Kiwi pilot shortage

[Three Blader]

Quick point

how true is it that there is a pilot shortage in Godzone

Three Blader

[Got the horn]

It's looking like that won't be too far from the truth shortly.....

[Corkey McFuz]

Starting already but the brunt of it is definitely on it's way. Hold on to your hats :}

[YAX]

Whatever....

Have heard this story time and time again, yet with 1200tt and 900twin turbine (multicrew) have had no replies from the link companies, or for that matter, anyone...soundsair etc.....so kindly fill me in on the so called NZ pilot shortage as myself and probably half of the G.A in Bott's would be very interested to hear.

Cheers;)

[Launchpad McQuack]

I'm a bit sceptical myself...it's probably more accurate to say the pool of candidates has shrunk, but I doubt there will ever be a lack of Pilots in NZ.

Nepotism still has a slight grip on the industry as well. Still, it'll be interesting to see what happens...I suspect NZ will fare the next few years better than Aussie.

LP

[Kliperoo]

Hard to say. I left a year ago today to find a job flying in Canada, and from what I hear back home in Rotorua not much has changed. The good news is there is a lot of openings world wide, so that may create some movement.

[kev_laline]

Well there's still plenty being churned out of the schools, both fixed wing & helicopter, with or without a loan from Aunty Helen.

[mattyj]

Its true enough, but you still need to be current..around 1000+ with plenty of multi, and also..and this is a very big also..know someone in the organisation..preferably senior..like your old instructor for instance..who can give you a good recommendation.

[kev_laline]

If the shortage of pilots is for real, perhaps we'll see this come down a bit.

[Raropilot]

Hmmm I dunno ay.... 1600+TT 1200+ multi turbine...not a whisper from any of the link carriers:hmm:

[kiwiblue]

It's a bit short-sighted to say "it won't happen in NZ" I reckon. This current 'pilot shortage' is a global reality -sooner or later the effects are going to have an impact on the NZ market. Many of the current trainees are in NZ solely to qualify -as soon as they have achieved their goal, they'll be off to their homelands. Many of the locals will become expat, taking their skills & training offshore, (as already happens) putting greater pressure on the market within NZ. Eventually this must lead to a true shortage of skills and experience within NZ, as it is doing in virtually every other developed nation in the world right now. Do you truly believe other nations will not head-hunt NZ as they are doing other nations??? Have a look at the the QF link in NZ thread elsewhere here... it's a happening thing!!!

It's my belief that this shortage will eventually be to all our advantage, wherever we may be or wish to be. It will surely lead to vastly improved T&C's across the board as employers struggle to retain qualified and experienced crews.

Pick your time, pick your spot... for surely it will happen. I've been hearing about this pilot shortage for 30 years -looks like it's arrival is at a minimum, imminent.

[FreshKiwiAviator]

I'm in NZ, I don't have a job. Things can't be too bad.

[kiwiblue]

So get out there & make it happen -there's probably never been a better time than right now!!!

[scuttle butt]

From the number of kiwis i hear applying for jobs in Oz with just their bare commercial, it may take a while before the big guys down there come to realise the drop in numbers of available pilots with a few thousand hours.

[devolved]

If you have an instructor rating, theres truck loads of work in NZ. The place im at for example is looking for upto 5 instructors.

Raropilot, i find that pretty hard to believe, got mates getting in with around a 1500 total and couple hundred multi. However I do think if your hours are done overseas, they tend to take that into account?

[JET_A1]

There are plenty of Jobs in NZ for Instructors at the moment.

Again....the place I'm at are looking for Instructors and paying ok money.

Logging 400+ hours per year

If you want more information PM me.

:ok:

[Artificial Horizon]

Can't be that much of a shortage:

4500 total time
1200 Dash 8
1600 A320/21
1200 PIC

Can't get an interview with anyone.... go figure.

[remoak]

Ah yes but you committed the cardinal sin of working overseas - makes you virtually unemployable by the likes of Air Nelson (unless you have 50 hours recent NZ IF of course)... Eagle are probably similarly blinkered.

[Raropilot]

I can see their concern in regards to recent IF in NZ... But it is a bit narrow-minded, wouldnt you all agree?? I was a C-Cat instructor in Auckland before moving.. besides, an aircraft flies the same way anywhere in the world.. . Or are we flying inverted here across the south pacific???:}:eek:

[flyby_kiwi]

Im sure Eagle will be more than welcoming if you wanted to go from an A3 to a 1900 for whatever reason (although you wouldnt be the first)..... infact a few of the fellas in the company had never been to NZ until thier interview.

[ARPs]

Why wait in NZ for this pilot shortage when the rest of the world is crying for pilots, even guys with 300hrs TT!!!

Pick up your balls and head across the ditch atleast!!!

I set sail in Feb 07 and within 2 weeks I had a job flying a C208B IFR single pilot with better T&C's than what eagle pay there F/O's when they start out, then I get to move onto a Kingair C90!!! And I only had 800 hours TT at the time! Im now doing around 85 hours per month and its all in good gear!!!

Sure the NZ pilot rush might come but you will never earn the $$ in GA in NZ compared to overseas!!

ARPs

[YAX]

Very good point,

Noticed on AFAP today advertising for chieftain drivers, 500 tt and 50 on type. I guess most kiwi's want to be based back "home" but at the end of the day Auzzie will always be the better option for twin drivers. I have good mate's in Bott's with 3000tt,yea sure, they might have single turbine but these days what does that matter??? I'm going back to the land of the long white cloud in a couple of months to renew medical etc.... anyone willing to offer me a job cleaning toilets? trust me it's more money than i'm on now:}

[Humber10]

Well Raro, you hit the nail on the head, narrow minded is the Kiwi way.... sad but true, there are heaps of guys O/S that could bring a heap of experience back to NZ. Unfortunately the folk in NZ might be a little scared you might teach them something....50 NZ IFR, WTF?? NZ is not the only place in the world with bad weather... Keep trying, there seems to be alot of people in NZ with half your exeperience getting work, dont let that get to you, I'm sure if you persist you will get in, but you might be better off trying elsewhere where your experience will be appreciated... Dont bother with the smaller operators in NZ, you have too much experience, have you tried CX,QF, EVA etc? I wish you all the best, Good luck

[remoak]

Raropilot

I can see their concern in regards to recent IF in NZ

Well please explain it to me! NZ is one of the quietest aviation environments in the world, and the IFR environment is probably the easiest in the world. I'd love to know what is difficult about NZ IFR that you need 50 hours of it... even if you have 10,000 hours in the far more complex European IFR system.

Doesn't really matter to me, but it sucks for those who have been overseas and want to come back. Nothing more than small-minded discrimination by all the ex-aero club wallies that run Air Nelson.

There probably isn't a real shortage in NZ, but there is in Europe. We are currently looking for 146 pilots and we can't find any. Taking on guys with less than 1500 hours TT now. Bit different to NZ, eh?

[Cloud Cutter]

remoak, that's been done to death, mostly by you. Air Nelson is the only airline with any such requirement, and most of us agree it is dumb and serves no constructive purpose.

There are plenty of 737, and a few A320 jobs going for anyone who wants to come home. Of course you will have to swallow the reality of our below par pay rates, but this is something I expect to improve over the coming years (wishful thinking maybe).

As for the pilot shortage in NZ, it's all relative. I can see how pilots struggling to find their way out of GA would find this claim frustrating. I think we are beginning to see a shortage of experienced airline pilots, and this will continue (I believe this will drive a rationalisation of our pay and conditions if managed properly by pilot groups).

There doesn't seem to have been a marked increase in numbers coming through the flying schools and aero clubs over the past 5 years, and that would suggest it will continue to become easier for new pilots to find jobs. It's certainly better now that it's ever been since I've been in the industry.

