NJS Pilots - 97% vote for Protected Industrial Action

[ITCZ]

Results of secret ballot of NJS pilots:

97% YES

.....to all 10 forms of industrial action approved by AIRC Senior Deputy President Lacy.

NJS pilots can now take legal, protected, industrial action in pursuit of their claim for a decent collective agreement.

They can choose whichever of the 10 methods to use as they desire, at a time of their choosing.

1. 4 hour stoppages.
2. 24 hour stoppages.
3. 48 hour stoppages.
4. Overtime bans.
5. Callout and callback bans.
6. Refusal of roster changes inside 7 days.
7. Refusal of duty extensions (NJS operates under the CAO 48 exemption).
8. Refuse to fly aircraft carrying defects (operating under OMEL, manufacturer Configuration Deviation List, PUS provisions).
9. Refuse to wear the uniform.
10. Refuse to use personal telephones for company contact and/or company business (therefore uncontactable for crewing shortages, etc)

NJS pilots are warmed up and ready to play. A full bag of clubs, and the TWU as their caddy, veterans of many successful tours.

After years of 'gentlemans' discussions, NJS pilots got nowhere. They said "Hey, start paying attention. There is a shortage, your pilots are sick of this. We don't want more money, we just want our terms and conditions honoured."

NJS thought - Idle threat. Pilots will fold, again. Its just a noisy minority, the usual suspects. They never organised themselves properly in the past!

Pilots joined TWU in droves. 80% membership within a month or two.
:ouch:

NJS thought - Hmm. Oh well, anyone can join a union. They wont push for industrial action. Its just not their way.

Pilots applied to AIRC for protected industrial action.
:ouch::ouch:

NJS thought - Hmm. Don't worry, we can oppose the application on the grounds of damage to the economy and third party interests.

Senior Deputy President Lacy approved the Industrial Action.
:ouch::ouch::ouch:

NJS thought - Hmm. Not so good. But we will request 7 days notice of any action. We are a special case - australia's specialist aviation service company!

Senior Deputy President Lacy said - your arguments are "short on detail and unconvincing." You are a normal aussie business. Standard notice period only.
:ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch:

NJS thought - Don't worry. Pilots will never vote it up. They'll be too worried about their jobs!

Pilots overwhelmingly vote in favour of all ten proposed action items.
:ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch:


Hey, NJS, how many times do you roll the dice before you work out you are LOSING?!?!?

[MinimaNoContact]

A combination of all 10 would be nice! Fancy dress would be interesting though... any suggestions? :}

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

A combination of all 10 would be nice! Fancy dress would be interesting though... any suggestions?I suggest "wigs". Afro's are good.
Seriously, good luck to NJS crews in achieving your goals.:ok:

Don't back down.

[Spad]

Gee, 97% eh?

Now that's a familiar figure to quite a few people from that-year-we-dare-not-mention-here.

(Just in case there's someone out there who needs a translation: 97% was the percentage of pilots who voted who were in favour of industrial action back in 198tynine.)

[MinimaNoContact]

Yeah but not one will be 'resigning' this time... the beauty of PIA.

[Icarus2001]

97% is a pretty solid result for ALL ten questions. What were the absolute numbers, that is, how many actually voted?

[Mr. Hat]

Waiting for Pas A Frozo and Aircraft to kick this thread along....:ugh:

[ITCZ]

97% is a pretty solid result for ALL ten questions. What were the absolute numbers, that is, how many actually voted?
Voting papers were sent by the AEC to all NJS Pilots that were both (a) TWU members and (b) on expired AWAs. TWU coverage at NJS is over 80% of line pilots. Around 55% of pilots are on expired AWA, that is, the nominal expiry date of the AWA has passed and a new agreement is due. New hires and recent command upgrades/fleet changers are on current AWA.

Vote was conducted strictly in accordance with the rules (Workplace Relations Act 1996, as amended by "WorkChoices") and overseen by an independent government agency (AEC = Australian Electoral Commission, Adelaide office).

Vote was by secret ballot. No 'peer pressure' by asking for a show of hands at a meeting. I don't know what happened back in eightee9, but this one was a government ballot paper, completed in the privacy of the pilot's home, straight into a sealed envelope to the AEC.

The vote would have been carried if at least 50% of eligible pilots had voted and returned at 50%+1 in favour. The fact that 100% of eligible pilots voted, no donkey votes, no votes discarded due to incorrect marking or not following voting instructions, giving a result of 97% in favour of ALL proposed actions, prompted an involuntary response of "Remarkable!" from a seasoned industrial player!

There is a clear message here. The NJS pilots have stuck religiously to the rules. The WorkChoices rules were designed by prominent right-wing lobbyists, legal, and industrial specialists to eliminate all possible 'undesireable' union influence and persuasive tactics. Many NJS pilots that would like to have voted "yes" were excluded by their current AWA status.

This result is cleaner than a whistle. 2 pilots dissenting out of 70+ eligible to vote. The lunatic fringe will make their hysterical arguments... they will just have to wait until a Fascist party puts up some candidates for Federal parliament.

In the meantime, NJS senior management is having a "real world" experience. They didn't listen to their 'gentlemans' Pilot Groups, they didn't heed the warnings of their Flight Operations people, they didn't wake up and smell the coffee.

Time for NJS to stop its posturing, and come to the table.

Lets talk.

[Kransky]

:D :D :D
Funny, isnt it? If someone hadnt been so keen to push Far Horizons :yuk: up the pilots :mad:es a year ago theyd still all be on AWA.

[aircraft]

Waiting for Pas A Frozo and Aircraft to kick this thread along....I need to know something first...

What is it that is hoped will be achieved? This statement from ITCZ didn't actually make sense:

NJS pilots can now take legal, protected, industrial action in pursuit of their claim for a decent collective agreement.

[Keg]

If you can't work it out from ITCZ's first post then you're obviously not smart enough to be commenting further anyway. :rolleyes:

Back in your box.

[wessex19]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUvEouWA29o

:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

9. Refuse to wear the uniform.

What? No ties? WTF am I going to pin my long-service medal to?? :{

ps: Keg 1, Aircraft 0. :ok:

[Jenna Talia]

This statement from ITCZ didn't actually make sense:


Quote:
NJS pilots can now take legal, protected, industrial action in pursuit of their claim for a decent collective agreement.


Where are your brains aircraft? :ugh::rolleyes:

[DUXNUTZ]

Good luck guys.

[ScottyDoo]

A combination of all 10 would be nice! ... any suggestions

Yes don't forget your clackers!

Hey Pakistan-Air-Airforce, better warm up the Hercs and the frozos..... :p

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Why couldn't the AFAP do this ?.

[RENURPP]

Why couldn't the AFAP do this ?.
Cause its all toooo hard.
:mad: :mad::mad::} :} :}

[onya]

Can't help but think that this action will be the first turn of the worm in this shortage of experience that is becoming very apparent.

Best of luck to all at NJS.

:ok:

[remoak]

Hmmm let's see... 55% on expired AWAs. Let's be generous and assume that 90% of them were TWU members. Of those, 97% were in favour... well I don't know how many pilots are in NJS, but by my math, that isn't even a majority of pilots in NJS who voted yes. So the 97% figure would appear to be an ever-so-slight distortion of the real picture. Could be wrong though. Somebody enlighten me...

[RENURPP]

Probably close to 50% of total NJS pilots voted.
The other 50% were not entitled to vote as they are on current AWA's.
Work No Choices :yuk:
To make it clear, 1 voted No and 1 donkey vote.

[Toolman101]

Any timeline on when the first action is due to take place?

Will it be a gradual start or straight in with both hobnail boots :E

good luck with the action:ok:

[Talkwrench]

Good onya to the NJS Pilots. I hope you guys can strike a fair and equitable agreement out of your action. The QF LAMES are watching on with interest as their agreement negotiations teeter on the brink of Protected Industrial Action. All the best and Good Luck!

[Whitney]

Any timeline on when the first action is due to take place
wouldn't that give the game away a little bit too soon?

[Brasilian Bird]

Go get 'em!!! :ok:

Now while 'no uniforms' (at all) would be a sight to see, we don't want to scare off the pax!! :}

Would love to see a combo of all 10. No use of 'private telephones' -PRICELESS! Clap on the back for whoever came up with that one! If they invoke that, NJS will have to pony up and buy everyone a phone if they want to be able to call them... yeah right!! And like anyone would answer it anyway! :E

Will be watching with interest... this has the potential to cause big waves around the place... knock-on effects to other carriers who use their services and so forth... XR better brace themselves as well!

[flyingfox]

Remoak. The TWU membership is probably about 75% (and rising) of all Company pilots and almost all of those have voted for industrial action at various meetings, even though they can't join in. Some others feel similarly but don't wish to join the TWU. ALL in all, feeling for the industrial action is very high amongst the NJS Pilots who couldn't vote this time. It isn't 100% support, but you will never get that from a group of individualist pilots. This result makes the AFAP's 'bleatings' that nothing could be done to influence NJS management look absolutely pathetic. The AFAP need a clean out of 'time servers' who no longer have the motivation or energy to kick goals for pilots.

[The Kavorka]

And so it begins...

good luck guys/gals, it's about time someone made some noise, let's hope the east coast is listening!!!!

[Gateway Customer]

Is the goal here to abolish all AWA's and have everyone on a collective agreement?

What is the plan for current new pilots who are on AWA's? Will they get brought up to the A scale pay?

I am new to this discussion and would like to know specific goals.

PM me if you like.

GC

[travelator]

Check PM, you sure you not Wongai customer?

[Toolman101]

wouldn't that give the game away a little bit too soon?

Only if you gave them the specific course of action, ie 4 hours stoppage, as it is I believe you have to give them notice that an action is going to take place on a particular date. So they will know its coming but not what

if I'm wrong on this assumption, I'm sure someone with more knowledge will correct me:ok:

[neville_nobody]

XR better brace themselves as well!

