Pilots Lisence vs. Diploma vs. Degree

[JamesBiggles]

I have always wondered why a commercial license/instructors rating/airline transport license is not granted the same recognition as tertiary qualifications such as degrees and diplomas.

Whenever you fill out any formal application for finance etc, if you are a professional pilot, your highest level of education would be the last standard you passed in high school eg Matric or Std 9.

This is of course a huge insult to me as a professional pilot because I believe I worked very hard to achieve my pilot qualification (as an aside I also have an undergraduate degree and am able to compare work loads etc and by the time you have your ATP I reckon you will have put some serious studying hours in, equaling or nearly equaling a 3-year degree, at the very least a 2-year technical diploma with practical work experience giving you your third year) and I believe my qualification should be recognised.

Is this phenomenon specific to South Africa or is it a global issue?:ugh:

[Gyro Nut]

The reason might be because pilots can't spell. "Licence" isn't spelt "lisence"! How many folk out there know the difference between "licence" and "license"?

Generally, pilots' spelling is atrocious, and its sometimes embarrassing. I try to use a dictionary if I'm not sure of a spelling when posting (which is quite often!).


Fluffyfan, no offense, but I think you should check out the difference between "there", and "their".

Someone told me the other day that the SA Education Department have recognised a SA ATP licence the equivalent of a Honours Degree. JB, I do agree with that you are saying.

[cavortingcheetah]

hmm:

It is global but it is not an issue.
Just fill in any form that requires your higher educational qualifications thus:

BA/BSc. (ATPL/Aviation.)

In my case I have always continued in this vein:

BA/BSc equiv. (ATPL/Aviation.) UK.USA.RSA. Botswana)
or, if you feel suitably grandiose, make it an MA/MSc!

Never had a query on it and would defend my right to do so so quite vigorously.

Most of the people who read those forms are unable to interpolate beyond a two syllable word anyway.:D

[allovertheplace]

the rane in spaine is manely on the pleine!!!!!

[B200Drvr]

Gyro Nut, would it not be a better idea to use spell check than pull out a dictionary, who uses those things these days???:ugh:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

...Those of us who spell flavour with a "U"...:E

[madherb]

As they say in the classics "six munch ago I coerren even spel enjineer now I are wun!"

No offense ment. Their you go agian.

By the bye, how does one use a dictionarey if you can't spell anyway??

Bye. Off to buy the latest from Mr. Oxford, that erudite man of letters. French, you know. :E

[flyhardmo]

Generally, pilots' spelling is atrocious, and its sometimes embarrassing.

Thats why everything is abbreviated ATC, IFR, RWY, VOR.... There is usually a list of abbreviation at the beginning of AIP's or Jepp Charts. :cool:

[SAASFO]

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

[LongJohnThomas]

SAASFO,
Whoever you are? You're a genius!!!!
I was just thinking of that. Nice one!!:ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Nah!


Pilots are just a bunch of glorified bus drivers in any case....:E

[Yokeman]

Hey JB,

Why not join the mass exidus from your beluvit cuntree and move to ostralia.

Seems their is a digree offered by Australian International Aviation Training Agency.

Cheque out there websight : http://www.australianaviationtraining.com/aviation_degrees.htm

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Pilots parading as glorified bus drivers? Surely that can hardly be the case! A gross example of wishful social climbing, worthy of the most un-noteworthy element of urban insignificance.
Any casual examination of pilots' external appearance at South African airfields will reveal that Putco bus drivers look smarter. Intellectually they probably are as well!:p

[Itswindyout]

Mr W, the font of all knowledge quotes:

"A license (also spelled licence) is the document demonstrating that permission. ... Obtaining a licence is required of a number of occupations and "blah blah blah...


So their we are there then.

windy

[JamesBiggles]

Thanks Yokeman, but I reckon there will be too much competition for jobs in Oz what with all the SAA guys going over there...their....they're....thar...had you going Gyro Nut, actually do know the correct spelling to this one; there now (just kidding guys, really do feel for you at SAA, hope you all come right with the powers that be and that you all get back the job security you have worked hard to achieve and deserve IMHO)

The thread was started not so much because I yearn for recognition of what I have achieved, I am comfortable with myself, but rather, if the economy as a whole does not recognise professional flight crew as such ie professionals with professional qualifications, then is it any wonder we get shafted when it comes to salaries etc?

