Qantas CP unofficial comment on pilot shortage.

[hotnhigh]

Airlines grapple with chronic pilot shortage
3:44p.m. 19 October 2007

A chronic shortage of airline pilots is forcing the aviation industry into a crisis “bigger than the airline strike of 1989 and bigger than the Ansett collapse”.

That is the dire warning Qantas Group flight operations general manager and chief pilot Chris Manning gave to the Regional Aviation Association of Australia Convention at the Hyatt Coolum yesterday.

Qantas has unashamedly “poached” staff from regional airlines as it battles to meet heightened demands because of the low-cost airline boom.

Captain Manning said the crisis was “the worst I’ve seen in my 37 years”.

It was feared the pilot shortage could collapse regional airlines with Regional Express already warning its cancellation rate was “running at four times historical levels”.

REx chief of staff Jim Davis said the situation was only going to get worse, with industry feedback suggesting the “net additional requirement for pilots will be of the order of 1800 over the next two years”.

Fewer than 400 new airline transport pilot licences are issued in Australia every year.

Qantas alone will need to recruit about 300 pilots in the next two years and the other major airlines, Virgin, Jetstar, Cathay Pacific, are in the same boat.

“More than 20% of our pilots have been poached by Virgin, Jetstar and Qantas in the last three months and I am sure the situation is similar or worse in the other regional carriers,” Mr Davis said.

Captain Manning said the industry needed to put pressure on airlines and governments to find a solution.
:ugh:

[Wingspar]

The simple answer is one the airlines don't want to admit!

[Capt Fathom]

Show us the money.......!

[Roller Merlin]

Poaching is theft that violates certain rights of ownership. What rights does he refer to?
Pilots moving onto to higher paid jobs and/or greater responsibilities is called "career progression" like every other workplace..... not 'poaching':eek:!

[3 Holer]

Jim Davis knows how to fix the problem at Rex. Start treating the staff with a little respect and a small increase in remuneration for past and future services.

[Flight Me]

I was told when I started flight training, ( at the age of 25), that I had left my run too late to become a commercial pilot in the airlines. How *&%^ing happy am I that I did not listen to that advice. All I have to do is choose the highest bidder with the best conditions. And as with any industry, why wouldn't you. I thought poaching was when you put eggs in water or steam to cook. :8

[Paper Planes]

Captain Manning said the industry needed to put pressure on airlines and governments to find a solution.


Well the airlines talk about numbers to justify their decisions and many young people crunch the numbers these days too.

It isn't rocket science why young people want nothing to do with aviation. Time to pay up & treat people with respect :=

Airlines crying to the government is a waste of time. Aviation operators might get them to offer a rebate on pilot equipment like the tradies get on tools but paying for a pilots flight training is not going to happen.

[Keg]

What is interesting in all of this is that QF (who have pretty good terms and conditions albeit not world beating and they can always do better) have been caught in the perfect storm of LCCs like Virgin and Jetstar, and the regionals of all failing to pay decent money.

One of the reasons that many people put up with the less than optimal terms and conditions in the regionals for a period of time is because they know that when they hit the jackpot and crack an airline job that the pay will make up for all the bad years. That jackpot no longer exists because those terms and conditions at the other two 'majors' just isn't worth it- at least according to the many young people that I deal with in my 'other' job. So Qantas (as in Flight Ops) hasn't really caused this but Qantas (as in the airline) has certainly contributed to it by persisting with the J* terms and conditions and by failing to give their regional drivers terms and conditions that will see young people enter the industry.

Chris et al see the solution of making the training cheaper and that is certainly part of it but until you can guarantee a graduate of the flight school that if they get a job that they'll be on $40K or more (as most engineers are when they graduate from uni) then we're going to continue to see young people disengage from aviation as a career choice.

What frustrates me is that none of the journo's (this means you Gerard Frawley, Steve Creedy, Geoff Thomas, Ben Sandilands, etc) bother looking at that angle. I note that Gerard Frawley in this month's Australian Aviation quotes aircraft (of all people :rolleyes: :ugh: ) in his editorial and yet doesn't even get to the heart of the matter that without decent paying gigs, people just won't invest the money required to be a pilot.

Perhaps the real issues are beyond them, just as it appears the real issues are beyond the likes of Jim Davis and every other manager that is struggling to find pilots. Reap what you sow boys.

[neville_nobody]

Captain Manning said the industry needed to put pressure on airlines and governments to find a solution.

How about encouraging the more than qualified expats to return to Australia?

a graduate of the flight school that if they get a job that they'll be on $40K or more (as most engineers are when they graduate from uni) then we're going to continue to see young people disengage from aviation as a career choice.

A graduate who enters mining which would have similar work hours to a pilot who be on probably double that!! A $40k graduate would be a 9-5 gig!!

[GFPT]

I manage a 24 year old earning in excess of $70k-plus car and phone all for selling cars (prestige mind you) 5 days a week and he has no degree or HSC.

He states he would love to fly, but it is not worth the effort vs the reward. (Keg, you are spot on in regards to your coments !).

The only reason I am pursuing a flying career is I look skywards every day and cannot help being excited by piloting an aircraft :8. I will have to take a substantial pay cut (in excess of $50k) just to fullfill the dream.

[WynSock]

In this age of the net, the information (crap pay plus crap lifestyle) is easy to come by.
Either from the airline industry itself or even from more dubious sources like this forum. Just Google "cost to become a pilot"...He states he would love to fly, but it is not worth the effort vs the reward.

I rest my case.

And please aircraft, save us the diatribe about how easy the job is and not much effort is involved.

[chemical alli]

if there is such a shortage why is it that you guys still fork out the dollars to the likes of j star for interviews ,medicals ,sim chks and last but not least endorsements ? if the shortage exists surely it would be a sellers market not a buyers. at least the gingerbeers had the cohonos to not pay a fifteen dollar application fee for 787 jobs and they were still called

[knackeredII]

GFTP,

The excitement soon wears off when you find yourself continually asked to moderate your expectations, money wise and lifestyle wise, primarily so that the management can maximize their bonuses. Sounds like an oversimplification but is at the heart of the problem now facing the industry.

Keg, your comments are spot on!

[Nulli Secundus]

Does anyone really think airline owners and senior managers didn’t see this pilot shortage looming? Of course they did – its what they do - i.e to forecast/ predict and plan future trends. How else could they reequip and place orders for IT infrastructure, aircraft fleets and staff numbers for the next 5 – 10 years? Like any other business, airlines manage change and more importantly they usually engineer it.

James Strong could see the potential (and threat) of the LCC model many years ago and so set about putting the broom thru QF with outsourcing and department tendering/ bidding to put pressure on wages. It was always going to take time but this pilot shortage was always expected – thus the push to reduce wages & conditions years ago. The end result will be a wages policy that will match the business plan.

And does anyone think there’s not a plan in place to manage the short term fallout? Of course there is….you hear it from ‘startled’ Chief Pilots, CEO’s and senior managers reporting a “sudden” pilot shortage. It softens the impact with shareholders & passengers, gains them public support and can even provide them leverage for plans to reduce training minimums, adjust F&D limitations and apply for immigration concession. This is all about change management and its part of a long term, on going strategy.

[WynSock]

Chemical Ali,
if there is such a shortage why is it that you guys still fork out the dollars to the likes of j star for interviews ,medicals ,sim chks and last but not least endorsements ?Why?

Some people taking the jet*/DJ road make a judgment based on the numbers, and it looks OK dollars/lifestyle wise.
Some the guys/girls that will pay up front for a chance at a jet job are used to being abused - they came through GA remember.
They are also the type of people who would continue to fly even if they won the lottery tomorrow.
Some of the deluded people who the airlines are now recruiting are drawn to the job by the kudos and perceived glamour. That little chicken may come home to roost at a later date.
The airlines are loath to admit the fact that the experience standard of suitable candidates is indeed dropping. They may be reaching the 'bottom' of the barrel on this one.
The rhetoric of "industry standard' to defend ridiculous requests for large wads of cash prior to employment turns off what I think may be anecdotally a large number of experienced pilots with......integrity.

:)

[WynSock]

Nulli,Like any other business, airlines manage change and more importantly they usually engineer it. I don't know about that. The company I work for has become extremely reactive, running around putting out spot fires of its own making.

It all started two years ago with the addition more and more aeroplanes to the fleet which
was met with........... "lets get the existing crew to cover it for now"

and then................. "lets pat ourselves on the back for running our human resource more efficiently"

to......................... " Captain Manning said the industry needed to put pressure on airlines and governments to find a solution."


wtf?

Manage change? :confused:

[freddyKrueger]

Does anyone really think airline owners and senior managers didn’t see this pilot shortage looming? Of course they did – its what they do - i.e to forecast/ predict and plan future trends
Spot on, I suspect they have know about this for quite some time.
Further, there cannot be a 'crisis' for a listed company without an appropriate filing with the ASX or in the annual report. I haven't seen 'pilot shortage' reported as a material risk for QAN. There cannot be a 'crisis' until that threshold is crossed. This is simply trying to gouge the taxpayer & pilots simultaneously.

[Nulli Secundus]

WynSock

I'm not sure about how your company operates or handles its growth - granted some may get it wrong or misjudge future trends - however those with structured management teams which utilise sophisticated planning tools & processes forsee these outcomes. They know what to expect and how to accomodate the impact so that they achieve a lower cost base, better productivity or whatever the aim is.

When Chris Manning makes the statement "the industry needed to put pressure on airlines and governments to find a solution." its a furphy. He already knows the solution i.e pay pilots more and ensure more pilots are trained. He's simply playing his small part in the bigger company process. And rest assured any public statement made by someone at his level would be not be 'off the cuff'.

Can you see the process unfolding?

Assuming the quote has been accurately reported, he's actually lobbying others (the industry) to put pressure on the government & his own employer (the airlines) to solve the problem. Think about it.

Its not an industry problem! Its an airline problem!

Why would Chris Manning make that statement? Because he knows and more importantly his employer knows, the average reader can be led to believe the crewing shortage is something they have had little control over. By building a case as a victim of circumstance beyond their control, they can leverage public & shareholder support (due lack of flights, reduced or no regional services and declining shareholder value) to ensure their business plan achieves its objectives i.e aircraft crewed on wages matching their wages policy with productivity levels also matching future plans.

[QFinsider]

Spot on Keg...
Industrial deafness is at an all time high.
Mis-management have had the benefit of the LCC perfect storm, now it is time for the clean up.

In pursuing the Dixon/Oldmeadow model of divide and conquer, drive it all into the ground, encourage scalping, they have unwittingly opened a pandora's box...

Pilots are not there anymore to be divided and conquered. (Sure there will always be a few). The consequence for management in their apporach to drive down costs, encourage higher paid staff to leave, transfer assets to "lower cost" models is fatally flawed. It assumes there is an abundant supply of labour. There simply isn't.

Career progression
Remuneration
Integrity in management
Mutual respect

The company has tried to play hard ball, not realising the tide had in fact turned. Sack "old" meadow, Mannering and hopefully the board will also be cleaned out. Get back to builind margin instead of destroying it. Clever accounting will only hide the true cost of the Dixon era for so long.

"It's all about bucks, the rest is conversation"- Gordon Gecko

Q is reaping as it sowed as are many other employers, not just in aviation :E

[Nulli Secundus]

CPL holders with a NVFR or CIR rating are invited to apply for a FIR scholarship with Basair Aviation College. Suitable candidates will be trained for their Grade 3 instructor rating at no cost in exchange for a period of service to Basair - Job ad. AFAP website

Anyone can see, solving the crewing issue is easy.

The major airlines know this, infact many used to run inhouse ab initio crew training. Retaining crew is not rocket science either. Unfortunately, low wages and conditions (relative to a flight crew members' responsibility and skill level) have and will continue to decline.
One would expect morale to follow also, maybe not long term.

For mine, anyone choosing to become a professional pilot or continue as one needs to have either a plan B..i.e build a secondary revenue stream and/ or an early exit strategy, a passionate resolve to lobby industry groups, colleagues & employers to boost wages & conditions or be satisfied with what's on offer & live within their means.