What for?? All the charter work they're about to get from cancelled flights??
I don't think would be too many unhappy campers over at XR.

[Icarus2001]

The QF LAMES are watching on with interest as their agreement negotiations teeter on the brink of Protected Industrial Action.
it's about time someone made some noise, let's hope the east coast is listening!!!!

People, I think EVERY aviation "manager" in Australia is watching this VERY closely, the ramifications are significant for everyone.

With a federal election campaign in full swing :rolleyes: both major parties will also be watching very carefully, both will no doubt claim that this PIA proves their own case!

Good luck and stick together :ok:

[williamsf1]

No! me go gateway, u go wongai!....

Bravo to the boys and girls at NJS! I can't think of a better time to be pushing for better T & C ....

[amos2]

So, let me get this straight!...

97% of half the NJS pilots voted for industrial action...

is that correct?

and, if so, does that mean that the other half (50%) will continue working?...

as what?...scabs, or simply not involved?

Someone like to enlighten me about this new form of industrial action?

[Keg]

One of our guys posted this on Qrewroom. I don't know his background or how accurate the information is. I put it here to provide context and that's it.

Protected industrial action can’t be taken “as they desire, at a time of their choosing”. At least 3 days written notice must be given to the employer stating the starting date and the nature of the intended action. – s441 WRA. This has to be quite specific. A list of possible types of action to be taken some time in the future is unlikely to be specific enough. – Telstra v CPSU case.

There are more potential problems if there are unprotected persons (non-employees or their representatives basically) involved in the action, if the action is in support of prohibited content (doesn’t take much to trigger this one!) or if any orders or directions of the AIRC are not complied with.

It’s basically a very big exercise in dotting “i”s and crossing “t”s. Effective and competent representation is essential. The TWU should be right on top of all of this. It’s a good demonstration of the vital role that unions have to play especially now with the massive imbalance that exists between employers and employees under the current IR laws.

It’s also worth noting that under s507 of the WRA it is illegal for an employer to pay an employee who is undertaking any sort of industrial action AND it’s also illegal for an employee to accept payment from an employer. So for example – if they require you to wear a uniform and you don’t – it doesn’t matter that you’ve still gone to work and done all the things required of you – it’s illegal for them to pay you or for you to accept payment!

Amos, if a crew isn't legally allowed to go on strike then I'm not going to label them a scab if they choose to work. They can be held personally liable for any illegal industrial action. Besides, even with half the crews working it'll still leave NJS in a bind.

[amos2]

ok!...so, how does this all fit in with the Vic nurses dispute going on at the moment? And will any NJS action be in the same vein as theirs?

[RENURPP]

1/2 NJS Pilots are on expired AWA's the other half are on current AWA's.
The Vic nurses are on EBA's I believe, they all expired at the same time. diiferent story. Work No Choices at its best.

[QFinsider]

Game on....:E

Hang tough guys and girls, this is the watershed

[Capt Claret]

Amos,

Under work [no]choices, only persons on an expired AWA can apply to take PIA. In this case only TWU members on expired AWAare eligible to vote for, and take PIA. That's the law that so many voted for 3+ years ago. :{

[amos2]

Absolute Nonsence!

[Capt Claret]

Good argument there Amos, so eloquently put.

[2p!ssed2drive]

Good on you guys and girls at NJS

May this be the start of making piloting in Australia a career to aspire towards.... :ok:

I heard from a good mate in NJS that management will be sh!++ing their pants and will just 'come to the party' -- lets hope

[amos2]

I was actually agreeing with you Claret...that the system is nonsence!

[blaster666]

Well done my colleagues for your unity. I am neither a new pilot or a member of The Wan#!ers Umbrella and not covered by the threatened action as I preferred to sit down and discuss what NJS needed for me to give THEM so they could give ME an AWA over 5 years to keep pace (outrun) the inevitable growth of CPI under the ALP (NOTE: that is not criiticism of the ALP but will be a fact).

So I understand the chestbeaters now have legal permission to go along with their rhetoric but what is it they want other than a TWU logo on their document - and what are they willing to give so they won't send their company under along the way ???????????????

No.....hang on......you are allowed to wear what you want instead of a uniform so why not just on strike AND wear your costume of choice (which I am sure will be a clown suit with a big red nose) so you can audition for your next job at the same time !!!

Seriously though - good luck in any case - I understand why you are doing what you are doing - just don't think you need to be doing it. :ok:

[RENURPP]

I am off to "Penny's" fancy dress hire right now.

[Capt Claret]

Dear Mr Blaster, with the greatest respect, the mere fact that you have to resort to the rhetoric you do, suggests that your argument is flaccid and without foundation.

[blaster666]

Dear Mr Claret - with return respect, I did not think it was rhetoric but a simple question = "what do you want"

[amos2]

I thought that was rather obvious, but I'll spell it out just for you...

M.O.N.E.Y

[flyingfox]

You're such a 'wit' blaster!?

[Pharcarnell]

Personally FF, I think you've got the assessment 1/2 right.

[flying-spike]

I know this has probably come up before but...What are the current NJS/QLINK conditions and what is being sought?
Please, rational informed comment only.

[Lord Flashhart]

Come on 5DOGS, spill the beans, what have you heard in the hallowed halls?

AMOS2, since you did it twice I assume it is genuine ignorance versus a typo- it is NONSENSE not NONSENCE.

[ScottyDoo]

Anos I knew you'd say something funny one day....

M.O.N.E.Y

I like it! :ok:


Shame about the nonsence though.......:suspect:

[amos2]

Well, well, well, I'm actually on your side re NJS and what you're trying to achieve, even tho your cause means nothing to me personally.

Might have to change my mind about that if you're going to act like pathetic, pedantic little G/A pricks!!

And I stand corrected, by the way.

[Capn Bloggs]

Blaster,

what are they willing to give

What did YOU give?

[Icarus2001]

Those assets would possibly be purchased by a company that was interested in actually running an air service company. If the airframes were still flying (as they would be in the West as nothing viable to replace them at a similar cost structure) then the engineers, cabin crew and pilots would still find work.
Cobham never really wanted NJS/QL they wanted the surveillance work as it aligns with the Cobham group core business.
Whichever way this goes NJS will change hands in the next two years. Probably a good thing, to be owned by someone with air service experience. Cobham do not have this experience and have had the wool pulled over their eyes by an ego driven and very ambitious CEO who is using his FIRST management job as a springboard into bigger and better things.

http://www.cobham.co.uk

[Gunnadothat]

Just got info that "due to unforeseen circumstances a 146 has been grounded (not my words, but from someone else) at Murrin and ... a replacement aircraft has been sourced"
No info as to why yet from my source.......:confused:

[Charliethewonderdog]

Not a blacklist - just assessing people based on their previous actions.
What about managements previous actions???????
Everyone gets held to account at some stage for their actions and is judged on them.
So we should just sit back and let threats like those keep us from getting what we deserve??? lets just keep getting screwed.

Be it in a court for some things or in the opinion of others.
It's funny you mention fascism given your opposition to capitalism - there is a big difference between an economic and political system.
Isn't Capitalism based on supply and demand??? Big differents between the political sysyem and economics????? US needs more supply of oil, US invades Iraq, a pretty connected situation there.

A competitive market system that assesses it's potential employees is far from fascism.
So do you pay us more or not?
If you don't then why cant we exercise our rights under the political system to make the capitalist system work how it should.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Deserve?? ha! That's what is wrong with your opinion. You don't DESERVE anything. ?????

Really. Got some figures on the import of Iraqi oil into the US on a percentage basis of total imports? How big were the US Oil reserves in 2003? What does war do to the price of oil - a little fact all the "It's a war for oil" forget. The best thing the US could have done for their imports would have been to become best mates with Iraq.

DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT THE US IS UNHAPPY ABOUT THE CURRENT PRICE OF OIL???????? they own alot more oil now than before 2003 don't they????

'm happy for you to exercise your right. Your right to quit and get another job. Isn't there a pilot shortage?

If any of the NJS pilots wanted to move up to QF or DJ I reckon they have just put a black mark on their resume.

Well if the NJ get what they want or what the think they DESERVE then they wont have to apply for QF or VB will they???

[Charliethewonderdog]

That's for shareholders to judge. and if only they new what was going on. Hang on I have an Idea, lets advertise it.

[Charliethewonderdog]

So do you think they deposed Saddam to secure more oil or to drive up the price?
ummmm YES. I actaully do.


I can tell you that the owners of NJS would be very aware of what's going on. ...and I'll tell you that you are dead right and they would be b]very concerned.

All I'm saying is that you need to accept that being a pilot is a profession that is always labelled as being overpaid.
All I am saying is this perception should be adrressed in sam way, be it advertising or a media campaign, I know all my friends now now how **** we get paid.


Mainly because if you asked anyone on the street if they would like to be a pilot a good number would say yes.
Not if you explained to them what they had to sacrifice to get that piloting job. Infact if I had my time again it would be a tough decision to do it.

Ask someone if a toilet cleaner should get more money and most will say Yes.
and they do, 100k a year 2 weeks on 1 one week off...... thats if NJ dont leave them on the mine site.


Ask someone if a pilot should get paid more and most would say no. ask that same person after you have told them what a RFDS pilot earns and what an Ambo earns, then ask them to explain the discrepancy.

Will education help? No unless you can convince people that being a pilot isn't fun.
What normal person would do something for FUN if it meant continually be screwed over, ah yes....... this I agree with you.

Pilots= week as piss.

[Charliethewonderdog]

he only pilots I think are as weak as piss are those that take Industrial Action.
fair enough I respect your position.
But how would you negotiate??? or would you just leave and find another job??


...and I believe the US secured more oil and drove the price up, yes to both.

