Aircraft Financing- New Seminoles

[nomorecatering]

Some general questions as part of some research I am doing onbehalf of a client of mine.

What is the average hourly crosshire rate (dry) that operators asked for a Seminole.

What is the usual monthly hours requirement for a long term crosshire. Its seems that most contracts I have seen say they expect 30 hrs a month.

Some folks have said that most finance organisations will only finance an aircaft on a 5 year term, does this indicate that the principal must be paid off within the 5 years, or can refinacing happen each 5 years.

My client is examining the feasablilty of purchasing between 4 and 10 new Seminoles, give that with an airframe life of 14,600 hrs and the 32 on the Oz register are currently flying their bums off. Most are approaching 10,000 hrs.

How many hrs per year in your opinion would a Seminole have to fly to pay its way.

Are the news airframes anymore reliable than the 10,000 hr ones currently available.

Is Piper open for negotiation on price for large unit ordes or is the list price the price whether it be for 1 or 30 airframes.

Is the looming MPL likely to effect the no of twin training hrs in Oz in the next 5 to 7 years.

Regards all.

[bushy]

Get the people who are talking about the pilot shortage to guarantee finance for your proposed flying school. Let's see if this pilot shortage is real.

[gaunty]

nomorecatering with the greatest of respect but if you are "doing research on behalf of a client" you should already know the answers to those questions or at the very least give attribution to any answers you may recieve here.

"Client" infers that you are being paid for your advice. This usually involves the sale or rent of whatever intelectual property, you may possess not that of others.

Hearsay, opinion, old wives tales and urban myth are worth what you pay for them, = zero. If you are "charging" some suspect for your advice then give them properly researched, verifiable and quantifiable advice or fess up its dubious origin.

[squawk6969]

WHAT?????:eek:

PPRUNE is not the fountain of all knowlege?:ooh:

Thats where I am going wrong.......:uhoh:

[glenb]

I feel you could expect a Seminole to do 400 to 450 hours flightswitch at any of the busy schools. $220 flightswitch for the older models and approximately $30 more per hour for a new model. Perhaps even slightly more for the newer model. The operator would normally look after fuel, oil, parking, airservices, and landing fees. The owner would normally be responsible for 100 hourlies at up to $4000 for an older one and hopefully closer to $3000 for a newer one. The owner would also be responsible for insurance up to $7000 p.a. but check with the insurance company on those figures. Unscheduled maintenance would also be the owners responsibility. Another advantage for a newer model. Cheers.

[cudza101]

Nomorecatering,

A lot of this information is available publicly. I know that for at least four operators in Melbourne you could get a reliable indication from their websites.

All this aside, I fly a 2001 seminole which costs over $400 on flight-switch. It sounds pricey but I assure you that it's well-equipped and it gets a decent whack of work. It was under-utilised to begin with but the last 18 months have seen it really pick up.

I've also flown an older model which costs about $230 dry on flight-switch. Whilst it's not quite as luxurious as the one I regularly fly it's very well maintained

In either case - from a customer's point of view - they're very expensive for what you're getting. As they say, the same speed as a C182 at twice the price!

[43Inches]

There are a few 2000+ model seminoles flying in aus today. I would suggest you should be aiming to achieve a minimum of 600 hrs flightswitch a year if you want to make any return on the investment ($510,000 USD per unit). This can be achieved at the right flying training establishment, especially if airline cadets are trained to a schedule.
Be aware that insurance premiums change based on type of operation, qualification of pilots and individual operators past history. This can vary greatly and is charged as a % of hull value, a short talk with the insurance companies can get you a quick answer.
The airframe is pretty free from major issues and has been designed for ease of maintenance, however the electrics, avionics and instruments in the new aircraft could be a lot better and do cause some downtime. There are also 50 hourly inspections(oil change etc) in addition to the 100hour. A good group of experienced engineers will save you money in the long term. It pays to be on top of all maintenance issues as keeping the new aircraft new is the cheapest path to follow in the long run.
The new aircraft are quite heavy, with unfortunately no improvement on performance having unfeathering accumulators and such fitted just increased the basic weight.
All that adds up to alot of homework and do your sums carefully, find out what the aircraft costs to operate and then approach operators to see what they can offer you.
Remember to have good cash reserves as even though alot of items may be covered by warranty the need to replace an engine or other major componant may ground the aircraft for a month and the bank will still want its money.

[gaunty]

Eeeerm you dont work backwards from what you think you should get but forwards from what it costs.:{ It's not rocket science.

Capital servicing/depreciation plus admin and operating costs for a reasonably achievable utilisation (400pa) plus a profit margin 37% on nett aiming for 17+% after previous costs is a good start. If you cant get that keep the money on the bank, unless you are in the mode of subsidising your hirers flying.:uhoh::mad: