pa and promote a long suffering co pilot?

Said it before, its business not a flying club. You dont get your name on a wooden plaque in the dinning room for 25yrs membership.

[Jamex]

Everything cuts two ways. Supply and demand, as in buyers market or sellers market, is cyclical. The question is, where do you want your company to find itself when the music stops? If other companies are prepared to pay decently or provide better packages then you need to ask yourself, what do they know that we may have missed? For a company to be successful today you need a stable, settled workforce pulling together. It is a pointless exercise to continually seek to blame one segment of employees for the poor performance of the whole. Poor performance is an inverted tree in that it has its roots at the top through bad management and/or poor leadership. It makes no sense at all to lose all your experience at one go and think these guys can just be arbitrarily replaced by inexperienced, and in this case certainly, cheaper pilots. When Crandall at American brought in B scales he achieved what SAA now hope to achieve but the process there was gradual, had no political machinations and allowed experience to be retained. The difference was in management with foresight who know that what you do here today will effect where you are next year or five years down the line. What SAA are trying to do now will result in the baby being chucked out with the bath water. I agree wholeheartedly that SAA is not a flying club or benevolent society but I also dont think there is any sane, rational professional pilot, whether he be Captain or F/O, who thinks this is what he belongs to. We are talking about professional people who call themselves this because they truly strive towards these ideals and hey, if they have fun and enjoy their work, then so much the better. One is not professional because you earn money doing something, rather it is in the way one conducts oneself. I have never met an SAA pilot who conducted him/herself any other way. There is no quick fix and if Khaya&co think there is then they will soon be disillusioned. But I dont believe they really want a quick fix. I do believe the cover story runs deeper. The ideal answer is to get people into management who have some foresight, know what they are doing and are not scared to do it. But, we dont live in an ideal world and a lot of what needs to be done will not be popular and will not get votes for the ruling party. These are the puppet-masters who want to retain their own lavish lifestyles and therefore need the votes. I fear the pilots, being predominantly white males, are being sacrificed on the altar of expediency. It is expedient to the ideals of the ANC, who want to "transform" society. The pilots are the group which has been targeted to rush this transformation through. The social engineering experiment is not about righting wrongs from the past. It will carry on as long as it enjoys majority support and gets the votes. It will take a lot of convincing to make me believe the cover story being put forward currently. Look deeper, Khaya is a political appointee. Never forget who is paying him.

[Avi8tor]

these guys can just be arbitrarily replaced by inexperienced, and in this case certainly, cheaper pilots.
SAA's rather large pile of CV's is not made up of 200 hr pilots. Looking at the hired profile over the last couple of years, its been made up off guys that have 1000's of hours and many have had command before. SAA also has a huge pool of 8 to 14 yr co pilots that were hired in the boom of the mid '90's.

It is expedient to the ideals of the ANC, who want to "transform" society. The pilots are the group which has been targeted to rush this transformation throughSorry guys, but this is starting to sound like the rubbish we heard from the NP government of my childhood. From what I have read, all departments are up for some kind of chop.

I am NOT gonna argue the merits of trying to create 'newly advantaged', but the fact still remains that SAA is a bottomless pit. SAA can't up the revenue side of the equation, so it has to focus on the costs. Its very hard to make fuel any cheaper, aircraft leases are an internationally set cost.

So the next big cost is salaries.

[Jamex]

"I am NOT gonna argue the merits of trying to create 'newly advantaged', but the fact still remains that SAA is a bottomless pit. SAA can't up the revenue side of the equation, so it has to focus on the costs. Its very hard to make fuel any cheaper, aircraft leases are an internationally set cost."

Av8tor, I have no wish to enter into a mud-slinging match, or any other match for that matter, with you. I am simply excersizing my constitutionally guarenteed right to a free opinion. You make some interesting comments, so here are my comments on them. You dont need to argue the merits, its plain to see. All departments might be facing the chop but the "Glamour" department ie the one the politicians like to see their sons and cronies in, is the pilot pool. I did not intend this to be a political discussion, I was simply stating the obvious.
Please explain, why can't SAA up the revenue side? You can only push the cost issue to a point. Then you have to get positive and show some movement on the revenue side. Ideally, a company should always be watching costs while concentrating on improving revenues. There-in lies the problem with SAA. They have always seen the tax-payers as a bottomless pit and they have been careless with expenditure. Now they want to blame employees for this and expect them to take wholesale cuts while the cost of living is soaring. I guarentee you Khaya will not be taking any cut in salary. When he was asked on 702 a while ago about this issue, he ducked the issue and said his contract is in place and he will be paid according to this. Well, the pilots contracts and everybody elses contracts are also in place. Why should they be making the concessions when he clearly wont?
Fuel is a problem, I will concede that. But every other airline is faced with this same problem.
Surely, with an unstable currency like the ZAR it does not make sense to lease aircraft? Earning in Rands and spending in USD is a bad wicket to be batting on. There is nothing you can do to control currency fluctuations and life then becomes a gamble at best. Buy the aircraft when the currency is strong and selling them or even leasing to others when the currency is weaker makes a whole lot more sense.