[Charliethewonderdog]

As a net importer they have no benefit in driving up the price of oil. It hurts their industry. not if they are off selling the oil around the world

[remoak]

Pass-A-Frozo

Glad you showed up, this thread was getting boring! About time we heard the voice of reason. Not sure how you have the patience to argue with some of your antagonists - bit like arguing with a small child in some cases.

I'll just sit back and watch the fun. It's a bit like watching re-runs on TV - the repeating drama of Aussie pilots self-destructing their careers. Good luck to all! ;)

[Tidbinbilla]

Righto people. This thread is supposed to be about industrial action - let's get back on track or I will delete the thread!

[QFinsider]

sorry PAF your public funded education didn't teach you the language, nor reality..Nonetheless it's you're not your

I am finding the ruling of the commission very interesting. We no longer need to walk into the "workchoices" killing zone, plenty of ways to irritate them.

Tsun Tzu would be proud :E

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Here's an interesting rumour from last night: apparently the owners of Skippers are bragging about wanting to buy the non red tail part of NJS, what are the chances ?:}.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Thankyou Tidbinbilla for pointing out to one or two individuals that seem to constantly rant about how "right" they are. There are some who see fit to be critical of others actions while being NOWHERE near those that are taking those actions. They throw down threats and imply stupidity from ivory towers. Just coz you yell don't make you right.:ugh:

Good luck to the NJS mob, try not to be used as pawns in election madness. Keep your conditions reasonable and most thinking australians will understand and support your actions. Make sure you include even the PAF like people and don't marginalise or polarise. Don't burn the bridge. I have first hand experience in dealing with the people you are dealing with now from an industrial relations perspective. Frustrating to say the least. Be patient, speak softly.....

[Moniker]

Shed DogSkippers wanting to buy the non red tail part of NJS, what are the chances ?.
- of all the people with scope to do it - I'd think SQ would have to be in the box seat down there - whether he actually would though may be another story!

Pass-A-Frozo

Tell them what I want. Negotiate myself. / main key is flexibility - the least flexible party loses and there I think, is the crux of the matter, not just with these few pilots presently in the lime light - but the entire flying staff for the company.

No-one I know could negotiate on an individual basis when the new AWA's and horizons rolled out (bar one that has made it clear via this forum that he had managed to do what no-one else could). So, applying your flexibility principle - the company was the least flexible and now they 'lose' ..

(my bolding and underlining)

[aircraft]

What remoak said.

P-A-F said:
The staff have just proven they increase risk to that return haven't they!

Good point.

[ITCZ]

Let's not forget the fact that other operators will note which pilots have a propensity to take such action when they are looking at hiring - pilot shortage or not. You won't find that in any book either. You don't think QF, VB etc aren't watching carefully and taking names?

Wondered when that hoary old chestnut would come up - "Don't make waves, you will never work in this town/industry again!!"

Sad to tell you PAF, it is total rubbish. In fact, I've recently been speaking to folk in QF, VB, and JQ who make those decisions, and they are saying "good on you." Look in any of the flight departments of Aussie civil jet operations and you will find former NJS people, and/or former colleagues of NJS people in previous companies, that know all too well the antics of this particular operation.

When it comes to the crunch, pilots are hired by other pilots, not 'management.'

[flyingfox]

Thanks Remoak, Aircraft, PAF for your continued positive input to the staff of NJS who are being treated like fools. We all love being lied to and manipulated by NJS Management in their pursuit of maximizing profit. WOG said it all very nicely. If you have had personal experience of NJS Management in action you will realize that they are extremely hard to deal with. They are also at the low end of the integrity scale, so ordinary people are at an instant disadvantage when expecting honesty. If NJS stated their case truthfully and with some degree of transparency they would never have alienated the majority of their Pilots in the first place. This didn't just happen over night. We have experienced their CRM teachings, their 'Team Bonding' courses and their Mission Statements to ad nauseum. When it gets to genuine talks, we find none of the values they espouse are followed by themselves. Lies, spin and manipulation at every level. (The prosecution in the Federal Majistrates Court is an example of how an outside body views NJS Managements' behaviour even in regards to the law. The adjournment of this case won't change the outcome!) Even good senior managers from NJS have eventually jumped ship and taken their skills and knowledge elsewhere after being unable to cope with the NJS culture. This Company should and does get a good return on its' capital and risk. The point is that the staff are there for some rewards too. Just being employed does not satisfy that expectation if the payback gets smaller for every year of service. (And don't give us that 'if you don't like it, then leave' bulldust. NJS has cornered a considerable slice of the Australian market while many of us have been there and working hard for that goal. We aren't looking for a personal goldmine; just the chance to hold on to what we have had. NJS staff have always worked for competitive renumerations which keep us in the hunt for new business.) Pilots and Engineers from this company were all enthusiastic NJS people once until the belt tightening and bulldust load became unbearable. To receive constant lies and spin as well has just become to much. Lets stop the race to the bottom now. A resources boom and strong economy should benefit everyone, not just business and investors. Pilots are not particularly well paid in this part of the industry yet have to meet every standard applicable to others at the wealthy end of the spectrum. NJS has good margins and are able to pay handsomely when needed. (Surveillance Australia can provide some insight here.) We all want NJS to make heaps! They just need to remember whos' skills are letting them achieve that outcome. Other Pilots in other companies take note. This profession does not have to be owned by just 'impoverished enthusiasts.' Hard work, high standards and commitment should at least be rewarded with a 'just' salary and fair treatment. If you employer behaves in a less than professional manner than that which pilots demand, then stand up to them. Some managers only 'talk' when their own threats and dismissive treatment are returned!

[Ross Oakley]

Flyiong Fox, Thankyou!! I do not know where you are from but you hit the nail On the head and could not have summed up the whole lot better!!

Yes NJS has had one hell of a dedicated workforce and they managed to attempt to stuff it up in one foul swoop. Hopefully, if they can see reason, once again they will have a willing and dedicated workforce that will continue to provide the excellent product to our customers and management that we all have for the last decade and a bit!!!!

[cunninglinguist]

Originally Posted by P-A-F
Let's not forget the fact that other operators will note which pilots have a propensity to take such action when they are looking at hiring - pilot shortage or not. You won't find that in any book either. You don't think QF, VB etc aren't watching carefully and taking names?

So I guess nobody from the '89 dispute was re-employed then :confused: You would be lucky to find more than a handful of 89ers that did'nt walk straight into jobs worldwide, inc Oz ( not inc AN and TN )
You could'nt be more wrong in this case PAF, old cock. :hmm:

[Lord Flashhart]

Cunning,

You are sort of proving his point. 89ers were unemployable in Aus though weren't they?

[Wizofoz]

89ers were unemployable in Aus though weren't they?

No. They got jobs with QF,NJS,RFDS and GA operations nation wide. They now work for VB, Ozjet and Jetstar. Also, any who wanted to get their jobs back with AN and AA up until the "Cutoff" date did so, as well as some afterwards.

[greybeard]

At the risk of thread drift,

12 or perhaps 13 '89ers were employed by AN QF after the cut off date and that status quo remained for almost the life of AN, there has been some drift back to QF and its subsideries since apart from NJ where many '89ers were always welcome from the beginng.

Good luck to the NJ troops, many will know me directly from previous lives I hope it all goes well

:ok:

[Track Coastal]

I'm a pilot too. I just have my own opinion (if that isn't obivous!) on ethical decision making
You're an Air Force pilot I believe. You've never had your pay or conditions eroded, nor had to sign divisive and secretly hierarchical AWAs. You have never had to take it in the blurter since Work Choices came in, actually you've probably never negotiated a salary individually or collectively - full stop.

There is a chap floating around PpruNe by the moniker of Dutch Roll, who is also an ex Herc driver now with QF I believe, who posts fair and centrist views that are at odds with your purely theoretical; zero private sector real world industrial experience; and, right wing ideology - so it can't be an RAAF brainwashing thing.

If you can't say something positive, don't say anything. Support these people, its within the law and for the benefit of the aviation industry as a whole.

[travelator]

Lets not forget that PIA has not happened yet. NJS will get 3 days official notice. Whatever caused the disruption in Murin had nothing to do with PIA.

P-A-F said:

I'm happy for you to exercise your right. Your right to quit and get another job. Isn't there a pilot shortage?

If NJS pilots were KFC workers then yeah, it would be better to go and work for Maccas if the pay was better. We are pilots. Our earnings are dependant on seniority. Captains will find themselves as FO's again and FO's will go to the bottom of the list at a new company. They cannot afford to do this.

If any of the NJS pilots wanted to move up to QF or DJ I reckon they have just put a black mark on their resume.

Why would they want to? What is wrong with not wanting to go somewhere else? NJS operate high capacity RPT jet services, just as VB and QF do. The job is the same.

[Ralph the Bong]

Yep, and that's why seniority is a dead duck in the current environment. Seniority is a restrictive practice that serves to ERODE our conditions. A progressive response would be to abandon this archaic promotional mechanism and promote on qualifications and experience.

[Capn Bloggs]

Bong,

abandon this archaic promotional mechanism and promote on qualifications and experience.

and leave all pilots, especially those who speak their mind (quite often for the betterment of the organisation) wide open to abuse, duress and intimidation in the form of holding back of commands and other unpleasant, unjustified consequences just because you don't suck up to the boss, buy his wife a drink at the company Christmas party or bend over and take it up the choof.

Seniority may not be to our complete advantage at the moment but then with the pilot shortage that is about to crash onto CEO's desks, pay won't be a problem either. Let's not throw away in a whim something that has served the pilot fraternity well for many years.

[Square Bear]

Ralph

so kill seniority,

what are you going to do about the F/O's... your post suggest that the Captains can change jobs at will, and, well WTF, the guy in the RHS, he is just there and can stay in the RHS..