Good luck to all those looking for that next big break, there's plenty happening and you'll get there if you persevere :)

[remoak]

There are plenty of 737, and a few A320 jobs going for anyone who wants to come home.

Really? Where?

[SkySurfin]

Remoak

Really? Where?
Pac Blue, Jetconnect and Jetstar..........
There probably isn't a real shortage in NZ, but there is in Europe. We are currently looking for 146 pilots and we can't find any. Taking on guys with less than 1500 hours TT now. Bit different to NZ, eh?
Guys are getting starts with Pac Blue, Jetconnect, Jetstar and Air New Zealand starting around 2000 hours TT, thats a big change from past years.
NZ is one of the quietest aviation environments in the world, and the IFR environment is probably the easiest in the world. I'd love to know what is difficult about NZ IFR that you need 50 hours of it
Who gives a whoop-dee-do who has busy and quiet airspace and about 50 hours IF....... if ONE company has a requirement for 50 hours IF, then sobeit, I cant see why you would give a rats anyway.
Seems to me whenever topics like this arsie you have a good whinge about it and break out with loads of sarcasm, whats your point.
Avaition opportunites for pilots in NZed are the best they have been in ages. Guys in NZd are making the most of this and good on them, they deserve too.

[Cloud Cutter]

Amen to that, well said ;)

[kiwiblue]

Aviation opportunites for pilots in NZ are the best they have been in ages. Guys in NZ are making the most of this and good on them, they deserve to.

Well spoken SkySurfin'... there seems to be a more than a few die-hards around here, happier bemoaning their lot than getting off their arses and doing something about it, whether that be actually applying for a job (what a novel concept!!!) or ensuring that they do or are able to meet the well-publicised minimum requirements for employment. If they ain't prepared to do any of that, then I fail to see the point of incessant bitching and moaning in here. Quite frankly I've seen enough of it.

It ain't going to be handed to you on a plate kiddies. DO YOUR BIT!!!

[remoak]

Guys are getting starts with Pac Blue, Jetconnect, Jetstar and Air New Zealand starting around 2000 hours TT, thats a big change from past years.Very, very few are achieving that - I am sure the number is single digits. Friends of the HR manager etc.

Avaition opportunites for pilots in NZed are the best they have been in ages. Guys in NZd are making the most of this and good on them, they deserve too.Well you are only young and clearly don't get how the industry works. The small-minded approach that I mentioned is only one example of that sort of thinking, and it pervades the industry in NZ. What you don't get is that it actually severely limits opportunities for all NZ pilots (not just returning ones), but then you wouldn't understand that, having never seen how the industry works outside the narrow confines of NZ. People who have been overseas and have had their eyes opened find it hard to understand how the industry even survives in NZ, where it is more about who you know and the amount of sucking-up you are prepared to do than any sensible measure of performance.

But by all means do the lemming thing and look on the bright side. As you don't know any different, it won't bother you and you can happily join the queue for that nice shiny 1900 or whatever (which is the only likely position available to most of you). Hope the prospect makes you happy.

Those of us who have seen how the industry SHOULD work - from the useless CAA on downwards - will just shake our heads and feel sorry for you. If you could see how things COULD be in NZ, you wouldn't be so accepting of the crap forced upon you. It may be the best it has been for ages, but that still isn't good by world standards. Just look at the opportunities available to all the Indians currently filling NZ flying schools.

In the meantime I am still recruiting 146 pilots. No sucking-up required...

[glekichi]

I gotta agree... Every time a topic about NZ recruitment comes up somebody starts complaining about Air Nelson's 50hr requirement.

It gets tiring.

So what if they prefer training local piston pilots and giving them a shot at getting into turboprops without having to go hunting overseas? At least they are not one of the airlines that refuses to do any training and just looks for experienced pilots from elsewhere.

No... the pilot pool here is not so dry that they need to look overseas. Minimums are coming down, thats all.

[Cpt Link Hog]

Had a friend come back from overseas been flying King Air's spoke to ANSN got told the 50hr thing.......so went got a job in GA did 100 odd hours NZ IF called em up and interviewed and now working for them...Job done! it's not rocket science ;)

[remoak]

No, it isn't rocket science. If you think it is reasonable to discriminate against other NZ pilots just because they went overseas for a while, using a completely spurious reason that has no basis at all in terms of defining ability or skill... and if you think it is fair that someone should have to go to all the trouble of finding another job in GA, which they will then leave as soon as they have the requirement, quite possibly screwing the operator they were using to get the hours... then yes, it is fine and dandy.

You can't discriminate against gays, ethnic minorities, or muslims... but it perfectly acceptable to discriminate against pilots who have worked overseas.

That's aviation in NZ. Not a level playing field in sight.

[nike]

Remoak,

what is you gig?

I could def understand your carry on if this Air Nelson thing was applicable to you, but with all your not so veiled refs to the glory you are currently apparently enjoying - it ain't.

So it then begs the question - to what end?

Not merely for the greater good? Surely ye jest, kind sir.

That last post, come on....... I guess I'll be looking for your name on the larbour party list next year for its not but just a soap box thy stands upon, its the whole farkn container load.

It really does just look like a dirty big chicken bone that got stuck, but hey, I'm usually more wrong than right.

[remoak]

but hey, I'm usually more wrong than rightNo... I mustn't... I mustn't... but oh so tempting...! :}

The only reason I bother to mention the Air Nelson idiocy - other than the fact that there was nothing on the telly over here and I was bored - is that it needs to challenged.

As you say it doesn't affect me, I wouldn't even bother applying. I just think it sucks that enterprising Kiwis who head overseas find themselves penalised on their return, for absolutely no reason whatsoever. As I have mentioned before, the Chief Pilot at the time that this rule was introduced, told me to my face that it was designed to prevent "queue jumpers" getting back in after leap-frogging their contemporaries who stayed behind, instructed, and washed the Air Nelson Metros for nothing while brown-nosing every manager in sight.

Maybe you think that aviation should work that way. I don't. I believe recruitment should be based on experience, skill, and attitude, which is the way it works in more enlightened aviation environments.

Sadly, I now have to warn potential recruits from NZ of the downside of coming over here to aviation nirvana... that they may not be able to go back.

Many of the people who post here would do pretty much anything (legal) to procure that first job, or next rung up the ladder. When I was an instructor, there were a few who did some illegal things as well - such is the desperation that some feel. A hiring process that includes favoritism and discrimination will inevitably lead to all sorts of underhand dealings. When I was doing a type rating course for a NZ third-level operator that runs light turboprops a few years ago, I was amazed at how many people on the course had bought their way in, hoping that they would be noticed and offered something. The sucking-up was spectacular, to say the least. The operator was probably making more money out of speculative courses than he was out of flying.

What amazes me the most is that young pilots today don't understand that such practices disadvantage all aspiring pilots.

Anyway, if that is the system that you want, good luck.

BTW I am not enjoying any particular glory, just got lucky after many years in the game and am trying very hard to pass some opportunities on to Kiwi pilots, who generally have to wait a lot longer for such opportunities to come their way (if they ever do at all). It's called giving something back, which is what you do after many years in the airline game. Sadly, it is something the NZ CAA makes very difficult, but that is another thread.

So what is my gig? Trying to give something back to young NZ aviation, and expose b*llsh*t for what it is. No need to thank me.