There are choices however just like airline managers, aviation professionals such as pilots & engineers need to find ways to manage the future changes for themselves. Old fashioned values of loyalty and pride in one's company have diminshed significantly in aviation and trying to hold on to them or even resurrect them, particularly in Australian aviation, is unfortunatley not part of the programme these days. Airline Partners will tell you that.

[Icarus2001]

Once again where is the required comment and rebuttle from the professional association of pilots in Australia? The AFAP, AIPA anyone...a deathly silence.

Every time one of these management types comes out with the "poor us, what can we do" speeches the pilot associations should be releasing media releases to everyone putting the flight/cabin crew side of the story.

Guys we are letting management spin soften up the public and the decision makers.

[Sunfish]

When will some of you D***heads understand??????????

QFinsider gets it in one:

"It's all about bucks, the rest is conversation"- Gordon Gecko

There is no shortage, THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF PILOTS WILLING TO WORK AT QANTAS PAY SCALES.

MANNING IS SIMPLY WHINING BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY YOU THE MONEY THAT WOULD ATTRACT MORE PILOTS AND END HIS PROBLEM.... CAN'T YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS????????????

If he doubled pilots salaries would there be a shortage of pilots at Qantas? Of course not!

[Paper Planes]

Well said Sunfish :ok:

A Substantial pay increases across aviation and management willing to respect pilots will change the dynamics of the aviation industry.

[blow.n.gasket]

How can Qantas Group manage the pilot shortage?
Wouldn't have anything to do with management telling all new recruits in QantasLink and Australian Air Express etc that they will have career progression into Mainline Qantas in a few years would it?
See cryptic QantasLink Advertisment in The Australian on Friday

In November and December the QantasLink Recruitment Team will be holding information sessions to provide aspiring QantasLink pilots details on:
-QantasLink pilot employment
-Qantas recruitment (qualifying period applies)
-Recent changes to the selection process.


Sounds like the Qantas Group Opportunity List that AIPA were pushing for.
Didn't Dixon say "over his dead body"
Time will tell.

[SkyScanner]

MANNING IS SIMPLY WHINING BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY YOU THE MONEY THAT WOULD ATTRACT MORE PILOTS AND END HIS PROBLEM.... CAN'T YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS????????????

Last time I checked, Qantas doesn't have a problem attracting staff:hmm:

[bloggs2]

Sunfish, not just the bucks, why would anyone want to come home and sit in the right hand seat and wait for a queue of 1000 hour Chieftan drivers (no disrespect intended to 1000 hour Chieftan drivers, by the way) to get their commands before you can get a command on an aircraft that you already have a command on?

All for less money and you can pay to get yourself home as well. Bargain, where do I sign up? Not!

As someone famous once said "No bucks, no Buck Rogers!"

Skyscanner, they may or may not have a problem attracting them but they will have a problem keeping them if they aren't carefull! From where I am sitting I fail to see what is so attractive about them anyway. The future is Jet* remember.

[corowacomet]

"....If he doubled pilots salaries would there be a shortage of pilots at Qantas? Of course not!..."

I don't want to take aircraft's position on this because I genuinely believe pilot remuneration leaves a lot to be desired but statements like these are simplistic at best. The real concern airline management teams have is that they will be forced to engage themselves in a bidding war for pilots. This could present a situation where wages increase at almost all carriers, which would of course bring them all back to square one......they are short of pilots because their payscales aren't competitive on a relative basis, even though salaries HAVE doubled! Great for us but not so great for LCCs that may have a somewhat limited ability to pass on costs without experiencing some loss of demand. It isn't hard to see why they are so worried and hence will try anything in order to reduce their exposure to the problem. If I was one of them I wouldn't be sleeping too soundly.
The Comet.

[2p!ssed2drive]

Just bringing up the point which neville_nobody raised...

Expats...

I've been an Expat for a while now, flying twin turbo-props. My base salary is the same as a REX FO (I'm not complaining - I'm greatful to have a job), HOWEVER - Our benefits include,

- All housing/accomodation is supplied (electricity, gas, water)
- You get a tax-free per-diem allowance
- Company cars anywhere you need to go
- Attractive Tour Working, with the company paying for your ticket back home every time you go on break.

So, in terms of money, I'm already.... Well I don't know how much per year you could estimate on the abovementioned things. But do you think I'd give up my job now to go work for REX..... Certainly not. Crikey, I wouldn't want to pay for a power bill out of my 40k for the year. I have to eat and so do the kids! :ok:

[WynSock]

cometthey are short of pilots because their payscales aren't competitive on a relative basis, even though salaries HAVE doubled!

Trouble is, pilots are falling behind bus drivers, council workers and shop assistants.

It's not a problem of salaries between pilots per se.

[bloggs2]

Bugger, must have missed it when my pay DOUBLED!? Bloody wife and kids must be nicking it before I get to see it!

Sure did notice when the amount of time spent in an aircraft nearly doubled though! So did the wife and kids.

[FlexibleResponse]

****-kicking-airline management have been kicking young pilot's arses for years.

Now that the boot is on the other foot, can you believe these same airline management pricks are asking for Government assistance?

When I joined CX twenty-something years ago, I had an interview with the Director of Flight Operations. He told me that he just received a call from the Chief of Air Staff of the RAAF. The CAS had complained to the DFO about poaching of "his" pilots. I asked the DFO what reply he gave.

The DFO said, "I said to him that if you paid them what they are worth, then they wouldn't leave!" He then hung up.

...nothing has changed...

[ScottyDoo]

When will some of you D***heads understand??????????
Very eloquent, Sunfish. :rolleyes: What do you care, anyway??

There is no shortage, THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF PILOTS WILLING TO WORK AT QANTAS PAY SCALES.

MANNING IS SIMPLY WHINING BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO PAY YOU THE MONEY THAT WOULD ATTRACT MORE PILOTS AND END HIS PROBLEM.... CAN'T YOU GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS????????????

If he doubled pilots salaries would there be a shortage of pilots at Qantas? Of course not!

Would there be a shortage of pilots at Qantas? Obviously not. But there would be at the other airlines, you nincompoop. :rolleyes:

But of course your example is flawed: rest assured, there is no "shortage" of pilots willing to work at Quantas at existing pay scales. Despite your own frequently-trotted out hang-ups and personal neuroses about the national flag-carrier, Quantas is still typically seen as the pinnacle in this country for motivated and suitably-educated pilots.