So how does that let an airline plan for the future when Captains, are to old, suddenly don't have a medical, retire, etc?.

And how does an F/O plan for his future when his seniority means "jack" because some Captain has the thought pattern that loyalty means nothing and chases Airlines for cash, lifestyle or whatever.

DEC is ok when it is needed, ie start up etc, but your comments rank of thought patterns some 30 years ago. (GOD springs to mind).

In closing.... I hope you have posted a wind up, if it was it was a good one, you got me.:), but my arguement still stands.

Regards

[Going Boeing]

As Bloggs said, it protects pilots from
abuse, duress and intimidation in the form of holding back of commands and other unpleasant, unjustified consequences just because you don't suck up to the boss, buy his wife a drink at the company Christmas party or bend over and take it up the choof.

It also protects the airlines from large scale migration of pilots seeking greener pastures. Training costs for pilots are very high but the time needed to train a replacement is also a very significant factor. Airline managers understand this and the majority are happy to keep seniority in place and thus have a stable group of pilot employees.

[Icarus2001]

Training costs for pilots are very high yes but given that now Virgin, Jetstar, Tiger, NJS and some regionals expect the PILOT to pay for their own training then that reason has lost its validity surely?
Line training has only a small cost to an airline in that they pay a training Captain more than a Line Captain.

[remoak]

Track Coastal

You're an Air Force pilot I believe. You've never had your pay or conditions eroded, nor had to sign divisive and secretly hierarchical AWAs. You have never had to take it in the blurter since Work Choices came in, actually you've probably never negotiated a salary individually or collectively - full stop.

But on the other hand, all Air Force pilots face being ordered into a situation where there life could be terminated abruptly and violently. For that, they have my respect, if for no other reason than their first concern in life isn't pay and conditions. They often live in conditions that most airline pilots would gag at.

More to the point, you don't have to be a civilian pilot to comment intelligently on civil flying matters. Most of the issues being raised here have nothing to do with flying anyway, and any half-intelligent pilot could argue the pros and cons.

Far too many are suggesting "all out, bruvvers" without really thinking it through.

Concerning the '89ers, the majority either ended up flying elsewhere (lots and lots ended up in Europe), or they did other things. Only a few, relatively speaking, got back into Aussie airlines. Many of the ones flying in Europe were broken men - once they realised what they had sacrificed for what turned out to be a completely wasted action.

Nobody thinks NJS pilots should have to endure erosion of their T & C's, the only bone of contention is how they should solve their problems. I suspect that the ones in favour of any form of strike action are the ones with the shortest memories.

Not that any of this will have any effect on what eventually happens...

[Ralph the Bong]

Nope, I'm dead serious.

If seniority was dropped as the sole promotional criteria there would be benefits to both the aviation industry and the profession.

The industry would benefit in that as expansion in a company occurred, they could get qualified, experienced people with ease. This would be particularly pertinent if the company was moving to a high performance type or into a different sphere of operations. People with proven experience would be used to ensure that the new operation was set up and a proper operational culture instilled from day one. Being able to import such people would also reduce cost to the company and support viability.

The profession would benefit as it would mean that our qualifications have greater portability. The ability to go to another company and retain a similar or better position means that your existing employer has to fight harder and offer better terms and conditions to retain staff. In the current environment, this should be pretty obvious and its applicability to the NJS situation, plain.

The statement that seniority 'protects' people who might speak out is rubbish; apparenty true in theory, wrong in pratice. I have witnessed during my 24 year career as a pilot FOMs who move goal posts and change promotional rules at a whim so as their "mates" could get a promotion over someone more qualified and dataly "senior". I have also seen pilots who didn't "Toe The Line" neatly side-stepped for promotion by similar means. I also know of a company in WA who employed some very experienced people into junior positions who were systematically bastardised when the they spoke out on safety or operational issues. Seniority didn't protect them and several left in disgust.

The truth of the matter, Square bear, is that companies will always try to promote from within. This is what will give FOs a break for a seat change. But not only that, there is nothing to stop an experienced FO being employed as a DEC at another company. World wide this practice occurs on virually every continent. It's nothing new. I suggest that you open your eyes and consider the possibilities..

(PS: I directly know people who, as experienced FOs, were given a DEC at the following companies: Ozjet, Easy-jet, Ryanair, Hong Kong Express, Viva Macau, Brittania, Orient-Thai and Blue Panorama. There are undoubtably many more. The companies in Oz that either should or will have need to employ DECs in the future are Skywest, Skippers, Network, SAW, REX, Eastern/QF Airlink and Air North).

[Track Coastal]

They often live in conditions that most airline pilots would gag at.

Which hotels are you talking about? When I often had a beer with a visiting Herc crew, I saw QF crews using the same hotel. This is going back a decade so times may have changed but every Herc crew I knew that visited an Oz capital city didn't stay in the mess on base, they stayed in a Hotel in town. Like I said maybe times have changed. I'll not mention the tax free dollars and allowances on certain deployments that compensate for the 'risk' or hard lying. Remember QF flew into Dadsbag as well. On the other hand Caribou crews spend quite some time in tents in the field, comes with Army support, I don't think P-A-F drives a DHC4/CC08.

I won't denigrate military pilots in any way. I have tremendous respect for most I've met and the job they do. Some do it for free top quality training and to get experience up for QF and CX etc. Some for the altruistic reason of serving their country, "defending Autralia's interests" etc. Some for both-whatever floats their boat. But, they are not seriously qualified to comment from an experience perspective on Industrial Relations against an adversarial employer and strike action as a last resort.

Back to the topic: Industrial relations and NJS Pilots

[Long John Silver]

Precisely what improvements are NJS pilots looking for? Pay increases in the order of what? Are the issues largely pay related or are they a mixture of pay, rosters, leave, general conditions, etc?

What is the target time frame for improving these conditions?

What advice would current NJS pilots have for future employees?

[flyingfox]

Long John. Of course there are a variety of views amongst the Pilots at NJS as to what we should be seeking, but the bottom line is simply to maintain previously agreed conditions and to at least receive the CPI in maintaining salary levels. We are not seeking a pay rise as such. NJS management has been introducing a new plan (which they developed in secrecy) which basically aims to reduce the cost of aircrew by charging them for training, discounting the CPI and cancelling previously agreed conditions. The start of this process was a dubious agreement which was struck (under a certain amount of duress) for the introduction of the Boeing 717 to NJS. Since then, our unbelievably gleeful management has set about making further changes by stealth, using different and less rewarding AWA's for each new employee hired. This has been accompanied by a breathtaking display of dishonesty and deviousness which has made any negotiations between pilots and management impossible. (A classic case of giving an inch and being taken a mile.) Best advice for prospective new employees is to either seek employment with a more honorable employer or await the outcome of the present dispute to see if NJS is worth joining.

[Long John Silver]

Thanks flying fox. Appreciate your time to make a considered reply.

[Low Cost Carrier]

I appologise in advance for going slightly off topic, however I a chasing after Rick Burton's (TWU) email address. Can somebody please pm me if they have it.

Cheers
LCC

[illusion]

[email protected]

0417 914 108

[A Yak From Yemen]

According to some of my NJS sources quite a few pilots leaving the fold in the next few months to other companies here and overseas, potential experience drain coming up. Surely B scale can't last too long.

[MinimaNoContact]

B scale will be around until aircraft get parked, that seems to be the management mentality...
8 pilots leaving over the next 8 weeks should prove interesting

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

where was the twu when i was down in oz ga........mate of mine tells me njs management has capitulated in most areas.....cpi payments have been made, no paying for endorsments, future cpi payments honoured,b scale cancelled except for qantas link locked in contract, pilots getting myer vouchers of between $100 - $200............aipa and afap better watch there backs....twu has kicked a lot of goals in this match.................

[Starting4]

Truth i think ya wrong there with ya b scale quote .It has not been canceled at all.Its been revised with abit of cpi which makes a b scaler about $300 better off each year. $300/yr WOW . I think my interst payments on the morgatge have gone up more than that !

[SOPS]

wait a minute......am I understanding this correctly...NJS has a B scale???? A B scale on one of the lowest contracts around??? How much difference is there between the A and B scale?? And pilots accepted this B scale??? We are our own worst enemies:ugh:

[AerocatS2A]

I believe the B scale is 80% of the A scale, though it has annual payrises that result in it being equal to the A scale after five years. At least that was the story when the roadshow was travelling last year.

[carpe_jugulum]

B scale about 12-15k less than A

Some recent NJ AWAs failed no disadvantage test!

There may be a higher deity after all........:E

[Toolman101]

Heard today the Jungle Jet in Perth is being dusted down for Friday.

What's the gen???? Is there going to be some action or is it more of the phoney war :confused:

[Captain Klink]

It's going home!!:ok:

[blaster666]

or maybe the boys will accept a Union Collective Agreement with cpi for 5 years as a victory !!!!????? **cough**cough**

[RENURPP]

someone has let the idiot out again!!:=
(happy now?)

[blaster666]

indeed our 'leader' !? - let us rise over the trenches and charge - blindly, faithfully towards the pot of gold you promise........but wait.....it is empty.....you haven't decided what it is you want to put in it yet !!!

PS - "someone" is one word, "anyone" would be a more appropriate description in regard to a question about whether this 'dispute' is based on substance or principle......if substance......I will repeat the numerous questions in this thread......"what is the substance"

[RENURPP]

I didn't specify who the idiot was, you are making an assumption.:rolleyes:

I will repeat the numerous questions in this thread......"what is the substance"

As I have said, log onto the NJS site and all your questions will be answered. The problem is you would have to identify yourself, and I recognise why you wish not to do that.

[Track Coastal]

Kind of like "fixed home loans" .. The banks win the vast majority of the time.