[Avi8tor]

Having differing points of view and arguing your point is not called mud slinging, its called healthy debate. I support your rights to your views.

Please explain, why can't SAA up the revenue side?
The revenue side is made up of pax numbers x yields. Last time i looked, SAA's flights were largely full. Due to its high costs, SAA can't expand its way out of bankruptcy, cause the costs would increase quicker than the income. SAA tried that last time.

Its very hard to drive up yields when you have competition. Passengers are VERY price sensitive. The internet means that he/she can surf each airlines website and come up with the cheapest fare. So walk away from CDG/ZRH/LHR and fly to the S:mad:t holes in Africa where you can largely charge what you like, and in $$$$$. Its a good plan, but got trashed on these pages.

Surely, with an unstable currency like the ZAR it does not make sense to lease aircraft? Earning in Rands and spending in USD is a bad wicket to be batting on You are quite right, ask Airlink/SAX and SAA. All have seen their backsides with that trick. As its only Nationwide that has a big enough cash pile to buy old aircraft cash, all airlines are stuck in the same boat. But its very hard to borrow money locally, the interest rates in SA are relatively high. If in doubt, look at your bond this month.
So get your best finance and legal people and squeeze the manufacturer. RF scored an awesome deal on the J41's. Sadly it all went south when the ERJ's arrived.

Your other option is to stick with old low capital aircraft and pay the fuel bill. But at over $90 a barrel, thats a no brainer.

There is nothing you can do to control currency fluctuations and life then becomes a gamble at best. Buy the aircraft when the currency is strong and selling them or even leasing to others when the currency is weaker makes a whole lot more sense Good idea, but what would SAA do for aircraft then?

[Jamex]

Avi8tor, I like where this is going. To increase revenue with flights already full, you need to be increasing the number of flights. The old adage of throwing aircraft at the problem. SAA should have been acquiring more aircraft, more routes to operate them on, more crew to operate the aircraft, etc. They need to adopt an outward based philosophy instead of constantly looking inward. They need to be concentrating on long-haul, do away with domestic(there are enough other options in the domestic market, incl Mango) and getting inventive. Look at what Outsurance did for the insurance market. Think along these lines. In other words, think outside the box! The biggest problem at SAA is the ratio of personnel to aircraft in the fleet. These personnel could have been absorbed by steady growth 'sbefore things got out of hand. We have a problem in SA and that an unfortunate geographic position. To overcome this it would be necessary to create new opportunities. India-SA-Brazil is an ideal opportunity as, for the first time, SA is a gateway and not the end of the line. Look to the Middle and Far-East. The new opportunities (to expand)are there and not with the traditional North-South run and not by getting insular with Africa. The danger of becoming another regional carrier is too big. China is SA(and the worlds) biggest trading partner. The opportunities in pax and freight are there. I also tried to illustrate how SAA management have always been reactive and not proactive. Get people in there who are visionary and willing to work and take calculated risks and SAA CAN succeed. If SAA do not grab these opportunities, someone else will.

[Avi8tor]

The old adage of throwing aircraft at the problem. SAA should have been acquiring more aircraft, more routes to operate them on, more crew to operate the aircraft
I 100% agree, BUT you have to get the costs down first. If not, the cost increase quicker than the revenue increases. SAA have tried this approach before.

We have a problem in SA and that an unfortunate geographic position. To overcome this it would be necessary to create new opportunities. India-SA-Brazil is an ideal opportunity as, for the first time, SA is a gateway and not the end of the line
Again, an awesome grasp of the work, sure your not DJ under another name? As you say, SA is stuck at a spoke tip and not a major hub. EK already has god knows how many Indian destinations and have launched the Sao Paolo flight. SAA, with its current cost structure, could never compete.

SAA needs to get leaner and meaner before it can look to expand. But lets hope by then it will have shareholders not taxpayers.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

...an awesome grasp of the work, sure your not DJ under another name?

Hasn't been condescending or called anyone names, so can't be DJ.:}

[Jamex]

Definitely not DJ!! Promise!!

[boypilot]

Aviator you are one sad, confused puppy.

[Avi8tor]

Would you lower yourself to the level of us mere mortals and share some of your considerable wisdom with us BP?

Oh no wait, when you don't like what somebody says but you have NO argument, u get personal.

[fluffyfan]

Oh thank God.....someone who makes sense....Jamex, awsome post

Aviator, I have been frustrated by your posts because while you do have some merit in your argument your position seems to only apply to the pilots at SAA, let me ask you, were you so militant about the "overpaid Pilots" when you were at SAA.