Correct me if I am wrong here, but ours is one of the few professions which carries a potential jail sentence if we are negligent in the fulfilment of our duties. That requires the highest possible standards from all of us at all times.

[south coast]

The reason an ATPL is not recognised as the equal of a degree is because it is no where near the level or close to the amount of work needed to achieve a degree.

6 months studying parrot fashion to pass a set of multiple guess type questions, and you think that equals 3 or 4 years worth of work with essays and dissertations?

Get real people, it is considered as a professional position only because in the old days only wealthy people, who had normally been educated to a 'professional' standard could afford to undertake the training.

Doctors who have a practical job with theory at its base, similar to pilots I think, study for 7 years and call themselves professionals, not sure our training practically or academically really compares to theirs.

[Shrike200]

What South Coast said.
While it would be nice to be recognised as having a higher qualification by financial intitutions etc, comparing a CPL to a degree, and an ATP to something like a Masters, is only valid when it comes to (sometimes) the amount of time it takes. A relative recently obtained a Masters in Project Management. It was only part time, and took two years. The amount of work involved made studying for Comm/ATP look absolutely trivial. I know in flying that building the hours takes time, but it's hardly comparable to putting in the research for a thesis (for example), which at that level is generally a hell of a lot of work.

I suppose we're like artisans/tradesmen. Something like that.

[Gerund]

I agree with south coast (hope all's well with you! long time no see)

I have a BSc which I spent three hard years studying for, culminating in numerous very tough three hour written examinations to test not only knowledge but ability to reason and show original thought.

I also have a South African ATPL which took eight weeks of study to pass eight very straightforward Comm exams, followed later by six weeks of very part time study to pass seven even more straightforward ATP exams. The fact that only six weeks were required for the ATP was that Met only took a long evening.

14 weeks equivalent to a degree? Maybe in the new South Africa; nowhere else.

[Sgt.Peppeh]

Pilots parading as glorified bus drivers? Surgeons parading as butchers....

Postmen parading as:

Postman Pat, postman Pat,Postman Pat and his black & white cat...early in the morning.....:hmm:

[6853]

So what's the issue guys. I have been putting down matric as highest education qualification and ATPL as other qualifications for the last 26 years and never had a problem or been turned down for anything I might have applied for. Be proud of your "meagre" ATPL or SAAF wings, not everyone can achieve those accomplishments either. A fair number of my colleagues at school that went off and got various degrees have not exactly ended up as success stories or as well off as myself, but yes they can all fill in bank applications and whatever else with a degree in the right box.

[south coast]

Flyer

The time it takes to get a 'heavy' on ones ATPL is just time doing the job. It is not like it is studying or carrying out research and writing dissertations.

We all enjoy the job we do, but we should accept it for what it is, an Airline Transport Pilots Licence, not a BA or MBA or BSc or Phd, its just an ATPL.

[Schmieglie]

I have been reading these posts, as well as various others on similar subjects. There seems to be a general concern among flightcrew regarding this topic. They generally feel that they are not recognized as professional, neither does their salaries increase as a professional person's would. The solution to this is not as obvious as one might think, since one needs to look at both sides of the coin (from both the crew and the industry side). I feel I am qualified since I have both professional and pilot qualifications Here are a few points to ponder:

* Pilots feel they should be regarded as professionals. This is true, since they
are expected to work professionally at all times.

* Pilots feel their qualifications should be regarded as a degree. This is not
necessarily true. Even though it is hard work to become a pilot. The
academic standard and sheer workload is not nearly as much as a four
year degree in Engineering for example. We pilots are lucky that all the
questions are multichoice.

* Pilots do carry the tremendous responsibility of people's lives when they
are flying. Even though some professions like engineers may have a legal
appointment, they rarely die with their subordinates (pax) if something
goes wrong.

* The industry expects pilots to pay for their own ratings even after they
gained their licenses. I do not agree with this, since the pilot has already
spent a fortune on just getting qualified to get a low time job. Expecting
pilots to pay to work at a company is just wrong. If I apply for a job and
they tell me I need to pay money to work there, I will show them the
bird.

From the industry side, the following points are valid:

* We pilots like the attention that comes with the job. We also like to be the best. As such, we will always strive to fly the newest and best aircraft. In order to do this, the pilots will move on as soon as they have enough experience. The industry knows this, that is why they will keep on regarding pilots as a temporary expense. As such, the salaries will be as low as possible. They are also no willing to invest a large amount of money into someone who will only be at the company for a year or two.

* In another type of professional job, the salary normally grows because
the person has more experience that can be utilized in other positions. In
other words, the longer you work, the more valuable you are to the
company. You can be a manager and bring in more value to the company
than when you were first employed. When you are first employed as a
pilot, you fly the aircraft, as you gain experience, you become better,
but you still only fly the aircraft. You feel that you deserve a raise based
on your hours, but the company feels that you are still doing the same
job that you did when you started there. You cannot be employed in
another position, and you will not be happy there, because you want to
fly. You never went to flight school because you want to manage a
charter company one day.

I hope these few thoughts provide some insight into a much debated topic.

Regards and happy landings

Schmieglie

[countingteeth]

If my memory servers me correctly, an ATPL with a certain amount of command hours is classified as a "RVQ-13" by the state. RVQ13 is an equivalency rating of matric plus 3 years formal education, and is used by the government to compare tertiary education between Varsities, Technicons on Industry specific certifications. A degree is RVQ13, as is a Tech diploma, certain on the job training programs, and lots of IT international certifications.

So, at least in the Govenments eyes, an Airline Capt has a degree equivalent education ;)

[nugpot]

I have always wondered why a commercial license/instructors rating/airline transport license is not granted the same recognition as tertiary qualifications such as degrees and diplomas.

Because anyone with a few working brain cells can get a Comm, ATP or IR. The same unfortunately cannot be said for most degrees.

as an aside I also have an undergraduate degree and am able to compare work loads etc and by the time you have your ATP I reckon you will have put some serious studying hours in, equaling or nearly equaling a 3-year degree

I don't know what you studied mate, but I barely put in the same hours for ALL the ATP subjects that I spent on one subject before exams at varsity.

I don't know why some pilots want to compare us with graduates and other professionals. We are professional pilots and should be proud of that fact alone. The same goes for pay. We are worth what we are worth. Sometimes pilots are scarce and we are worth a lot. Other times, work is scarce and we are worth less. It doesn't matter what doctors, lawyers and engineers earn. They can't fly and we can't do their jobs.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

BA Sociology





...'Nuff said...

[flyinghigh66]

Say Engineering to a English layman and they think of the person who services your boiler or fixes your car. :(

Just because you have a degree it doesn't mean you are recognised for it. A Proffessional Engineer with many years services that is liable for large projects and runs the risk of jail in a foreign country if he screws up is still regarded as an engineer, which as I said in many peoples eyes is someone who turns a spanner...

At least a pilot in many peoples eyes is still clearly a pilot and despite what some may think this is highly respected by the masses.:D

Be proud to say that you are a highly qualified pilot as most people out of the cockpit think CPL, ATPL.... are just letters and may as well be MEng or Phd.

Oh and yes I am an engineer :ugh:and a pilot :cool:.

[nugpot]

Oh and yes I am an engineer and a pilot

How long did you spend servicing boilers then?

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

It's an unfortunate but probably true fact that these days a South African university qualification, or a pilot's licence for that matter, are indicative of nothing more than an ability to achieve nothing very much whilst simply awaiting the foregone results of reflective advantage. As such, one might just as well mail order the piece of parchment from Harare with Ebagum's signature on the flapping seal for all the international credence that such variations on the theme of Bronco Lane might afford.:p

[ryanbarker747]

diploma all the way:)

[kingpost]

The reason it's not recognised is because you can obtain the qualification without finishing school, maybe you should try doing a degree to compare the two.

At best it should be the same as a tech diploma, maybe that's too generous.

[james ozzie]

Under one defintion, a professional is one who is paid to work, as opposed to an amateur who "does it" for fun - perhaps the best meaning in the aviation context.
.
The word has another meaning that refers to the responsibility for the professionals advice and decisions. A doctor, laywer, accountant and consulting engineer are all required to carry professional indemnity insurance. Here in Australia, it is typically $10m cover per claim. A broker told me that a professional consulting engineer who has more than two PI claims against him/her is unlikley to be able to get further cover - bye bye career!
.
This is in contrast to other occupations claiming to be professional, such as real eatate agents, who carry very little responsibility for their advice. Unfortunately, people such as these have corrupted the meaning of the word to the point that anyone who wears a tie & sits in front of a computer now call themselves "professional"

[fluffyfan]

Gyro

Someone told me the other day that the SA Education Department have recognised a SA ATP licence the equivalent of a Honours Degree. JB, I do agree with that you are saying.

although I do thank you for correcting my spelling, at least I dont speak fluent Bulls:mad:it

Any Moron can get an ATP....it just takes time and effort, not everyone can get a degree, that takes a lot more time and a lot more effort, and a few years off your life

[Flying Touareg]

i want to digress a little. which is more expensive?Obtaining a degree and or an ATPL license?:ugh:

[nugpot]

You can't work full time while getting a degree, so taking loss of earnings into account, the degree is more expensive.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

One of the foundation stones of the Open University is that professional men and women should be able to work while furthering their education. The university bestows both BAs and MAs upon completion of the relevant and internationally recognised courses. It just takes a little longer than the full tilt, residential, beer swilling, fornicating variety. But then the concept is directed at mature men and women.:ouch:

[Flyer14]

Agree, depending on the degree. A dedicated person can complete a degree part time whilst working. Takes a little longer, though.

[nugpot]

A dedicated person can complete a degree part time whilst working.

Most people here want there ATP's to be equal to a professional degree like engineering, medicine, etc. I want to see you do those part-time.......................

You can do Law part-time, but at some stage you will have to do the article phase and/or write the bench exams, and believe me, those cannot be compared to ATP subjects.

[Flyer14]

That's why I said depending on the degree. I agree fully that an ATPL is not equivalent to an engineering or a medical degree and not all degrees can be done part-time.

[countingteeth]

This years UCT rates are about R24,000 tuition fees for the year. Average that out over 4 years, and you are looking at about R100,000 for the degree. If you stay in res, add another R25,000 per year, so another R100,000. All in all, you are looking at walking out of varsity having spent about R200,000 to sit in the classes, write the exams, eat their food, and sleep in their beds. ;)

In addition to this, most natural sciences related careers require some sort of industry training/certification, so add to this figure at least two years worth of on the job training at minimum wage, plus expensive international certification exams. Companies dont do this training for free, so most grads are expected to sign training bonds of at least two years post qualification. So, in summary, it takes 8 - 10 years before you start earning decent money and you certifications are paid for. If you have taken a student loan to pay for this, starting varsity at 18 means that most succesful sciences grads will only be debt free and beginning to make money round about their 30th birthday. This is round about the time the whole cycle starts again because to get anywhere in engineering you need a masters of something degree (be it a MBA or MSc)...

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Oh well!
In the UK from start up to frozen ATPL apparently costs about £50,000. That's roughly SAR750,000 and that's without eating or sleeping.
In financial terms then, an ATPL must be approaching a doctorate.:eek:

[propdrop]

indicative of nothing more than an ability to achieve nothing very much whilst simply awaiting the foregone results of reflective advantage. As such, one might just as well mail order the piece of parchment from Harare with Ebagum's signature on the flapping seal for all the international credence that such variations on the theme of Bronco Lane might afford.:p

Nice...the uneducated masses takes the cake again. you are either in the dark or the smartest person i have ever heard of:confused:. Both my degree and cpl/instuctors took some serious studying. Although, the degree much more so...

Interesting statistic: At UP in 2001, ±600 people enrolled for B.comm Accounting (future CA's intent on taking over the world). In 2002 110 finished their second year. Call that what you want, but i would like to know what the ratio is of ppl pilots starting studying their comm and then never completing it. When you get to tersiary study level, many many people just can't hack it, is this true for CPL / ATPL exams as well? I am not talking re-writes, I am talking about giving it up, changing you goal. I am not being sarcastic, i would really like to know.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
Whilst a great admirer of the discoveries of that well known Iraqi Muslim, Abu Ali-Hasan Ibn al-Haitham, one is totally and absolutely not in the dark. That would be a very bad place to be altogether.:cool:

[Ghoul]

There are future prospects that a CPL will become a Diploma and an ATPL a degree in Bav (Batchelors in aviation). I dont want to divulge too much info...but there has been meetings regarding Sakwa accreditation for Pilots licences.

[south coast]

Indeed, in the UK it has already happened.

As of the 1st of January 2008, a ATPL holder may apply for degree status from our CAA.

It will be the equivalent of a 2:1.

[Champagne Lover]

I believe that not all degrees are similar in "difficulty", so what are you comparing? BSc to licence, or BA with bible study and Sociology to the ATP?
I think the only people to compare are those who have both, and different degrees too as mentioned.
But once again, this is ANOTHER "My willy is bigger than yours" post.:D

[nugpot]

There are future prospects that a CPL will become a Diploma and an ATPL a degree in Bav (Batchelors in aviation). I dont want to divulge too much info...but there has been meetings regarding Sakwa accreditation for Pilots licences.

Why go to all the trouble? Will it make you a better pilot to write Bav behind your name?

Anybody with a degree will know that getting Comm or ATP subjects is probably equal to one semester at varsity.

[Schmieglie]

That is only if they can fix all their troubles with the audit results.....

[Ghoul]

I'm currently busy with my 1st year in tertiary studies,Bsc, and having a CPL aswell...i would have to say that one cannot compare the two..they are uniquely challenging in their own way...each having its own degree of difficulty, as far as workload goes..I'd say CPL is rougly equivalent to 1yr tertiary...but let me not generalise too much...as there are many other fields where the workload is much higher...

My personal opinion is that a CPL+ATPL deserves more recognition than merely a license,but not quite to the level of a degree... Maybe if they combine aviation safety or some type of management aspect into it then yes...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Happydays]

How can you compare the 2 ? A ATPL is not just exams..its 5 years experience with so much knowledge you have to build up during the 5 years to get somewhere. Its the best job in the world, flying at high mach numbers and 40 000 ft. What a office, and we getting payed to do it ! Awsome !!!!

[Woof etc]

Just like any other job? The degree is only the start in any career.....

The difference between most degrees and a com licence is that the com is vocational (ie. you are trained to perform specific tasks.), whereas most degrees require you to apply the knowledge gained in creative ways to arrive at new results.

You don't want a pilot to come up with creative new ways of flying the aeroplane - he/should be trained to follow well thought out SOPs with as little deviation as possible.

Having both the degree and the ATPL I would say you cannot compare the two. The degree was a lot more mentally challenging (engineering), although that does not take anything away from the amount of work needed to complete the ATPL and subsequent type ratings etc.

[DIVESAILFLY]

Now if we could only get these degree bearing professionals to also be subjected to a test and medical twice a year to ensure they are still capable of doing their jobs?

As for degree attrition rates: During the good old SAAF selection board and pupes course the attrition rate was considerably larger than that mentioned in the earlier post. In fact just the selection board had about an 11% pass rate.

:hmm:

[nugpot]

Now if we could only get these degree bearing professionals to also be subjected to a test and medical twice a year to ensure they are still capable of doing their jobs?

Professionals sink or swim by their last job. Small mistakes will cost your client money and large mistakes will get you disbarred or de-registered.

In aviation, small mistakes can normally be recovered and hidden and large mistakes might get you fired. You really have to stuff up (as in illegal stuff) to lose your license.

Face it. Pilots are blue collar workers and if they want a degree, they can always go to varsity and get one. Being Africa, you might even be able to buy one.