Manning has not been quoted as saying Qwantas will suffer due to this "shortage". He refers to the industry and regionals in particular.

There is no shortage, THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF PILOTS WILLING TO WORK AT QANTAS PAY SCALES.

I thought you were smart. Obviously the pilot workforce (typically) migrate "upwards" in terms of job-standrads and finish up in the "majors". When GA companies have to advertise for a B58 pilot, turbine operators are offering FIFO arrangements and regionals are cancelling flights due to lack of crew, I would suggest to you that there is a real shortage of pilots.

Are you seriously suggesting pilots have decided to go elsewhere rather than work for Qwannus? If so, then where?

Signal-to-noise ratio, Sunfish......... :rolleyes:


On the topic of quotes:

a crisis “bigger than the airline strike of 1989..."

I hope those weren't really his words. Did the "airlines" actually go on strike in '89??? What a f***wit. :rolleyes:

the industry needed to put pressure on airlines and governments to find a solution.

The solution will be the import of foreign labour.

[Sunfish]

Doodoo, Sorry but I'm speaking from direct experience dealing with manufacturers and other employers as part of a State Government.

It's not only the airline industry that whines about shortages - all industries do, but they conveniently always leave out the second phrase of their whine to whit:

"I can't find enough skilled people to work for me, at the wages I want to pay them!"


I'm afraid you have forgotten about the large numbers of pilots who have left the industry completely. There is no need to import foreign labor. it's the same in almost all industries I can think of - the plumber/electrician/toolmaker/nurse/policeman/welder/LAME who are now running their own shop or lawn mowing business after getting fed up with wages and conditions - thats where the common wisdom about changing careers four or five times comes from.

For example, my first degree is in engineering, but do I want to go back to designing tooling for annealing cartridge cases as I once did? Nope. The hours and pay were crap, but I still could, if push came to shove, and someone offered me $250K per annum.

[slice]

blow.n.gasket - nothing really cryptic about the add in Fridays Australian. Since about Feb this year there has been a procedure for Link pilots applying to Qantas mainline. After 2 years of link services you get one exemption on the requirements if you provide your FT9 scores (or have them provided by Qlink). Rather Lame really.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

ScottyDoo,

Guys are coming to QF but leaving on unprecedented numbers. Direct from the DCP to me: QF management is concerned. The biggest worry is the late-20's/early-30's F/O demographic. The reasons are various for the resignations. Not just money, but promotion and other T&C's. 10 years to command in QF vs 5 in EK, for example. Equitable rostering in a company such as CX as opposed to non-equitable rosters (due to seniority) in QF. Etc etc. One departee said to me: "I can achieve in 10 years in EK what would take 20 years in QF". Sure, different lifestyle, but unlike a decade ago guys are actually doing something about it because the opportunities are tangible and rewarding. Blimey, we just lost a -400 F/O to the desert - he would have been a year or so off a QF command! What does that tell you? His reasons include aversion to being stuck at the bottom of a 767 Capt seniority list, flogging up and down the east coast, when in 3 years he could be commanding 777's around the world.

Now that reality, combined with a drying up of supply, is getting the attention of Mr Mannering et al.

Believe it.

[DUXNUTZ]

So is the flow through to Mainline practical or a carrot?

[teggun]

I don't know if it is a carrot or not, I do know unless some form of career progression is given to QLink within the very near future, they will be in a similar position to Rex.

By delaying the process all it is doing is forcing more and more people to apply to Virgin. In a lot of cases for the people that have been there for more than lets say 10 years the most difficult decision is, "will I apply or not, I have been in my comfort zone for 10 years".

Once that decision is made, the momentum has started and it will then take a lot more than a retention bonus and dropping one of the Mainline requirements to prevent people from leaving.

Basically the ball is in management's hands, the clock is ticking and the activation process has started.

Bring it on soon, or turn out the lights. :ugh:

[Ref + 10]

ScottyDoo, I would like to thank you for the chuckle you inspired from me with the simple use of the old classic - "nincompoop". Gold! :ok:

[43Inches]

If QF and VB are finding it so easy to find staff then why are their cancellation rates the highest in the domestic market? They both have been steadily increasing towards 2.0% since the start of the year! Rex and QFlink are at the bottom of the list (to end August) but that will probably change as the next few months are released.

[Launch_code_Harry]

Billionaire plea for cheap labour

October 21, 2007 12:00am

Article from: http://www.news.com.au/images/sources/h14_sundaytelegraph.gif (http://www.sundaytelegraph.news.com.au/?from=ni_story)
BILLIONAIRE retailer Gerry Harvey says Australia needs a two-tier wage system to allow employers to pay foreign guest workers less than locals.
The Harvey Norman boss said Australia's prosperity was creating a labour shortage and endangering the nation's competitiveness.
He said a growing number of Australian manufacturers were moving overseas, where cheap labour was plentiful.
He called on the Federal Government to allow foreign workers on fixed visas to form a second tier to the labour market.
"Australia doesn't have cheap labour. Many overseas workers would be prepared to move here for a much better life and half the money Australians earn," he said.
"When you get unemployment down to four per cent, to three per cent, to two per cent, business can't get the labour.

"I've got horse studs and it's difficult to get staff.

"Workers would rather work in the mines where they get paid twice as much.

"Fruit- picking companies are relying on backpackers."
Mr Harvey said both major parties needed to open the gates to migrants.
"The US can draw on a lot of cheap labour from Mexico and South America," he said.
"People from those countries move to the US looking for a better life.

"European countries can draw on cheap labour from eastern Europe.
"The danger of being too prosperous is that it can come back to bite you - you can become too lazy and other nations work harder and overtake you."
"What I'm saying is not politically correct.

"You won't get politicians saying what I'm saying, but privately they know this sort of thing is a reality in the future."...............
source (http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,22619233-462,00.html)

[Jet_A_Knight]

I've got a better idea!

let's get our navy & merchant fleet, go out to the pacific islands and press-gang the locals into slavery!