Moving away from the current discussion perhaps you could explain the Cadet programme to us seeing as a while back you implied you had something to do with the whole thing (interviewing people etc), perhaps you can explain how white sons and daughters of relativley well off businessmen and training Captains managed to get into the cadet programme, the most glaring one that springs to mind is a young cadet who has a family of training Captains at SAA, the family also happens to own a small fleet of aircraft, the above mentioned cadet took full advantage of the Cadet programme, it cost the company x amount, once the training was over the cadet decided SAA was not the way and promptly left, only to regret the descision and attempt to get back in and I believe interview number 2 was conducted just the other day for the 3rd time.

You say you believe in giving the young people a chance and movement is good for all concerned, who's chance did you take away when you admitted the above mentioned cadet into the programme, it just seems that the whole cadet programme was a window dressing exercise and another way to screw the company into paying for someone who did not really need the help ......quite simply corruption and nepotisim.

You come across as the caped crusader for movement in the airline however the problems I have are that you seem to have 2 standards, one for yourself and one for everone else.

[Avi8tor]

Some very large leaps there friend, and some huge assumptions.

Think you have read into my posts what you want to see. I have said on a number of occasions that I think SAA is largely over paid and under worked, top to bottom. Pilots, Check-in staff etc. This is NOT about pilot bashing. My concerns of hyper pay increases and growing staff numers at SAA are a matter of record. I have warned that this would all end in tears. The standard response from pilots was "not to worry, the government will always pay, its SAA"

I will say it again for the record, I really hope that a privatised SAA makes a huge success and can pay all its staff a gazillion ZAR's.

I am largely very critical of the cadet program and have, in more than one post, called it expensive window dressing. The return on the investment is piss poor. The scheme should be to help the previously disadvantaged. It in NO way does that, the fact that a minister's nephew, the chairman of BP SA's son is paid for by the tax payer is truly pathetic. The fact that MOST of the white cadets have some connection to SAA makes the thing a joke. A 'means test' should be put in place, I told CR that after SAA1.

So again, lets stick to having good fun healthy debate on the BEST way forward. This concept that 'when I run out of argument, I attack the other guy on a personal level', thats very 4th grade playground stuff.

[Cpt. Underpants]

China is SA(and the worlds) biggest trading partner. The opportunities in pax and freight are there.

Factually correct, but SAA lacks the management skill set in every respect to make it happen. Competing with the likes of Cathay, Air China and SQ for market share in China is a non-starter. The bumbling inadequacies of SAA "management" may be tolerated in Africa, but every slip in the lucrative Asian market will be rapidly seized on by your competition and exploited to the max.

SAA haven't a hope if that's where they think their salvation lies.

[fluffyfan]

Yes....some large assumptions, I am possibly wrong with my idea of your identity, I do find it hard to believe that you took the moral stance while the Cadet programme was being abused under your nose. However I admit I do not know the whole story and I am possibly doing you an injustice with my implied accusations.........if this is so I apologise.

Lets just agree to disagree, the one thought that keeps recuring in my mind is that the pilots are not to blame for SAA's woes, the blame rests with management, the pilots just want a fair remuneration so that we dont have to look to other countries to make the most of ourselves, the union has possibly been too successful but I dont believe the pilots should pay the price of a failing SAA, it must be across the board and part of the negotiation at the moment are that management recieves no bonus whilst concessions are given...........the pilots are more than willing to negotiate, lets face it we are the ones who truly care about the long term health of the company its our careers, Khaya and his buddies will move on and plunder other organisations.

[SAASFO]

SAA has posted an R80 million net profit for the 6 months ending 30 September 2007. I guess they can afford the pilot's salaries and still make money :uhoh:

[asianeagle]

R80 mil net profit......................................with a little help from my friends tadadada:8!!!!!


Finance24
R744m SAA payout 'unforseen'
2007-10-30 14:45
Cape Town - Among the "unforeseeable and unavoidable" spending noted by Treasury halfway through the 2007/08 financial year is over R744m paid by the department of public enterprises to SA Airways. According to the 2007 Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure, tabled by Finance Minister Trevor Manuel on Tuesday, the department paid the national carrier R744.4m for "costs associated with restructuring (R653m plus R91.4m VAT)".
This was the single largest instance of unavoidable spending of the total R3.8bn noted in the document.


what now SAASFO!!

[SAASFO]

The R80 million excludes restructuring funding and is the operational profit after tax.

The restructuring funding has to do with buying the airline out of the myriad of onerous agreements and contracts entered into by previous management but has nothing to do with day to day operations.

[Avi8tor]

The R80 million excludes restructuring funding and is the operational profit after tax
None of that makes sense. Operating profit is the profit BEFORE cost of aircraft. So not a taxable amount anyway. That number would be WAY further down on the right hand side. So SAA could well have lost R744 mil and more.

Just to put that in to perspective, most airlines breakeven is about 50-55% load factor. I seem to remember seeing SAA load factor figure of 70%+. SAA should be printing cash.