I'm paying 6.75% whilst Howard's battlers are going to pay 8.5%. Whatever you say :rolleyes:

[Track Coastal]

So, the $343 in my pocket every month as opposed to in CBA's coffers makes me worse off (plus because of their "wealth package" and type of client I am most the hidden fees were waived http://www.commbank.com.au/personal/home-loans/wealth-packages/default.aspx )?

That $4116 a year extra that I have compared to Howard's (vote for me I'll keep interest rates low) battlers that makes me 'worse off' has me contemplating my imminent financial doom. Might pop out and buy a kilo of Moreton Bay bugs and a case of Cascade Premium and contemplate your sage advice. :rolleyes:

Lucky me for your advice and the wizards at news.com.au and the Government Gazette (The Australian).

Bring on the 24th. :E

*whoop, whoop - "thread drift" - whoop, whoop - "thread drift"*

[freddyKrueger]

Hockey may get to air powers
Andrew Burrell and Laura Tingle.

Workplace Relations Minister Joe Hockey could be asked to use controversial powers under Work Choices laws in a bid to halt a threatened QantasLink pilots strike that would cripple the nations's resources sector from as early as next week.

In a move that could develop into a major issue late in the federal election campaign, about 70 pilots employed by National Jet Systems will decide by the middle of next week whether to begin industrial action against the charter operator.
The dispute centres on a long running bid by pilots to get a collective agreement after claims their Australian Workplace Agreements lowered their pay and conditions, and poses risks for both sides of politics.

The coalition would be able to claim the strike was a portent of things to come under a Labor government. Labor would be able to point to the claims of lower pay and conditions under the coalition's AWAs.

But the spector of a crippled resources sector could play in the hands of the coalition, which has been pushing industrial relations hard in Western Australia - where five seats are up for grabs - and has been heavily endorsing the role of the mining industry in the economy.

National Jet operates QantasLink services in WA, Queensland and the Northern Territory. It transports 70 per cent of WA's fly-in, fly-out mine workers in the Pilbara for companies including Rio Tinto, BHP Biliton, Woodside, Newcrest and Minara Resources.

Any strike would be legally sanctioned but if the pilots endorse the industrial action and give a required three days notice, mining companies could apply to terminate or suspend the bargaining period.

Another option mooted is to ask Mr Hockey to intervene under Work Choices provisions that allow him to require arbitration in disputes that have a negative impact on the national economy.

No such ministerial power exist under the ALP's planned industrial relations changes.

Australian Mines & Metals Association spokeman Chris Platt said the ministerial powers had never been exercised but would be justified given the impact a strike would have on the on resources industry.

Transport Workers Union organiser Rick Burton admitted yesterday Mr Hockey could "simply jump on the phone" and halt any planned industrial action.

He said a strike next week was possible even though his members had won the first round of the dispute after National Jet this week agreed to scrap AWAs in favour of a collective agreement.

He said the pilots were drawing up a non-union collective agreement to put to the company as early as today but "industrial action is still on the cards".

National Jet spokesman Phillip Smart said the company hoped to finalise the collective agreement and was confident there would be no industrial action.
Source Australian Financial Review, Page 3 Friday 9 November 2007

[Spotlight]

High stakes poker indeed. The pilots are holding the ace in the hole though!

[RENURPP]

At first glance I read the journo for the Fin Review as Laura Bingle :E. Not her sort of magazine I wouldn't think???:p

[yowie]

Would have thought that highlighting that workchoices(sic) has a mechanism that allows employee's to fight against an employer's wrongful implentation/application of the legislation would be very 'helpful' to the encumbent

[blaster666]

Where are we up to boys ?

[MinimaNoContact]

With another 2 on top of the 8 that have already pulled the pin this month, things will be getting busy for the guys and gals sticking around over Christmas!

[P-air]

what a predicament....

Government powers to step in and stop a strike to protect the resource industry... bring a stop to an already legally sanctioned action!

In an enviroment where the media are reporting pilot shortages, you would think that there would be a perogative for trying to appease the pilots. Got to give it to them for sticking it out with the company and trying to work things out.

With all the jobs going elsewhere at the moment for pilots, with better terms and conditions, one would think it would simply be easier to take the old adage and vote with the feet idea. This would leave NJS in more of a predicament, with no pilots to fly thier planes, and then put the resource sector into more risk, with no-one to drive them to and from work!!!

One could argue therefore that to protect the resource sector, NJS should simply do what it can to resolve the situation.

And media wonders why there is an apparent pilot shortage...who wants to put up with that kind of crap........

[displaced gangster]

BLASTER

What is the CIA's strategy to retain the "B" scalers when recruiting commences for Jet* bases in YPPH/YPDN?

Word on the street is the training captains(the ones that stay) are preparing for a busy period.

:8

[blaster666]

Displaced G....how the f$#k would I know what the CIA strategy is....their heads are so far up their ar$e they couldn't find a strategy if it was painted on their di(ks. My understanding is they had an opportunity to resolve this months ago but thought it might offend their bonuses or their string pullers in the motherland so have continued to fight on using illogical principles and lazy management. That is why I chose to give em a way out for me & I admire the efforts of you guys is trying to achieve what you want.

.......if I get a Christmas card with the CIA summer season strategy pasted inside I will let you know !!!:ok:

[blaster666]

Footnote to above : I still strongly encourage the rest of you still flying with me in NJS to also call up the 'most' ? reasonable CIA manager you can find, ask to sit down with them, prepare what YOU want out of a renewed AWA and say that it THE ONLY terms under which you would sign.....you might be surprised

[ROO-C26B]

My past experience indicated that a collective action will gives the greatest result in any dispute. NJS pilots should stick together and let the company have it for what it is coming to them. It is all about greed how much bonuses the management will be receiving if they can pull this through and suppress wage cost. One thing the management don't realise is that without the pilots their jobs wouldn't exsit. Look at a great example, REX, what sort of trouble are they having now. So people don't give in stick with what you want and go head to head with the selfish greedy management whom don't give an ass about you at all.

All the best NJS boys and gals! Be the force with you!

[cunninglinguist]

Gangster, I think the CIA will be relying on no Captains wanting to go back to right seat for 2-3 years ( no DECs for guys with no 320 time and wrong coloured shirts ) and the FOs not wanting to pay 35K......I'm guessing

[MinimaNoContact]

3 Capt's gone in a month... the grass must be greener, the J* PH/DN bases will only make things more interesting... not to mention one of the Capt's off to Tiger, and probably taking a bunch of his mates with him!

[3 Holer]

one of the Capt's off to Tiger, and probably taking a bunch of his mates with him! .......................

He's not, but a couple more have their hats in the ring anyway !

[cunninglinguist]

not to mention one of the Capt's off to Tiger, and probably taking a bunch of his mates with him!

Poor buggers, from 1 :mad: outfit to another :mad: outfit, with a demotion thrown in for good measure

[Launch_code_Harry]

Not to mention the ongoing ability to utilise the perennial "base viability" threat to keep the troops bending over.

[MinimaNoContact]

with a demotion thrown in for good measure

Direct entry command Im told

[cunninglinguist]

Well I'm not going to say bulls hit and look like a pratt ( again ) further down the track but will say would be EXTREMELY surprised knowing that a) same guys running Tiger as Jetstar, and 717,146 not considered to be real A/C ( above 55ton ) NOT my opinion BTW, and b) from memory the only guys that had 'Bus experience in NJS were on the A300 15 years ago.
Still, they hired someone sacked from Jet*, so they are obviously not too fussy :}

[blaster666]

After all the huffing & puffing I understand you boys are now accepting a 5 YEAR NON UNION agreement for the princely sum of CPI. Now there's an outcome that will make "the man" shake in his boots the next time the NJS 'collective' warriors threaten to finally achieve just rewards !!!

Please tell me it ain't true !?

[RENURPP]

Blaster,


Hows the AWA going?:oh:

[Toolman101]

you boys are now accepting a 5 YEAR NON UNION agreement for the princely sum of CPI.

Surely the TWU are better than that at negotiations:confused:.

I can't believe they would come away with so little after the support expressed by the pilot group:{

[kavakid]

Minima No Contact I here there is a pilot shortage so if you ain't happy LEAVE all the better for those who like there job and lifestyle. For those who belive the pilot's can try and gain a big pay rise think again. NJS is a contract company they don't have the ability to increase fares to give out more money, they have a fixed contract per hour. Don't get me wrong NJS isn't the best company to work for, but sometimes take a deep breath and enjoy life. $130000 as a Captain $75000 as FO, B scale well those choose to come on board. If you can't live on that please feel free to move on. To the 3 pilot's who stuck there necks out when no one wanted to I thank you, to all the would be world changers, there is nothing forcing you to stay.

[power_up]

Does anyone know what NJS management are doing about this or their panic mode? Are the other business units ie SurvAust being effected by this? Been out of NJS for a while, is the master race boy still portraying the face of reason?

[blaster666]

Renurpp - I got me an AWA until 2010 with guaranteed percentage increases at least 1% above CPI plus (clever) additional leave provisions (can't tell you more detail as I signed confidentiality provisions).

I'll take my chances after that.

Mate, what have YOU got the boys ? :\

[A31J]

$75k as f/o on b scale?

if only

at present, for those on AWAs, a 146 f/o takes home about $57k a year by the time you've contributed to your cost of training..over 2 years!

if you then take off another $15k in the 1st year on the training wage, $75k a year is heaven, or nirvana or somewhere..just not HERE!

:ugh::{:\:uhoh:

[The Mr Fixit]

I know this is a really bad idea on this forum but I can't stop myself..........

The NJS pilots seemed so resolute in their actions that I thought they would really achieve something notable

In my opinion they did not

The question I ask is

What changed you guys from chestbeating silverbacks to sullen men ?