But only when there's nothing on the telly... :=:=

[404 Titan]

While people may want to bag Remoak, no one has really given a good reason why Air Nelson has the recent 50 hours in country policy? Would someone like to answer that?:E

[SkySurfin]

Remoak
Well you are only young and clearly don't get how the industry works. The small-minded approach that I mentioned is only one example of that sort of thinking, and it pervades the industry in NZ. What you don't get is that it actually severely limits opportunities for all NZ pilots (not just returning ones), but then you wouldn't understand that, having never seen how the industry works outside the narrow confines of NZ. People who have been overseas and have had their eyes opened find it hard to understand how the industry even survives in NZ, where it is more about who you know and the amount of sucking-up you are prepared to do than any sensible measure of performance .

You dont have a clue in the world who I am, so how can you make such comments. Just because you can read my age on the side of my profile you assume I dont know what Im talking about, or that I havnt been anywhere, infact this couldnt be further from the truth! Its like me saying to you "Just because youve missed the boat in New Zealand you are bitter and thats why posts the way you do" But I dont know who you are, maybe your a good guy (judging by your posts though Im not so sure though). You are clearly out of the loop regarding NZds current employment situation so stop posting like you know what your talking about. Flying overseas has no disadvantge on you career, All of my mates that I flew with overseas are flying jets and turboprops back in New Zealand now. I came home to NZd Got a job with a regional, flew on the tasman for a while and now im on a widebody, so maybe dont post about others unless you actually know where and what they have done remoak! I was just putting a positive spin on the current movement. Oh and Remoak I have never kissed bum to get where I am, Ive just worked hard, like many other kiwi pilots, Its about working hard and the rewards will come. Its not about sucking-up!
404..... dont know the "Real" reason for the 50 hours IF thingy. I assume its just some kind of filter they use to get their applicants, it is a bit of a strange one like the AirNZ degree req, but I know for a fact that both of these will be waivered in place of another area of experience. ie jet time

[remoak]

Flying overseas has no disadvantge on you career

Well at least three people who regularly post here know otherwise, as well as many others known to me personally. Just because your mates did OK, doesn't mean that everybody did.

Its about working hard and the rewards will come. Its not about sucking-up!

Yeah, right... :rolleyes: I suspect your colleagues who are still instructing or banging around in Chieftains will see it rather differently, as you cruise by in your "widebody" which you got to by "hard work". Oh per-leese... :rolleyes:

but I know for a fact that both of these will be waivered in place of another area of experience. ie jet time

...and I know for a fact that that is complete crap. Maybe the odd case... but it isn't automatic.

[nike]

Gidday remoak,

more than happy to be wrong, not sure what the first line was about.

Just because your mates did OK, doesn't mean that everybody did.

Oh, come on man. A 6yr could debate better.

It does appear you've dug your heels in and it doesn't mater what points or examples others bring up, they are scoffed at with cries of 'exception to the rule' and your broad strokes continue unabated.


This topic of the mighty overseas experience being ignored in NZ is one I can't figure.
Maybe if a little more specificity was brought into the mix, it might help to enlighten the flock, for at the moment it doesn't add up.

Since the example of Air Nelson is mostly used, I take it we are talking about people applying for a FO positon?......And being turned down for an interview?

Are you saying that say that if one returned to NZ with lets say 10,000 hours, that one should expect to not be given an interview for Air Nelson FO?

Is that an example you refer to or am I way off the mark?

Are we talking about smoking around africa in a lighty, coming back to NZ with say 2000 hours and being turned down?
Is it 5000 hours with a couple thousand lear jet in the states?
4500 in a ERJ somewhere in the home nations?
6000 with 146 time on a JAA licence?

Point is, again just chucking something out there cause I'm still scratching the nog here, prob the african gig is the only example that rings true, due to the thought that the various levels of experience open different doors?

And as we all have some internal ladder of what is a forward step or backward step, there are not many jobs in NZ that one can come home to without taking at least a sideways step, and usually in our minds a backward one.

So are we really talking about wanting to return to NZ and forego the seniority system under the guise of the great NZ travesty?

If not, enlightenment......

[kiwiblue]

Oh come on remoak -grow up. I don't know how many threads I've seen you hijack with your incessant whinging about the "injustices" of aviation in NZ. I for one am sick of hearing it. Reads to me like you applied, got knocked-back (for whatever reason) and the recent 50 NZ IFR was just a convenient hook to hang it on. Get over it.

There is absolutely no reason to **** on NZ, NZ aviation or current NZ aviation participants because you didn't make it.

Get a life.

no one has really given a good reason why Air Nelson has the recent 50 hours in country policy? Would someone like to answer that?

It's their train-set, they can do with it as they see fit with absolutely no need to justify their requirements to you, me or anyone else.

[Cpt Link Hog]

Remoak

The Airnsn 50 If thing is possibly a hang over from years ago when the NZ dollar was a lot weaker and a lot of guys were doing contract work overseas in Africa ect.. had a few with good time struggle abit not as you say with NZ IF but maybe best described as ICAO IF procedures and with a greater pool of pilots ANSN could be a lot more choosy but as Dylan said "times are a changing"

Maybe they may have other reasons like shows people have work rights in NZ, and people who have been away show a real commitment to being back in NZ not just putting their CV in the "pot"
There are probably many reasons not just the 50hr IF

Besides giving jobs to Kiwi pilots not being flooded with expats??

Overseas time; the Last NZ company I worked for more than half the crew had lived and worked in all parts of the world for many years form corporate Jets to Otters on floats and was/is looked on favourably in the recruiting process.

"overseas'' time is looked upon and great experience and not just the flying but personal development ect


NZ aviation is what it is, but having flown overseas I can assure you will not be the reason you can't get a job.. good luck Dude

[remoak]

Kiwiblue

I for one am sick of hearing it.

Well feel free to not read it then - even better, don't comment.

because you didn't make it

Ah, but I did. And a lot further than BN2s. Your personal attack is noted though. Grow up yourself.

Cpt Link Hog

but having flown overseas I can assure you will not be the reason you can't get a job

Well I'm not looking for one, and in any case I never said that overseas experience precludes one from getting a job. I was merely pointing out the discriminatory practices of one airline.

Anyway, you guys clearly think it's OK so I'll leave you to it. Getting boring now...

[troppo]

Bula! NZ aviation obviously hasn't changed. It is a circular argument

[kiwiblue]

...so I'll leave you to it.

That'll be bloody good then.

And a lot further than BN2s.

This may come as some surprise to you, but not everyone considers an ATPL and command of a sky-god vessel the Holy Grail of aviation. There are more than a few of us that actually enjoy hands-on 100% of the time operation, down in amongst the terrain and wx. Don't judge me by your poor standards.
Your personal attack is noted though.

To what end/effect? You really do need to get that chip off your shoulder.

[Cloud Cutter]

remoak

I can assure you skysurfin's comments regarding hiring at pac blue and jetconnect are on the mark. There is one who got in recently with just over 1000 hours, but many in the low to mid 2000's. He's one of them, I'm one of them, and we both know plenty more.

There are also plenty of guys coming back from the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet, and even Emirates for DECs.

The jobs are there for anyone willing to pull themselves away from whining on PPRuNe and go and get them.

[737capt]

If you don't like Kiwi avn, then go 3hrs north and try Air Pacific. They are ALWAYS screamining for pilots.

:confused:

[iceblock]

Hey Remoak,

Very, very few are achieving that - I am sure the number is single digits. Friends of the HR manager etc.


This quote above was in relation to the amount of guys getting into Jetconnect, Pac Blue and Jetstar.

Why don't you pull your head out and take a look around.

Jetconnect are screaming for guys.

Pac Blue are taking Jetconnects pilots and still screaming for guys.

Jetstar reckon they will take hundreds of pilots to crew the A320 and B787. Christchurch happens to be located in New Zealand and will be affected by this movement.

And you have demonstrated your complete lack of any knowledge of the industry in Australiasia to state that there are only single digit requirements!

