Max FDP and Discretion

[Tartan Giant]

I know several UK registered airlines fly to Tel Aviv and back as part of a normal day for the two pilots.
If such a flight is delayed for FOUR hours and the crew is contacted at home, apparently the new Max FDP should be the more limiting of the time bands, when comparing the new report time and the original, to find the MFDP.
My question is this, if the new report time limits the FDP to say 12hrs and 15 minutes and the airlines original published schedule excedes this, can the flight legally operate, ex-base, knowing that Commanders Discretion must be exercised from the word 'go' ?
Put even simpler, can you operate ex-base knowing discretion must be used ?

[Daifly]

No, Ops cannot plan for a crew to use their discretion. We have to have you signed off (on paper at least) after landing, not during that final sector - which can be a headache, as in your Tel Aviv example.

In some respects though, the paperwork never represents what really happens, so it's all an exercise.

[jaguar]

no unfortunately,the front end normally are quick enough to tell you this, unless it suits them, there are way around it;

Where is the FDP for ops staff??

[Jetdriver]

"Legally" Any flight MAY operate ex-base using commanders discretion. Without quoting the whole paragraph, basically given the TLV example, up to 2 hours discretion may be exercised prior to the first sector, and up to 3 hours prior to the return (last) sector, except in cases of emergency.

Obviously Commanders discretion is never a "must be excercised" scenario but by its very title discretionary. It is not up to ops to decide, and could NEVER be insisted upon.

Jaguar "Where is the FDP for ops staff??"
Whilst I have some sympathy, where exactly is the Flying Duty ??

[capt pinhead]

With reference to the comment made by Jetdriver. If you have a flt such as the TLV and the max FDP is only 12hrs 15mins and the planned flight is 12 hours 30 mins then this flight cannot be operated. You cannot plan a flight using discretion. If you have any problems with this you can contact the CAA they will be only to happy to advise you and you will not have to give your name or company. Just to say it again you cannot use discretion to plan a flight if you do not have enough FDP to use. If you do then your company needs to be looked at by the CAA.

[Tartan Giant]

JetDriver.
Thank you the reply. However, I have great difficulty taking on board the idea that you can start the TLV day with 2 hrs Cdr Disc and then for the return up to another 3 hrs.
Are you saying a TLV has 5hrs "slack" built in for Commanders Discretion ? I hope not !
As Captain Pinhead (why a "cabin boy" should use such a derogatory username is open for question too ! )suggests, a 12.15 FDP is a MAXIMUM that is allowed ex-base (assuming he used the 0600 to 0759 local time band)and I would not say he would be wrong to refuse to operate if a Commander said, "we are using 2 hours CD here and I intend to operate the return sector too" !
JetDriver, would you be so kind and quote the "whole paragraph".

[Daifly]

Jetdriver - in the nicest possible way, I take exception to your saying where is the FDP for Ops staff - sure we don't do the flying, but when I work (including being on call - in my house next to the constantly ringing phone (We're a charter outfit))- a 140 hour week I do get a little concerned at the continued complaints I receive from the crews about the early starts, night stops etc etc. There we are, got that off my chest - not looking for some long winded argument!

[Daifly]

And then moving on....
From the Ops Manual. "An extension of 3 hours is the maximum permitted, except in cases of emergency. A Commander may exercise his discretion to extend an FDP involving 2 or more sectors up to a maximum of 2 hours prior to the first and subsequent sectors but this may be up to 3 hours prior to the start of a single sector flight, or immediately prior to the last sector on a multi-sector flight."

[fireflybob]

How about this for another arguement then?
The commander could say to Ops that he is happy to depart on the said schedule but has to warn them that as he approaches the max FDP, he may not be able to exercise his discretion and that thay should therefore be prepared for a landing en-route on the return sector! Usually somewhere over Germany. I well remember the night TLVs with a certain charter airline where this problem was encountered.
One captain elected not to go into discretion and landed at Cologne on the way back! The rescue mission with an aircraft chartered to fly out a standby crew was, needless to say, somewhat expensive! I am not saying that I necessarily agree with these tactics but it certainly made the company sit up and think about it!
Secondly, with respect to the previous comments about pilots whingeing about the length of duty days, etc. I am reminded about the same company when the ground engineers complained at a staff meeting that if the pilots got pay increments why shouldn't they also.
The MD replied, quite simply, that if they wanted pilots pay and conditions then they should become pilots!
I recognise that crewing managers and officers have a tough job to do but if they are having to work excessive hours with a lack of resources then they should get themselves into a good union and get it sorted out but please don't get at the pilots when they complain about excessive FDPs etc!
Apart from anything else pilots have a duty of care towards their passengers and I would remind everyone that many years ago it took a major accident to get any form of Flight Time Limitations whatsoever!

------------------

[jaguar]

well said daifly, and who needs unions theyy cause enough aggro

[Daifly]

Unions are great when they work - agreed.

It's not so much getting at the pilots - it's more a give and take bit really - I appreciate entirely what it's like for the Pilots out there - away from home a lot, not really knowing where and when you will be somewhere. Leading on from this, I'm not after pay increments in the slightest - but when I work, genuinely, more hours than any of the pilots, who have restrictions, then I would like to be earning more than our most junior effoh... Plus, good story about Cologne, but which poor bugger had to sort out the mess? Wasn't the Captain in his hotel room now was it...! (Arguments aplenty I'm sure! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif)) FDP's are essential - we're all agreed on that but if I f*ck up on my 20 hour shift with routings and subsequent fuel loads - and it's not unknown for any pilot to trust someone else's judgement, who's going to get the blame - in the press, sure, P1. In the industry? Those b*stards in Ops...

Finally, I'm not complaining about crews refusing to go into discretion - if Ops plan for that to be used then they're being fools to themselves, we NEVER plan to use FDP - sure it might be close to the Max. All. but never goes over. Though the pilots never agree! Argumentative bunch, aren't you!

[This message has been edited by Daifly (edited 26 August 1999).]

[Jetdriver]

Capt Pinhead,

The standard FDP for a TLV (2 sector day) is about 11.5 hrs (1hr rep + 4.5 hrs out + 1 hr turnaround + 5.0 hrs in. FDP ends on blocks though "duty" but not FDP usually extends beyond).

The flight cannot be planned to operate beyond the FDP limits. For example if the trip was scheduled to depart at 22:30 local this schedule would be impossible, and 2 crews would be required.

Tarten G. The whole paragraph reads.." An aircraft commander may,at HIS discretion, and after taking note of the circumstances of other members of his crew,extend the FDP beyond the standard Maximum FDP permitted, provided he is satisfied that the flight can be made safely. The extension shall be calculated according to what actually happens, not on what was planned to happen. An extension of 3 hours is the maximum permitted, except in cases of emergency. A commander is authorized to exercise his discretion in the following circumstances and up to the limits set. In an FDP involving 2 or more sectors, up to a maximum of 2 hours discretion may be exercised prior to the first and subsequent sectors, but this may be up to 3 hours prior to the start of a single sector flight, or immediately prior to the last sector of a multi sector flight....(emphasis added)

Hope this clears up what I was saying.

Ops cannot insist that a captain uses discretion to complete a schedule. Absolutely not. However it is quite permissable for the Captain to elect to use discretion for such a purpose. From the preceeding paragraph it follows that if a flight was always impossible to roster within the confines of FDP limits then it cannot be operated in that manner. However if circumstances dictate that unforeseen delays etc result in this scenario then the Captain and he alone MAY elect to use discretion to complete the programme.

Hope this clears up any confusion. But this is PPRuNe and that would be like saying I hope I get every weekend off for the next year.

Daifly, Sorry you took exception but you answered the point in the first sentence " sure we dont do the flying but..". As I said I have sympathy with what you say. I have willed that my epitaph reads " Sorry to ring you on your day off but...". I know we all have a job to do and I respect that all of us work hard to achieve what is demanded of us. We all get fed up with it from time to time.

[Tartan Giant]

JetDriver
Thanks for your reply - we are now both on the same frequency !
The CD is 3 hours MAX in any circumstances, and 2 hours before before you leave home "base"....

Cheers

[opsbod]

Going back to the original question, and possibly of relevance:

"When a crew member is informed of a delay to the reporting time due to a changed schedule, before leaving the place of rest, the FDP shall be calculated as follows:

When the delay is less than 4 hours, the maximum FDP allowed shall be based on the original report time and the FDP shall start at the actual report time.

When the delay is 4 hours or more, the maximum FDP shall be based on the more limiting time band of the planned and actual report time and the FDP starts 4 hours after the original report time"

Yes, I've been forced to swallow a whole CAP371. Then there is always the clever crewing trick of delaying the crew only 3 hours and 55 minutes if this works to an advantage.


[This message has been edited by opsbod (edited 28 August 1999).]

[alcoflyer]

one airline does lgw/ssh with 'heavy' flight deck and the same cabin to get round these problems as the good old cabin staff have the extra hour (even though they check in 30 minutes prior, which is not taken into account for fdp purposes - although they do get paid for it!)

[opsbod]

Alcoflyer.

Bit concerned regarding your comments about cabin crew FDP. By definition Flying Duty Period (FDP):

"Any time during which a person operates in an aircraft as a member of its crew. It (FDP) starts when a crew member is required by an operator to report for a flight, and finishes at on-chocks or engines off, or rotors stopped on the final sector."

Sorry, but either you've been misled by your colleagues at LGW, or their company is being naughty.

[alcoflyer]

havnt explained myself very well - sorry

eg c/a ck in 1500 f/d 1530

c/c take their start of fdp from f-d report (giving c/c 30 mins longer in addition to the hour longer than f/d anyway)
also, for morning starts, if by taking start of fdp from f/d reprt time, this may (eg 0559/0600 rollover) give a longer period available for work
havnt got cap371 in front of me but for instance if an 0530 report allows 10 hours for two sectors and an 0600 allows 11 hours, this gives an extra one hour, knock off the half hour anyway (as above)so by taking your report time the to be the same as f/d, you an extra 1½ hours duty time at the stroke of a pen is

[opsbod]

Interesting, but I refer the gentleman to
the answer I gave some moments ago.