[Oom Kaspaas]

Doesn't matter how much they print. pilots are earning too much for an african salary

[fly nice]

The profit before tax (PBT) was R80 million. If you add back the restructuring costs, the Nett profit is R136 million. The restructuring costs to date are R56 million. R909m is projected restructuring cost, so I don't know how the R744.4m fits in. I am not sure why SAASFO wrote 'operating' in his last post? Would be strange to account for restructuring and then PAY TAX, but not reflect your aircraft leases and other costs.

Aviator, I am pleased for you that your airline is so progressive. I have been to the roadshows, and have been tempted as it appears I could then have disposable income. I am also displeased by some disturbing actions that SAA management have taken. Some of their staff placements seem more like social engineering than skills retention. I have, however, made the decision to batten down the hatches and weather the storm. Amongst other reasons, family tradgedy (not crime) has made it impractical to move at this time, but it may be something that I could persue at another time. What I find equally disturbing is the glee that you seem to take in heralding your views of gloom. You must really have been done in by SAA or South Africa. I notice you spend an awful amount of time at this passion of yours. Your views are subjective. For instance, you ignore SAASFO's previous mention of Nett profit, but give us the 101 when he slipped out 'operating profit' in his last post.

I think many of us would be blown over with a feather if KN and his team deliver sustainable profits. It's not impossible and may just be happening. After all, the Webb Ellis trophy found these green pastures despite the political influences on the sport creating a few passengers on the bench.

So, I will keep holding EK in high regard. Perhaps you too should live and let live. SAA serves many masters and it is amazing that some wheels are still on. The restructuring is painful enough without vultures.:ok:

[square leg]

fly nice nice post!

[flyingoose]

Pilots are not earning to Much!, guys are quick to judge cause they are not at SAA! Cutting costs if needed should be across the the board and not only to a selected few!! Ceo is the first to cut certain benefits like first classe travel to Pilots but then books himself and the whole "familia" into first classe,! What a joke !, not to mention his wasting of SAA money by travelling by helicopter cause he doesnt want to sit in traffic!!!:yuk:

[Avi8tor]

The profit before tax (PBT) was R80 million. If you add back the restructuring costs, the Nett profit is R136 million. The restructuring costs to date are R56 millionAdd back restructuring cost? That again makes no sense. Are you sure what NETT and GROSS mean? Where do you get these numbers from? R744mill was by the Minister of Finance, I rather gather he MIGHT know where the country's money has been spent.

Your views are subjective. For instance, you ignore SAASFO's previous mention of Nett profit, but give us the 101 when he slipped out 'operating'Views subjective? All I did was reply to his post, which made no sense whatsoever.

You must really have been done in by SAA or South Africa. I notice you spend an awful amount of time at this passion of yours As I said to fluffy fan, you have made huge assumptions. ALL wrong by the way. I can happily say my time in SA was all good. My PASSION as you call it, is wanting to see the airline industry prosper in SA. This is NOT going to happen while the state is pouring endless funds into rather badly run, state controlled loss makers.

It truly amazes me that all the SAA types that post on here seem to assume the rest of us have some selfish agenda or a chip on our shoulder. Failing that, when they run out of ideas, they get into name calling. Maybe because they assume that everybody else functions the same way that they do? They seem to see NO wrong in SAA's cost structure.

Sorry gentlemen, and ladies, joining SAA should NOT be an entitlement to a ride on the gravy train for life. SAA is NOT a flying club.

[Oom Kaspaas]

Come on Av. By your age, if its correct,you were at SAA after parity. You rode the gravy train just fine while it suited you.

[777Contrail]

Well since SAA is making money now :rolleyes:, there shouldn't be any more stress out there.

No more lay-offs, no pay cuts.

All is safe and can continue as before.............

[AirwayBlocker]

By your you were at SAA after parity.


Say again......

[fluffyfan]

It truly amazes me that all the SAA types that post on here seem to assume the rest of us have some selfish agenda or a chip on our shoulder. Failing that, when they run out of ideas, they get into name calling. Maybe because they assume that everybody else functions the same way that they do? They seem to see NO wrong in SAA's cost structure.
Sorry gentlemen, and ladies, joining SAA should NOT be an entitlement to a ride on the gravy train for life. SAA is NOT a flying club.

No AV that is simply not true, most SAA types want a health well run airline, we do not like government subsidies, we want a healthy airline so that our careers are secure, however you seem to think the solution is cutting pilots salaries, well maybe thats part of the solution and you will find in the current negotiations that we are giving and negotiating concessions right now. My point is that its not the salaries that have brought us to this point, its horrific management, interference by the government and social engineering.....you only seem intent on attacking the pilots and our "huge Salaries".

I ask you this question again, were you this militant when you were here at SAA, and if not why not....remember we are your friends and countrymen you are attacking, my opinion is that we are possibly slightly overpaid at SAA but when you consider the country we live in and the things we have to provide for ourselves ie security, medical and the list goes on....you will knotice that we have very little disposable income left at the end of the day.