Mate you need to come on down for a visit some time....get the real story.

[horserun]

Hey Cloud Cutter
What sort of hours did you have when you got in??

How many multi PIC hours you have??

PM me if you can, and I will buy you a beer.

Cheers.

[6080ft]

remoak - the more :mad: you talk the more it makes yourself look like you really don't know whats going on in nz.

If you were trying to give something back to aviation perhaps you would stop moaning and say something positive.

The fact is all the link carriers are hiring, Air nz has had interviews last week and have more in november, and all the GA employers that I know of are hiring. So things are looking pretty good for kiwi pilots I think.

[kiwi chick]

KIWIBLUE

This may come as some surprise to you, but not everyone considers an ATPL and command of a sky-god vessel the Holy Grail of aviation. There are more than a few of us that actually enjoy hands-on 100% of the time operation, down in amongst the terrain and wx. Don't judge me by your poor standards.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Now, now boys. Play nicely.

[remoak]

Oh alright then... still nothing on the box so...

Kiwiblue

There are more than a few of us that actually enjoy hands-on 100% of the time operation, down in amongst the terrain and wx.

Otherwise known as "couldn't get into the airlines"... lol

6080 ft

The fact is all the link carriers are hiring, Air nz has had interviews last week and have more in november, and all the GA employers that I know of are hiring. So things are looking pretty good for kiwi pilots I think.

If that's your definition of "pretty good", you need to get out more.

Cloud Cutter

we both know plenty more.

How many, exactly?

Iceblock

Mate you need to come on down for a visit some time....get the real story

I was there a few weeks ago. I did. It isn't what you are saying, that's for sure.

I think that's everybody...?

[kiwi chick]

No?? I must have said something that deserves a telling off, I'm feeling left out now. :(

[nike]

me too! and I put a lot of effort into my post.....damn near ran out of crayons and everything!:E

[kiwi chick]

OK - lets do each other then!

Nike - you obviously have some sort of problem with attitude, do you know what you're talking about? I'm guessing you are a wannabe who never made it. Grow up. Don't you know anything?

How's that? Your turn! :ok:

[Cloud Cutter]

remoak

I'd say around half of the non jet rated new hires recently have been under 3000 hrs, and this is continuing.

horserun

I'll post it here incase anyone else is interested.
When I got the call I had around 2500 total, 1700 multi, 450 multi PIC. There are guys who've been called up with less than that, and some without any multi-crew command time.

kiwi chick

If you and nike must insist on doing each other in a public forum, can you please post pictures, ta ;)

[kiwiblue]

Otherwise known as "couldn't get into the airlines"... lol

Careful remoak, your true colours are showing :E. But no, it's quite a lot simpler than that...

I just never bothered applying.

I realised a long time ago that the world is full of arseholes (just like you) and the thought of being on the left- or right-hand side of an arsehole (just like you) for 18 interminable hours would steal all the joy that aviation brings.

The bright & shiny jets don't float my boat, I've seen pretty much most of the world -in a lot more detail that you'll ever see in a 2-3 day lay-over and I love my work -and almost all of the people who's paths I cross during the course of my day. In 30 years it has never made me as cynical or jaded as you so plainly are -and there's no chip on my shoulder either! I just checked! There's probably been plenty of reason to get cynical and jaded over the years -GA is not easy, but then someone tells me to go flying... and by the time I get back, the issues/problems of the day seem to have taken on a more manageable proportion :ok:

In many, many more ways than one, I'm so lucky that I didn't lemming-like follow the path into the 'majors'. I chose my own path, still get a helluva lot of satisfaction out of it.

[currawong]

Tee hee. Massive thread drift.

kiwiblue is right though. Maybe without the personal bits:E

I like sitting in the middle. I prefer a stick to a wheel. I don't mind the trees and wires.:rolleyes:

Airlines are ok, if that is what you are into.

To assume anyone who isn't is a reject is incorrect.

[nike]

KC....lol :}

[SkySurfin]

Sorry but im not just going to sit back and watch this idiot get personal to everyone who has had something useful to say on this site.
Remoak Heres what I think (and I dont think Im alone)........
Oh alright then... still nothing on the box so...
Seems to me you either have a bung TV or none at all, because you basically live on pprune returning all the abuse you clearly deserve. Your obviously one of those runty guys (or fat) with no mates who lives through your online profile.
Otherwise known as "couldn't get into the airlines"...
Doesnt appear to me that anyone in New Zealand knows what your talking about, were you referring to yourself? ie. you missed the boat a LONG time ago
If that's your definition of "pretty good", you need to get out more
Whats your definiton of pretty good Remoak, sitting at home whinging on PPrune whilst trying to fill that big chip off your shoulder
How many, exactly?
I assume you are wondering how many people on this site hate you and would like to see you removed? hundreds if not thousands
I was there a few weeks ago
And we are all stoked that you didnt stay......... I could just see the Tui add if Remoak flew in your company- "Awesome Im flying with Remoak tommorrow-Yeah Right"
Im sure everyone else feels the same :}

[kiwi chick]

Kiwi Blue

I just never bothered applying.

ROTFPML :D :D :D

Nice to see there are some sensible people here who see it and/or us for what it is. Now, over to the OTHER thread where we're being bashed... ;)

Will be right back, just off to defend my honour. :E

[iceblock]

Remoak,

There seems to be a lot of personal stuff flying around over the last few posts. I don't think people from either side of the argument deserve to be flinging it or receiving it.

I was there a few weeks ago. I did. It isn't what you are saying, that's for sure.


I stand by what I said. It is what I am saying, thats for sure.

Here are a couple of facts.

Jetconnect are losing pilots quicker than they can recruit. They alone have recruited more than single digits this year.

Jetstar, although an airline based in Aus has a pilot base in Christchurch which is located in NZ. Jetstar pilot requirements have been predicted to be in the hundreds over the next few years. There have been more than single digit recruitment into the Jetstar pilot base this year.

Air NZ has taken more than single digit pilot new hire positions this year.

This is all fact.

[SkySurfin]

all correct iceblock...... Jetconnect has taken on over 25 new hires this year. Im sure you will agree thats more than single digits! ;)....... Pac blue must be in the 20s? Air NZ in the 30-40s? thats a fair bit of movement for an aviation industry the size of NZd.

[flyby_kiwi]

This thread is providing even more entertainment than the Eagle ones :E

[kiwi chick]

Isn't it?! I haven't been very productive in my office job the last few days... ;) :D

[remoak]

Kiwichick

You are very, very naughty...

Nike

I'll sort you out next...

Kiwiblue

I realised a long time ago that the world is full of arseholes (just like you)Is that all ya got? Seriously?

Glad you chose your own path. Much easier to go downhill than up. The good thing about airline flying is that you get to do GA for fun (seeing as there is no money in doing it for a job).

Skysurfin

because you basically live on pprune returning all the abuse you clearly deserve.Well, actually I pretty much live on the flight deck these days, but when I get home from a nice long day blasting around Europe, it's kinda fun to go PPRuNing and wind up some idiots... especially the ones that bite as well as you do... and this from the person that said " You dont have a clue in the world who I am, so how can you make such comments". Gotta love your consistency.

you missed the boat a LONG time agoYeah I guess that is why I am recruiting pilots for jet positions, as opposed to looking for a job... :rolleyes:

Next...

iceblock

There seems to be a lot of personal stuff flying around over the last few postsIndeed, and if you do a quick scan of previous posts, you will see that I didn't start it. But if that's the way folk want it...

BTW my mate in JetConnect tells a somewhat different story... hmmm now who should I believe...