[Toolman101]

I got me an AWA until 2010 with guaranteed percentage increases at least 1% above CPI plus (clever) additional leave provisions (can't tell you more detail as I signed confidentiality provisions).



I don't want to sound like a doubting Thomas Blaster, but until I see that contract for myself I think you are either sh*t stirring or you must have 'special' qualities that the rest of us don't have.


Which is it????? :hmm:

[blaster666]

Toolman - all I did, many months agos when everyone else had their fists in the air & singing "together united, we'll never be defeated" is ask ...."you want us to sign AWA's, you say you will pay 2% for nothing & more if we can find 'offsets', well what if I changed my scheduled hours, call outs, overtime provisions....etc. etc." would that be worth X% per annum" and I am pleased to say ...............it was ;)

[Toolman101]

Thanks for your answer Blaster.

One other question ,it's strange that your AWA is only till 2010 and not 2012 like everybody else:confused:

[displaced gangster]

Blaster,
The name Vidkin Quisling comes to mind after reading your posts.
Good luck with your aspirations re "the CIA".
You may be over qualified in the personal integrity and loyalty areas :cool:

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Ahhh Blaster, good on you mate you got to have your cake and eat it.
Quote:
" all I did, many months agos when everyone else had their fists in the air & singing "together united, we'll never be defeated" is ask ...."you want us to sign AWA's,"

So when all the boys and girls were putting their jobs and futures on the line with the threat of organised industrial action you grovelled on up to management and said " I'll be the first to break and split them if you give me an extra five pieces of silver" Well good on you, that's character and you'd be one hell of a workmate standing by your mates. You call it your own bargaining power, you poor deluded fool. Do you think you'd have got the same deal if the rest of your workmates hadn't "together, we'll never be defeated"? I think not it was their commitment to getting a better deal that got yours and now you gloat, you idiot.

Blaster you and your kind who selfishly feather their own nests using the hard work and risk of others should be dealt with in kind and left to stand alone with your "powerful" individual bargaining.

Sorry for getting personal people I don't normally do this, but this deluded clown has got me going with his superior style. Well done NJS mob for taking a stand and if you didn't get everything at least you showed you had some courage and got blaster his wing ding deal.

[ITCZ]

well what if I changed my scheduled hours, call outs, overtime provisions....etc. etc." would that be worth X% per annum?
Have to admit that is quite a cunning plan, blaster, especially if one knows how the NJS OCC (crewing) operates. With the plethora of AWAs there is no list of "pilots on these terms, and pilots on those terms". The people who do the rostering and crewing arrangements simply have a guide that lists the most restrictive of the workplace arrangements.
Therefore you will be rostered as per the collective agreement, and get paid as per your individual agreement. No one in OCC is going to refer to an individual entitlement list for CAPT/FO BLASTER when they are scrambling for a reserve crew. You will be able to refuse duties that you don't want etc because they wont have a crib sheet with your AWA rules on it.
The NJS pilots seemed so resolute in their actions that I thought they would really achieve something notable
In my opinion they did not
Fixit, I had to delete my earlier, very specific post in response to your comment because it contained items that were before the courts, and other items that could arguably been described as company in confidence and therefore a breach of an employees duty to her employer. I'll try again with less specific or controversial info.

In straight $$ terms the Employee Collective Agreement on the table is not particularly remarkable, no. The salaries and allowances are pretty much those that would have been paid to NJS pilots had the pilots made no concessions to get the 717 work back in 2004, and then the full CPI salary adjustments been applied. In other words, 2003 conditions adjusted to 2007 as though nothing had happened with the 717 introduction.

There are several improvements over that agreement, but you could be forgiven in thinking that nothing remarkable had been achieved. In the last few months we have seen evidence of a pilot shortage, and now we all have dreams of winning the lottery -- jet operators, with handfuls of cash, looking to woo us to work for them, us sitting back, saying eeny meeny miny mo.... Certainly if you too have been captured by this latest wet dream, then the agreement on our table might not look so appealing.

However that would miss the point. This dispute was never about getting more money. Look at every press release from the TWU, do the google search, and you will see the statement "its not about more money."

This dispute was triggered not by the pilot shortage and wanting more money. This dispute was triggered by NJS using the 'flexible' legislative arrangements around AWA and individual contracts to avoid paying their pilots the money they had already agreed. BAe146 Pilots on individual contracts, with no need to sign updated contracts designed for the B717 introduction with degraded pay and conditions, had their annual salary increases frozen.

Meanwhile over in recruitment land, NJS proposed to introduce B scale wages, pay for endorsements and large bonds for new pilots. This was against a basic condition that all NJS pilots would be employed on substantially similar terms.

Each month as pilots won upgrades or promotions, the AWAs being presented had less money and more impositions on the pilots. Individual contracts were used to 'fish for the bottom', were divisive, put individuals under enormous stress, and drove conditions ever downward.

That was bad for you if you worked at or wanted to work at NJS. It was also bad for the industry, because it was leading the race to the bottom. Where one operator goes, others will follow.

This dispute is mostly about getting fairness, consistency, and predictability back into the employment arrangements. It was about getting out of AWA and all the problems they caused, and into Certified Agreements like pilots at Qantas, VB, Jetstar, SkyWest, RFDS, Rex, etc etc etc. Independent research showed that workplaces that used AWA tended to have lower conditions and minimal wages growth, whereas workplaces that used Certified Agreements had higher productivity, more frequent and higher wage outcomes, better productivity, etc. It was about getting out of employment arrangements that work best for small to medium businesses in entrepreneurial situations and onto the correct employment arrangements for a large firm where large numbers of operational staff do similar, interchangeable tasks.

What was the use of having generous callout allowances if the company could simply choose to not pay them, or at worst delay them for months if the individual persisted with the claim? What was the use in having an entitlement to 8 days off at home base in any 28 days if the company could simply decide that it 'made no commercial sense' and refused to roster them? And the dispute resolution process was so weak that 'tricky' disputes could be left hanging for months, even years, because there was no time limit in which to have them resolved?

They were the reason that NJS pilots were fed up. It was about having decent rules, the same rules for everybody, and making them clear, easily understood, and enforceable. Since the pilot shortage came along, a few people revised their opinion and thought, hey now I want the money as well, lets add that to the list.

If blaster, etc are happy with their outcome, more money or whatever, then good for them. He will be happy with his extra x% but he may not acknowledge that he will also 'ride on the back' of the improved rostering and promotions protocols, gained by the company being forced to abandon AWA based protocols for more robust, section 327 and section 328 agreements. He also neglects to acknowledge that he made his gains in an environment where the company was on the back foot, and it was the push from the TWU and the pilot group that put the company on the back foot.

But getting back to Fixit's observation.... simply having an ECA on the table is remarkable. A Union CA would have been best. AWA to UCA would be like bush C402 to B787. Nice. AWA to ECA is more like C402 to B737. Not the big prize, but pretty good all the same. It puts NJS pilots on a far better legal footing, and sets the scene for many more improvements.

And in industry-wide terms, here is a group of Aussie pilots that successfully knocked down every stereotype their managers (and some pilots at other outfits) had about them. Here is a group of pilots that...

Got organised.
Researched the legislation.
Supported and encouraged individual pilots in pursuing claims of underpayment through the proper agencies.
Briefed in and mobilised government agencies such as the OWS to pursue breaches of the Act and call the company to account for breaches of employment regulations.
Kicked out a non-performing union and partnered up with an active and results oriented union.
Bypassed the middle managers who were part of the problem and directly engaged with the CEO and top level managers.
Ignored threats, implied and stated, about their current jobs and their future prospects.
Lobbied local, state and federal politicians with an interest in their constituency, an interest in workchoices, an interest in the health of the resources sector, or an interest in purchasing aerospace capability from the company.
Applied for protected industrial action.
Won the right to use protected industrial action.
Had everybody ready to engage in protected industrial action.
Didn't actually have to USE protected industrial action (in fact the hardest part is trying to STOP many pilots from taking protected industrial action now that the major gains are on the table, ready to grab.)

And it appears that we will get the most important thing we wanted -- proper rules and regulations at work.

Notable? You bet!

[The Mr Fixit]

ITCZ

Thanks for the informed reply I appreciate it, honestly

It's funny that backbone of a man resurfaces when you deprive him of his basic rights, seems some bald headed twerp found that out last weekend

I will say this
"If the pilots at NJS are happy with the deal, well done"

I just thought for once in my life I was going see pilots stick it to the man, ho hum I wait for next time

[Ref + 10]

ITCZ, thankyou for taking the time to explain what the outcomes to this action was. I hadn't come across the result in such a concise reply yet.

What was the net result for the pilots who were employed on the renowned "B" scale? Are the AWA's they signed on the lesser amount still being adhered to or have their conditions been improved? Does it also mean then that if NJS recruit now that new recruits would be on the same starting conditions as people who had joined 6 months ago under the "B" scale arrangement? I ask because many people were hesitant to apply to NJS while this action was looming and the result of being employed while these issues were still up in the air.

[Capt Claret]

Whilst pilots continue to accept the B-Scale as offered, it will continue to be offered.

[Ref + 10]

So it is still being offered then? Surely they are having trouble getting people to apply knowing that this is still going on!!??

[AerocatS2A]

Will new pilots be employed on the ECA? Is the B scale written into the ECA?

[aircraftt]

You lot don't deserve to be paid. If I had my way, you would all be paying your boss's for the priveldge of flying their aircraft. I was liasing with the previous government about this. I find it unfathomable that anyone would even consider voting Labor.

[indamiddle]

god no! .....he's back
the gentlemen wearing white coats and carrying butterfly nets are letting the team down.
however, it is fun to read the above ramblings. if nothing else at least i feel a sense of superiority. ok, the village idiot would also feel superior

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Somewhere out there there is a village missing it's idiot and I know where he is. :ugh:

Get used to a new way of doing things. The people have spoken and they don't like your way of thinkin boy.