Its Not SAA pilots that are overpaid in SA, its the other guys like Comair and Nationwide who are underpaid. You should know that the Union has contantly been trying to advise management and help them run the airline....as you did with the Cadet programme, only for them to tell us to go and get F:mad: we are pilots and we should leave the management to them......well we have, and look where it has taken us, so your suggestion is that the pilots should now accept below industry normal salaries to try and correct there F:mad: up...........I fail to understand your logic

[nugpot]

Its Not SAA pilots that are overpaid in SA, its the other guys like Comair and Nationwide who are underpaid.

Fluffy, you were doing so well until you got to the sentence above. I don't give a continental when you use smoke and mirrors to explain to your company how much money you are worth, but don't you dare tell me what I should negotiate with my company.

Some of us know what relative lifestyle an airline pilot should have and specifically what the wage gap between the flight deck crew and the rest of the company personnel generates in terms of bad vibes. The cockpit is not in an airline alone........

[Oom Kaspaas]

Enough with the social engineering whinge. we taught them how to do it and now they are showing us how well they learnt.

as a government organization it will be used to get the numbers right. as a private concern they will have to comply with BEE rules. This is a fact of life.

I dont have time for this. I'm in the f:mad:ing sim later today

[777Contrail]

The guys (and girls) at SAA are not overpaid by industry standards.

They ARE overpaid by bussiness standards.

A bankrupt company cannot pay staff industry standard salaries. Yet they do. That's what's wrong!

If SAA was a well run, unsubsidised profit making airline I would have supported an even better pay package for the pilots.

The SAA pilots are right to expect industry standard pay - just not from their present employer.

Their present employer has no right to exist, not to mention compete with the rest of the world's remuneration.

Make no mistake, I would love for SAA to be a world leader and make us all proud.

But that's just not going to happen.....................

[777Contrail]

Nugpot, you sell yourself short!

Remember the old nursery song?

"I am special, I am special......."


So many pilots are actually believing what their management have been telling them for the last 20 years, that they don't know their own worth and wouldn't ask for the pay & respect they deserve.

[fly nice]

Avman, you did not disappoint me. Last night I went fishing and even I was surprised that you bit so soon. There must really be very little else to do when the sand gets too hot to play in. If your devotion to this site is typical amongst your peers, then I had better do more research before looking into the move for myself. And by that, I don't mean gleaming the PruNe for info. Is it just you, or is that the way it is there?
On the other hand, Oz and others are believed to be heading this way looking for rugby coaches, experienced pilots and other useful things.....

[fly nice]

Do you mind if I say Avman rather. Aviator reminds me of that movie of that wealthy, eccentric, senile recluse they portrayed Mr Hughes to be.

R744mill was by the Minister of Finance, I rather gather he MIGHT know where the country's money has been spent.



Perhaps that is all the minister is aware of at this point? A little bird whispered R909m, so that may not be gospel. My point was alluding to more than R56m before you got too focussed on that!


All I did was reply to his post


His last post. A grade 2 teacher would have taken the time to spot the incongruety with his previous post and after a second's thought, made the correct and logical assumption that the word 'operating' was used in error. He did mention TAX in his previous post and TAX is not paid on operating profit. I know it's been a while since you last paid tax (not VAT) though.:}

As I said to fluffy fan, you have made huge assumptions. ALL wrong by the way. I can happily say my time ...

Then it must be boredom, coupled with an insatiable desire to stick your finger up other peoples noses. Why don't you rather get married, or get a dog or something.

Take a few deep breaths and a little time. It will all come to you if you just pay a little attention:ok:

ps. Will only be back on PruNe in a week or so, so you don't have to act on any sudden urges to immediately respond, react, whatever.

[777Contrail]

Hi all check this out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tckuypdwlCA&NR=1

"All you want to do is use me!"

[RSQ]

Hi Nugpot - is SAA only open to SA citizens?
Kak idea it seems to me, - our citizens work all over the world due to "their high standards of training", methinks then SAA should be open to all.
Now that would be an eye opener for the management boys - open it up and see how many first world pilots rush to work here !
"Robyn Chalmers, the head of communications at SAA, said the onerous conditions of employment implemented in the past had contributed to SAA's high cost base." I thought having a few thousand ground staff standing around doing very little contribute to the high cost base.
The implication here is that the pilots are overpaid and are not worth their money.
Well Lady - go take a whole bunch of contract King Air and 1900 drivers,
(who are gagging for the jobs) train them, stick them into the seats and get rid of those "onerous conditions"!!
As a matter of interest, it would be enlightening to see how many ground staff SAA has per aircraft as opposed to other airlines with similar operations,

[Avi8tor]

Then it must be boredom, coupled with an insatiable desire to stick your finger up other peoples noses. Why don't you rather get married, or get a dog or something

I love it when they run out of ideas, they get personal. Like they did in grade2. I really get a kick out of it. Wonder if he has a small......................car?
remember we are your friends and countrymen you are attackingDoes it EVER occur to you that there is an aviation industry OUTSIDE SAA?