Is this the right room for an argument...? :D:D:D

[haughtney1]

Lovin it :}

Remoak..clear out your inbox mate:ok:

[remoak]

Sorry mate, been getting quite a bit of fan mail... ;) Try again in ten mins

[kiwi chick]

Hahahaha! ROTFL!!

and Remoak?


I know... :E :E :E

[-8AS]

Interesting read - for interest sake only, to show a comparison between the kiwi aviaition market and the European, the company I am flying for are looking for 450 cadets next year (2008) and conducting 250 command courses. All on the B737-800. I was line training a new cadet recently who had 180 hrs!!!!! Mind blowing!

[Roost]

The fact that Qantaslink will be roadshowing in NZ must make a dent, they can take a few over a year, I think it would have been around 50ish last year, and they are running very low in Oz so I guess it would be oppertunity for those in the GA dead end.

Q400 is great to fly, and served me well as a stepping stone. So for those still reading this thread for options it might by a worthwhile avenue. Some decent money to be made there on allowences.

[Cloud Cutter]

remoak

You might see 'winding up all the naive, idiotic kiwi pilots' as a bit of a sport, but I don't think it's fair when a lot of the people reading this thread are working their arses off in GA, and some of us are trying to provide info that could boost their morale, or even lead them to their first big break (yes, yes, I know, if I consider anything in NZ a big break, I need to get out more, so predictable).

We all get the fact that you don't think much of NZ aviation, and we may lag behind when compared Europe, but the simple fact is, I don't want to live in Europe. I don't think it makes me an idiot to have weighted lifestyle against salary and other factors when making my employment dicisions. I also don't think it's fair to pay someone out for choosing not to pursue airline employment - I'm sure you'd agree that GA flying is the best and most fun you ever did, certainly was for me.

[kiwi chick]

Cloud Cutter :D

Will you marry me? :)

(Must point out, will be "for better or worse" as I am a lowly GA commercial pilot... ;) )

[Doctor Smith]

Cloud Cutter

Will you marry me?
Yeah, but first show us your tatts! :}:ok:

[komac2]

Sorry - do you ENJOY being abused...?!


Just abit of clarity needed on that one whats your problem with it.

[kiwi chick]

Aha, fine Doctor...

Rumour has it they're on here already... you just need to know where to look! ;)

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Hi all
I found these figures in the latest publication from NZALPA.

In 2006/2007 approximately 69 pilots left Eagle and Mt Cook. They left for
the following airlines;
Air NZ 15
Nippon Cargo, Japan 1
Pacific Blue 11
Jet Connect 5
Dubai 2
Gulf Air 1
Cathay Pacific 6
CRA/Hong Kong 7
Failed training 5
Maldives 1
Angola 1
Air Fiji 1
Air Nelson 1
Mt Cook 9
Left flying 2
31 left New Zealand for international carriers, demand is up supply is down!

[remoak]

Cloud Cutter

a lot of the people reading this thread are working their arses off in GA, and some of us are trying to provide info that could boost their morale, or even lead them to their first big breakBut according to you lot, jet jobs are ten a penny and the opportunities are everywhere... why would anybody be in need of a morale boost?

I find it quite amusing in a way, though. We are apparently on the same team, you and I. You are trying to lead them to their first big break, while I am actually giving people their first big break. And, for your info, giving people that first big break is the best part of my job.

We all get the fact that you don't think much of NZ aviationReally? Once again you completely misunderstand what I have said. I don't have any beef with NZ aviation, per se. I do have an issue with unfair practices, sycophancy, poor regulation and corrupt practices. NZ aviation isn't defined by those issues, but sadly they do exist - and perhaps worse still, NZ pilots allow them to exist. It's called making your own bed.

I don't think it makes me an idiot to have weighted lifestyle against salary and other factors when making my employment dicisions.Not sure where you get that from, I never said it...

I also don't think it's fair to pay someone out for choosing not to pursue airline employmentWell he or she started that one in post #40. I just defended my corner. Don't start stuff you can't finish etc...

I'm sure you'd agree that GA flying is the best and most fun you ever did, certainly was for me.The stuff I did for fun was great. The stuff I did for money was generally dangerous, pressurised and completely devoid of proper safety mechanisms and procedures. You only have to look at the GA record for the past ten years or so to see how much "fun" it can be...

Bongo Bus Driver

Thank you for making my point for me. Only two carriers hired more than 9 people - all the others are in single digits, as I suggested. And 15 and 11 is hardly a horde for a whole year's worth of hiring.

[remoak]

Careful, I'll get my handbag out...;)

[kiwi chick]

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x105/kiwiflygirl/PMSL-1.gif

[Cloud Cutter]

it's kinda fun to go PPRuNing and wind up some idiots...

While that comment wasn't specifically directed at me, the fact that you routinely try to wind me, and others up, would infer that you consider us all to be idiots, no? (You’re not the only one who can twist people's words).

But according to you lot, jet jobs are ten a penny and the opportunities are everywhere... why would anybody be in need of a morale boost?

I don't think any of my posts have been anything but realistic. I've been careful to point out that things are 'better than they have been', but I recognise it's still a very difficult industry to crack into.

I think it's great that you're involved in recruitment, but some of the negative comments and put downs you come up with here put rather a large dampener on any positive impact you are making. I know a lot of it is meant to be humorous, but it can be hard take a joke when you feel like you're banging your head against the wall trying to get a break.

I think the fact that 69 pilots left Eagle and Mt Cook is slightly more relevant than the single digit hiring figures of the many airlines they went to. After all, this is where most GA pilots will start. Also, these figures for 06/07 are clearly incomplete, the number for Pac Blue would be well over 20, and there is another round of interviews ongoing as we type.

KC

:O Shucks, but yeah, I will need to see the tatts first, and must insist you stop doing nike so openly ;)

[Bongo Bus Driver]

The numbers I quoted above do not include Air NSN, Airwork, Vincents or Air National. And I think those numbers are only the ALPA members that have moved but I am not quite sure on this one.
From the senority list published Feb this year Air Nsn has lost 12 pilots that I know about.
4 to Air NZ
4 to PAC Blue
3 to Jet Con
1 not quite sure were they went.
Though the numbers do not appear to be great it certainly feels like alot of movement when you compare it to past years. Lets hope it continues:ok:

[SkySurfin]

Bongo is correct, those numbers show only the movement from Eagle and Mount Cook. I can confirm Jetconnect has taken on 30 pilots this year to date. FACT, I went through the list, they have also just awarded commands to people who have been in the company for less than 2 years, no preivous jet experience. The new intakes come from Air Nelson, Eagle, Airwork, Vincent. Then there has been a lot coming from overseas- Australia, Dubai, Africa, Indo. Thats just Jetconnect, and as CC said there was at least 20 who have started at Pac Blue. Add to that Air New Zealand have given starts to around 30 with another 8 or so likely before the end of the year. Nearly 100 jet jobs for the year.....not bad.

Remoak please spare me with the smart comments, im just providing the facts for people, hopefully for encouragment maybe..... I cant be biffed with any more of the personal stuff. Alright....... Best of luck to all those guys hoping to crack a jet job in NZd, and good luck to the guys in GA hopefully the hour requirements will move soon at the regionals.

Thats me signing out of this thread...... Im more than happy to answer pms regarding JC recruitment. Cheers

[6080ft]

remoak - I think there is probably quite a few people out there reading your posts and wondering what the hell is up your ass?

I am trying to think of words that describe your attitude!

[iceblock]

remoak - I think there is probably quite a few people out there reading your posts and wondering what the hell is up your ass?


Definately only single digits, nothing over 10.


(Pure jest of course, I couldn't resist......:p)

[remoak]

I am trying to think of words that describe your attitude!Need help with that, do you?