Just by changing one little letter, how long oh lord how long.

[flyingfox]

You find everything unfathomable Aircraftt. Have you had your medication tonight??!

[Ruck Bogers]

Will new pilots be employed on the ECA? Is the B scale written into the ECA?
New employees will still be employed on an Interim AWA that includes a B scale up until the time the ECA is voted up by NJS pilots (read - now not any time soon with a Labor Govn't and uncertain industrial legislative changes to come)

The new ECA will NOT include a B scale if anyone can help it. :)

To sign a 5 year Interim AWA in the current climate would stand you alongside Aircraft and the other Village idiots. :}

[bushy]

Unscrupulous newbies destroyed the viability of GA, and now it's happening to scheduled air services. Will it always be so.

[...still single]

Unscrupulous newbies destroyed the viability of GA, and now it's happening to scheduled air services. Will it always be so.

Bulldust. If a B scale remains in place at NJS, it is because the current staff allow it to remain. It's up to the guy and girls already there - who have all the bargaining power - to refuse upgrades, overtime, etc etc while lesser conditions are being offered to newcomers.

Don't be like Mr Blaster who has his conditions protected and let the newbies take whatever is offered.

Bushy, if you ARE laying something on the line, then you have every right to say what you said and I'll offer apologies. But if the newbies see no support from the guys already on board, then I wish them the best of luck.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

.....still single,

If Bushy is wrong, how then do you categorise a newbie paying a company $40k for a Dash 8 Endorsement and a job, in doing so reducing the numbers of positions available guys/girls coming out of GA.

This is exactly what Bushy is refering too, in the same way these idiots would fly for free, fly the Chieftain for the C182 rates, daddy buy them an aeroplane, daddy pay the CP a back hander to employ little johnny/jenny (as applicable).

[...still single]

Shed Dog

I don't like the idea of paying for endorsements or flying for free etc.
My (potential) first job fell through because the cross hired aircraft involved came complete with a pilot (the owners son). What can you do?

GA is a dogs breakfast, there is some good, lots of bad and I think it is beyond fixing.

Back to NJS, that can be fixed. But it's no use these guys fighting for their own conditions and leaving newcomers to sort out their own terms.

If you expect newbies to reject whats being offered, then the guys/girls already on board should be prepared to take action to back them.

[ADL Spin Doctor]

Come and join us.

Please hurry so we can beat Kevin 07's push to abolish AWAs.

We have a great opportunity to ensure that we have the most competitively paid and most productive Pilot workforce around.

Since inflation is on the rise we may even trim a little fat off the B-scale salaries to help with the greater good.

Now that Minima has left us we need others to join Blaster on our AWAs.

Please apply ASAP.

[bushy]

Low cost flying. It doesn't exist. But the public want it, and the airline business is now the ruthless business that we saw in GA. And airlines in Australia are less able to find a "protected workshop" to live in like they used to and they know other competitors are coming. The Low cost model requires every economic advantage to be fiercely exploited. Others will be doing it.
That's why they are recruiting newbies, who will work cheap and stay with them, rather than employing the more experienced who want more, and can be mobile. And newbies now pay for their own training.
That's why they are crying to the government about the pilot shortage, and trying to get govt to finance training.
That's why they have the minimum number of bases and facilities. (Tiger wiped Alice Springs because of ground crew problems)
That's why they cancel the less profitable routes rather than employ experienced pilots.
There always have been plenty of newbies, and our flying schools have done well out of them until recently. There always will be plenty of wannabies, and the airlines will do well out of them.
The airline business is changing. GA is usually an indicator of what is coming for the airlines.
That's my opinion.

[Icarus2001]

That's why they are recruiting newbies, who will work cheap and stay with them, I disagree. The newbies will walk away (or run) when they have some jet time in their logbook. Off to the better paying airlines.
Remember a few years ago when banks were closing branches everywhere, now the reverse is happening because they realised they needed branches to connect with their customers.
Well guess what, when your low cost employees walk away for better paying jobs elsewhere you may have to look at how you treat those employees.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Rigid wage systems have always been the enemy of real wage increases across the board for all

Bollocks, the abolishment of AWA's is viewed as a win of many fronts, for example:

1) The awards will return as the line in the sand, i.e you will not be payed below this.

Note: the AFAP awards applies in some states and not others, some companies are Appendix A respondents, some are not.

This will change, so new CPL working in their first flying job will be paid no less a minimum award wage for a CPL holding Pilot, and as per required ratings.

2) Supply and demand, you will still have the ability to negotiate as you and your company are happy to agree on, the abolishment of AWA's does not end the present Pilot shortage, therefore the trend of above award wages will continue whilst ever there is a shortage of suitably experienced staff.

Companies competing for experienced Pilots, who would have thought ?.

3) You will be able to choose your Superannuation provider.

4) Unfair dismissal protection, yes it does happen.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Good to see you back Digger Frozo, I thought you'd be crying in the corner with last weeks result of all those stupid people ousting your beacon of economic logic. Maintain that rage.

As to your fine call of rigid wage systems holding down wages as economic fact, I'd like you to do some research on Republic of Irelands regulated wage system and note the per capita income. Then you can check out Denamrks highly unionised workforce and check out their average wage of 38,0000 and compare that with our own? Then maybe check out Sweden, Norway and a host of other DEVELOPED countries. Stop using the U.S. as your economic model or you'll end up sub primed. They are not the be all and end all of economics and it's time people started understanding that.

Where are your economic facts? It's easy to make broad statements and pop out the odd little gem to support your argument, but others can do that too. I'll show you how AWA's and unregulated wage systems will lower wages and make peoples lives harder. Keep running with the unemployment call too, nice to see the underemployed getting a look in. Give 2 people jobs for $5 and don't hire one for $10. Third world ideas.

Ciao

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

PAF,

That is a rather one eyed view of the facts.

Higher wages = the company can afford less employee's, no arguement from me on that one.

Lower wages = can not afford a mortgage, fuel for the car, school camps for the kiddies.

So we need to find some middle ground right ?.

The present Labor governemt ( lefties ) are more left of centre than completely left, so the possibility of return to the "extremeist unionism" is both highly unlikely and highly desirable.

The economic arguements have two groups with needs:

* how can a company conduct its business without the correct number of staff employed at a sustainable wage (the lower the better), in broad terms a Righty/Liberal statement, and,

* how can a family survive without an appropriate income (the higher the better) that meets their needs ( house prices, car etc etc ), in broad terms a lefty/Labor statement.

There needs to be a middle ground, the Work Choices was not offering that, whilst considering your response, have you been employed on an AWA ?.

Unions never have and never will "provide" for real wage increases across the board

How could a Union possibly do this ?, i would like to see appropriate minimums set, reflective of the skill set and market value, then cast it in stone as the minimum.

Unions generally ensure the income is reflective of the job, as the job evolves with new technologies and work practices and ensure the wages does not depreciate due to the "non-application" of CPI increases, you might then ask, well if companies were honest about the above "who needs Unions/ the ombudsmen", do a search on their web sites and see how many organisation are not being honest, a great many.

Big business is its own worst enemy, if employees had no need for a union, why would they need a union, if you catch my drift.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

With our ecomomy in its present state a twelve year old could balance the books.

Kevin Rudd has offered F/A, he is still the Prime Minister Elect right, we will not see his input to the economy for sometime.

There will always be unemployed, there will always be the unemployable and there will always those employed that should not be.

The Military harbours many of the the second and third types ( the professionally institutionlised ), tell me i'm wrong PAF ?, lucky you guys aren't truely performance based, hows this different to the real world ?.

If you don't like that link pull out ANY economics

You just love those broad unfounded sweeping statements.

It is clear you are of a very different political persuasion and mindset to myself, have a good night and good luck:).

[Gnadenburg]

I know of several guys who have come back in from the airlines (such as Ansett) and would be overpaid if their salary was $2

They weren't much good at Ansett either.

No surprises they returned to where they spawned. In a free market, post 9-11 aviation world. :)

[bushy]

The economic theories you espouse were widely held by a group of powerful people in Australia.
The Australian people just gave them a huge vote of no confidence.

[five dogs]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:AQAk1EKJRYYj2M:http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t185/tootthesmokingsheep/Toot1.jpg

I thought Blaster was my friend from Darwin, after looking at the list who have signed a new AWA on my little mates desk, I know its not.

[blaster666]

Hey Five Dogs,

Even your little mate would surely have better filing than having 3 month old AWA's sitting on his desk.

........however, a snake like you could probably slide under the door to the pay office to look in all the personnel files I guess.

while your at it.......why not have a peek at your own file & let us know how much you get paid for doing :mad: all !!! ;)

[Ruck Bogers]

Ah... its great to see a bunch off Pissed off Pilots backed into a corner with no room left to maneuver. Even the most sedate dog will eventually bite your leg off when poked with a sharp stick enough times :eek:

4 QANTASLINK B717's Parked against the fence on Sunday 2nd Dec due to NJS Pilots having no "Incentive" to go to work. I bet QANTAS were really happy to ask NJS CEO P. Nottage what the fuc:mad: was going on ????
I'm sure the fines QANTAS imposed on NJS would have made up a few B Scale Pilots pay balances for the rest of the year too!!!! :=

B Scale Pilots most probably were far to busy polishing up their CV's and Logbooks at home looking for far greener pastures free of NJS management Bull****, especially now most have had their wonderful AWA's rejected due to failing the Fairness Test. :D

Hah... Who needs Protected Industrial Action when most NJS Pilots are continually suffering from symptoms of the "Blue Flu" and have to take time off to ensure they operate their aircraft in a safe and non-efficient manner.

Top job fellas. Top Job. Now thats standing together!!:ok::ok:

[grandesire15]

You must be really proud......:confused:

[illusion]

No Grande,
Not proud- just aware that the first company to scratch an RPT jet aircraft in Australia will be almost garanteed of bankruptsy.