[fluffyfan]

nugpot . I don't give a continental when you use smoke and mirrors to explain to your company how much money you are worth, but don't you dare tell me what I should negotiate with my company.


You know what they say Nuggs........you pay peanuts...you get monkeys

Good for you boet that you are happy with what Comair or whoever you work for pays, you are possibly in a very small minority, because most of my friends working for Comair, Nationwide...are Getting the F:mad: out of this country asap, not because they want to but because they want to earn enough money to have a decent life.

AV...my old friend
Does it EVER occur to you that there is an aviation industry OUTSIDE SAA?
yes it has occured to me, and I see that world every day in my job......however I dont happen to want to leave SA, I dont want to have to live in the desert to make ends meet......is that ok with you?

[Avi8tor]

however I dont happen to want to leave SA, I dont want to have to live in the desert to make ends meet......is that ok with youThats perfectly ok, as long as the taxpayer isn't subsidsing your lifestyle at the expense of the rest of the industry. That seems to be where the problem lies.

[fluffyfan]

777Contrail
Their present employer has no right to exist, not to mention compete with the rest of the world's remuneration.

Well 777 seeing as SAA is one of the oldest Airlines in the world I think they do have a right to exist, and had things been done correctly we would be a world leader.

Make no maistake 777 and AV if you think Emirates is not subsidised you are horribly mistaken, it must be easy to run an airline with free oil.....I am looking forward to the day that the oil wells run dry and you guys have to survive like the rest of us, maybe then you can go to the middle east forum and bitch about your woes instead of finding us here on the African forum and trying to justify your move to the desert

[thincatblue]

I fail to understand Avi8tor's issues with the SAA pilots- why do you blame us for the "so called" over-payment for our services. These were negotiated over time with a lot of blood, sweat and tears from SAAPA and the negotiating teams -Management was present you know? but I am sure that you know the history?

Your issues must be surely with the bad management that has run SAA into the ground, not once but 3 times (counting post 94) Also your blogs should go to the ANC run goverment that continually interfered with the operation of this airline. Just because we stayed strong and negotiated good deals amongst these good promises and bad executions by management/goverment should not now be held over our heads?- we are being paid what is market related! no more or less! and this was acieved by good negotiation skills and unity between the pilot group.

Hey, maybe you are one of "THEM"? from the goverment/management?- yup -that must be it judging by your obsession with these SAA/SA -pilots forums. You are obviously posted by "THEM" to try and salvage some concessions that "THEY" can't negotiate themselves in the normal negotiating forums. Bring everyone down to the lowest common demominator if you can't compete on the higher lever?

Your cover is blown Avi8tor- your location is probably in Pretoria or Kemptonpark. Were you MK trained or was it by the communists in Cuba? Anyway comrade Avi8tor, viva saa pilots viva!!!:ok:

[fluffyfan]

The way I see it Av and 777 is that I pay nearly half of my "over Inflated" salary to the tax man, at least I contribute to the society I live in, you guys live there tax free contibuting nothing to anyone but yourselves and you have the cheek to wave the flag for the tax payer....yes call me cynical but seems to me the only selfish Bastards (there does not seem to be a moderator these days) out there are the guys living abroad tax free

[thincatblue]

PS Oom kaspaas - get back under your rock - let the adults talk sensibly.
I am off to bed, alone alas, damn night stop!

[Avi8tor]

the middle east forum and bitch about your woes instead of finding us here on the African forum and trying to justify your move to the desertTrying to deflect the issues WONT make them go away. As somebody that still is a citizen and a taxpayer(yeah, I do more than drive buses) I have every right to comment on SAA.

Were you MK trained or was it by the communists in Cuba? Anyway comrade Avi8tor, viva saa pilots viva How did you figure me out? You are quite right, I am the 'red under the bed'. You worked for the NP's national intelligence didn't you?

SAA is one of the oldest Airlines in the world I think they do have a right to exist, and had things been done correctly we would be a world leaderIt wasn't, and you aren't. SAA is a bankrupt 3rd world airline, with delusions. I say again, SAA is NOT a flying club.

I say again, get the industry on a level playing field. If SAA doesn't make it, so be it. Open the door for somebody that can. We, as pilots, will be better off.

[777Contrail]

Fluffyfan,

The age of an entity does not give it a right to exist.

In nature, the older you are, the closer to death you get.

It's the old thing about addapt or die. SAA has shown over the last 15 years that they cannot addapt. The bussiness is a dinosour and if it doesn't change, and I mean drastically, it must go extinct.

If you read my posts again you'll see, I think the SAA pilots are compensated rightly. If you take the environment they live and work into acount, I'll even say they're underpaid.

BUT. SAA cannot pay those sallaries.

SAA a world leader?!! Don't make me laugh! If they are well run they can at best be a good regional airline. SA isn't located geographically to be a through-hub like Dubai, and the population is too small for the country to be a major central-hub.