Cloud Cutter

While that comment wasn't specifically directed at me, the fact that you routinely try to wind me, and others up, would infer that you consider us all to be idiots, no? (You’re not the only one who can twist people's words).

The words "some" and "all" are mutually exclusive.

some of the negative comments and put downs you come up with here put rather a large dampener on any positive impact you are making

Yeah well tell that to some of the people I have hired... I doubt they would agree with you. And I am not trying to make a positive impact, I'll leave that to those of you who need your egos stroked. I am simply arguing against discrimination in the workplace that has no basis in any reasonable metric. But you are obviously OK with that, so, well, vive le difference I guess. Many Kiwi pilots will be fine with it because it works in their favour. However, I'll bet you wouldn't be quite as dismissive if they were discriminating against gays or some other minority.

but it can be hard take a joke when you feel like you're banging your head against the wall trying to get a break.


Anyone who has that much trouble managing a little humour has chosen the wrong career. If starting at the bottom of aviation and working your way up causes you that much stress, take up flower arranging or something.,,

[Cloud Cutter]

Who is discriminating against expats or foreigners? Have you listened to anything we've said? They're walking into all sorts of positions and are measured by the same standards we all are. Surely you're not still going on about this silly Air Nelson thing? Air Nelson is not worth arguing about, I'm sure there is the odd airline in the UK that uses discriminative hiring practices. I just don't see your point. Don't judge our whole industry by some silly clause on one little company's application form.

Anyway, I feel like I'm flogging a dead horse, so I'll leave you to your infinite correctness.

Oh, and 'some' and 'all' are most certainly not mutually exclusive when used in that context.

Good day.

[kiwi chick]

Cloud Cutter, my friend

Anyway, I feel like I'm flogging a dead horse,

From reading this thread, many would assume that this is all us Kiwi's are good for ;)

[Cloud Cutter]

Yes, we poor, idiotic kiwis. Ah well, to the glue factory! Plenty of dead horses to go round :}

[horserun]

I have to say Im loving this thread!!

Usually have to go look at the Fragrent Harbour group to see a S:mad:T fight.

Cheers Cloud Cutter for the advise! your a top man!

My 2cents: I Love NZ!!
I will never earn as much here as overseas, but I still live like a god.
the beach......5 min walk
work.............5 min drive
family............1 hour drive
ski field..........3 hour drive
mates............5 min drive (most)
town.............3 min drive
pubs..............5 min drive (20 min walk.....1 hour if Im really pissed)


I have some friends in CH who could probably do better than that though.:ok::ok::ok:

[toolowtoofast]

sounds like The Mount.....

[kiwi chick]

...or Wairoa... :ok: :eek:


as she grabs hat, coat & KY in search of the esteemed glue factory

[Cloud Cutter]

KY!?!

Stop it you filthy tart, those poor horses :eek:

[horserun]

See what I mean...Could be most places in NZ!!!!
Try saying that Europe or Asia.

[remoak]

Air Nelson is not worth arguing about

That's pretty funny actually, because when I mentioned it back on page one, you immediately jumped in and gave me a hard time. So apparently it IS worth arguing about! :D:D:D

I'm sure there is the odd airline in the UK that uses discriminative hiring practices

No. Illegal.

Don't judge our whole industry by some silly clause on one little company's application form.

Haven't you been listening to a thing I have been saying? I already explained, many times, that I don't. Although they do represent an endemic culture.

Anyway, you clearly have difficulty in following an argument in a logical and reasoned fashion, so I'll leave you to your glue factory visit. Do be careful of the rendering vats... and Kiwi Chick. I think she wants to have your babies... ;)

[kiwi chick]

No more babies for Kiwi Chick. Doesn't mean she doesn't need the practice but. Couldn't find the glue factory but my mate owns a dairy farm.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x105/kiwiflygirl/cowbj.jpg

(I didn't realise you knew him too, Cloud?)

Found this too, just need to find the right place to post it - any suggestions? :E

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x105/kiwiflygirl/asshole2.gif

[Cloud Cutter]

Ooh, I think it would look great as remoak's personal title :p

Let me pull myself from the flogging for just a second...

remoak, that's been done to death, mostly by you. Air Nelson is the only airline with any such requirement, and most of us agree it is dumb and serves no constructive purpose.

Is that what you're talking about? In comparison to this:

Surely you're not still going on about this silly Air Nelson thing? Air Nelson is not worth arguing about

Now I concede I'm not blessed with your godlike linguistic skill, but to me the former seems like a concession rather than an argument. What I was arguing about is your use of the same little gripe as basis for every single debate of this type, when the fact is, most pilots will not come back to NZ looking to fly a turboprop, and what Air Nelson does is neither here nor there.
I have far too much time on my hands.

Right, where's my whip....

[Cpt Link Hog]

....Ahh a base in the Mount I live in hope....Wairoa gotta love that place in an easterly; now there's a thought NZ best pie's, Mob retirement captial, cheap property... could be a new EAG base....Base Cpt Remoak?

[remoak]

Nah... present gig way too much fun!

[slamer.]

Since May this year ANZ has taken on 42 new-hires, more to come.

[FL440]

Hey Remoak,
i Can see that your trying to help all these Kiwis here with your genuine honesty here, so why not tell us who you work for and how many people you have given their first big job in the last 12 months......then we really will be able to understand... and compare.
ps Did you say you were hiring for 146? you mean those planes with 4 engines.....oooooooh....i always wanted to fly something purely on an APU..
:}
Ps did you go through more engines than new pilots last year....hehe
:ok:

Sorry didnt want to have a 'personal attack' on you, so thought id give you grief about what you fly instead.
Maybe those 146 fumes in the cabin have gone to your head? :)

[Cloud Cutter]

will do as much as possible for the guy/girl below

Fair enough, rude not to.

Don't take things so personally and maybe one day you will fly something that can stay in the air for 18 hours!


Argh, I can't even handle 6 hours :eek:

Seriously though, good on you for sticking up for your mate/aquantance. Next time you're having a beer with him, remind him about the old saying to do with catching flys, because there's still far too much vinigar being slung around here for most people to listen to what he's actually saying.

Good luck young skywalker ;)

[haughtney1]

I've kept mostly outta this thread...cos its safer me thinks:}
But then you read and digest comments like....
There is absolutely no reason to **** on NZ, NZ aviation or current NZ aviation participants because you didn't make it.
Get a life.

and it makes me think that what remoak has done is get some on here to prove his point for him.
Kiwiblue you should be ashamed of yourself for that comment mate, your comment sums up what is rotten at the core of aviation in NZ and Oz at times:=

All the rest of this thread has happened because of your small minded comment.

[LocoDriver]

The huge movement in the industry in NZ is obvious, those of us in GA are having a major problem training and keeping instructors..........

The biggies are vacuum cleaning up everything in their path, I cant even get a C Cat for basic training......and a lot of organisations are in the same boat.
Trained up a new C cat, and he got sucked up at 310 hrs into a charter op.:(
The next couple have been bonded for a short period.(to the organisation, not to each other!):E

Just hatched a new CPL who stated that cpl's in the future wont do instructor ratings, they wont need to , to get hours, well, i have news for him!
Without instructors, there wont be any new CPL's!:E

GA is about to start bumping up rates and paying staff what they deserve.:E

Its all go!

Cheers!
:ok:

[kiwiblue]

Jet_A1 and haughtney1... whatever. If he is such a paragon then why do so many of his posts in here consist of such arrogance and scorn for any who dare challenge him on any point??? I meet people here largely on how they portray themselves on here. As far as I'm concerned no more or less in this case. As you have pointed out haughtney1, I will not tolerate anyone denigrating my country, family, friends or profession -as your mate did.