I take it the next suggestion on this forum will be that all pilots with CPL should get SAAF silver wings and those with ATP should get SAAF gold wings........................

[Aviator609]

Large mistakes in aviation get you killed... and you can lose or have your license suspended for much "smaller mistakes" as suggested:bored:

[nugpot]

Large mistakes in aviation get you killed

I would agree if you added the word "Some". See A340 at CPT thread. Nobody killed.

Having worked as a professional engineer and these days as an airline pilot, I think I am suitably qualified to comment.

I'm not saying that pilots are better or worse than graduate professionals. I am only saying that a Comm or ATP is not remotely the same as a B.Eng. or B.Sc(Eng) and if you want a degree, I suggest that the syllabus changes to a graduate level. Won't be many ATP's around.............

[rockpecker]

Call any qualification just what you like. What does it matter? It is what is required to do the job. Whether ATPL to fly the airplane, or MBChB MMed FCS to wield the knife upon diseased flesh, or BA LLB to technically get a guilty bastard off the hook, each field to its own. ATPL is just as much a hard worked-for qualification than any bum-and-elbow bruising university degree. The margin for error and digress from exacting standard procedure is just far less forgiving than for the philosophical ramblings that may swing a juror's opinion in a courtroom. In my book, ATPL is way up there with the other higher qualifications.
By the way, "licence" is a noun, "license" is a verb. Simple.:8

[dogcharlietree]

Found this recently on a US Flight School website;
"The ATP is the academic equivalent of a PhD/Doctorate. It is the highest pilot certificate possible to obtain, and requires the most stringent and refined professional attitudes and responsibilities, skills, and further development through your own research and review of the aviation industry."

[4runner]

An ATP is NOT like a PhD. Just because it is the highest qualification, doesn't mean it is the equivalent. The advert is just that, an advert. Most US airlines require a bachelors degree. More than half of all aircraft registered in the word are in the US. More than half of all professional pilots have university degrees. Consider this a de facto requirement.
I hear people rationalize not having a degree all the time. Folks with degrees generally do not regret getting them. A degree is more than a piece of paper. It teaches one necessary skills to prosper, social skills, critical thinking, time management, hustle skills and a host of other non quantifiable assets. Many universities offer flying programs, or as I did, flew while earning my degree. See above for skill set earned.

[MungoP]

Whilst I agree that the European ATP has a claim to an equivalency with some degree levels the US ATP most definitely does not. When converting to an FAA ATP back in 1999 I completed my ground exams in one sitting on a computer in 40 min and achieved 87%. Little more than doing a PPL in Europe and a world away from my UK ATP sat in the 80s.
I wouldn't want to get into a pointless discussion over which system is better but responding to the original question posed I would say.. European License; Yes. FAA; No

[noflynomore]

Complete and utter nonsense to equate ATPL with a degree. It is a practical 12 month blue -collar training course, albeit a very stringent and extensive one but one restricted to knowledge of facts and demonstration of prowess.
A degree is (usually) a three year course involving by definition a thesis which requires individual and original research into producing a paper that attempts to prove or justify a proposition by application of such research and logic. An ATPL bears no resemblance to this whatsoever.
I daresay the CAA will offer you "degree status" for an ATPL these days, and if, as stated above, automatically give you a 2:1 for it regardless of your exam results I think that merely demonstrates the pathetically weak and artificial standard the degree has reached in our society ever since Labour "governments" decided everyone ought to have one regardless of ability and relabelled all the Technical Colleges and Polys "universities" and relabelled HNDs and HNCs "degrees" and handed them out like crisp packets. Clearly not all are like this, but the vast majority are.

This fetish for a degree is neither useful nor helpful and although the majority of "degree" students could no more achieve an ATPL than swim to the moon there seem to be many pilots who hanker for the "cachet" of this bauble of academia, even though it is now more akin to a christmas-cracker gee-gaw than a true accolade.

Get over it, if you've got an ATPL that is truly something to be proud of, but don't kid yourself that you've done any original research and written a paper to prove it if you haven't!