That's cheaper than cheap labour!:ok:

What i'm saying is not politically correct - that admission makes that kind of statement alright.:rolleyes:

Hey Gerry, if you want someone to clean out your stables - show them the money

Tightar$e. :mad:

[lambsie]

QF's cancellation rate is climbing because of tired, clapped-out, old aeroplanes flogging around Australia, constantly breaking down. These old workhorses are begging for preventative maintenance as well as day to day repairs. :cool:

[CaptCloudbuster]

SkyScanner Quote:Last time I checked, Qantas doesn't have a problem attracting staff
Watch this space... I've heard on good authority that QANTAS is actually down to the bare bones of it's arse to fill some upcoming intakes for the 400!!:uhoh:
The hold file is bare:{
We might even see some 400's parked through lack of crew as a direct result:eek::ok:

[abozic]

Cloudbuster,

I really hope that is true!

Good news for me, I'm waiting for the call.

[excellr8]

Someone made the point earlier that it was just clever politics to draw attention to the fact that pilots arnt hanging on tree's anymore and it's about to get serious. I find it insulting that he (QF CP) now tries to jump on the band wagon to justify why he has not been able to deliver the pilot group. Looks like just another backflip which the pilot group has come accustomed to expect from this man.....

[Dan Winterland]

Quote from Flexible Response

"When I joined CX twenty-something years ago, I had an interview with the Director of Flight Operations. He told me that he just received a call from the Chief of Air Staff of the RAAF. The CAS had complained to the DFO about poaching of "his" pilots. I asked the DFO what reply he gave.

The DFO said, "I said to him that if you paid them what they are worth, then they wouldn't leave!" He then hung up.

...nothing has changed..."



Actually something has changed. The Cathay group has to my knowledge lost two pilots returning to the RAF, and one to the RAAF. They may be more.

The pilot shortage is hitting hard here in the Fragrant Harbour with lots of expat pilots expressing an interest in returning home, particluarly to Oz. This won't be helped by Cathay imposing a 3% pay rise on their pilots, the first for seven years.

[soarer78]

I had the minimums for QF 7 years ago. Since then I have flown all around the world in a few different types of jets. Why would I want to go to QF now to be a radio operator for a few years. I would also have to wait until all the instructors, scenic pilots and GA pilots with 500multi to be upgraded before I could. I think that seniority may have seen its day. Bring on sideways movements. If you don’t like the idea of this now think about it a bit more, its not going to slow down upgrade times by much if most companies do it. Do you want to work for the same carrier for 30+ years in this day and age. I don’t think so but its so hard to move knowing you will go straight to the bottom every time? So is QF a good job? It would have been for me 4-7 years ago but now……… NO WAY, not as it stands right now! So lets face it the window for a lot of pilots of getting into QF is about 5 years. After that you are probably flying jets already and don’t want such a big demotion just to fly for QF. The pilot market for QF is not as big as many would think. I don’t know why anyone would leave a command or even FO positions from overseas, VB or even Skywest to be a QF SO.

Fix up the antiquated seniority system
Improve terms and conditions of employment
Dump the payment for ratings
Increase salaries

Result
Experienced crews from overseas will come home and slot in Aussie airlines without going backwards in all the above mentioned areas
Make being a pilot a better proposition and investment to wannabe’s
Increase the amount of pilots in the pools for operators to employ from

Its an easy fix to a problem you created for yourself.

[Wings Of Fury]

The clapped out airlines I have worked for have been professional training organisations; you go there get experience and move on to something better, I never thought it would still be happening in the “majors” if you can call the LCCs that :hmm:

And the one ONLY good thing about paying for an endorsement is ITS YOURS! no bond, and when you find a better job you can just leave, and management is left scratching there head. why don't LCC provide training and then bond pilots, its one way to keep them.

[Capt Fathom]

I had the minimums for QF 7 years ago. Since then I have flown all around the world in a few different types of jets. Why would I want to go to QF now to be a radio operator for a few years

Soarer.

If you had joined QF 7 years ago, you would have...

flown all around the world in a few different types of jets, and
had a window seat several years ago from which to enjoy the view!

One of those lowly instructors, scenic pilots and GA pilots with 500multi would be operating the radio for you! :rolleyes:

[Poto]

The pilot market for QF is not as big as many would think. I don’t know why anyone would leave a command or even FO positions from overseas, VB or even Skywest to be a QF SO.

might be for you buddy but plenty have done it, just as plenty of QF crew are looking to move out, Each to their own:cool:

Fix up the antiquated seniority system
Improve terms and conditions of employment
Dump the payment for ratings
Increase salaries

Are you suggesting QF should not place someone like you in a Junior SO role because of your vast Jet time?
Why? Any QF SO has to meet a standard that enables them to change seats when the position becomes available. QF does have a very archaic rostering system though, that is entirely seniority based. It has vast problems and costs QF millions extra $ each year. Making it a little more fair would stem some of the outflow of crew or least some discontent.

QF do not yet charge for endorsements in the mainline operation either:ok:

[countdownconundrum]

I have been wanting to return to Australia for years and there has never been a better time. The low salaries and everything mentioned above is a huge turnoff. I fly A320 LHS, and frankly very shy about giving it up.

Then again, if I don't take the chance I'll never know, if I wanted to live in the uk forever, well I would, but hardly think so. Sick of the poms, the crappy weather, and the warm beer. Bring me back to oz, I'm in. Its a lifestyle move!!:)

Trust me, I'll prob never ern the bucks I'm on now, but then again, I'm not enjoying sydney harbour on my off days am I? Its all about lifestyle.

Sit on the jumpseat for a few years of a big thing with a rat on the tail? Laugh at the guys taking themselves very seriously in the RHS, whilst chatting up the Aussie chicks bringing me in tea!! bring it on!!

To be honest, I think things will come good, it can't go on like this! My plan is just to get home! After that, who knows.

Only problem is Jetstar? VB? QF? Long term, I'm probably young enough for QF, ie 30 ish. Does anyone have salary details for QF yr 1?? all in?? same for Jetstar?

Cheers.. TT6000, A320 cp, soon to be QF SO!!