[Capt Basil Brush]

4 QANTASLINK B717's Parked against the fence on Sunday 2nd Dec due to NJS Pilots having no "Incentive" to go to work.

Isn't that normal for Sunday's in Perth?

Sundays in Perth always resembles an aircraft parking lot.

If they were serious, they would park them during the week early in the mornings.

[nig&nog]

Was just checking the afap website page for jobs and saw SA DHC8 pilots getting 100k & 60K base wages respectively. If the company can up those wages that much you boys and girls should be able to reach equal base wages with J* and VB.

Nog not nig

[Diver Dan]

When NJS lose 70% of their pilots pa they may find big pay rises coming their way!

[Icarus2001]

A great advert for NJS in the Australian newspaper today. I must apply to these guys.

Mr Nottage you must be a very proud man. Well done, Conrad, Geoff & Rodney will welcome you with open arms to their clan.

[watching from above]

Its funny looking in on NJS from the outside, I have a few good mates in there and have meet a few guys i cant stand from there.

why is it that when ever the majority are working on something a number of individuals always ruin it for the rest of you.

Have fun boys and girls. Just remember that the more you guys bend to try and get that little bit extra in your own pocket instead of standing up for the majority you are actually stuffing yourselves over. I love watching in from the outside.

Keep up the entertaining work guys. it certainly gives our crews plenty of things to chat about on flights.

the other thing that always surprises us is we hear how close you get to actually doing good and the next thing you all buckle and get nothing of any worth. grow a back bone boys and girls and stand up for yourselves, I certainly wouldnt fly for the pathetic wages most of you guys are on, espeacially not the b scale fools.

Keep up the entertaining work

[blaster666]

Just wanted to reignite this thread to update all who may have previously had an interest about the lack of balls that evolved from the initial chest beating about "taking it to the man". The current status is a NON UNION Collective agreement with little (none) more than WOULD have been achieved 6 months ago by individuals prepared to sit down & talk about their own careers & conditions.

It is so frustrating that many of my pilot colleagues threaten so much about their collective strength & then fall like a pack of cards when the going gets tough.

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !

[Shed Dog Tosser]

It was taken to the man, what was sought was achieved, whats the problem ?.

[blaster666]

The continuation of suppressed wages barely maintained (particularly in the West) by a national CPI average for 5 years without the leverage of a union being a party to an agreement & the continuation of 'B' scale colleagues..............mmmmmmmm............you tell me the problem compared to the original rhetoric of 'the fight' ? :rolleyes:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Blaster,

Quite interesting you are trying to cast stones at those that took action and appear quite happy with the outcome, when it would appear that you signed the first piece of paper dropped infront of you, appears misinformed and a tad hypocritical.

[blaster666]

That is a fair call Rock Thrower but my point was that having beat their chests & said time we will get what we want & it will be better than what we would have gotten any other way - there WAS no action & there IS no outcome other than what would have been achieved by sitting on their hands & keeping the old agreements.

I acknowledge the right but am sick of the bravado among my colleagues without the substance to REALLY fight for what they really believe is their right !!

[Chimbu chuckles]

What chest beating bravado?

The NJS boys and girls' aim was the removal of the B scale...they achieved that and more by the sound of it.

If you ask me this is a win for reason.

[Capn Bloggs]

the removal of the B scale...they achieved that
Oh no they haven't.

[sleeve of wizard]

Chuck, I suggest that you check your sources. I think that you will find that the NJSPG reps sold their members down the river.:{

[Capn Bloggs]

Ho hum, another alias pops up. Sleeve, you're wrong too. :=

[Chimbu chuckles]

Capn Bloggs check your PM.

Sounds to me like the NJSPG are doing a reasonable job thus far:ok:

[sleeve of wizard]

Chuck you neglected to include the loss of 3 sick days per year, I would see this as a rather big loss wouldn't you.
I have it on good authority that the PG reps were doing a ring around before, during and after the balot trying to convince voters. They managed to get some people to change their vote, if this was a democratic system 1 vote is all that is allowed.
The TWU were not invited by the PG reps to the negotiations, I ask you why wouldn't you want them there, they do this for a living!

Capt Bloggs i maybe a virgin when it comes to posts on this site but trust me I have been around for a while.

[AerocatS2A]

Chimbu, I was under the impression that that was the plan for the B scale guys from the start (the increases to ultimately match the A scale after 5 years.) Did they change that to a straight out B scale?

[Capn Bloggs]

Capt Bloggs i maybe a virgin when it comes to posts on this site but trust me I have been around for a while.
You may have been around for a while, but not around here. You're about 6 months behind the profile. :cool:

[Capt Claret]

Sleeve,

You're talking so much **** you MUST be able to taste it!

[Icarus2001]

So January is over...do you guys have a result yet on an ECA?

[Capn Bloggs]

The ECA got up. Now it is up to the NJS management "team" to produce the contracts that they said we would not get if the boys had voted no.

[Capt Wally]

best of luck NJS drivers, I've never been a fan of the TWU, lets call it many years with them & they where, well, useless in another industry!.........still the troops have voted with their fingers, now what's the middle finger for??:}

CW:)

[blaster666]

Hello to my NJS Brothers.

I just got my 3.5% increase from the AWA that I locked in for 5 years. Can you tell me what the CPI increase that you fought so hard for was this year !?:)

[Mr. Hat]

how are you going to spend it?

other professions are so jeallous.

[blaster666]

Mr Hat - you miss the point - my colleagues fought hard & vigorously for 'CPI' as the best & most beneficial way in which the riches could be returned to pilots (huh !?)....anyways.......happen to see this old thread again the other day & wondered how the passage of time had treated those views....

[Capt Claret]

4.2% if I recall correctly, significantly better than the 2% flat on offer at the time.

[AerocatS2A]

It was about 4.2% last year Capt Claret and I've heard it's 2.5% this year.

6401.0 - Consumer Price Index, Australia, Mar 2009 (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/mf/6401.0/)

[RENURPP]

I wouldn't bother with the sniveling little sh&# CC. :eek:

[blaster666]

Would your reaction Renurpp be anything to do with the fact that your tunnel visioned, economically naive, emotional negotiation strategy has now cost your captain colleagues over $2500 in cold hard cash in base salary, overtime, allowances & value of leave provisions this year over what they would have got if they had stayed with a GUARANTEED model of salary increase rather than one at the mercy of economic downturns !!??

Me thinks the benefit of hindsight only come to those without foresight !:ugh:

[AerocatS2A]

Oooooh $2500! That's a whole $50/week! You'll be able to eat meat on Fridays Blaster!

Seriously, why are you doing such an ugly thing as gloating over a pitiful amount like $2500, don't you have something better to do? If that is such a big deal to you then you're not getting paid enough full stop.

[Mr. Hat]

No worries blaster. I wish you and your collegues the very best. I think you're worth more.

When the economy turns the corner the exodus from companies that aren't providing realistic increases will recommence.

[travelator]

Lets look at facts.

2% flat rate if accepted woul be a base increase of $5,267 over 2 years for a captain.

The CPI rate accepted (4.2% + 2.5%) is a base increase of $8,872 over the same 2 years.

So the NJS pilots have an extra $3,605 over the 2 years based on an emotional negotiation strategy

[Village Idiot1]

Based on my name sakes comments, I just got my 3.5% increase from the AWA that I locked in for 5 years.
he really is the village idiot, cause the rest of us got 4.2% last year and 2.5% this year. Do the math and see who's infront. :D

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Hello to my NJS Brothers.

I just got my 3.5% increase from the AWA that I locked in for 5 years. Can you tell me what the CPI increase that you fought so hard for was this year !? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif
None of you blokes are the sharpest tools in the shed, when Sunstate have signed off their EBA on $125k for a narrow body jet in the last EBA :ugh::}:}

Expect that to be used against your company when the contract comes up for negotiation in the not too distant future.

See how long your AWA lasts then, matey!

[AerocatS2A]

...the rest of us got 4.2% last year and 2.5% this year. Do the math and see who's infront.
Sorry but 3.5% per year for two years gives you more than 4.2% and 2.5%, not much more, but it's still more.

I don't know what you guys are getting paid but assuming you started at $120,000, you'd be on $128,166 now and the gloater would be on $128,547. That's a difference of just under $400 or about $7 per week. If you're getting paid less than $120,000 to start with, the difference will be less.

[Kelly Slater]

Aerocat, you need to go back to school.

[AerocatS2A]

Really? I'll show you my numbers and you can tell me where I'm wrong then.

For 4.2% and 2.5% raises:

120,000 * 1.042 = 125,040
125,042 * 1.025 = 128,166

For 3.5% and 3.5% raises:

120,000 * 1.035 = 124,200
124,200 * 1.035 = 128,547

Edit: Yeah I see what you're getting at. Total income for the two years is higher for the first group. Problem is that any percentage increase next time will be based on a higher base than what the other guys are on, and they're not going to see 3.5% CPI for a while.

[Keg]

The other question worth asking is whether 3.5% a year over five years was offer to the wider pilot group. From memory I don't think it was.

[STS-3]

Hey Mate,

I think you forgot to say that you no longer work at Cobham (NJS), in fact, you left for 'greener' pastures in early 2008.

3.5% per annum, that's great. I think over the life of our agreement the CPI should average out to be 2.7% per annum.

Life is about achieving the correct balance.

I don't value my employment in strict dollar terms, we have a great roster, fly great equipment over good routes. Best of all, after the short term pain of disputes and litigation, the ADL management faces have changed for the better and we are treated with the appropriate level of respect.

As for dollars, I am paid a very nice salary and make even more, as I am sure you do, by using the variety of opportunities which are afforded to the diligent and disciplined.

Regards