Far from being ashamed of myself for challenging him -I would have far more reason for shame had I not. You two appear to know him well. From what I've seen of him in here, I have no wish to know him at all. Despite your efforts to assume the moral high-ground and portray me as the villain, it is your friends own words & actions over months that have bought him his dues, not me.

Thanks Jet_A1 -I still have absolutely no desire to fly anything remotely resembling what might loosely be referred to as an 'airliner', as I thought I had made clear earlier. I have no wish to remain airborne for 18 hours -don't assume it to be otherwise.

I have nothing further to add to this discussion. You will just have to play amongst yourselves or if necessary, with yourself.


:}

[haughtney1]

No KiwiBlue......you began to challenge his point of view...and then decided to get personal, so please don't try to justify your comments on the basis of "country, family, friends or profession" because last time I looked...there were no specific points made with regards to ANY of this..until you decided it was time to sling the mud.

We all have our views relating to a great number of issues that affect all of us to a greater or lessor degree, the difference is, most of us on here can contribute without resorting to name calling.
Moral high ground I think not...just some robust intelligent debate.

BTW...I'm as Kiwi as anyone here..

[remoak]

Briefly...

FL440

so why not tell us who you work for and how many people you have given their first big job in the last 12 months......then we really will be able to understand... and compare.

Well I'm not going to tell you who I am unless you do the same (although it isn't hard to work out). So far this year (since June) we have employed 12 new pilots. Some of those have already moved on to bigger types, plus we are expanding, so we need more.

The rest of your post is too moronic to be worth responding to.

Cloud Cutter

Pot calling the kettle black... you seem more than happy to fling "vinigar" (sic) around.

Kiwi Blue

Do please stop acting like a spoiled infant. When have I denigrated your friends, family or country? Being a little precious, aren't we? And as for "arrogance and scorn", your last post is an object lesson in both. Grow up.

[Cloud Cutter]

Yes, yes, we all know I can't spell. You're entitled to that opinion, but I don't think it's correct. Anyway, that's for others to judge. That's it from me, have a good weekend all, including you remoak.

Over and out.

[kiwi chick]

Whoah.

:eek:

[FL440]

Remoak -

Nope, i dont work for Air Nelson :) if thats who you were refering to?

sorry wasnt trying to be 'moronic' was just trying to add a little humour to a thread thats gotten a little bit bitter and twisted!

With the pilots that you have been employing is that due to company expansion or other pilots moving on?

:ok:

[remoak]

FL440

Actually what I meant was it isn't hard to work out who I am... not your good self - sorry.

With the pilots that you have been employing is that due to company expansion or other pilots moving on?

A bit of both. Hiring over here is fierce - it's a bit like it was in the '80s. Some regional airlines have hired in excess of 250 pilots in the last year, again partly due to expansion, partly due to folk moving on to bigger types. And that is REGIONAL airlines... I guess that is why I find NZ hiring figures somewhat underwhelming.

In our case, in order to attract new pilots, we are substantially increasing pay packages, which I am sure would be music to the ears of NJS pilots. Our crews didn't ask for it - we just did it, because we recognise that we need to safeguard our workforce for the long term. In addition to that, we are also in the process of improving conditions - better hotels, friendlier rosters, more time off, better equipment in the aircraft, and so on. Again. we are doing this without being asked, for the same reasons. We take the view that we want to be known as a good employer, and we want our company to be a good place to work. Achieve that, and pilots will beat a path to your door... it is the part of the Southwest Airlines model that most low-cost operations conveniently forget. Our company ethos is to ensure that lifestyle is considered on an equal footing with profit.

Why, you might ask, would we do such a thing? Well, it comes down to the fact that for most pilots, once they have achieved a reasonable level of employment (say, their first jet), lifestyle issues start to dominate and the desire to fly the bigger jet starts to recede. Most pilots who have been in the airlines for more than five years are mostly concerned with lifestyle, once you get to ten years in the job, 90% of pilots are primarily concerned with lifestyle issues.

Pretty unusual business model, eh? Not much like Oz or NZ... maybe now you can see why such nonsense as the AN thing, or the various other hiring practices in NZ, don't find much resonance with me.

I come back to NZ every 6-8 weeks for a break, and I often test the water with various employers, partly to keep track of hiring trends but also to find out how they work. In general terms, they are years behind the rest of the world in terms of their processes.

Anyway... enough already. A good weekend to all, including cloud cutter!

[FL440]

ahhh, :)

Still dont know who you work for but thats alright!

I guess the only thing that explains the New Zealand industry numbers is purely the size of the 'triangle'. I guess most of the companies in New Zealand have not more than 20 aircraft to their name.

Also i would say that alot of pilots in NZ especially Eagle Nelson are using it as experience to move onto jet rather than settle down as a long term career. I am sure there are a few people in Eagle and Nelson that are looking at a career but i wouldnt say the pay would be good enough long term to stay there.

Agree with your comments regarding as pilots grow older priorities change, yep fresh outa school all you want is that 747 a340 etc etc, then you get older and realise there is more to life than sitting behind the wheel, Hey its a great job but theres a lot to life other than just flying.
So agreed the 'perks' of the job start to become more important....i am guessing here that you have 146's and other jet aircraft in your fleet so im also sure you dont have a junior bunch as such behind the wheel and hence why in your company 'perks' (i use that term loosely) are a major part of your companies work/employment policy, which i admire and certainly im sure some NZ companies would do well to adopt. :ok:

Another thing that i dont think alot of companies in NZ have realised yet (maybe you have) is that if you keep the pilots happy then generally they stick around....pay etc, if their happy then they have the companies interests at heart (good for everyone) also it must be cheaper for a company to keep staff turnover at a low rate due to the cost of training and new staff etc etc

I guess New Zealand is just a smaller market and is behaving in a reactive manner rather than a proactive manner? Also maybe the companies here are well aware that they are 'used' as a stepping stone so have made no attempt over the years to put policies in place to try and keep pilot retension to a maximum?

Ps i know this doesnt justify how some businesses operate but i guess until the hand is forced....you know how it is im sure.

:ok:

[Cloud Cutter]

Why, you might ask, would we do such a thing? Well, it comes down to the fact that for most pilots, once they have achieved a reasonable level of employment (say, their first jet), lifestyle issues start to dominate and the desire to fly the bigger jet starts to recede. Most pilots who have been in the airlines for more than five years are mostly concerned with lifestyle, once you get to ten years in the job, 90% of pilots are primarily concerned with lifestyle issues.


Very interesting remoak, and very true. Like many people in my shoes, I would be happy flying even a small regional turboprop if Ts and Cs were adequate. I must admit it does baffle me how many NZ airlines will screw their pilots down on employment conditions, only to shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to recruitment and retention. As you say, movement in NZ is underwhelming when compared to the UK, but it's heading in the right direction. We can only hope our employers will come to see the benifits of providing viable lifestyle options. Of course, it's up to us to make that message as clear as possible, and we are trying.

Thankyou for your constructive input :ok:

[Howard Hughes]

Seems to be no shortage of Kiwi pilot's in Oz!

Are you gonna take some of them back...;)

[komac2]

no you can keep them if want - just kidding.

[remoak]

FL440

i am guessing here that you have 146's and other jet aircraft in your fleet so im also sure you dont have a junior bunch as such behind the wheel

Correct on the fleet, however I am now looking to recruit some people with very low hours... in my experience, it builds stability into the F/O side of the operation as they will generally stay for three years or so before they move on (and of course they are bonded for those three years in any case). We used to recruit 250 hour, brand-new CPLs onto the 146 fleet in my previous company, and generally found them to be excellent.

Another thing that i dont think alot of companies in NZ have realised yet (maybe you have) is that if you keep the pilots happy then generally they stick around....pay etc, if their happy then they have the companies interests at heart (good for everyone) also it must be cheaper for a company to keep staff turnover at a low rate due to the cost of training and new staff etc etc

You have ABSOLUTELY hit the nail on the head. In my last company, it was conservatively estimated that we had spent over 1.5 million pounds on training directly attributable to higher than normal pilot turnover. The reason that the estimate was conservative, was that the bean counters got very scared when they realised how big the figure really was, and low-balled it. And, as you say, happy pilots go the extra mile... proven to save millions over a year.

I guess New Zealand is just a smaller market and is behaving in a reactive manner rather than a proactive manner? Also maybe the companies here are well aware that they are 'used' as a stepping stone so have made no attempt over the years to put policies in place to try and keep pilot retension to a maximum?

I'm afraid NZ is slow to adopt modern employment techniques. The current hiring mentality in some airlines has changed little since the '80s. As you say, they have made no attempt to retain pilots... they believe that it is inevitable that pilots will leave. I agree that some will leave, but many will stay if the lifestyle/pay issues are sorted. It is perfectly possible to structure a salary package that rewards loyalty - but they simply don't bother.

Now revisiting the AN 50 IF thing for a minute, the point about that policy is that, quite apart from amounting to a discrimatory employment practice (as it has no demonstrable impact on any employment parameter that matters), it is preventing AN from hiring some people who would probably stay with them forever, just to get the gig. When I did actually apply to AN, back in the early 90s, I got knocked back on that requirement, and so did at least five Kiwi mates of mine who were flying in Europe. All of us just wanted to go home, we all had over 5000 hours including lots of jet time, and we were all experienced skippers. We would have happily stayed with AN to get the base and the lifestyle we wanted -but they didn't even offer us interviews. By comparison, Origin Pacific were completely different in their approach.

As it happens, we all ended up being glad that we didn't end up in AN as our careers in Europe really took off, but AN missed a golden opportunity to get some experienced people who would have stayed for a long time.

The point I am making is that a forward-thinking airline will find ways to include experienced, capable pilots, rather than trying to find ways to exclude them. It is a very "old school" mindset that you see in NZ aviation.

Cloud Cutter

I must admit it does baffle me how many NZ airlines will screw their pilots down on employment conditions, only to shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to recruitment and retention.

I couldn't agree more. It was interesting that flybe in the UK essentially equalised the payscales on turboprops and jets a few years ago. They realised that they needed to make the turboprop more attractive in oder to retain pilots, so they raised the pay dramatically. They probably saved half of the increase in less training costs (fewer turboprop to jet conversions), and the other half in the increased effectiveness of very happy turboprop crews.

Imagine if Link carriers were making the same pay as mainline 737 drivers... now what would that do to the employment picture in NZ? It works in Europe...

[kiwi chick]

Seems to be no shortage of Kiwi pilot's in Oz!

Are you gonna take some of them back...

What, Howard, and have standards slip? :E

[mattyj]

Its not what you initially get payed. Most starting salaries are reasonable enough. Its just a great need to have regular increases..like first, second, third year FO pay..incentives for ATP subjects..First, second, third year captains pay etc... Allowances etc..get creative..Everyone loves to get called in to the managers office and told..you are doing a great job..have a pay rise.

Then you feel bad when you eventually move on!!

IMHO

[ZKSUJ]

Hey guys

I was just wondering, and I'm sure people on here will know. What are the minimum requiremnts for Air NS? And what are the realistic requirements?

I'm talking about twin time, totale time, ATO time, and I know about the 50 hour minimum IFR in NZ time but are realistic requirements more (like say 100 IFR NZ time)

The reason I'm asking is I cant find a website that says anything and I've heard many vastly conflicting things. One guys says 10 hours ATO time while another says 100 hours ATO time. Both these guys are not inside so its all speculation, would anyone on here be able to clear this up?

Thanks in advance

[HardCorePawn]

Hiring over here is fierce - it's a bit like it was in the '80s. Some regional airlines have hired in excess of 250 pilots in the last year, again partly due to expansion, partly due to folk moving on to bigger types. And that is REGIONAL airlines... I guess that is why I find NZ hiring figures somewhat underwhelming.

Just to put some context around this... can you give me an idea of the population base (ie. potential market size) supporting these regional airlines??

NZ has what... something like 4 to 5 million... with around 1/4 of that living in one place...

How many people live in Europe?

[Cpt Link Hog]

Remoak-

Just out of interest are you a TRG Cpt? and have you had much to do with NJS and their 146 op

Did you used to fly for safe out to NZCI

Cheers

[remoak]

HardCorePawn

Just to put some context around this... can you give me an idea of the population base (ie. potential market size) supporting these regional airlines??

Well... it depends.

Some airlines (ie Ryanair, Easyjet etc) have a Europe-wide presence - not sure what the population of Europe is but it must be in the hundreds of millions.

Others have a smaller catchment area - for example, Aer Arann, who I understand have hired 30-40 pilots so far this year, is essentially a local Irish operation (pop 4 million).

You could say that Air NZ (and by inference the Link carriers) has a population base of several hundred million, when you consider all the countries they fly into.

My point is that the population base has little to do with hiring patterns.

Cpt Link Hog

Yes I am a training captain, no I have nothing to do with NJS, and never flew with Safe (although I would have loved to have had a go in a Bristol Freighter).

[HardCorePawn]

My point is that the population base has little to do with hiring patterns.


I do not understand this logic... without a market to support it you either have either no business to begin with, or no room for expansion. In an industry that (predominantly) involves moving people from point A to point B, your market is people.

Imagine 2 new countries that appeared overnight... Country A with an area of around 10,000,000 sq. Km with a population base of say 700 million that has a relatively even population density... and Country B with an area of 250,000 sq. Km with a population base of 4.5 million, where around 1/4 to 1/3 of that population live in one area of 1,000 sq. Km...

Now we have some regional airlines setting up business in these 2 countries... in which country would you expect the most expansion and therefore hiring?

Granted it is a very simplistic view, and does not take into account terrorism, tourism, politics, war, sporting eventings, seasons, which way the wind is blowing etc. but I think the point is obvious.

Also, of these airlines that were hiring some 250 pilots... any idea how many they had to start off with? I would be interested to see the percentage increases as opposed to the raw numbers... as I would be less impressed if they already had say 6000 (a 4% increase), than an airline in NZ who only hired 10, but only had 60 to begin with (a 16% increase)...

Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics notwithstanding ;)

[remoak]

HardCorePawn

It has a lot to do with uptake by the travelling public... for example, take China. population 1.25 billion... 20% of the world's people live in China. How many airlines are there in China? Approximately 15 (I say approximately because I don't have the time to research it thoroughly, 15 is what I found relatively quickly).

Now if you were to work out the number of aircraft against the population base... well, hiring would have to be in the thousands per airline per year to come anywhere close to a similar comparison with the US or Europe. A simple "population base v airlines" comparison diesn't really work.

It is interesting that when Easyjet and Ryanair started up, their incredibly rapid expansion wasn't fuelled by capturing market share; they created their own market by offering low fares and enabling more people to travel. Hundreds of aircraft and crew, all employed on the basis of a customer base that didn't exist before the airline came to the market.

So the answer is... with the same population base, you create your market, thus allowing room for expansion.

Not sure of exact hiring percentage stats (ie number of existing pilots), but if I come across them, I'll post them. Suffice it to say that expansion in many Euro airlines is rapid, and at least five of them that I know of, are receiving a new aircraft every month, and will do so for a while yet. Does wonders for hiring!