Talking about Emirates.

They isue a far more complete set of results every year (on time mind you), than any SAA ever cooked up.

Even though they are privately owned and do not have to isue ANY results.

Go have a look here: http://www.ekgroup.com/AnnualReports/Index.asp

[Oom Kaspaas]

thincatblue. deal with it, it's payback time. Viva ANC viva.

Av. enjoy reading your posts, and agree to some extent with some of what you say. Doesn't it bug you that no one gets it. maybe the lobotomy thing is correct.

When you join SAA, they tell you on the orientation week. " You guys must have doubled your salaries just by being here. then you go on a night stop and they throw more money at you. You cant even spend it all. "

So maybe its time to throw some of that money back at the company so they can survive.

[fluffyfan]

Oom Doesn't it bug you that no one gets it. maybe the lobotomy thing is correct.

Same here, no matter what we say nobody seems to get it, we seem to be going around in circles.

I am bored of this :zzz:

As I said 777 its easy to make money, build Islands, huge buildings etc when you drill a hole and oil flows out the ground for free, just enjoy the desert while you are there, seems you have problems too 30% inflation, traffic problems and a stengthening Rand, hope you enjoy it, I will take my chances here, if the restructuring works SAA can only go up.

SA isn't located geographically to be a through-hub like Dubai, and the population is too small for the country to be a major central-hub.

Who is talking about SA being a Hub? we are a destination, in fact the SA economy makes more money on tourism than it does through Gold production.....so although its all gloom and doom at the moment and who is surprised it happens to every airline that goes through restructuring...there is hope

[Oom Kaspaas]

Fluf I agree with you. this is now boring. lets start a Comair bashing thread, Maybe everyone will leave SAA alone for a short while. very much doubt it though.

Oof to sim again :mad:

[sayswho]

FluffyFan (guess your name refers to your wifes little white poodle) because you aint got 'Attitude' as a boeing man would

My comment is rather you leave the tax free subject alone. I suspect you have very little or no knowledge at all on what you are talking about. What do you do with your forex that you dont use? yeah thought as much so rather shut up about being an upstanding member of the S.African community doing the right thing by the tax man.
I wonder how PRO SAA you would continue to be if they dumped your ass right outa there?

Hay, ever thought one day you might be waving goodbye to the wife and kids on your way to the desert (sorry and fluffy)

[B Sousa]

Hey Flufster
Give 777 a break, there are probably more South Africans flying in the Sandpit than there are flying out of Tambo Town.

[ZERO3L]

Following all these various threads about the future of SAA and its crews brings out a common thread. Those who are worried about their jobs(SAA crews) and those who obviously are not SAA employers.
What I find difficult to comprehend is the attitude of those who are clearly trying to defend their positions, and SAA, in these interesting times.
Having never worked there -or applied to join them, I get the feeling that they are a greedy bunch who are not prepared to negotiate their highly inflated salaries-in the South African context, that is.
When a company is bankrupt and only surviving due to it being a national carrier, with government support(and plenty of it), its irrelevant how hard they fought for their current package etc etc-times are tough. Face the reality of it-stop blaming management and negotiate a realistic salary package or move on.
If their salaries were not so drastically out of kilter with the rest of SA, it would be a different story.
I find it difficult to sympathise, given the hard facts. We all have friends working there and we all know how much you earn-give or take a thousand or two.
I see BA announced profits today of 580 million pounds odd....interesting.
Havent ever seen figures like that from SAA except when Coleman sold the 737-200's to Safair and leased them back.
I'm not trying to nail SAA pilots but their predicament is pretty obvious to everyone except themselves.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

...and a strengthening Rand...

More like a weakening US Dollar, Fluffy. Subtle difference....:ok:

[777Contrail]

Fluffyfan,

I've given you the link to go and check for yourself how the Emirates Airline and the Emirates group is run, but you obviously decided to ignore that and continue with your ignorance.

For your info, Dubai never had much oil and what they had is all but used already. But unlike Africa the ruling family decided to use what they've got and build something more.

Emirates started 22 years ago with 2 leased aircraft and US$30mil.
(So you'll say they're not old enough to count)

For the 30mil investment the "family" received US$2,1Bil back.

The main difference between Emirates and other airlines are:
1. Aircraft utilisation. 25% Saving
2. Tax free work force. 30%+ Saving

This makes them the second best airline when comparing cash cost per seat/airmile. Only Ryanair is lower cost based.

Up to now I tried to stay with the topic but you insisted on straying into the sand all the time.

The guys that's still with SAA are the last ones to MENTION state funding.

Now back to the topic.

There's a war of atrition coming worldwide. Some shots have been fired already and in SA the blood will flow.

It's al about the last airline left to operate (have enough pilots).

I feel Comair have the will and setup to win out.

They will just have to start looking after their crew.

Show them the money!