[mmmbop]

Guys are coming to QF but leaving on unprecedented numbers

Seniority number movement would say otherwise.

And the oft-heard argument of "the 5 year LWOP guys aint coming back" is yet again just slip port dribble.

M

[ScottyDoo]

the jumpseat for a few years of a big thing with a rat on the tail...whilst chatting up the Aussie chicks bringing me in tea!!

I almost thought you were serious til you got to that part! :p

[QFinsider]

The seniority statistic is a once a year update.

July 1 saw unprecedented super changes....The amount of retirements/resignations being dropped on the desk can be hidden until July next year...


The are plenty of guys on LSL of varying duration who will not be back, including the former DCP!! These guys show as on the books until retirement.
It isn't just Captains leaving..Then again believe what Mannering says, after all he has no reason other than to tell it as it is......:E

[Chimbu chuckles]

Is it just me who finds Gerry Harvey's words disconcerting...distastefull even...and all to typical of modern management mentality?

Real wages have been going backwards for 35 odd yrs...but not backwards enough for Millionaire and Billionaire business owners/managers.

If you ever needed more proof that we indeed live in an economy not a society there it is...the concept that low unemployment is bad because it reduces competition for available jobs and drives up wages. That people actually getting payrises that, at least, keep abreast of real inflation is a bad thing. That poor Gerry can't make a few more billion before he shuffles off his mortal coil because he can't employ asian labour at 1/2 the rate of local labour.

I used to wonder why sucessive Australian Govts maintained immigration while unemployment rates were 5, 6 or more % while simultaneously bleating to the electorate how reducing unemployment was their 'top' priority.

The reality is that their (Govt and business) idea of nirvana is levels of unemployment at high enough levels so that employers can continue to say "If you don't like it leave...there are 20 more who want your job".

You'd almost have to assume the big reason for Govt lack of interest in the aviation industry over the years was because they already figured it was near perfect...10 applicants for every job.:ugh:

"I've got horse studs and it's difficult to get staff.

You'd have to assume the feckwit understands the law of supply and demand...as do they all...they just REALLY cannot stand the thought of it not working in their favour but someone elses...it actually upsets him enough to go to the media and have a whinge...what amazing contempt.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

mmmbop: I've got no idea what you mean by "seniority number movement". Lack of change of it? Your number, in particular? If you're half way up the list you're probably not seeing much change since it's guys below you doing the walking. Mate, this is just semantics anyway: the facts are, in my 15 years at the Rat, 2007 has seen the highest number of juniorish F/Os up and leave (via resignation or LWOP). A number of S/Os have bailed too - some even returning to the RAAF. Not enough to shut the joint down, but it is concerning management. DCP KI told a group of us at a recent meeting, mate! And don't kid yourself - it's a 50:50 whether those on LWOP will return. Add to this retirements at the top end (yes, many are sitting on the books, eating up LSL AL, etc, totally non-productive yet still holding a seniority number) and QF is suddenly scrabbling for replacements.... If you are sitting in a position where you can take advantage of all this, then just have patience.

Chimbu Chuckles: Yes, I actually took my business to somewhere other than Harvey Norman yesterday after reading that crap from poor old Gerry. What a tosser, and that's being polite. What a prime example of how too many wealthy people have nothing but contempt for labour in Australia. Gerry Harvey would rather see the average standard of living in Australia driven downwards so that he can make more profit. Fcuk everybody else, just as long as I'm ok, is Gerry's mantra. Gerry - you can't get/retain staff for your multiple horse studs because obviously you're a tight a$$. If I ever achieve just a single horse stud, I hope I'll continue to believe in fair day's pay for fair day's work. Then again, maybe all that time around horse sh!t affects the brain somehow....

The parallels between poor ol' Gerry's troubles and those of Aust airline management are uncanny. Whether we are talking about inviting cheap Indian labourers downunder to shovel Gerry's sh!t for $1 a day, or whether doing recruitment drives for Ukrainian pilots - it's the same story. It's been said before, but once again: reap what you sow.

[speeeedy]

TT6000, A320 cp, soon to be QF SO!!

Are we supposed to be impressed?

6000, big deal, that is about half of what most of the guys taking themselves very seriously in the RHS have.

[SIUYA]

Chimbu.............no, you're not alone. I also found Harvey's words distasteful from the perspective that his statement:

I've got horse studs and it's difficult to get staff

seemed to convey to me that what he was actually saying was:

It's bloody hard to get people to get people to shovel sh1t if you're only prepared to pay them sh1t

What a tosser. :ugh:

[Jet_A_Knight]

Chimbu et al, see my previous post.

Big and medium business has been make ****eloads of money in this country - all with the uncompetitve wage levels that we 'expect' . So, how much profit do these guys really want to make? Work'choices':rolleyes: has not yet been enough to keep wages down as was the original plan, and now in some fields, business has to start forking out for their labour.:hmm:

The free market economy and market forces are pointed to when it means that workers get their jobs, t's& c's, price of food, fuel etc pulled out of their ar$es, but when it swings the other way, and workers actually are in some sort of demand, well, it hurts these prikcs just a little too much.

As an aside, foreign guest workers could prove really useful on another front. It will give the tabloids fodder for sales and the talkback radio twats (and their callers) when they report of the 'increase in crime', their congregating into 'ghettos' and not 'assimilating', and not accepting the 'aussie way'. :rolleyes:

Finally, if Gerry wants someone to clean out his stables, and the mines in WA are paying $130,000pa for a worker, then Gerry had better shell out $130,001 - or, pick up the shovel or, get rid of the horses.:ugh:

[Capt Kremin]

When I joined QF all those aeons ago, one enterprising chap placed a computer generated list in my pigeon hole that showed me where I would be on the seniority list in future years.
At that time the retiring age was 55 with an extension possible to 58. Most guys would retire at 55 wth a few extending

Over the years, with the introduction of age 60 retirement, the -400 pay rates, then the Pref bidding system which made it financially advantageous to be super senior, then the retiring age going over 60, this little list of mine became a bit of a hollow joke... I was soon many numbers lower on the list that it predicted.

I lost that list for a while till I came upon it last week. I re-read it for nostalgia sake, then I noticed something interesting. My current seniority number is about three years out of where the list predicts I should be, which makes a lot of sense considering the original predicted where I would be if everyone retired three years earlier than they currently do.

What is more interesting is that this list, interpreted now for the three year discrepancy, points to 2008 on as the time that I finally start making up some ground. Up till now, the average retirement numbers per year have been 15 p.a. This list shows a doubling of that number for the next few years to 30 p.a.

With the changes in the super rules making going past 60, financially at least, a silly thing to do; it gives hope to those of us still way down there that real movement is about to occur. When you consider that one -400 captain retiring, generates nines promotional slots plus X number of new entries, you can see why the CP is worried.

Good news for all current QF pilots and those wanting to join.

[SOPS]

Hate to say it..yet again...but this entire mess all stems from that year we cannot mention..when open season was declared on pilots and pilots conditions. The managers have assumed, from that time on, that is was "open season" on flight crew in Australia, and have adopted a "lets see how low can we go" approach.
Well, I think they might have their answer now in 2007...they have gone so low that the GPWS is sounding off. Yet they still dont want to admit it, that they have to PAY pilots what they are worth and show them some RESPECT.
They cannot keep expecting people to pay for interviews, endorsments, manuals, toilet paper on board, and pay them less than the local pizza boy and expect people to flock to the industry.
Its over, they have had their run..they ran the race and it looks like they are losing it at last...it just remains to be seen if the can pull their heads out of their respective a:mad:ses and admit it. (Some how I doubt that will happen)
To repeat what has been said many times...They are reaping what they have sowed...and I hope they stew in it.
As for Harvey....a complete tosser and I will be remembering to to shop there in the future.... rant over

[Gnadenburg]

The flaw to that argument SOPS is Virgin Blue.

Experience came cheap and opportunity was self-funded. And where did a good proportion of the culture come from? Yes, that year..........

[Angle of Attack]

Harvey Norman is a rip off anyway, I use their shops as a browsing area then go down to china town and buy it off the local chinese seller for usually Harvey Norman -20% . He is a tosser anyway and always has been, nothing new there. Yes pilots in QF are retiring and $hite loads more than we all know. Heaps are about to pull the plug with no notice, thats a fact. Bring it on. Its time to... SHOW ME THE MONEY!

[QFinsider]

Makes you wonder why the short haul boys signed off an EBA without waiting.
The whole thing was railroaded through by management and no real evidence to suggest that the union had enough time to pick through it...

One of those times to sit on our hands and wait...what is the hurry to sign up to a deal??

The ball is most definitely in our court. If collectively we realise this then perhaps, just perhaps, respect will be forthcoming and remuneration that reflects our contribution will follow...:ok:

(we are only a part of the process, but an important part nonetheless)

[QFinsider]

I can't recall what forum I posted this on..

But the ABS published an occassional paper on demographics and workplace aging...

Fascinating reading and has been coming for the last 40 years..Claims to the contrary that companies haven't seen it coming are crap....

The problem for Dixon/Oldmeadow and even Mannering are that they are part of the aging workforce...Dare I say it yesterday's men.:E

Guys are leaving QF, not only Captains. Friends of mine in the S/O ranks have had collegaues depart who were S/O's. That rarely if ever happened in the past. It was only a year or so ago when Bogetti claimed the pilot shortage wouldn't affect Q.

[freddyKrueger]

"But Ken Phillips, work reform director at the the Institute of Public Affairs, says neither [political] parties position seems to acknowledge Australia is on the verge of a"demographic tsunami", which would have dire consequences for the labour market.
He cites an Access Economics report saying that while there were 140,000 new job entrants in 2006-07, this figure would fall to 50,000 by 2011-12, representing a shortfall of 290,000 over the next five years - a shortfall driven by population ageing and the retirement of baby boomers. Demographic Tsunami Ahead, Page 61, Australian Financial Review, 22 Oct 2007

[freddyKrueger]

Believe what you like, here's the Occasional Paper No2 (http://www.facs.gov.au/research/op02/sec3.htm) (Department of Family Services) QFinsider was alluded to. Read that and make your own mind up.

[Low-Pass]

QF Insider

The ball is most definitely in our court. If collectively we realise this then perhaps, just perhaps, respect will be forthcoming and remuneration that reflects our contribution will follow...


Just don't take your eye off that ball. It seems to me that no-one is taking the idea of imported labour seriously. That it "won't happen" is a very, very dangerous assumption to make. Look at '89. When suddenly there were "no pilots", foreign pilots came in droves from Europe and the US. Some stayed and some left.

LCCs like easyjet and Ryanair in Europe manage have a plentiful supply of pilots who continue to pay for their type rating despite the strong market conditions for the pilots. Their source? Eastern Europe when the EU expanded by another 10 countries in 2005. Maybe some of them want to move to Oz?

The Asian market is expanding at an incredible rate. Look at India and China. Mostly A320s and 737NG. All type and airline qualified. Maybe some of them want to move to Oz?

I doubt that, in his plea to the government, Manning really expects the government to contribute to pilot training. I think he's after easy access visas for pilots just the way there CURRENTLY is for hairdressers, mechanics and other "trade" jobs. He's just softening people up so that they'll accept that there is a pilot shortage.

Don't think that just because you WANT higher pay and better T&Cs that you'll get it. You need to fight and be persistant. The people who you will be going head-to-head with have been scr3wing people for a long time and they're god at it.

Watching the space,

LP

[QFinsider]

thanks Freddy, that's the one!!
Low-pass,
Definitely it's a soften up. My company is a bit like the media. Believe little of what you read less of what you hear, particulalry when it comes from the mouth of mis-management. Bit like J* int. Be good boys sign an EBA and we will let you in on J* int, when in actuality the deal was done. After Dixon said it would never exist in the first place!

The problem now is that Ryan Air et al have dispensed with a lot of up front costs dumped previously on the applicant. This is necessary to hold the skilled employee. Immigration is one way to tackle a short term shortage, however it is not politically palatable.. As the Demographic paper alludes to, the problem will not be and cannot be addressed by immigration alone. Real wages and conditions for all SKILLED employees will rise.
In downsizing, rightsizing, scaring and intimidating workers employees are now just like all other "resources"-they go to the higher bidder. QF loyalty was second to none! Not these days :E

The actual logic alluded to by Costello for "work-lack- of-choices" was to limit the ability of skilled/short labour to bid up due scarcity their real wages.

As you reap you shall sow...

[TurbineDreamer]

So it is pretty clear what everyone has to do. You know who to vote for to get rid of work choices, and then lets see Mr Dixon start sweating a bit.

[freddyKrueger]

Companies must plan to fill void left as boomers retire

October 23, 2007 A looming "tsunami" of baby boomer retirements could decimate the management ranks and hobble productivity at many corporations unless companies intensify efforts to develop younger talent, according to a new study.

Many executives are aware of the coming "gray drain," the study, by the accounting firm Ernst & Young, said. But not enough of them have taken steps to head off skill shortages and turnover that could hurt the bottom line.

"The demographics are irrefutable and irreversible," said William Arnone, one of the survey's authors, "and companies need to plan for it."

The Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts that 43% of the U.S. labor force will become eligible to retire between 2004 and 2012.

The skills and institutional knowledge lost when older workers retire won't easily be replaced, Arnone said. Management shortages already are appearing in some sectors that have experienced a number of early retirements, including utilities and among hospital nursing staffs, he added.

"More enlightened employers are going to get ahead of the curve," Arnone said, and companies able to differentiate themselves as "older worker-friendly" will be poised to reap dividends. Those that don't will face the prospect of "serious financial and productivity issues" in the future as managers scramble to plug staffing holes when experienced employees retire, he said.

Of the human resource managers Ernst & Young surveyed, 43% said they needed to do more to train and develop their managers. A lack of succession planning will hit middle management particularly hard, according to the report.

Arnone and his colleagues urge companies to identify managers eligible to retire in coming years, decide who should replace them and begin training those individuals.

Work-obsessed baby boomers have complicated the transition planning, observed Peter Rose, a partner with marketing research firm Yankelovich Inc. in Los Angeles.

Because the post-war generation "has defined work as a way to be a winner in the game of life," he said, boomers have been hesitant to hand over the reins, forcing many organizations to keep younger workers on the sidelines.

He thinks firms can turn the reluctance of some older workers to retire completely into an advantage, by offering valued managers part-time or flexible schedules as an incentive to stay on the job to help train their successors.

The second annual Aging Workforce Survey polled 3,300 human resources executives from Fortune 1000 companies.

Source LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-aging23oct23,1,4208013.story?ctrack=1&cset=true)

Europe & Japan is in the same situation. Competition is going to be fierce.

[busdriver007]

Quote by Professor Roy Green from the Macquarie Graduate School of Management last year stating "There is no skills shortage in this country but a short-sighted grab-for-cash mentality of the corporate elite". I don't know which company he was talking about but maybe some elderly airline executives should take note.:)

[Exit Strategy]

When will Australian airline managers face the music and publically admit that there is no shortage of Australian pilots that would be happy to work for their particular airline. There is however a shortage of ones that want to work for pathetic wages under poor conditions and put the gear up and down when they have more than enough experience as jet Captains to cope with the demands of Australian aviation.

The solution is simple. Pay a fair days pay for a fair days work and hire crew into a position matched to their experience/ability whether that be SO, FO or CAPT. That is what happens in most other lines of work. Our industry does not need an influx of foreign Pilots that wish to get a passport working for airlines in this country.

[D.O.G]

Well said "Exit Strategy".

[Gnadenburg]

The greatest deterrence to foreign pilots was the taxation.

Now it is the cost of housing in Australia.Add to this lucrative tax free packages elsewhere and a pilot shortage greater abroad.

I just can't see it. Foreign pilots attracted to Australia that is!

[Pundit]

Airlines do not exist for pilots.

They exist to make money for the shareholders. They exist to carry people (customers or guests whatever you like). They exist to ensure those executives luckly enough to have their heads in the trough make big bonuses.

Pilots (LAMEs and cabin crew) are necessary appendages.

Pilots lost their ability to influence management with the demise of the open cockpit. Manning is so far down the food chain that any bleats he may have let forth would not have been noticed by Dixon, Boghetti, Gregg, Joyce or co. It would have meant expenditure. Reduced profit. Lower bonus.

The new pilot training scheme introduced by QF is not about pilots it is about making money out of training. It doesn't have a pilot heading it up, it has an exco member, Curtis Davies).

Gents, the new world has arrived. Pilots are the bus drivers of the new century. Why because we talk talk talk talk about how bad things are. If there is a shortage now is the time to demand what we think we are worth.

Reality. We are not prepared to do that. If we pushed the point the pilot group would split in to pieces. The senior pilots in QF are not prepared to have their superannuation put in danger and why should they.

Because of this the new world is upon us.

Seniority is dead.
EBA for direct entry at you current rank / experience is the solution. JQ do that now. Why not the mainline.

[Wings Of Fury]

And Airlines will not exist without pilots, but i guess history has shown that they do because we don't stick together when the time comes to, airlines always find a way,
And bus drivers don't do years of expensive training, and don't do years of hard yards working and building experience to get an airline job, so i guess cadets could almost be called bus drivers with more training with better equipment and scenery.

[blueloo]

Wings of Fury:
so i guess cadets could


Whats the bloke of the 12th man say? Tony Greig - A Grudge (Garage) is a place to Park your car!




So many people with chips on their shoulders! I wonder if the accounting firms, law firms in fact nearly all big business and major professions have so much pent up animosity towards their cadets.

[Pundit]

I agree with you WoF

If there was a glut of pilots, airlines act - redundancy, furlough - and we talk about how hopeless management is.

When there is a shortage of pilots we don't act and we talk how hopeless management is.

And we wonder why we are trod on!!

[lambsie]

What pilot shortage???

Qantas just let a perfectly good Qantaslink F/O walk out the door to go to Cathay. They then phoned him the next day to offer him an interview for mainline.

[neville_nobody]

Amazing what leverage does!! Seems like the fastest way to get into QF is to tell them you have an offer with Cathay!!

[WynSock]

That happened to a mate of mine too. Got the call from CX, less than a week went by then a call from QF. Turned them down.

Just a coincidence I guess.