[Avi8tor]

Guys, were off the topic. If I live in Jumeira or Waterkloof at present, who cares. South Africa is where most of our hearts are.

South Africa needs a HEALTHY strong airline industry. The guts of it is we need to level the playing field. Let the airline/airlines with the best business model win out. BA has announced awesome profits, they fly out of JNB, so do Virgin.

It says that SAA is going something very wrong. As I said in the previous post, SAA has awesome loads and market yields, so that leaves costs to tackle.

"....never in the field of human endeavor, have so many done so little for so much".

The golden rule in airlines is that you never have more staff than u have seats in your aircraft. I did the exercise pax'ing to CT, when I was there on holiday last, and around 9500 seats.
Once you have the numbers right, get the salaries inline with what people in SOUTH AFRICA will work for. The government says the unemployment number is like 25%, but I would guess closer to 40%.

Once SAA stops looking like a basket case, PRIVATISE!!! Then the shareholders will throw out piss poor management. You maximise profits by growing the airline. Then SAA can step up to the plate and get a chance to bat against EK, VS, BA etc.

[eish]

Afrikaans Sunday paper Rapport reports today on the whole SAA issue and in the article it is mentioned that Mike Malherbe has resigned to join an Oz airline as chief training captain. What a loss for SAA!

[Avi8tor]

I agree, a sad loss. MM is one of the brightest people I know. But he and C have been out of SAA before. The world didn't come crashing down. It will give somebody else a chance to shine. Lets NOT be scared of movement in the industry.

[s2h]

World hunts SA pilots
Nov 05 2007 08:01 AM
Nellie Brand - Sake24 and Lizel Steenkamp - Rapport
Cape Town - South African Airways (SAA) is prepared to lose a third of its pilots to restructuring - well knowing that there is a big shortage of trained pilots worldwide and that it will not be able to replace the highly skilled group.SAA itself had described the possible retrenchment of 224 pilots as "a nightmare scenario", but the good news was that talks with the unions had progressed so well that the move could possibly be averted.
But Robyn Chalmers, head of SAA Corporate Affairs, added that should the talks "lead to absolutely no savings, SAA would consider retrenching (the pilots)".
Fin24's sister publication Rapport said role-players in the industry were dumbstruck by SAA's plans to retrench up to 225 of its 783 pilots, while 12 000 posts were being advertised worldwide.
The proposed retrenchments were part of SAA's restructuring plans to cut its labour costs by R638m.
Captain Jimmy Conroy, chairperson of SAA Pilots' Association (Saapa), said since SAA's restructuring plans became public, foreign airlines pounced on South Africa for its pilots.
The Dubai airline Emirates, looking for 450 pilots, had already held five promotional tours in South Africa.
Cathay Pacific of Hong Kong needs 200 pilots and also they came to recruit in South Africa.
Bhabhalazi Bulunga, SAA Manager: Human Resources, confirmed that nine pilots had already resigned and that another eleven had accepted retrenchment packages.
Conroy said pilots - with an average 23 years' experience - were uncertain of their future with SAA.
"If they go, the country will be losing highly trained people who are very difficult to replace," said Conroy.
To train one pilot costs at least R700 000 and it takes about 13 years for a pilot to be promoted to captain.
Conroy said although SAA could save money in the short term, there would be dire consequences in the long term.
"If our own pilots leave because they don't see a long-term future for themselves here, we'll have to go and recruit on the international market. Firstly, you don't know what you are getting, and secondly you have to pay them in euros or dollars."
- Sake24/Rapport

[Zabian]

It seems as if Bhabhalazi will never sober up:ugh:
It's so scary to think that we are losing the best experienced pilots.
This exodus is gonna have a bad ripple effect.
Zabian

[Avi8tor]

To train one pilot costs at least R700 000 and it takes about 13 years for a pilot to be promoted to captainThere in lies the problem at SAA. Too higher training cost and 13yrs to command!!!!!

No shortage of pilots in SA, ask all the guys stuck on contract.

[propdrop]

It's so scary to think that we are losing the best experienced pilots

I am not taking you on here, i just sincerely hope that you are not under the illusion that SAA have the best experiences pilots? They are not the best in the sky. To be frank, RSA is loosing all of its best pilots from all carriers (i suspect this is what you meant), and why not, if the big dogs out there start forking out the big money for pilots, why the ..... should they not take the best. Regardless of where they got their wings. Personally i think the 'best' experienced pilots are hanging around at NW, flying V's old machines under pressure, and having to deal with non - standard (call it SIM type) situations regularly.

[SAASFO]

Avi8tor, do you know what a training snake is? If one senior long range Captain leaves, then you must train a short range Captain to replace him, then train a long range senior FO to replace the short range Captain, train a short range FO for a long range FO position, and a relief pilot for the short range replacement, and then bring in a newbie and train him (or her or it) for a relief pilot position.

R700,000 is probably conservative for all that training in a career, unless you fly for Nationwide where you paid for your own rating! :rolleyes: