Bomber Command Memorial (Merged) [Archive]

Chugalug2

18th Oct 2007, 23:16

Quite frankly, I have never quite understood the hostility toward 'bomber' Harris, and the folks he commanded.

Quite frankly neither have I, 411A, but we both know that it exists, and in quite large measure. I tried to rationalise it in the Campaign Medal thread, but it would be inappropriate to go over that old ground again. The disgraceful way that Harris was side lined, while other service chiefs had honours poured on them for far less, was an indictment of the then government, the RAF and the army of armchair warriors who would have preferred to see a Nazi victory rather than the destruction of German cities and the means of them ramping up their war production. I agree that Lincolnshire, indeed the city of Lincoln, would make a far more fitting location for this memorial. With the BoB memorial also sited "on location", there is indeed precedent for moving outside London, which is bulging at the seams with memorials leading to a devaluation of any one of them. Perhaps Harris's statue would do better amongst his old lags than being the artistic target of every outraged weirdo with a paint pot!

orgASMic

19th Oct 2007, 08:26

Signed gladly. It was a dirty job, but somebody had to do it. Rest assured that some of us will not forget the sacrifice.

foldingwings

20th Oct 2007, 09:27

Only 225 Signatures - Saturday 20th October

Surely we can do better than that. Thanks to those who have signed already.

Foldie

jindabyne

20th Oct 2007, 09:43

Done - with huge gratitude to all those who participated.

See you on 7/12 FW

RetiredBA/BY

20th Oct 2007, 09:55

I am an ex V bomber pilot, Valiants and Victors (and Canberras) with a deep and very serious interest in the enormous sacrifice and enormous contribution to ulimate victory made by the bomber crews in WW11 . I deeply resent the fact that those aircrew were denied both a fitting memorial or a campaign medal and the lack of real recognition of AM Harris. Now retired in Australia, I am an honorary member of the Australian Pathfinder Association and I have never met a finer bunch of men, anywhere.

The lack of a suitable memorial is a gross injustice, and as well as signing the petition I pledge a sum of 500 pounds towards its construction.

Regards,

David Gladwin. (ex 3 group 207, 55 and 57 Sqns.

threeputt

21st Oct 2007, 09:57

Signed up for those who died so that we could live in freedom.

3P:ok:

S'land

21st Oct 2007, 12:49

Signed, with pleasure.

Unfortunately I do not think that it will do any good. The current PC attitudes seem to indicate that we should apologise for our history, not claim that it was something well done.

50+Ray

22nd Oct 2007, 05:12

Signed up yesterday, a cause well worth support. Sadly not optimistic about results.

Blacksheep

22nd Oct 2007, 05:45

This ex-'V' Bomber techie has signed up.

It is a shame that the only existing memorial - Lancaster PA474 (which I was proud to have helped to restore to airworthiness back in 1966) - flies under the banner of "The Battle of Britain" Memorial flight.

foldingwings

22nd Oct 2007, 19:11

Back to the Top

Foldie:ugh:

Downwind.Maddl-Land

23rd Oct 2007, 08:02

Signed, and the link posted onto another website. All honour to the fallen 55,000.

Sadly, don't think there is a hope in hell, but one must try.

Samuel

24th Oct 2007, 03:04

Which included 1,850 Kiwis; one in three of the 5,550 who served in Bomber Command.

Personally, having visited the BoB Memorial in London last year, I think that's where the Bomber Command Memorial should be also because more people would get to see it.

I've spoken to former 75 [NZ]Sqn members still alive, and frankly have never quite grasped the opposition to, first, a campaign medal, and now a memorial.

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 08:02

.. instead, possibly more appropriate in Lincs.. looking SE across the Fens?

Can you imagine, something as dramatic and as accessable as an equiv of The Angel of the North.. visible from afar?

LowNSlow

24th Oct 2007, 08:19

That's another signature on the petiotion although I doubt that my dad (Ex 158 Sqn Halifaxes) will still be around to see it built unfortunately.

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 09:05

Apologies for the thread morph, I just thought a new one titled thus might attract a stronger diversity of involvement.

Lets think about this business of building a memorial to the bomber boys. These are our aircrews that we're talking about.. we wore the same badges as them, we have all taken the same first step forward that they took. Lord Broone of Lisbon didn't, and thats possibly why we won't have a memorial to them. Its clear that if there was official support for such a memorial, it would already have been done. But it won't, because Bomber's boys are too much of a political hot potato, because everyone is too busy distracted being laid off at Xmas from MB, about to retire, too jaded or they can't be arsed. So. Bollocks to them. How often have we all had to do somethings ourselves if a job was worth doing properly?

Why doesn't Prune take it on board and get something done itself (with others if need be)? I'm pretty certain that the power of the web can be harnessed to great effect, and our chums at Goat, ARRSE and Rum etc will be pleased to help. We collectively have sufficient experience and a suitable diversity of skills to set ourselves a realistic goal, and wouldn't it be nice to have this thing put to bed while we still have some of the bombers boys around to see it?

Instead of going cap in hand to this damned government (which takes pride on heaping scorn on us), lets do it ourselves. We need money, land, someone to make it and our own time. Apart from that it'll be a doddle. This is not rocket science though, we are not putting a man in space, we are not rebuilding a Vulcan, we are not even putting on a charity event. All we want to do is have a patch where we can say thank you, and where folk can go to remember.

Lets forget all the possible negatives, lets cast all that rational bollocks for now and think about it when we have a consensus.. but in principle, who is interested in doing this? Its fair to say I think, that we will have a heartland of support from a few regional councils (being pragmatic, they want to attract folk to their areas), so a lot of the potentially hard work is done. I am sure too, that we could get sanction from the highest unelected or unnappointed levels (where its important), the publicity and meeja is a done deal, and securing the commercial revenue won't be too hard either.

But why bother offering soothing platitudes and venting our spleens at the injustice of it all, if we give up at the first hurdle? Thats what they'll expect us to do, especially now that I've posted this.

Thoughts? Please add them all to the pot.

Think about it. They're our boys.

forget

24th Oct 2007, 09:14

Might just work. You'd need the land (in perpetuity) and the correct location, Lincolnshire. How about the 'Brothers Lancaster' at
http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/Untitled-1-7.jpg

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 09:23

That would seem a dead cert in securing the patch at least.. but what about profile and accessability though, or how important is 'profile' to the cause?

stiknruda

24th Oct 2007, 10:03

I readily understand your reasoning behind Lincolnshire, forget, but I would rather see the memorial right outside 10 Downing Street, so that those smug, supercilious bastards would have to see it every time they entered and exited.

It might just remind them of the current toll in human lives that the current wars are causing.

However I doubt it.

snapper41

24th Oct 2007, 10:03

Whilst I accept that Lincolnshire is the spiritual home of Bomber Command, there are other locations, such as High Wycombe (HQ Bomber Command), Yorkshire (don't forget the Halifax sqns) and Cambridgeshire (Pathfinders) which might get upset. My suggestion would be the National Memorial site:

http://www.nationalmemorialarboretum.org/

Not only would this be 'neutral' ground, it would ensure that a Bomber Command memorial would be seen by more people.

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 10:15

Wader2

24th Oct 2007, 10:18

Hyde Park Corner?

I don't know the background to what is going on there but the whole of that area and the road down to Buckingham Palace seems to be dedicated to memorials.

There is a huge, largely unpopulated, wall on the roundabout on the exit towards Victoria, there ia a NZ memorial etc.

A Bomber Command one would not go amiss there either.

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 10:28

The one for the fighter boys, on the south coast is stunning, because it isn't where you might expect it to be. It has a meaning and a connection there. I didn't know about it at all, until I came across it by chance one day, and the immediacy of its impact stunned me. I wasn't prepared for it, it caught me cold and truth be told, the fact that I didn't expect it probably made me think that little bit more. I parked the bike up, and just sat there for an hour. Isn't that impact what we should be aiming for? I don't know.. perhaps my experience is a little too personal and not objective enough.

snapper41

24th Oct 2007, 10:29

I thought about that, but would putting it there serve any purpose other than reminding folk who are minded to remember anyway? Is one of the objectives of a memorial not to ake people think, who wouldn't otherwise do so?
Cambs is a nice idea, more people there, accesable.. potential Duxford connection.
You could apply that argument to any site, surely? People who visit memorials do so because they want to (generally). Duxford has no Bomber Command links, but the National Memorial does what it says on the tin - 'The National Memorial Arboretum is the United Kingdom's living and lasting memorial to commemorate and celebrate those who have given their lives in the service of their country'.

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 10:34

Yup, I can accept that line of thinking, and thank god, any decision wouldn't be mine anyway. There are far worthier people who are deserving of a greater say than me.

Going back to the principle though, and not wanting to focus on any one particular area at the moment, what is the general feeling? Is it something we can do, should do, or want to do?

snapper41

24th Oct 2007, 10:39

Anyone know of an MP with Bomber Command links (father, grandfather)? Wedgie-Benn is ex-RAF - may be an avenue?

forget

24th Oct 2007, 10:44

The National Memorial Arboretum does seem to be a 'catch all' which, I suppose, was the intention. :hmm:

Their web says - The memorials fall into several categories: Military, Civil Services, Police, Fire Brigade, Ambulance Service, Charities, Local organisations, Overseas organisations.

My vote, following the good thinking behind the Fighter Command Memorial and keeping it remote from others - it should be Lincolnshire. But anywhere will do!

wokkameister

24th Oct 2007, 11:08

Not a bomber man myself, but it gets my vote. What do you need?

WM

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 11:25

Have a look at this then.

http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=xt6vpv434nvvzmk353661

It'll take 30 seconds or so, its not trackable, it is totally anonymous and I don't think you need the password to do it. PM me if you do (I'm not IT savvy). It might help to get a clear idea of initial thoughts.

forget

24th Oct 2007, 11:45

Here you are AI R, all you need to know:ok:

http://www.warmemorials.org/Website/Resources/Help/Commisioning%20New%20WM%202007%2007%2027.pdf

skippedonce

24th Oct 2007, 11:51

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 11:54

Thanks forget,

Just spoken with them.

Hope that the sun is shining on the Posh today.;)

Airborne Aircrew

24th Oct 2007, 12:02

Actually, the decision as to the placement of the memorial depends, most importantly on the guarantee of the use of the land in perpetuity. Generally, that kind of guarantee is usually only easily obtained from some form of governmental entity.

I'd suggest that you leave the placement of the memorial to a bidding process where the different councils, (as A|R pointed out - they'd be happy to have a draw into their area), have to:-

Make the case for their substantial connection to Bomber Command, (thus Cornwall probably won't apply... ;)).
make the case as to where, specifically, they would place the memorial and what appropriate accessibility assets, (highways, rail etc.), are in place to make it accessible.
demonstrate existing amenities in the locality are sufficient, (or can be adapted), to manage a reasonable influx of people.
present proposals for any additional amenities that they feel are needed or appropriate that they could provide.
indicate which, (local(?)), businesses are prepared to sponsor the project to help provide for the maintenance of the memorial.Basically... send them an RFP then have a committee that looks over the proposals and grades them. Top grade wins(?)...

My two penn'th...

wokkameister

24th Oct 2007, 12:05

Yadda Yadda Yadda!

Why not put it at Duxford and raise the money ourselves? Given the aviation link, maybe Richard Branson may like to help? There are enough Journo's here to raise the profile!
I recently returned from Normandy (Grandfather went on holiday there 06/06/44) and it was nice that everything was close together. Yes, Lincolnshire was spiritual home to the Bombers, but Duxford should be there forever, and people could actually visit the museum and see why these guys deserved a memorial.
In this day and age, if you want something doing militarywise, you cannot rely on any level of government, local or central.

This, I think, is one for us. I'll help. Think of it as a leaving present.

WM

(not saying Lincolnshire won't be there forever, but, raising sea levels blah....)

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 12:22

Isn't a memorial more a spiritual thing anyway, rather than something located purely for (and don't take this the wrong way) convenience and erm, dry feet?

London would attract more people, but its connection isn't as great as the Fens of Cambs or lincs, where like it or not, thats where these boys went to work, and where many of their families still live.

PS: What job do you want?!

(This is all very Famous Five isn't it..?!)

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 12:25

Cheers AA.

I've never done anything like this before. You're asking in effect, what can you do for us, why should we come to you with this memorial.

Wader2

24th Oct 2007, 12:27

'There is a huge, largely unpopulated, wall on the roundabout on the exit towards Victoria, there ia a NZ memorial etc.'

I think you'll find that the other side of the 'wall' is in fact the Australian War Memorial.

Thanks for that. I didn't have time to explore. The side inside the circle had very few campaign and unit badges as I recall.

Opposite was a set of iron girders set at an angle which I I believe the New Zealand mameorial.

Wader2

24th Oct 2007, 12:33

The one for the fighter boys, on the south coast is stunning, because it isn't where you might expect it to be. It has a meaning and a connection there.

Know exactly what you mean. We have several in Lincolnshire. The ones at Waltham, Easy Kirkby and perhaps least obvious Metheringham all spring to mind.

As for not expecting a memorial, there is one not far from Skegness as I recall. We were driving down this country road and came to a cross roads. The car ahead crossed and then stopped. We then spotted a granite memorial with my first sqn's crest on it. There was no airfield nearby so we too stopped and followed the passengers of the other car to see what it was.

First they were u:mad:g on it as they had been tanking up in Skeg; they were much embarrased by Me, Mrs Wader and sprog Waders joining them.

Secondly the memorial was a crash site. As you say, all the more arresting for being unexpected.

snapper41

24th Oct 2007, 12:44

This 'location' argument could run and run! Re. Wokkameister's point - why not put it at Duxford; I refer you to my previous argument that Duxford has no connection with Bomber Command, plus people would have to pay to get in to see it. Sure, it's an aviation musuem, so using that logic, it could go to Hendon (it's got the Bomber Command Hall, after all), or Cosford, or etc etc etc.

As for the Lincs argument - again, I refer to my previous; don't forget Yorkshire, and, by the end of the War, 8 Gp (PFF) was the largest in Bomber Command and was based in Cambs. Plus, as Wader2 points out, Lincs seems to have plenty of memorials already.

The point about coming across a memorial unexpectedly seems odd; surely the whole point is to publicise and promote remembrance? How do you do that if you don't put it where everyone knows where it is??

Don't wish to sound negative; all points are valid. I'd be interested in helping where I can.

forget

24th Oct 2007, 12:56

Plus, as Wader2 points out, Lincs seems to have plenty of memorials already.

Can't argue with that. From 'Air Force Memorials of Licolnshire', Mike Ingham. (Still belongs there though.)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/lincs.jpg

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 12:59

I agree Snapper. Its just one facet isn't it?

I suppose that there must be much consensus within for instance, RAFA and the Legion.

snapper41

24th Oct 2007, 13:17

I suppose that there must be much consensus within for instance, RAFA and the Legion.

And, most importantly IMHO, the Bomber Command Association; where would the old boys want to site it? I see that it is their Secretary who started the petition on the Number 10 website (see the other thread on the memorial topic).

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 13:19

That Snapper, is a very good point and something that I should have looked at more closely.

snapper41

24th Oct 2007, 13:31

Oops - I was wrong; the petition wasn't started by the Bomber Command Association secretary. But I stand by my point!

Contact details are here:

http://www.rafbombercommand.com/master_the_association.html

The Adjutant

24th Oct 2007, 13:37

On another thread a chap says he spent half an hour climbing around the Duxford Lanc and wonders how on earth the crews moved around with all the kit they wore in thoise days. Well the short answer is they generally didn't, and died where they were. The Lanc was our safest bomber, but the one from which fewest aircrew escaped, while the Stirling cruised at such a low altitude that when Lanc boys were told that Stirlings were also on a raid they would cheer as they knew the Stirlings would take most of the flack.
Some 50,000 aircrew became casualties in WW2. With training casualties included that is about one in two. Yes, almost 50%, yet knowing the odds they just got on with the job. The "Pathfinder" boys were generally second tour volunteers and some who had completed 2 tours went back for a third. What guts those people had.
I have known a fair number of the old bomber boys over the years and am in awe of all of them. Lets build them the biggest grandest memorial that can be done because they have earned it.
Where do I contribute?

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 13:41

I have just had a good chat with the Secretary..

http://www.rafbombercommand.com/master_the_association.html (http://www.rafbombercommand.com/master_the_association.html)

which was very useful.

They have an executive meeting coming up very soon, and as you might imagine, this issue has been discussed at length over the years. The Association takes the view that they are ready and willing to support wholeheartadly, the right campaign, but that they do not want to push one in their own name because a) they are tired and b) they don't want to be seen to be clamouring for attention for themselves. They are firmly of the opinion too, that a national memorial for the Bomber Boys is long overdue, but as time moves ever onwards, perhaps it really is over to us now, and perhaps if we don't do something, the chance will pass us all by for good?

I have proposed with Mr Radcliffe, that before their meeting goes ahead, 'we' (whoever that is going to be) discuss the detail (if any) further and get together with him to allow him to present the plan to the committee (President: Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Michael Beetham GCB CBE DFC AFC FRAeS).

No one said its going to be easy. And it may be all a bit Famous Five, but we have to start somewhere, and here's as good a place as any.

Thoughts?

(Cheers Snapper, did a Google :ok:)

snapper41

24th Oct 2007, 13:47

Al R;

Did you ask him where they would like it to be?

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 13:52

No, it was just an initial contact, that would be more a matter for later I suppose. In the first instance, they have to be happy to work with an outside party ('us'), to accept our credentials and to get an agreement in principle.

That I imagine, would be right up there on any agenda though, and I'm sure they have definite ideas about it. What we need, are planners and thinkers and folk who think its a go-er, and who can put in a little time

Chugalug 2 makes a very good point elsewhere, and I echo his sentiment not as a political thought, but more as a mood of the nation thing that we need to tap into now.. while the time is still right.

.. this "government".. will understand the electoral cost of decent voters being appalled at such treatment of our old and/or maimed veterans and of bereaved families. My MP, a member of this "government" is clinging on by a mere 27 vote majority. My advice to her and her colleagues is to start looking out for the vulnerable who have served this country so well before it is too late.

wokkameister

24th Oct 2007, 15:11

As I said, not a bomber man. Put it where you like, just let me know what you need and when!

WM

Airborne Aircrew

24th Oct 2007, 16:40

A|R:

Think along the lines of the bidding for the Olympics, the World Cups etc.

Without the commitment of the local people and the local government apparatus one runs the risk of placing something that is intended to reside there in perpetuity in a place that 50 years down the line may utterly neglect it. When I use the word 'neglect' there I do not refer to the monument's individual maintenance but rather the infrastructure that surrounds it and 'feeds' it. You don't want the memorial to end up buried in the middle of some sh1t hole.

Those who are prepared to commit the most to a venture are usually those who will treat it with honor and pride in the future hence a bidding system or RFP is a way of determining who are interested and exactly how interested they may be.

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 18:14

Good advice AA, thanks. Your American connection reminds me of the US memorial at Duxford.

Over 25,000 airmen left Lincs on ops and never returned, almost 50% of the amount.

http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/server/show/conMemorial.20363/fromUkniwmSearch/1

If anyone is interested in being involved in any capacity, or perhaps simply to offer advice (like, '.. you're mad'), could you please PM me and perhaps we can take things further?

Cheers,

al.

ewe.lander

24th Oct 2007, 18:18

Well done Al R for rekindling interest :D
The arguments as to where a memorial should be are secondary to the need to do something for these great people while some still live. My personal vote though would be the Yorkshire Air museum at Elvington - has a rebuilt Halifax already and salutes the thousands of Allied Aircrew who died in bombers launched from the Vale of York.
I was taught to fly in a Chipmunk at Wallop by Charlie Cuthill - a 21 year old Lancaster Pilot during the War, a modest and great man, and I felt so lucky to have him teach me (though it does explain why 30 years later I still smack the Aircraft in on landing!!!!)
Count me in to help where I can....

Roland Pulfrew

24th Oct 2007, 18:21

A difficult choice. Out in bomber country might be devisive given that the main bomber bases were scattered over Lincolnshire, Cambridgeshire and Yorkshire, so which county is more deserving?

The National Memorial Arboretum is, IIRC, to commerate those who have fallen since the end of WWII. Duxford is a nice idea but, IMHO, is the wrong place for a national memorial. Surely the site should be in a location where the maximum number of people will see and visit it, not a location frequented (in the main) by aviation enthusiasts.

London now has its own Battle of Britain Memorial and, IMHO, is the "right" place for a national memorial to the efforts of the bomber boys. Perhaps a quarter scale Lancaster on the 4th plinth in Trafalgar Square, much more appropriate than some of the cr@p that Ken the Newt keeps putting up there.

I believe 101 Sqn (Blenheims, Wellingtons and Lancasters during the war) had the dubious honour of having the largest number of personnel of any sqn killed during the war - at something around 1100!!:(

ewe.lander

24th Oct 2007, 18:30

Keep it away from the London, keep it focused on where the crews were based, predominately Lincs or the Vale of York. If it should be a City its a no-brainer....... either Lincoln or 'Bettys Bar' in York where the Bomber Crews Mirror is, many British & Commonwealth crews enjoyed their last nights there.
There is little relevance to London but huge relevance to York & Lincoln.

Al R

24th Oct 2007, 18:59

There'll be arguements for and against any chosen venue I guess. The trick is to determine, from the outset, whether or not the location has to have any real significence, or whether the location is 'just' an abstract. I understand perfectly the idea to use Lincoln or York, but if we're being pragmatic, do those locations hold more in the way of an emotional attachment to the surviving boys, or (if the idea is to remember their sacrifice) should it be somewhere more visible? If that is to be the case, does the relevence of the location become more secondary? And should it?

My personal preference was initially to have it in yellerbelly country, partly because I know it better and partly because I appreciate the connection and the blokes who served, who still live there. I enjoy the impact of the Angel of the North, and in my mind's eye, I can imagine something similar. Just my personal view mind. I guess that halfway point between Cambs and Lincs would be just as good, can you imagine something say, on the A14 / A1 intersection (near Alconbury), overlooking that vast panorama.. 'eyes' straining eastwards?

The fact that Ewe remembers Charlie Cuthill so clearly and in such a fine way should be our raison d'etre.

Airborne Aircrew

24th Oct 2007, 20:59

Obviously one can't have it in more than one place.

Obviously there are arguments for several places though the consensus seems to be that Cambs, Lincs and Yorks are the most appropriate.

In fairness to all, especially those still living, I would suggest you start canvassing in southern Lincs such that those in Yorks and Cambs are equidistant...

Tempsford

24th Oct 2007, 21:01

Just signed it. Because of the men in Bomber Command and other Service Personnel, most of us never had to endure what they did. It brings it home to me when I see my sons and think that most of the members of Bomber Command were younger than them and my oldest son is only 25. Recognition of Bomber Commands contribution to the final victory and those who were involved is long overdue. We owe it to them to ensure that future generations are reminded long after we ourselves have passed on.

Temps

Chugalug2

24th Oct 2007, 21:50

Chugalug 2 makes a very good point elsewhere, and I echo his sentiment not as a political thought, but more as a mood of the nation thing that we need to tap into now.. while the time is still right.

Thank you Al R for your kind words. I detect the signs of hatchet burial, and would gladly join in. For, as being both ex light blues, if we cannot unite on such a worthy cause, then our cause would indeed be lost! Many good posts have already appeared in your thread, and many of the points made I agree with. My two penneth is that the BoB memorials in London and Capel le Ferne might well serve as worthy precedents. The latter, for those not familiar with it, is featured here:

http://www.battleofbritainmemorial.org/ (http://www.battleofbritainmemorial.org/)

I think that the two complement one another very well. The former serves for convenience and accessibility in the nation’s capital, while the latter’s site is inspired, above the white cliffs, and a corresponding memorial set in “Bomber Country” on a prominent site (a challenge given the terrain) could be equally effective. Personally I would plump for somewhere fairly close to Lincoln, but availability and local support would both be a sine qua non.
The title to my post is not meant to be provocative, but to plainly state the campaign that these memorials would commemorate, or at least Harris’s description of it. That is where they fought and where 55,700 of them died doing it. In a nutshell that is why they must be remembered, and why many think they should not. It is an issue that should not be avoided for it is at the very centre of this controversy. These men died carrying out British Government Policy, with Parliamentary and Public approval. To suggest that it was all done on the personal whim and prejudice of the CinC and thus to be disowned, is ludicrous. These memorials would be national ones, and must have the support and approval of the British Government, whose duty and obligation it should be, for without it those same poisonous myths would flourish.

Al R

25th Oct 2007, 05:34

Folding Wings - apologies, this thread merge is what I didn't want to happen or to take any attention away from your petition.

Chugalugs,

I referred to the political rational in general behind why we haven't got a memorial and the Dresden effect in particular, has to be a reason. The g'ment was happy to remember the Battle of Britain because that carried a swell of popular support.. this, less so (or so they perceive I imagine).

I was out walking last night and reflected on 'things' and what values the memorial should enshrine. The fighter boys existed on their wits, reactions, speed, and short sharp sustained bursts of aggression and fear, absolute madness and then coming back to earth (metaphorically and literally) for an uncertain period of normality, or as close as they could get to it. The bomber lads by contrast relied on higher degrees of method and logical, reasoned and detailed planning, more teamwork and the awful and certain knowledge that in 24 hours time, once again, they wouldn't be sprinting to the sky but having that awful slow and methodical build up to it. The pressure must have been like a metronome, ticking relentlessly and slowly towards departure and the images of that single file crew trudge to the access hatch rather than the sprint to the wing, exemplifies things for me.

I am well aware of my own limitations. But I do have quite a lot to do with some of these old boys; to my way of thinking, sitting at the back of a Lanc or in the depths of a Wellington is like parking your arse in a sniper hide or OP and just knuckling down to things, slowing down your mind clock and just getting on with it. The British Legion rightly so, is turning its gaze towards the young lads of today who need help. In terms of intrusion into the national psyche, I imagine that it won't be for another 35 years or so, that our minds will once again be drawn back 100 years to the sacrifices of the bomber boys. We have our window of opportunity, and we must take it now.

There will come a day when the Lancaster will no longer be able to fly, and then how do we make those who follow our tomorrows learn from the mistakes of our yesterdays if they aren't reminded of them? If the lives, dreams and hopes of 55,700 people were to be snuffed out with any sense or reason, at least lets make sure there was at least some obscure and bizarre logic to it. The first lesson I learnt when I went into business was that if you don't do something yourself, no one else will. The idea of even starting doing this scares the **** out of me for lots of reasons, but the idea of NOT doing anything scares me even more. But we now have to do it, there is no one else to turn to.. we are, I imagine, mostly of a time in life when like it or not, we are the people who are expected to get things done, and who have the greatest chance of success.

snapper41

25th Oct 2007, 07:54

The National Memorial Arboretum is, IIRC, to commerate those who have fallen since the end of WWII.:(

Not true. The National Memorial Arboretum has many memorials within it, for example the Shot at Dawn monument for WW1. You're thinking of the memorial opened a few weeks ago by HM which is for those killed since WW2, and is one such site within the National Memorial. As an aside, having a memorial within the national site overcomes the problems of a) having it looked after and b) the land in perpetuity. As I've said before, it should be down to the old boys where to site any memorial, not us.

Roland Pulfrew

25th Oct 2007, 08:06

You're thinking of the memorial opened a few weeks ago by HM which is for those killed since WW2, and is one such site within the National Memorial.

Thanks Snapper. I was indeed thinking of the new memorial, I just didn't realise that NMA was a bigger entity encompassing other memorials.

Chugalug2

25th Oct 2007, 08:41

Al R, your consideration for FW's thread is laudable but, WADR, I think the mods are right here. If this project is to succeed then those serving and ex must be 100% behind it and all pushing for the same goal. We have turned round vested positions if we cared enough, witness Ashted, and we can do so again. For what it's worth the petition calls for a London memorial, whereas your thread has concentrated more on one outside London. If, as I mentioned above, we emulate the BoB memorials, then both would be appropriate. It will all take time, effort and money. If that were all it would be a done deal. It will also mean changing hearts and minds. We can do that too, indeed it is what sets out the British military from the rest of the field. It will require a continual campaign to keep it in the public eye. Your point that this is the time is well taken. I made a similar one regarding the Campaign Medal. The external sensibilities of the Cold War, German Reunification and being 'Good Europeans' are largely behind us. It is mainly a domestic issue now, ie one of public opinion. That can be swayed if we have facts and figures to support our case, step forward the historians. The present government is uncomfortably aware of the negative image it has viz a viz the Armed Forces and would seize the opportunity to support a cause dear to their hearts, provided there wasn’t an electoral cost, step forward the lobbyists. As has been said the detail design and siteing would involve others, not least the survivors. But I find your image of a patient file of aircrew waiting to board their aircraft compelling. There is the quiet fortitude, the teamwork, the co-operation with which they went to war. Surely a fitting image for a frieze in comparison to the scramble of the BoB’s. Inspired Al R!

forget

25th Oct 2007, 08:46

Discussions on any location will be long, no doubt, but Chugalug2 makes good points for it certainly not being London. I believe the majority, on a vote, would go for Lincolnshire and it may be that the RAF’s own ‘Gateway to Bomber Country’ station could be an answer.

Swinderby; an operational training station for No. 5 Group with No. 1660 Heavy Conversion Unit using Manchesters and Lancasters. 7 miles from the A1 and 8 miles from Lincoln. http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/s80.html

Google Earth shows it to be still complete – surprisingly. Is this still the case?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/swind.jpg

Chugalug2

25th Oct 2007, 09:30

Forget, thank you for the attribution, but as you will see from my post above yours I am undeserving! My first reaction was indeed to turn our backs on the metropolis and head up north to the spiritual home of the old lags. But on reflection I am more and more drawn to the precedent of the BoB memorials, ie one sited in London for easy access and a daily reminder to many of the cost paid by the few, and one sited 'on location' beneath the skies in which they fought and died. The twists here, of course, are the cost paid by so very many and the skies beneath which they prepared to sally forth nightly on their deadly mission with such cold courage. The Capel le Ferne web site makes the point that the final memorial site is much smaller than was originally envisaged. I suspect that we shall go through a similar process. A disused bomber station, such as Swinderby, might seem an appropriate location, but equally anywhere within that area that is both prominent (difficult!) and accessible could suit. There is however, to my mind, a strong case for it being 'on location'. The eastern counties are the spiritual home of BC and should surely host this memorial.

Hugh Spencer

25th Oct 2007, 09:35

Can I just come in and congratulate you all on your commitment to seeing this memorial installed somewhere. I have no strong views on this but perhaps I am leaning towards Bomber County. As some of you know, I was a wireless operator in Lancasters in 1945, flying from Skellingthorpe, Lincolnshire. Keep up the pressure but I am beginning to feel that so many of the public don't know what sacrifices my friends made. Is it possible to get the help of some publicity organisation to oversee all of this? Cheers, Hugh.

snapper41

25th Oct 2007, 09:43

Chug & Forget

Sorry - disagree. It would be wrong to single out Lincs, Yorks or Cambs as the most 'deserving' county. Plus, disused stations tend to have their own memorials anyway. I go back to my argument for the National Memorial Arboretum; it's neutral ground, it is a focus for national remembrance, it ensures that a memorial would be looked after, and it's in the public eye. But, our opinions really don't count - those of the Old Lags do; where do they want it?

Chugalug2

25th Oct 2007, 09:54

Hello Hugh, delighted as ever to get your unique and invaluable input. You have indeed put your finger on the nub of the issue. Publicity! We have to sway public opinion and inform them of the terrible cost paid on their behalf by those who did not survive. The figures are shocking and must be known by everyone. As yet they are not. We must ensure that they are.

Hugh Spencer

25th Oct 2007, 11:09

Hi Chugalug,
What about this for the Memorial? At least it may prompt discussion. A framework of a true size four engined bomber with the seven crew members in their positions carrying out their allotted tasks. That would give a true representation of what it was like, to a limited extent.

Chugalug2

25th Oct 2007, 11:48

Sort of like the Eagle comic centre page cutaway pictures, Hugh? I can almost see the Lanc one on my bedroom wall, when I was a boy I hasten to add! Just as you describe with everyone manning their positions, and indeed showing the large and well stocked bomb bay! I'm sure that could be represented in bas relief on a frieze, or did you have something more three dimensional in mind? I suspect that it will need a huge amount of such suggestions so that the eventual artist/ designer/ landscaper etc can trawl through them and create the story or theme of a memorial. Now that we seem to be getting away from simple statues, memorial crosses, etc, and moving to walls of honour, friezes and even full scale replicas, the result can be truly impressive.
Have you seen either or both BoB memorials Hugh? Do you think that the choice of a London one and another on location, or at the National Memorial site as Snapper suggests, would be the answer, or simply go for one? My concern is that if it is not readily accessible, especially for the survivors, it will tend to languish unvisited by many except on special dates. Having said that, if there be only one, like you I would go for somewhere in 'Bomber country'.

Airborne Aircrew

25th Oct 2007, 11:52

Chugs:

I'd suggest that starting with publicity is putting the cart before the horse and would be a waste of resources. The first thing needed is a detailed plan of action, (with flexibility built in). Once that has been finalized then you would ramp up the publicity in phases because in each phase of the project you will be "aiming" the message at different constituencies. You're going to have limited resources - use them wisely... :ok:

Hugh:

Your suggestion for the memorial is probably one of the most inspirational ideas I have ever heard... I never use this word, ever, but it is truly awesome... :D :D :D :D :D

snapper41

25th Oct 2007, 12:15

I too, like Hugh's suggestion. There is a similar one for the armoured regiments outside the Old War Office Building (opposite Main Building), showing a tank crew:

http://www.commissionaportrait.com/artistsportfolio.asp?id=98

I doubt a BC memorial could run to a full-size Lanc, though!

Roland Pulfrew

25th Oct 2007, 12:48

I guess I am copying a bit when I suggest something similar to the RTR one. A lifesize bronze of a group of aircrew (7 crew on a Lanc wasn't it? Or 8 on the ABC version?) stood with leather helmets and 'chutes in hand, wearing Irvine flying jackets, trousers and boots etc

Something like this:

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3140120.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=34F6DC9BDA297B9EADFC2A73146F0542A55A1E4F32AD3138

Or this:

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Bedfordshire/images/LittleStaughtonCudlippLeonardandCrew.jpg

Preferably somewhere around Whitehall?

Chugalug2

25th Oct 2007, 14:02

I'd suggest that starting with publicity is putting the cart before the horse and would be a waste of resources.

All depends on which cart and which horse, surely AA? Like Hugh, I am very concerned about the general lack of knowledge of the Bombing Campaign, and in particular of the loss rate, second only to the U-boat crews. A whole generation has been raised to believe that this was a costly yet fruitless effort based on revenge and malice, a view shared by many of their elders. Before any memorial campaign can hope to get the political and public support required that view has to change drastically. As Al R says there is a parallel here with the present situation, where the losses sustained in carrying out the policies of the government should be acknowledged and honoured, whatever the feelings be about the policies themselves. If citizens of the USA can make that clear distinction then so should those of the UK. The publicity that Hugh and I speak of is of the bombing campaign itself and of the 55,700 who died conducting it rather than of their memorial(s). There has been more than sufficient time elapse to view the effectiveness of this campaign in the cold light of day, but for my money it was best summed up by Albert Speer, Reich Minister for War Production, with a vested interest in belittling it. “…it opened up a second front long before the invasion of Europe….every square metre of our territory became a front line.” It is my firm belief that, in general, the policy was right and given the limitations that it had, principally those of navigation and crew experience, contributed greatly to our victory by denying the enemy the resources he needed for his.

forget

25th Oct 2007, 14:10

Interesting exercise; I know it’s very early days, but this is what I came up with. Hugh, you and your mates are I/C here. Comments please. Ex Bomber myself, but a little after you. ;)

I have to tell you – the idea draws shamelessly on the international acclaim, and corrected failures, of the Vietnam Memorial Wall, DC. Coincidentally,58,000 names versus 56,000 for Bomber Command. (By the way, for it to work, it really has to be in Lincolnshire.)

-------------------------------------

In essence, the Memorial is dominated by a black granite wall of approximately 250 feet length and a height of 10 feet. Carved into this granite are the names of all Bomber Command aircrew who died during the conflict. At one end of the wall a vertical plinth is topped by an RAF eagle finished in gold leaf.

At the other end a group of seven bronze castings are positioned. These castings depict a typical, generic, bomber crew. The figures are standing around casually, dressed in detailed WWII flying suits and carrying the paraphernalia of an imminent operation. Against the wall is a bronze ladder. One of the figures is standing on the bottom rung. At the top of the ladder a rectangular hole is cut into the granite representing the entry door to a Bomber Command aircraft.The symbolism being, of course, that the crew will soon enter the wall - never to return - but their names will be there forever.

The figures are slightly larger than life size and are positioned such that visitors may walk amongst them.

The concourse in front of the wall is coarse concrete representing the runway from which they will shortly leave.

Against the wall, and to prevent it ever being in darkness, are embedded modern day taxiway edge lights directing white light onto the wall.

Details of the bronze figures may include shoulder flashes showing the Commonwealth countries from which crews came.

Work In Progress.

Roland Pulfrew

25th Oct 2007, 14:34

Work In Progress.

:D :D :D

That is work in progress? I can already picture it. Gets my vote now!!

LowNSlow

25th Oct 2007, 14:56

forget that sounds perfect. Just as a reminder of the reasons why such a memorial is required:

Total Bomber Command losses by the end of the War were as follows

Avro Lancaster 4171
Handly Page Halifax 2627
Vickers Wellington 1970
Short Stirling 891
Bristol Blenheim 745
Handly Page Hampden 743
De Havilland Mosquito 533
Armstrong Whitworth Whitley 509
Fairy Battle 217
Avro Manchester 104
Boston 71
Ventura 53
Fortress 24
Mitchell 20
Lysander* 16
Anson 12
Hudson* 8
Liberator 6
Hereford 2
Warwick 2
Beaufighter 1
Master 1
Oxford 1

* SOE Operations

Here is a great site for tracing particular aircraft

http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/

forget

25th Oct 2007, 15:03

Thank you Roland and LowNSlow. . :) My Number 2 son has a design company in Dubai and, if the thoughts are that this is worth working on further, he's said he can put together a professional artist's rendering of the whole thing. Maybe even 360 interactive, if that's what you call it. It may well be superceded by other ideas - but at least it's a starting point for AI R and others. We'll see what the consensus is. I don't want to waste his time on a non starter. ;)

3D CAM

25th Oct 2007, 15:23

Forget.
That memorial sounds just the job, BZ.:D:D:D

Airborne Aircrew

25th Oct 2007, 16:04

Chugs:

Which cart and horse is absolutely correct as are the subsequent constituencies. My thinking is the result of working for a non-profit for many years. If you go ahead from the offset trying to alter the national awareness of the issue of what BC did etc. you force yourself into a national campaign. National campaigns cost resources. If you end up not intending to try to place the memorial in London, (think about the horrendous cost if land etc. has to be purchased), then the three counties mentioned would be a potential location and would be where one would campaign to change the awareness - which would be easier due to the natural attachment many still feel for BC and also cost a lot less to mount. In this example the larger campaign can be initiated after the memorial is under construction - when you have a better idea of your fiscal assets.

Just some thoughts... and why I think the publicity is the cart and the planning is the horse... ;)

snapper41

25th Oct 2007, 16:05

Oh dear...I guess I'm not going to be popular, but the design sounds a bit...OTT to me. Memorials should be (IMHO) simple yet striking. I like the idea of the bronze effigies of the crew, but why not leave it there, with the Bomber Command badge (plus those of the Groups within it?) carved into the base?

foldingwings

25th Oct 2007, 17:27

Well, I've never thrown a snowball that's gathered such speed and grown to such a size before!

Please understand this is not my petition, I just advertised it to people I thought might care - got that right!

By the way, the petition has stagnated in the mid-300s, so don't look for another Ashsted moment quite yet!

I've read the majority of the detail of what has been discussed since the thread expanded and I commend the enthusiasm and may have some time available to assist with any work planned. However, we must not misunderstand just how much of an uphill struggle the task will be and all the PC-thought police and 'bleeding heart' apologists that we will not only have to convince but also pacify.

I am involved with my local AirCrew Association (ACA), all of whom are of a more senior generation to me and most of whom are 'Bomber Boys', so I will take a sounding of their 'location view' when I meet with them in 2 weeks time.

You too (if you qualify, which is most of you) could join the ACA (and get involved with your local branch) and use their weight to promote the issue - Chris Coville is the current President and many stars and ex-Chiefs populate the top end. Indeed, Bomber Harris himself was President from 1977-1984! So the ACA has 'pulling power' if we need it and the weight to influence if need be. You'll find details at:

http://www.aircrew.org.uk

Start thinking Lottery Grants, likely philanthropists etc 'cos this ain't going to be cheap'.

Now to location:

There used to be a RAF memorial just off the old A1 (LHS heading North) by Peterborough (Nelson's column type with Eagle on the top) that always caught my eye when I drove home on leave to Scotland. It's gone now or the road has moved but think of the possibilities if a piece of land could be obtained on the A1 at the Lincs/Notts/Yorks border with a 'bloody hell, mother, look at that' moment as you approached it from both north and south - now that would be a fitting memorial.

However, my endstop would be that it would be an absolute politically hot potato, a non-starter and a waste of our heartbeats to struggle against the beaurocrats and condemners to get it into London (where most of the PC-thought police and 'bleeding heart' apologists live/work and hold sway). Frankly, they don't deserve it. Lincolnshire folk (even today) know what it was like in the 40s and realise just how much sacrifice the young men who lived within their communities gave. Indeed, most adults in Lincolnshire today, who are over 40, have experienced the presence of Bomber Command in the modern era (Cold War etc) - give it to Lincolnshire!

Foldie:ok:

3D CAM

25th Oct 2007, 19:33

Foldingwings.
Just a small point re. your last post.
The memorial you mention on the A1 was, if my fading memory is correct, actually something to do with Polish? soldiers from even before the period we are discussing here. Not RAF. I am more than willing to be corrected on this but I am ashamed to admit that I actually stopped once to look at it but cannot actually remember the details.( Not ashamed of stopping, but of bad memory!)
Sorry for the slight thread creep.

forget

25th Oct 2007, 19:43

Sorry guys, The A1 memorial was actually to remember the French prisoners of the Napoleonic wars who died in the prison camp at Norman Cross. The bronze eagle was nicked years ago by pikeys. A new one was dedicated a couple of years ago on the A15, just East of Norman Cross. The new one is wired. ;)

Here you are - http://www.lhi.org.uk/projects_directory/projects_by_region/east_of_england/city_of_peterborough/norman_cross_eagle_appeal/index.html

Chugalug2

25th Oct 2007, 19:46

the publicity is the cart and the planning is the horse... ;)

Very well put, AA, and point taken. So much to learn, so little time!
Chug

Al R

25th Oct 2007, 19:58

Folding Wings,

The memorial you speak of is one to French Napoleonic soldiers captured, and imprisoned in P'boro. It is at Norman's Cross, just of the A1 north of Stilton. A camp for French and Dutch soldiers and sailors was built there between 1796 and 1816, and about 10,000 prisoners were held there. 1,700 died and were buried in the camp's cemetery, which is now well and truly ploughed over and is behind the motel which may be seen from the A1. Several thousand English troops were stationed there as well, to guard the POWs and its the reason why there are so many French names in and around Yaxley and P'boro.

It was located next to the A1, but was moved to its current location when the upgrading of the stretch to Motorway status was completed in 1998.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Cross

http://stilton.org/cam_norman_cross_memorial.html

Al R

25th Oct 2007, 20:46

I have spent the day mulling a lot of things over, I am an impulsive bloke and I need to keep that in check! Thanks for all the PMs.. many from serving officers who have got shedloads of experience we need. Reading todays additions made me realise that to communicate properly, we need to be able to see things in width and in depth, and more than one thing at once too. I have set this up, I have probably done it all wrong, but it might be a useful addition if we're to work as efficiently and as effectively as we can.

Bear in mind too, that the Bomber Command Association meets soon, so if we're to present some ideas to them (they are keen in principle to help), we need to move quickly. If you're of a mind, please have a look, save it to faves and join up. It'll be somewhere for discussion that has its own focus, and where we can attract attention orput on a website homepage.

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforum=bomberboys&act=idx

It takes a few seconds to join and there's no waiting.

Al R

25th Oct 2007, 21:05

AA and Chuggers,

You've both got really valid points about the publicity, and I agree with bits of both of them, and I don't say that in the manner of some patronising pratt. You say things I hadn't thought of, and we need to plunder whats lurking in that grey matter.

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforum=bomberboys&act=idx

Lets explore those ideas further.

Forget, and Hugh,

I love both those ideas. For what its worth I found myself on an old airfield today and I shivered, not from the cold, but from 'this'. For what its worth, here's my scheme! A huge (bronze) hand, uncurling, and pointing/facing towards where the boys would be returning from, and on the wrist, clambering up the palm and fingers, a crew.. all ready to go, looking skywards. At the base, a lady with a child signifying those who lost a lot more, a lot closer to home.

Al R

25th Oct 2007, 21:07

Forget,

Our bronze Eagle posts clashed a bit. Cold today, what?! ;)

Al R

25th Oct 2007, 21:10

Foldie,

Good scheme ref the ACA etc, and the list of benefactors. I can think of some serious mainstream meeja heavyweights who I know will give this clout. One only has to see the list of donors at the US museum at Duxford to see that too. Can you help? :)

foldingwings

26th Oct 2007, 07:09

Just a point while I think of it:

I'd be disinclined to put the names of the dead on the memorial (as suggested by someone about 3 pages back). I would see the memorial more as a tribute to all those men of Bomber Command who gave their all for this country, not only those who made the ultimate sacrifice.

Foldie

PS. Ref Golden Eagle! I never had time to stop and look, I was going to Scotland, fer Chrissake (in a TR6!). Looked like Air Force from 80(!) kts with my ass scraping along the deck!:cool:

Chugalug2

26th Oct 2007, 10:00

Well we seem to have set ourselves an awesome task here folks. Just to state the bleedingly obvious, if we're to proceed, and it seems that we already have, we have to succeed, so we have to do it right. IMHO it calls for horses for courses. In other words the best chance for success is from those who have already experienced success in similar ventures. This is no time to be shy. The project addresses the one big injustice concerning the RAF in WW2, the lack of a national memorial to the sacrifice made by the crews of Bomber Command on our behalf over 60 years ago. If you think that is a scandal then register with Al R's CP at:

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforum=bomberboys&act=idx

and have your say. These are early days but we need to hit the road runnning with a full crew all going the same way.

Chugalug2

27th Oct 2007, 09:54

Bouncing this thread to the top again. Don't stop with all the thoughts and suggestions. Many will have no more time available other than to do just that, but such contributions are still valuable and keep this project in the forefront of everybody's mind. Lots of great input already, but let's have lots more please!

foldingwings

28th Oct 2007, 08:20

Only 358 Names On The Petition At 0816 Hrs Today - That's A Very Small Percentage Of The Lives Lost In Bomber Command During The Second World War That This Country Has Not Recognised With Either An Appropriate Memorial Or A Campaign Medal

disgusting!

Foldie:}

Al R

28th Oct 2007, 09:03

Best foot forward then Foldie?

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforum=bomberboys&act=idx

foldingwings

28th Oct 2007, 09:14

Yep, I know. Just getting round to it!:O

Al R

28th Oct 2007, 09:18

:E

lol. Its Sunday morning, I understand!

forget

28th Oct 2007, 17:15

I thought this may be of some interest. RCAF Bomber Command Memorial.

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/memorialgranite.html

PS ..... and RAAF here.

http://www.skp.com.au/memorials2/pages/00058.htm

PPS .......... and SAAF here, with WWII included

http://www.af.mil.za/NEWS/2007/064.htm

Chugalug2

28th Oct 2007, 20:10

Great post, Forget, thank you! It illustrates clearly the choice between the 'traditional' form of memorial, typically marble panels bearing the names of the fallen, and the 'designer' interpretive statement type, illustrated by the 'searchlight' pylon. Of the two I very much favour the former. Having no doubt travelled a fair way to visit such a memorial there is a comfort in finding the name of one's lost relative. I remember the one time I was able to visit the CWGC cemetery at Yokohama, armed with an alphanumeric grave location. Having tracked it down the tingle on seeing my Dad's name there on a bronze plaque so far from home will never leave me. In these things tradition is a virtue, I think.

herkman

29th Oct 2007, 05:45

A suggestion if I may.

The Australian government takes great enjoyment, if that is the word, to financing memorials both within Australia, and overseas. Gives the learned gentlemen a chance to strut around and look important.

Having had some exposure to Veterans Affairs down here, I would be most surprised if they would not help with the costs.

Also with Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and I am sure some I cannot recall, then perhaps it should be a joint funding operation.

This also will put the UK government on the back foot, after all one should not appear to be reluctant, even if one is.

With the chance that we too, may have a change of our masters, now could be the chance to move.

I would be quite happy to give any assistance from our end.

Lot of ex BC chaps down here.

Regards

Col

Al R

29th Oct 2007, 08:30

Col,

What a spendid suggestion.

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx

See you there?

Hugh Spencer

29th Oct 2007, 11:24

I seem to be the only ex WW2 Bomber Command aircrew contributing at the moment but I like the ideas of Roland Pulfrew, forget and snapper41. They get away from the customary slab covered, deservedly mind you, with lost aircrew. Any of those above would be very eye catching which would make up of the public disregard and disinterest shown over the past 62 years. Let's keep this enthusiasm going and probe for commercial interest to see this worthwhile project come to fruition.

Al R

29th Oct 2007, 12:00

Hi Hugh,

I hope you are well sir!!

I have had chats with RAFA and with the Bomber Command Assoc this morning and, as is the way, at this stage its a question of firstly addressing deconflictation issues and then a multitude of other matters before you get anywhere near the door.

Its still early days, but the initial feedback is all good. It would seem that the support is there, so in principle there is nothing to stop things progressing in a healthy manner. The tendency would be to tap into the enthusiasm we have and just go at it hammer and tongues, but this might take a while. Softly softly, catchy monkey.

I'll summarise what both bodies said and post the feedback here and on the Bomber Boys chat net later today. If you'd like to join us there, you'd be more than welcome. We need input from people like you Hugh, its priceless.

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx

Al.

Al R

29th Oct 2007, 19:04

I had a couple of chats with the Bomber Command Assoc (BCA) today, and with RAFA.

First, the BCA.

They have no record of anyone approaching them to try and get something like this going, and are very keen to work with us. They have a constant stream of members asking why there is no memorial, so it suits them to be able to tell their members that matters are in hand. They have 5000 members and would like for the members (obviously) to be consulted/informed/taken into account as things progress. They have an executive meeting on the 14th Nov and would like that a presentation of our plans to be made to them. Obviously, they are collocated at the IWM, and with the officers and trustees of the Assoc being who they are, they’re neatly connected. They are willing to help in the background, and to offer advice.

RAFA is organising a RAF garden of reflection at the National Memorial in Staffs. RAFA is not able, through its Charter, to actively campaign for memorials (seems like it’s a similar arrangement that the BCA has), but is keen to help support something else, if the project is right. They are even more keen than the BCA that the membership needs to be involved, which helps us anyway, as it means that we get the right publicity out to grass roots in one big hit. RAFA is well placed to offer media support and pr advice, which we'd be daft not to tap into. To be connected with us would help both of us. We get their advice and infrastructure, they're seen to be doing the right sort of thing. It has a small fundraising team, which raises £3million per annum for other things, but I would imagine that our efforts in that area would have to be seperate though. The quiet support of both organisations would be a massive help. Even a quiet nod will be invaluable when approaching sponsors with connected men at the top.

RAFA touched on an aspect that we hadn’t considered, that of the boys’ endeavours being seen as an inspiration. RAFA feels that the way Bomber Command conducted itself, its professionalism and sacrifices should be seen in the context of being inspirational, but that it should also very definitely, be somewhere for reflection too. RAF talked about what AA mentioned, the need for a peripheral draw, to keep people returning, and visiting.

They both said that the Bomber boys are a very active bunch, and they didn’t mention that the location had to be so important in the grand scheme of things, although obviously, there must be a reason for it to be there. In summary, it seems that there is no focused, co ordinated push to get something done. The boys at Bicester are doing a cracking job it seems, at keeping the site there safe, but there is limited success at the moment in getting a memorial going, hardly surprising given the magnitude of what they've taken on! Both groups are keen to help.. it allows them to be seen to be doing the right thing in light of their constraints, it is the right thing and its blummin' well long overdue.

I would suggest that we approach the Bicester boys (who are trying to save the Bicester site) and see if we can assume responsibility for the memorial itself, with their support and help, which hopefully that will allow them to focus on the nuts and bolts of saving the site (if thats where we're going to select). If we have support from some players for the memorial in principle, if we get some funding rolling in, then it might make their job easier, if they are able to indicate that they want to place there, a memorial which looks like it will have massive popular support.

The MP is a long standing Tory.

http://www.tonybaldry.org.uk/index.jsp

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/tony_baldry/banbury

In summary; he likes hunting and Trident more than he does gay people and students, but his record on defence issues is patchy. nderstandably, he has a vested interest in keeping Bicester going, although I imagine the prospect of lots of new well heeled house buyers into new houses there will warm the cockles of his heart just as nicely. This seems to be the most obvious reference to what he's spoken about. I'm sure he'll want to impress his constituency neigbour too.. it might be assesment time.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/tony_baldry/banbury#topics

If anyone has any ideas, then please pipe up here or comment on the Bomber Boys chatnet. All input, advice and involvement gratefully received.

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx

TheStrawMan

7th Nov 2007, 08:03

Dambusters memorial is 'defaced'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7082401.stm

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Roland Pulfrew

7th Nov 2007, 09:02

I would suggest that we approach the Bicester boys (who are trying to save the Bicester site) and see if we can assume responsibility for the memorial itself, with their support and help, which hopefully that will allow them to focus on the nuts and bolts of saving the site (if thats where we're going to select). If we have support from some players for the memorial in principle, if we get some funding rolling in, then it might make their job easier, if they are able to indicate that they want to place there, a memorial which looks like it will have massive popular support.

Just to add to Al R's post, and I think I have posted this before on this site, but worth a look all the same. And another petition to sign if you aren't all petitioned out!!

http://www.bc-heritage.org/bicester/

snapper41

12th Nov 2007, 08:51

Much as I admire what the Bicester boys are doing (I am an ex-Bicester air cadet), I don't think it's the place for a BC memorial. In its long history, Bicester never launched even one operational sortie; it was a training base. If the memorial is going to be at an airfield (and personally I think it should be at the National Memorial in Staffs - neutral ground), then Lincs/Yorks/Cambs should be the choice.

forget

12th Nov 2007, 12:47

I’d say there’s only one ‘proper’ place for a Bomber Command Memorial, and that’s Lincolnshire, which leaves quite a choice. Perhaps Swinderby? Gateway to Bomber County, 6 Miles to the A1 and 5 miles to Lincoln. The original Bomber Command runway is still there, and part of this could be used as the Memorial ‘base’. There’s even the old WWII control tower, which could be ‘moved’.

Here’s my starter to argue about.:hmm:

It would be nice to hear comments from RAF, RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF and SAAF. Anyone there?

A black granite wall has engraved the names of 55,000 lost Bomber Command aircrew. At one end of the wall is a group of seven airmen representing a Bomber crew, with one WAAF (and one ground crew). The bronze figures are slightly larger than life size and are positioned so that visitors may walk amongst them. Against the wall is a bronze ladder. A crew member has one foot on the ladder. At the ladder’s top a rectangular hole is cut into the granite representing the entry door to a Bomber Command aircraft. The symbolism being that the crew will soon enter the wall - never to return - but their names will be there forever.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/BACKDROP.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/SWINPLAN.jpg

Al R

12th Nov 2007, 13:30

Hi Snapper,

To my way of thinking, there are two issues.. that which is dictated by my heart, and that which is dictated by my head. I understand the purity of choosing, as Forget beautifully demonstrates, somewhere like Swinderby, but there are many considerations which will only gain in importance as time marches on.

Capel le Ferme was never a fighter station, but it overlooks the battleground and its somewhere for reflection and it has a tie in, that any single unit never would be able to match. Somewhere on the coast, whether it be Yorkshire or East Anglia has that same evocative potential for the bomber boys. Many crews never fought from Lincs, so if we are to consider the issue of location as being paramount, then it has to apply equally.

Bicester is good in some ways, because it might be soon, a preserved site. It is central and it did have connections with training crews. It also has a sense of continuity, and if, in 100 years time, we want to say with any degree of certainty that the site would still be there, there aren't many better. I see the benefits and advantages of choosing Loncs as the obvious choice. To my mind though, wherever we do eventually decide upon, it will be a compromise, as these things tend to always be. Bicester, as you point out, also has many dissadvantages too.

snapper41

12th Nov 2007, 14:24

I think you're right over the heart/head issue. My heart would say Lincs, but that would not be right for Yorks or Cambs. I've mentioned it before on this thread, but 8 Gp (Pathfinders) was, by the end of the war, the largest in BC and was based in Cambs; also, don't forget the Halifax crews in Yorks. Using the same argument, I think that to put a memorial at a particular airfield would also be divisive; how do you choose the relative merits of one over another - number of sorties mounted? Losses sustained? Plus, most old airfields already have memorials to the station and/or individual sqns.
My head says the National Memorial Arboretum. Neutral ground, and it is the National focus for remembrance. No problems about having the memorial looked after, or the ground in perpetuity, and it looked good on the TV yesterday! Plus, have a look here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=299903

Read the first post from Fortyodd2.

Al R

12th Nov 2007, 17:56

Indeed.

6 Gp was the Canadian contribution, and they operated from Yorkshire too but none of us are going to be able to present the perfect site. Forget's wall looks stunning. I was thinking the other day.. that, with a statue at Flamborough Head, just outside Bridlington, of a 7 man crew.. looking out to sea would be spine tingling. One would be looking inland maybe, his head turning at the sound of the formation organising itself as it climbed to height. The guys at the front could be searching for crews returning (Bridlington was an IP by all accounts, and has a radar station there to help navigation) and one or two could be sitting down, in reflection.

It would be framed by the setting sun, and sunrise would catch the guys at the front looking for returning (lost) comrades. I came upon Capel by chance once, and it was the sudden unexpected find which caught me unawares. As a result, I was caught short, and boy, even now.. I find that the emotions I felt were all self induced. There was no pomp, there was no pre conditioning.. the simple solitude and dignity of the site struck me to the core. What we did for the fighter lads, we must now do for the Bomber Boys.

The location of the site is in many ways, not important. Lets face it, in 70 years there will be no one left alive who can even remember talking to someone who flew bombers. What is important is that we have somewhere.. anywhere that us safe, dignified and somewhere where we will never forget the 56,000 who died. That they are forgotten and that their sacrifice is forgotten in such a cynical way makes me very sad.

Christ, we talk about the disshonouring of the Military Covenant now? Where was their recognition? It makes me so angry. Why is the RAF at the forefront of organising this? If you'd like to have your say, or help out Snapps, why not get stuck in? Its early days, but insight is always welcome. We have masses of good intentions, loads of enthusiasm and Chuggers has his hands full keeping me in check, so the more the merrier.

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforum=bomberboys&act=idx

Roland Pulfrew

12th Nov 2007, 19:49

Forget

That is very much how I imagined the design from your earlier discription. Could I make a couple of suggestions? Could the wall around the "entrance hatch" be made more fuselage shaped? Perhaps a curve above the door and curve under the door with some panel lines engraved, so that it is easier to see what the hole in the wall represents. A WAAF in trousers in the 1940s????? Surely a skirt in that uniform.

Finally I would not be a fan of placing the memorial in the undershoot of what still has potential to be active. I think that design would look great in somewhere like...well Hyde Park!!

After all we already have:

Australia
http://www.londonlogue.com/places-to-go/australian-war-memorial-london.html

and New Zealand
http://www.londonlogue.com/places-to-go/new-zealand-war-memorial-london.html

and The Commonwealth
http://www.roll-of-honour.com/London/CommonwealthMemorial.html

Al R

12th Nov 2007, 20:03

Good final point Roland. Will Swinderby ever be active again I wonder?

Hyde Park eh..?

Roland Pulfrew

12th Nov 2007, 20:30

Actually Al R, any of the Royal Parks would do, gets round the "in perpetuity" problem.

I just thought Hyde Park because Lancaster Gate tube station borders the park:O

I know. Too corny, I'll get my coat.....

Perhaps St James's Park would be better. Horseguards, RAF Club etc etc.

Al R

12th Nov 2007, 21:08

No, you missunderstand me. Its a great idea! We seem to be getting loads, which is what we need.

Chugalug2

12th Nov 2007, 21:16

Al is right; the significant quality that this memorial must have over all else is longevity. Think of the memorials to the battles won 200 years ago, Trafalgar that saved us from invasion with HMS Victory and Trafalgar Square, Waterloo that secured victory with the Lions Mound at the site and Wellington Arch. We must think in terms of 200 years on. The BoB sites already at Capel and the embankment celebrate our deliverance from invasion once again. The Bomber Command memorials, on location and in London would likewise pay homage to the sacrifice that ensured victory. Even those who believe that is so will know that has been a contentious statement since 1945. That is why the first memorial must reflect Capel, ie in Bomber Command country where acceptance will be greater. Of the sites considered to date I too must confess to the attraction of Flamborough Head. Not an operational base, but a coastal feature that was used inbound and outbound as a turning point, coasting out fix, inbound H2S radar fix. Hard by the Emergency Landing Ground at Carnaby, and the Air Sea Rescue launches at Bridlington it was an important and desperately sought landmark for those aircrews limping home in badly damaged bombers. I can think of no better location, neutral and of shared significance, but the search must go on for even more possible locations so that a run off with all the pros and cons can be held. We have a long way to go, and local knowledge will be the key to final success.

snapper41

13th Nov 2007, 08:59

A WAAF in trousers in the 1940s????? Surely a skirt in that uniform.

Depends what job they were doing. MT drivers, armourers etc wore trousers, while the office-bound ones wore skirts; I assume Forget's intention is to depict the former? I'll shut up now before I'm accused of knowing too much about skirts...

Scroll down the page here:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.howardgoodall.co.uk/musicals/phyllisd.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.howardgoodall.co.uk/musicals/gfstext.htm&start=4&h=320&w=228&sz=17&tbnid=4iaCbAlcTyEnNM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=84&hl=en&um=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwaaf%2Barmourer%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den %26cr%3DcountryUK%257CcountryGB%26sa%3DN

for the original pics.

forget

13th Nov 2007, 09:18

Snapper's correct. The model is Miss Phyllis Dike, WAAF.

http://members.aol.com/famjustin/PMilesbio.html

WAAF drivers wore slacks to eliminate the flash of Air Ministry knickers when mounting a 3 tonner.

Including a WAAF driver was Hugh's idea.:ok: I need a photograph of a rigger wearing a leather jerkin. Anyone?

The aircrew shoulder flashes will show RAF (Eagle), Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. One of the aircrew will be West Indian. What else can be woven in?

Roland Pulfrew

13th Nov 2007, 16:17

forget
Sorry I forgot about the female drivers etc. I had visions of a Suzannah York look-a-like from BofB film!!:E

Another thought though - with regard to the rough concrete signifying the taxiways of WWII airfields could this be designed to look like either the "frying pan" type dispersal or the typical double v shaped dispersals found on so many airfields? (I would post a link to an aerial photo but not from this computer)

Secondly with regard to the 55000 names, did anyone see the recent programme on the building of the Armed Force Memorial? The specialist engravers (based in N. Ireland IIRC) took some significant time to engrave just 16000 names on that monument, without rank or nationality, so we should be under now illusion how long it would take to engrave 55000+. On marble or granite!!

Early days and getting down in the weeds I know, but how would they be ordered? By date of loss? By Squadron (my preference and would allow the engraving of all of the sqn badges)? By nationality? Any other thoughts?

forget

13th Nov 2007, 16:35

Suzannah York look-a-like? A black suspender belt loses its appeal when it's in bronze. :sad:

55,000 names aren't a problem - they aren't chiselled these days. The individual panels, (4 feet by 4 feet) could be farmed out to more than one company.

Lots of useful stuff from the Vietnam Wall, DC.

http://thewall-usa.com/information.asp

HOW ARE THE NAMES ARRANGED ON THE WALL?
They are in chronological order, according to the date of casualty within each day, the names are alphabetized. For the dead, the date of casualty is the date they were wounded (received in combat) or injured (received in an accident); for the missing, the date they were reported to be missing.

HOW WAS THE PROCESS DONE?
The names were NOT carved by hand, but by a computerized typesetting process called photo stencil gritblasting developed specifically for the Memorial. The process is of a digitized typeface called Optima. It involves a film negative at one-third in size from which an enlargement is made, a film positive (a stencil) at full size. The next step is coating the granite, which has been polished, with a photo sensitive emulsion, and the image is then transferred from the enlargement to the stone in a process very similar to silkscreening. When this step has been completed, the stone within the area of the letters is exposed and the remaining surface is protected by the emulsion.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/800px-Vietnam_war_memorial.jpg

foldingwings

13th Nov 2007, 20:15

I have to admit to some self satisfaction having started this thread off.

I am also extremely grateful to Al R for giving it a significant push and his initiative in setting up the dedicated forum at:

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx

However, a few points if I may:

1. Could those who have joined in the debate on PPRuNe recently please galvanize their thoughts along with the others on the above link.

2. Could those who have not signed the Government Petition at:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Bomberboys/

please do so ASAP - currently only 436 signatures and sinking fast!

Thanks

Foldie

diginagain

14th Nov 2007, 06:01

Firstly, well done to foldingwings, Al R and all for their efforts in raising the issue of a long-overdue memorial to all who served in Bomber Command. In my own view, while a memorial on Flamborough Head, similar to that at Capel, has merit, the communications links which would allow visitors to pay their respects are lacking. My preference would be to erect a memorial in or near Harrogate Stonefall War Cemetery, if sufficient space could be found.

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 06:23

Bridlington is certainly off the beaten track, although its not so remote you can't get to it. Its close to a hub (I imagine) of existing survivors, and would have an impact to those who chance upon it in years to come, that might compel the unprepared soul to think, and to go away with a powerful impression. Thats what I felt after I left Capel for the first time. It stopped me metaphorically, and literally, in my tracks. And to this day my visit and my impressions of the efforts of those it remembers remains vivid.

Harrogate sounds like an interesting option. Have you been there (often)? You infer its quite small? Was there ever a local airfield? I shall have to look it up. On the plus side too, there are shed loads of tea rooms. :ok:

diginagain

14th Nov 2007, 06:56

Al R, whilst getting to/from Brid isn't too tricky, Flamborough Head is (from memory) down a narrow road.

Harrogate Stonefall contains, according to CWGC 988 WW2 burials, the vast majority airmen, and around two-thirds Canadian. Local airfields include Dishforth, Leeming, Linton, Tholthorpe and others.

A layout of Stonefall, courtesy of CWGC website;

Harrogate Stonefall Cemetery (http://www.cwgc.org/plans/7-84/M002.GIF)

I haven't visited the area for some time, but I do recall spending rather a lot of money for a cup of tea and a scone at Betty's. If space in Harrogate is a problem, then perhaps the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington could be considered?

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 07:22

Elvington has cropped up many times. The problem (although that might be too strong a word, but my brain hasn't woken up yet) is that if we align too closely to one area, we run the risk of alienating those synonymous with another. If we identify Lincs, Yorkshire and Cambs as being the 3 main areas where ops were mounted from, and if we choose one of those 3 to be where the sacrifice will be remembered in perpetuity, do we run the risk of diminishing the efforts of those who flew from either of the other two?

Capel is neutral and was an old arty position funnily enough, which shows that when siting, you don't need (possibly) such an intimate military aviation connection in general, let alone a theatre specific one in particular. What do you think?

I wasn't showing my ignorance about local airfields, I was wondering more if there was one located at Harrogate. The area is peaceful, its easy to get to and it has connections. On the surface of it, its ideal, as all of the choices we have had so far, are. It would too, get support from the Canadians, but on a political note, would alligning ourselves so closely with one particular Commonwealth partner alienate us from the rest? Perhaps I am being too sensitive, perhaps I need that first coffee sooner rather than later.

Thanks for the info about Brid/Flam. A recce is certainly called for soon. Great fish and chips there too.

snapper41

14th Nov 2007, 07:27

Please - let's steer clear of suggesting a museum as the site for the memorial. People would have to pay to get in to see it - surely not the idea; it has to be accessible to all.

diginagain

14th Nov 2007, 07:34

Noted, however siting a memorial adjacent to a museum would be mutually beneficial.

Another possibilty (if we're going with Yorkshire - and I'll admit a certain bias) might be to site a memorial within the grounds of Allerton Park Castle. Hard by the A59/A1M junction, and historically HQ 6(RCAF) Group.

snapper41

14th Nov 2007, 07:51

Mutually-beneficial it may be, but I don't think the memorial should be seen as supporting any particular museum, either inside the grounds or out. I understand the Allerton Park Castle idea, but the same might be said for Bawtry Hall (HQ 1 Gp), or any of the other Gp HQs.

This is why, IMHO, the memorial must be on neutral ground. Three Counties have a claim to BC, plus every Gp HQ location, every airfield, and several museums; you simply can't choose any one site over the others as 'more deserving'. The National Memorial Arboretum is the way ahead!

foldingwings

14th Nov 2007, 07:54

Save petrol and take a look here:

http://www.manorhouse.clara.net/main/headland.htm

Scroll down to the photos at the bottom.

I visited Flamborough Head last year and it is accessible, albeit the village is a quaint relic of the past (no insult intended). The area is popular with tourists, ramblers and 'birders' and consequently has adequate roads (we don't need a dual carriageway) to the cliff top areas and the 2 'Landings' (North and South) with adequate car parking in all areas. Additionally, there are a number of pubs, tearooms and small restaurants in the village and places to eat and drink by the Landings.

The roads to Bridlington from the west are absolutely no problem (albeit they are not predominantly dual carriageway in the latter stages), however a good run from Nottingham (The Midlands) took only 2.5 hours. As you can see from the website above there are good hotels locally for those who would linger.

The only snag might be that it is a 'Heritage Coastline' but I suspect the White Cliffs are too!

Foldie

Chugalug2

14th Nov 2007, 08:18

I don't think the memorial should be seen as supporting any particular museum, either inside the grounds or out.

Not even if the museum is dedicated specifically to Bomber Command, Snapper? For that is the concept that Bomber Command Heritage have as their aim for Bicester, a site listed by English Heritage as a unique surviving inter-war and Bomber Command wartime airfield. All the access points above are met, its central location favours all, its county location (Oxfordshire) answers the neutral ground point and its OTU wartime function has a poignant claim to siting the memorial there. For it was at the OTUs that the trained pilots, navs, airengs, gunners etc formed up and trained as crews. Here, and at the other OTUs, were where they met for the first time and from where they went on to HCU to train on type, and thence to their operational squadrons. In the subsequent operations they tragically all too often died as a crew. All this story would be told in "the adjacent museum", within the Tech Blocks and Type C Hangars etc of Bicester. Even the grass airfield is active, albeit with the tranquil and peaceful aviation of gliding. I find it a compelling and a fitting setting. The memorial would have to be accessed separately from the Heritage Centre, and of course totally free to enter. Just like Portsmouth, a memorial to such an important fight can co-exist within the heritage that surrounds it, and do so 200 years after the event!

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 08:22

Snapper,

The issue that I have with the National Memorial Arboretum is an illogical one, but here goes. I don't like the idea that some shiny has dictated that all memorials need to go in one place because thats efficient, its practical and its all the rest of that guff. Memorials are by their very nature, emotive and stirring places. I wonder (and switches are set to 'corrected' here) if making the memorial pilgrimage with all the other worthy souls puts one in the right frame of mind? It just seems all too formulaic for me, and completely at odds with the sentiment of remembrance in a unique and distinctive manner. Production line approach maybe. I'm not having a go at the site, its mind boggling and stunning, but I think there's room for a little piece of England somewhere, with 'Bomber Boys' on it, somewhere which will justify treating this awesome and humbling sacrifice with the extraordinary commitment it deserves. Thats just me initial thought.. ultimately, as long as we remember the boys in a fitting manner, then thats cool by me.

Foldie,

I've always liked the idea of a coast, a statue of men maybe, looking out to sea for returning friends. It might be more practical than East Anglia (wot with the floods an' all).

Diggers,

The advantage of a site like Bicester (ahh, Bisto!) is that it does encourage extra footfall because it has extra potential for suitably dignified 'attractions' (and I use the word advisadly). A suitable comparison would be with what the Mary Rose Trust is trying to achieve. They have the vesssel, and they have the education aspect too, in the form of a great 'museum' / visitor centre. If getting the word out to as many folk as possible about the sacrifice is up there on the list of priorities, Bisto has to be up there on the list of candidates. Its all down to the 'feel' of the site.. what do we want to achieve? Somewhere for reflection and solitude, somewhere to remember.. or somewhere where their sacrifice will never ever be forgotten and as many people as possible knowing what they went through? This I suspect, is going to be more a long term aim, and the site needs to be there still, in say, 100- 150 years plus. We have to go into this with that vision, that level of certainty and committment. Bisto offers, potentially, the chance to place the memorial in secure surroundings where its future is guaranteed.

As I said, its all about what we are trying to achieve, as much as it is, where we are trying to achieve it. I think that if we get one right, the other will follow naturally. Which though, has more priority? Feel, or Location? Heart, or head?

forget

14th Nov 2007, 08:28

To me, co-locating any Memorial with a museum smacks of 'additional visitor attraction', and I don't like the sound of that. :(

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 08:34

In that case, are we saying that we don't want additional visitors? It might lack purity, but without visitors, do we run the risk of making a glorious white elephant? Long after we're all dead, do we want their memory to live on, healthily?

The colocated 'attractions' would of course, not include candy floss or anything like that. They would be in keeping with the feel of the site, discrete and not overpowering, as the Bisto Boys have affirmed, if we did want to put the memorial there.

Chugalug2

14th Nov 2007, 08:50

Forget, this memorial is to those who gave their lives in the biggest, longest, costliest campaign that the RAF has fought, or is ever likely to fight. It was fought to ensure victory over tyranny, and to borrow WSC's quote: 'never was so much owed by so many to so many'. In decades, aye and centuries to come, this story, this sacrifice must pass down through the generations. Special as it will be to the survivors, to the next of kin, to those of later generations who have served, in time all of those people will themselves be memories, but this memorial will live on. It will either be a mystery, witness the Napoleonic POW Eagle monument featured earlier in the thread, or it will be a well known and well loved part of our heritage in itself, telling a familiar tragic but proud story that all will have learned. I know which outcome that I would prefer.

Roland Pulfrew

14th Nov 2007, 08:51

I am with Al R on the NMA. It is a great location for the new Armed Force Memorial but I feel it is wrong for a potential Bomber Command Memorial. IMHO there is a danger that the relevance will be lost amongst all the other memorials.

The site of an extant museum might be an option given careful selection. What about East Kirkby? (Although I would have reservations wrt remoteness/accessibility). Where the Panton(?) Bros might be on side and might offer some land in perpetuity (don't know them and am only surmising).

I am also against the N. Yorks coastal location, it's just too remote I am afraid and too, well, Yorkshire. (Not that I am against Yorkshire in anyway, I have served at a few Yorkshire stations in my time and had a great time at each one). If this is aimed at a "national" memorial to those who paid the ultimate price then it should be with many of the other national memorials. London. Easy to get to from all parts of the country. The focus of national remembrance. Any surviving veterans coming from overseas will (generally) land at Heathrow or Gatwick so ease of travel from overseas as well. In one of the Royal parks which would protect it in perpetuity and also mean that, given the right location, it would get the odd flypast or two each year.

Strangely I am also attracted to the Bicester option, but there is no guarantee that the preservation of Bicester will succeed in the longer term. With Broone and Broon in charge I think that such a "brownfield" site has many £££s value to the Treasury if it is sold off for housing. Although at least 1 operational bomber squadon flew from there flying, IIRC, Bolton Paul Overstrands. At least Bicester is safe from global warming unlike some of the East Anglian airfields :E

diginagain

14th Nov 2007, 08:57

Al R, I have no difficulty with a co-location such as Bicester, per se, since, as already been discussed the airfield has both relevance and access. My point regarding YAM is that it already exists, with collections relevant to BC operations, i.e. the Airgunners collection, and 'Friday the 13th'.

I agree with you regarding Alrewas; I would hate the National Memorial Arboretum to become a collection of memorials, much like a theme park. The BC memorial deserves a place in its own right. If, as foldingwings suggests, Flamorough Head has suitable infrastructure, a symmetry with Capel could be beneficial.

On reflection, Stonefall Cemetery stands out (for me at least) as a tribute to sacrifice. It is a resting, and restful, place, for remembering individuals, much like all such CWGC sites and smaller plots, and deserves to be left undisturbed.

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 09:06

I'm just heading out the door, but if I could pick up very quickly on the comment made by Roland about Bisto, I think I'm right in saying that there is strong local political support to maintain the site, and that the MoD to get stuffed, with regards to selling the site for housing. The site as it now stands, is preserved, officially. The problem could be the issue of an impasse between the MoD not wanting to give it away (in effect) and their inability to sell it for housing. The MoD could of course, override everything still, and issue a CPO.. maybe?

Chuggers,

You know more about this.. could you advise either way?

snapper41

14th Nov 2007, 09:32

Al R et al;
I'm sorry, but to borrow Duncan Bannatyne's phrase from 'Dragons' Den'; I'm out.

I am as great an advocate for a BC memorial as any (it's long overdue), but Bicester is not the place; it was never an operational airfield, and it hardly springs to anyone's mind (Joe Public, anyway) as having a deep association with BC.

The comments about 'theme park' and 'production line' for the National Memorial Arboretum are hopelessly wide of the mark; just look at the positive comments about it on another thread on pprune. I'm sure the relatives of the 16000 on the new Armed Forces memorial won't agree with you (and nor do I - there are the names of several colleauges of mine on there).
Putting a BC memorial at an exisiting museum, be it Elvington or East Kirkby or wherever is also wrong. It needs to have free entry and not support any other cause, however worthwhile; it must 'stand alone'.

Good luck in your endeavours, but this is not the way ahead.

diginagain

14th Nov 2007, 10:02

I am not advocating placing a memorial within an existing museum, snapper41, merely to place it near a known, and relevant landmark. Perhaps 'co-located' was the wrong expression. A BC memorial could be established within the vicinity of Elvington, outwith the YAM, and therefore not subject to an entry fee. Such proximity would benefit both concerns, naturally, but would that be so terrible? Incidently, there is a precident at Elvington - the memorial to the two Free French Halifax squadrons which operated from RAF Elvington is in the nearby village.

foldingwings

14th Nov 2007, 10:22

Snapper,

Please feel free to voice your opinion but please do not withdraw. Your voice as a veteran of Bomber Command is extremely valuable and I too agree with you on the subject of locating a memorial within a 'theme park'. Bicester will not get my vote unless somebody convinces me very strongly that it is the right location.

However, I also agree with the comment above about the NMA. I would not want the impact of what we plan to be lost amongst a sea of memorials albeit they each hold value in their own right.

I am a staunch advocate for a coastal 'landfall' location (a la BoB at Capel le Ferne) whether that eventually is Flamborough Head or not remains to be seen. I also think YAM has its merits (inside or outside the gate) but not at the expense of a neutral and memorable (to them that used it) site on the coast.

Stick with it, Snapper, we are only at the ideas stage and haven't even considered how we will afford what is eventually decided.

Foldie

snapper41

14th Nov 2007, 10:30

Not a BC veteran, but currently serving - I'm only 43!

But that's a point I've made before; where do the veterans want a memorial? We can argue this until the cows come home, but it's their voice that counts. If they say 'we want it at the 02 threshold of Woolfox Lodge/Ludford Magna/Mepal' (etc etc), that's ok by me.

Cart before horse here, I think.

diginagain

14th Nov 2007, 10:39

I must admit, snapper has a point. Who do we ask, while we can?

snapper41

14th Nov 2007, 11:08

We ask the Bomber Command Association. I think Al R has spoken to them already.

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 13:05

The BCA has an executive meeting today, I dropped the secretary a line this morning. I asked for matters of guidance and one or two other things as well. The people to ask, are of course, the surviving veterans. RAFA placed an editorial piece about the petition in the latest issue of Air Mail, and as we can see, the response wasn’t great. I wonder if the activists who are the tip of the iceberg are the ones who are polarized, and the vast majority are just too busy getting on with their lives, not so much to care, but rather, content to let others make the decisions.. as were we all about the National Memorial and Capel, and I suspect, many other sites. We will ask the BCA and other organisations to sound out their members in a manner that they deem appropriate and those members of course, have elected officials who’s job it is to represent them also.

But ultimately, and this will sound tw:mad:ttish, we must remember that this is a memorial to those who CAN’T have their say about where it should go. Long after all of us have died, we need to have a site that will be available for all and one that will achieve its aim and not mine, not the ‘committee’ or any the surviving veterans. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, and I hope I’m not construed as such, but just as we need to canvas everyone’s opinion, all of our sentiments ultimately (based on personal perspective) have to be subordinate to that of the of ‘the memorial’ and its well being in 250 years. Nelson never fought his finest battle in Trafalger Square, but that is where his memory lives on best for instance. In the future, matters which are important now may not be so vital then. What will be important though, will be the environs.. for instance, can we conceive of our memorial being stick in a domestic cul de sac, or in a sea of industrial units? What might be the perfect green field site now, may not be in the future- which is why the attractions of somewhere like Bisto (which can be secured) or the coast (which can’t be spoiled) have merit.

The issue of public faces is one that is critical. We need not only military distinguished personalities, but also political and cultural icons to sell the idea. I was on the phone to the BBC this morning, and although I haven’t yet approached anyone (it would be presumptious for me to do so), a few more names were mentioned as asides. We need to appeal to as many demographic groups as possible.. it’ll make penetration of the idea easier and it’ll overcome the objection that its just another case of military duffers looking after their own again. Given the undeniable political angle to this, we need the sell to be from peers as much as anyone.

Snapper,

Don’t go!!! :{

The site will be dignified and in keeping and any peripheral attractions will be as appropriate as are for instance, other memorials at the NMA. I am not being disrespectful to that humbling place, we all have friends who are now there for ever more, but by way of justification, BCs sacrifice was staggering by any stretch of the imagination. If we can have a memorial for fluffy animals killed in war, in Park lane, I don’t think its too much to ask for the 56,000 fallen to have one of their own either. I hope you continue to make a contribution mate.. if you go, it’ll be just me and all the old giffers, like Foldie, Airborne, Forget and Chuggers. I’ve just realised, I’m the gnr there. I hope they’re not overawed.

3D CAM

14th Nov 2007, 13:20

Snapper.
Totally agree.
Ask the surviving crews, through this site, and all their connections and associations, where they would like this Memorial to be sited. Also where they think the crews who will be remembered would have liked it to be! They are the ones who count, not us! Most of us are young enough to be able to travel anywhere to pay our respects, they on the other hand....
My vote however would go to somewhere within easy driving distance of the A1. Afterall, it runs through all three " Bomber Counties"

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 13:28

3D,

I hope I didn't come across as being dismissive of the survivors and their wishes. I agree that they are far more important than the likes of us (for instance), but the scope of who to consider is massive and goes beyond just any one group. Its not only the survivors, but also the surviving relatives of those who died too, who would want to visit. Given their ages, they need to be able to visit somewhere easily and at reasonable cost too. Just considering who will want to visit is a massive task, .

I stand by my vision for the future as being of paramount importance and we overlook it at our peril. Put it next to the A1 (I know you weren't being literal) and in 15 years, it'll be shunted to make way for a Morrisons. None of us would want that.

foldingwings

14th Nov 2007, 13:44

Folks,

As promised to some (either here or on the dedicated forum, where I will post a copy) is the reuslt of my 'straw poll' of the Notts/Derbys Aircrew Association members today.

Firstly, I must state that there were only 16 members present (one had passed away in the last month which kind of brings the whole point of this effort home to us, the younger fraternity) and not all were ex-Bomber Boys.

Nevertheless, after my briefing on our plans/hopes, I asked them for their opinion and their views on location. They were 100% supportive of what we are trying to achieve but did point out that this Bomber Command Memorial does exist and was only unveiled last year:

http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/BomberCommandLincCath_270806.htm

There is also a 'Strike Wings Memorial' dedicated to the South Humberside Strike Wings on the seafront at Cleethorpes:

http://raf-lincolnshire.info/northcoates/northcoatesmemorial.htm

And there is a memorial on Plymouth Hoe evidently:

http://www.airscene.org/monument/History.htm

Apart from the Ledger Stone in Lincoln Cathedral, none of these memorials convey the essence of what we are trying to achieve nor are they BC dedicated. The Ledger is not of the magnitude, nor does it 'name names', that we desire.

So, in answer to the 'where' question, I received the following:

Could it be on an ex-bomber base? My response: Yes, but there or at a Group HQ would focus on one particular element and not on the majority. Response acknowledged as sound and sensible logic.

What about the National Memorial Arboretum? My response: That is one of the possible locations but there is a feeling amongst some that a BC Memorial needs to be individually set and in a stand-alone location to give it the impact needed.

When I think of Bomber Command, I think of Lincolnshire! Said one, to which there was a general consensus following this remark that Lincolnshire should be the home of any memorial.

What about a coastal setting? Said I and then explained the debate that we have been having here. There was considerable favour for this idea as it would have a meaning for all crews, no matter their home base, but there was concern about access to it. They understood the concept of Flamborough Head, it's proximity to Carnaby etc

What did you guys use homebound as your coastal fix? I asked. (Sorry about this but it's been said before) - Skegness Pier and that's in Lincolnshire, they chorused!

Their view on Bicester and Swinderby was 'Why? They were never operational Bomber bases!'.

In sum, their view was that what we are trying to achieve is commendable and long overdue. If their vote was to count they would wish to see a memorial either at the NMA or on the Lincolnshire Coast!

Guess, we need a recce of Skeggy Pier, now:\!

Foldie

diginagain

14th Nov 2007, 13:52

Thanks for the updates both Al R and foldingwings.

There is indeed a bronze statue of an airman on the Hoe at Plymouth.

Tongue-firmly-in-cheek time, but how long do you believe either Skeggy Pier or even coastal Lincs will be with us? If you are planning a recce, wrap up well, and take a flask - Skegness is probably shut for the winter by now.

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 13:55

.. hence the shift away from the East Anglian coast. :E

snapper41

14th Nov 2007, 14:15

If their vote was to count they would wish to see a memorial either at the NMA or on the Lincolnshire Coast!

I rest my case, M'Lud; now, can we stop the East Kirkby/Elvington/Duxford(?!)/Swinderby (actually, it was operational; 50 Sqn, 300 Sqn, 301 Sqn, but more known for recruit training)/Bicester lobbies??

3D CAM

14th Nov 2007, 14:49

AI R
No, you didn't come across as dismissive, I was just trying to emphasise a point.
Skeggy Pier??? Hmmm, someone better talk to Canute.:)

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 14:55

.. and you made it well.

Can we continue to rely on input like that, either here or at the site? I hope so.

http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforum=bomberboys&act=idx

Chugalug2

14th Nov 2007, 15:52

Folding Wings, great effort Sir, well done. The more input like that from informed and involved people such as ACA the better. Let's have lots more!

rest my case, M'Lud; now, can we stop the East Kirkby/Elvington/Duxford(?!)/Swinderby (actually, it was operational; 50 Sqn, 300 Sqn, 301 Sqn, but more known for recruit training)/Bicester lobbies??

Snapper, AFAIK no one on this thread is 'lobbying' for anywhere. We are going through a process of reviewing possible sites for a Bomber Command Memorial outside London (the capital can wait its turn). The primary reason that we are doing this is because BCA have told Al that when we have proposals to consider then they will do just that, hopefully by ballot. Because we have just got enthusiastic over this issue is no reason for them to go into hyper-drive, I imagine that each year for the last 60 plus years, someone has approached them with exactly the same brainwave, and other than the handful of discreet memorials mentioned the result has been zilch. If I was in the BCA I think that would be my reaction as well, so it is up to us to present them with the best short list possible. That means getting as many ideas as possible, a PPRune speciality, and from RAFA, ACA, in fact anyone that has an interest. That is why we have the thread running here as well as the bomberboys site. This will be a long term project which has only just begun, but will eventually end in success, I am sure. So the idea isn't to lobby and to win. It isn't to rubbish other's ideas for the sake of it. It is to put up a suggestion, make the best case you can, and acknowledge any obvious drawbacks. Emotive language like "Theme Parks" is unhelpful. Let us agree that we all want a fitting and impressive memorial, in a fitting and impressive setting to do justice to the sacrifice of so many brave Bomber Command members. No need for 'banter' or whatever gratuitous rudeness and abrasiveness passes for these days, let's leave that aside as totally inappropriate for this cause.
PS Snapper I began by addressing you, but the rant at the end was for all, including myself, so nothing personal!:)

forget

14th Nov 2007, 16:26

1. .....there was a general consensus that Lincolnshire should be the home of any memorial.

2. There was considerable favour for (a coastal location) ..... but there was concern about access to it.

3. If their vote was to count they would wish to see a memorial either at the NMA or on the Lincolnshire Coast!

Foldingwings, Re the Notts/Derbys Aircrew Association.

How'd you get 1 and 2 to make 3.:confused::confused:

foldingwings

14th Nov 2007, 16:36

Snapper,

Yes, Swinderby was operational between 1940 and 41 with 300 and 301 (Polish) Sqns and 50 (Canadian) Sqn in 1942 but, for a significant period, was closed whilst a tarmac runway was put in and thence became a Bomber Command Training Unit. It did not take part in the Bomber Offensive of 1945.

Forget,

I'm only the messenger and I have honestly quoted their responses.

So, in answer to the 'where' question, I received the following:

Could it be on an ex-bomber base? My response: Yes, but there or at a Group HQ would focus on one particular element and not on the majority. Response acknowledged as sound and sensible logic.

What about the National Memorial Arboretum? My response: That is one of the possible locations but there is a feeling amongst some that a BC Memorial needs to be individually set and in a stand-alone location to give it the impact needed.

When I think of Bomber Command, I think of Lincolnshire! Said one, to which there was a general consensus following this remark that Lincolnshire should be the home of any memorial.

What about a coastal setting? Said I and then explained the debate that we have been having here. There was considerable favour for this idea as it would have a meaning for all crews, no matter their home base, but there was concern about access to it. They understood the concept of Flamborough Head, it's proximity to Carnaby etc

What did you guys use homebound as your coastal fix? I asked. (Sorry about this but it's been said before) - Skegness Pier and that's in Lincolnshire, they chorused!

Their view on Bicester and Swinderby was 'Why? They were never operational Bomber bases!'.

So, to answer your question Forget, they would consider either the NMA or somewhere on the Lincolnshire coast as the most appropriate. In other words, some plumped for NMA and some for the Lincolnshire coast.

Foldie

pzu

14th Nov 2007, 20:24

Hi
RE Memorial 'Forgets' outline seems to be on the button for type/style but how to include the other minorities - Poles, Czechs, Free French in particular but then the Dutch, Norwegians and others???

As for location, I would suggest Lincolnshire despite being a Yorkshireman!!!
My Dad (died 2001 and yes born in Lancashire!!!) was RAFVR A/G, he ended up in Italy - 205 Group, 31/34 SAAF always reckoned he had a good war:

a)he survived

b) King George gave him a commission

Whenever he talked about times past (only rarely) and they included Warsaw '44, a place called PLOESTI (admittedly by night) and BUDA & PEST (to him two places separated by a river full of FLAK ships), he always said that he was lucky to have avoided 'the killing fields of Lincolnshire' and yes I remember that phrase whilst I was at school in the sixties;

He also on occaision used to mumble about not being entitled to the Air Crew Europe Star - but that's another story

PZU - Out of Africa

snapper41

15th Nov 2007, 08:38

Snapper I began by addressing you, but the rant at the end was for all, including myself, so nothing personal!:)
Then why put my name at the front? If you read through my posts, you'll see that we agree on much.

A bit uncalled for, Chug:sad:

Chugalug2

15th Nov 2007, 10:11

Snapper, I put your name at the front to ascribe the quote to you. I did so to emphasise my plea that far from restricting pros and cons for various locations being expressed we should seek as much input as possible. If in my eagerness to do so I offended my own strictures against gratuitous rudeness and abrasiveness then I apologise completely. I obviously lose points for clarity and layout at the very least! :)

forget

15th Nov 2007, 13:04

Now here's a bit of interesting trivia! East Kirkby is spot on the Prime Meridian. A Memorial here could be half in the East and half in the West.

That'd cover RCAF and West Indian guys one side, us in the middle, and RAAF, RNZAF and SAAF on t'other. :hmm:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/ekirkby.jpg

foldingwings

24th Nov 2007, 11:25

660 Signatures Today, now that's better but still not quite good enough - Get Signing, Chaps!

Foldie

Green Flash

24th Nov 2007, 11:34

I do like the Kirkby (prime meridian) idea, especially as it has a resident Lanc. Not on the coast, but in Lincs. Hmm.

forget

26th Nov 2007, 10:39

(I posted this on the 'Memorial' Forum but comments from here would be useful. :ok: )

Assuming that Fred and Harold are amenable this is how East Kirkby might work. And it would most certainly be in good hands - forever. Lincolnshire County Council would see to that, I’m sure.

Swinderby was looking attractive to me - but East Kirkby has now easily overtaken it. (I’ll declare a minor personal interest, Uncle Arthur flew from East Kirkby (back every time) with 630 Squadron, sat on top of a Lanc.)

How did the East Kirkby Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre begin?

This is a privately owned and run Museum and was set up by two farming Brothers, Fred and Harold Panton. It has been built up as a memorial to Bomber Command and primarily as a tribute to their eldest brother Christopher Whitton Panton; who was shot down and killed on a bomber raid over Nuremberg on 30th/31st March 1944. For a short time after the war there was interest from the Brothers to visit their Brothers grave in Germany, but their Father denied them the chance as he wanted nothing more to do with the war. Untill, in the 1970's Mr Panton called Fred over and told him to 'get off to Germany and bring me a photograph of Chrisy's grave' which of course Fred did as soon as he could. This reignited Fred's interest in the War and when NX611 came up for sale it was eventually purchased by the Brothers, brought to their land at East Kirkby. Even though they had planned to keep it only for their private collection it was suggested that they should make it into an exhibit for the public and this Museum was set up with the Lancaster and Control tower as its centre piece. The Lincolnshire Aviation Heritage Centre was then opened in 1988.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/BCM1.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/BCM2.jpg

foldingwings

6th Dec 2007, 20:41

Here's another good cause for the Bomber Boys

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/RAFWW2/

Foldie

Chugalug2

6th Dec 2007, 21:45

Well duly signed Folding Wings, but I fear this campaign is as flawed as the previous one. A campaign medal is defined by date and geography, ie exact dates for start and finish, not simply the years, and geographical extent, ie the skies over Germany for example. Operational duties could include a typist at High Wycombe and 1946, where would that relate to? If the dates had been the start and end of the European War, and the area defined as the skies of German occupied Europe it might qualify as a campaign warranting the award of a Campaign Medal. That of course would be earned only by aircrew, which I suspect is not the intention of this petition, but in any case I cannot see how it can succeed.

LegallyBlonde

16th Jan 2008, 13:40

Petition signed. 993 sigs now. Still pathetic that there is no memorial after 60 years.
I was privileged to meet some former Bomber Command air crew at Australian War Memorial, Air War History Conference in November 2005. It was held to celebrate the return to the Memorial of Lancaster G-George and the 60th anniversary of Battle of Berlin.
There were/are such brave men, most were no more than boys when they went out night after night on missions.
God bless them.

HallamPilot

16th Jan 2008, 21:05

Signed with immense pride for the bravery shown by these men.

We will remember them.

Chugalug2

10th Mar 2008, 15:34

It seems that the Bomber Command Association have put their name to the call by the Heritage Association for a National Bomber Command Memorial. It would seem that is the reason, with this going on in the background, why they showed little interest in approaches from elsewhere. No matter, this is surely great news and with their support must surely succeed. The story is at:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/09/nraf109.xml

PPRuNe Pop

10th Mar 2008, 15:58

I think Robin Gibb's involvement is good and I liked his eloquence and insistence that he will personally approach Gordon Brown. Fine! However, it was Gordon Brown was it not, who turned down the petition for a Bomber Command memorial. A petition a few hundred from PPRuNe signed. Will he overturn his own ruling? We can only hope.

But a bit of umph in the right places might get it done because it is, as Robin Gibb states, the only memorial left that needs to be fulfilled in honour of the tens of thousands of airmen who died for us.

Chugalug2

10th Mar 2008, 17:29

Totally agree with you about Robin Gibb, PP. His connection is as President of the Heritage Foundation, and as such presumably not personally related to Bomber Command. Nonetheless he says that it is morally repugnant that after more than 60 years no such memorial exists, he speaks on a video clip on the Telegraph site. A powerful message from a sector of our society that has not been historically associated with such sentiments. Similar messages from David Graham, the Chairman and Founder of the Heritage Foundation, MRAF Sir Michael Beetham GCB CBE DFC AFC (30 Ops on Lancs by the age of 21, later CAS), President Bomber Command Association and Sqn Ldr Tony Iveson DFC (75 Hours on 617 Sqn Ops against Tirpitz etc), Chairman Bomber Command Association. The last two venerable gentlemen (I hope they forgive me) both speak of their vivid memories as young men in those very dangerous times. Finally there is a contribution from someone who is an ex RAF Tornado navigator by the name of Nicol, anyone heard of him? :)
Seriously, a heavyweight and powerful launch to this campaign which I am sure will get tremendous support. This one has to succeed!

lanc474

11th Mar 2008, 00:29

Hello all.
Sorry to interupt.

I have just willingly signed the petition with sincere gratitude, respect and hope.

As regards to the siting of any such memorial (personal choice would be a wall of all names of people lost), would I be silly in suggesting the public viewing area on the A15, very close to RAF Waddington.
Waddington, if I'm correct, had aircrew of different nationalities serving there during WW2, and I believe received the first operational Lancasters.

Thank you
Lanc474

ExHerkmate

11th Mar 2008, 12:57

As an associate member of the BCA, I'm happy that this memorial is getting some traction, and have long-wondered why this dedicated group of men and women have waited so long to be memorialized by their countrymen.
As a foreigner, I'm unable to sign, but will gladly contribute to funding this monument to the crews that kept your island nation afloat during the darkest time of that dreadful war. Like the BoB, they took the fight to the enemy when no other arm could.
Please sign and encourage others to sign for the folks across the ocean that can't thank them enough for the sacrifices they made to turn back the tyranny of their time.
v/r,
ExHerkmate

Al R

15th Mar 2008, 18:02

Chugalug said: Totally agree with you about Robin Gibb, PP. His connection is as President of the Heritage Foundation, and as such presumably not personally related to Bomber Command. Nonetheless he says that it is morally repugnant that after more than 60 years no such memorial exists, he speaks on a video clip on the Telegraph site. A powerful message from a sector of our society that has not been historically associated with such sentiments. Similar messages from David Graham, the Chairman and Founder of the Heritage Foundation, MRAF Sir Michael Beetham GCB CBE DFC AFC (30 Ops on Lancs by the age of 21, later CAS), President Bomber Command Association and Sqn Ldr Tony Iveson DFC (75 Hours on 617 Sqn Ops against Tirpitz etc), Chairman Bomber Command Association. The last two venerable gentlemen (I hope they forgive me) both speak of their vivid memories as young men in those very dangerous times. Finally there is a contribution from someone who is an ex RAF Tornado navigator by the name of Nicol, anyone heard of him? :)
Seriously, a heavyweight and powerful launch to this campaign which I am sure will get tremendous support. This one has to succeed!

Great news. :D

Sport Relief got £20 million last night. Why can't we even give a fraction of that to recognise those who make events like Sport Relief possible? I am really busy right now Chuggers but if you prime me, wind me up and set me off in the right direction, I'm with you. In the meantime, Operation Bisto really works for me. ;)

Can the board staff do something to spread the word too? Perhaps a gratis Prune signature to show support and raise awareness within the board good and the great, or perhaps sell one in return for a donation? The boys are just like those who we decorate and regularly lose overseas at the moment and they MUST be remembered properly. We owe them.

Chugalug2

15th Mar 2008, 19:28

Al, thanks for your response to my post and to the newly invigorated call for a National Memorial to Bomber Command. I have e-mailed the Heritage Foundation at the address given in the Telegraph article, drawing their attention to this Forum and our involvement in previous successful campaigns. I have asked them what manner of support would be most appropriate, eg contacting MPs for Government support, spreading the word around the Military and Aviation communities, etc. It seems that BCA want HF to lead on this so it behoves us to fit in with their plan, I feel. After 63 years this must happen. Let us get behind this campaign just as we did for Hercules Foam, Mr Pun VC and Headley Court. As soon as HF come back with a plan of action I'll post it here.

Al R

16th Mar 2008, 10:46

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/03/13/do1302.xml

<<The time has surely come for a campaign medal - and also for a monument in London to these brave men.>>

Whatever you think about London being the choice for it, is neither here nor there at the moment. Preserving RAF Bicester and/or putting the memorial on the Yorkshire coast near Bridlington would be better, but for now.. no matter. If everyone here copied and pasted the link to this particular thread, and then sent it to their MP (see link below).. then things might start rocking. Also, could someone more eloquent than me come up with a covering letter, suitable and to the point, and could the Board Staff possibly see their way to doing an All Stations, this is Zero (Charlie Charlie ;):8) PM or E-mail, advising all members of this campaign? Just 10% of 60,000 demands going out to OUR MPs telling them what we want them to do would kick up one hell of a lot of notice. Also, let this bloke know too.

[email protected]

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/

*
Danny/Board Staff,

I understand that this forum has 60,000 members.. lots of whom temorarily dropped by again when the airliner at Heathrow plonked itself on the grass, if the 3 monthly traffic spike is to be believed, and then went away again. Are you able to come up with something high profile that allows you to name and list those public figures and MPs who support this campaign?? If you are unwilling/unable to assist, then this campaign stands little chance of losing the inertia that has bogged it down for decades.

The amount of page impressions and unique users seems to be flatlining anyway, so look on this as the chance to breathe some life into things and to be associated with something (nope.. at the forefront of something) that your budget lines (the advertisers!), your revenue generators (us!) and the new revenue streams (those who have never heard of Prune!) can all get excited by. I have sent suggestions privately before, but had no response, hence this public one.

Cheers. :ok:

LegallyBlonde

16th Mar 2008, 11:30

Greetings all,

Perhaps 'Flying Lawyer' could be the one to draft the covering letter, he does eloquence for a living.

Cheers

LB:ok:

Al R

16th Mar 2008, 12:03

Sounds good. I will send this off to a few people tonight. Please.. anyone, feel free to red pen it and improve it.

Dear ,

I am writing to you, to ask for your support in endorsing the campaign to gain proper recognition for those people who served in Royal Air Force Bomber Command during World War Two. Reading this letter will take 30 seconds of your time.. for many, the time that they lost was measured in a lifetime. RAF Bomber Command for much of the war, stood alone in standing up to Nazi tyranny and actively took the fight to them. Its sacrifice underpinned national resolve when we had little other good news, it shored up the potential for flagging morale, it gave us breathing space and it tied up Nazi assets which would otherwise have been employed directly against our cities, our people and our military. When much of our military re-equipped, licked its wounds and started all over again, it was RAF Bomber Command which shouldered the burden and it is shameful that recognition for it is almost non existant.

Timely and suitable recognition of these men and women is important for three reasons. Firstly, and being practical, there are not many of them left – they deserve to know quickly that we value and cherish what they and their comrades did for us. Secondly, it underlines the way that the Royal Air Force stood up against overwelming odds to bullying tyranny when many about us didn’t, and isn’t that what we’re trying to achieve globally but failing in, in places like Peterborough? And thirdly, and possibly more importantly, it is our duty to recognize those citizens of the world who came here to fight alongside us. Not to recognize these men in an appropriate manner would be an insult.

Much of Bomber Command’s strength came from Canada, New Zealand, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and all parts of the Empire and Commonwealth, plus those who stepped forward from Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Belgium, Holland, Ireland and many, many more places. These passionate, honourable and brave people all had little in common apart from the fact that they saw us as the sanctuary from where they could fight for the freedoms that we all take for granted. Just as today we are seen as a country of opportunity, fairness and compassion, then too, were we seen as the natural rallying point for the line in the sand that was not to be crossed under any circumstances. Over 50,000 of these men entered their cramped bombers on dark nights and never returned. If democracy was worth it for them to die for, what does it say about it today, if we are not even bothered to pick up a pen for them in return?

So, we need very little from you apart from your moral support and perhaps a few lines from you, extending your best wishes for a worthy cause. I look forward to hearing from you, to being able to publically count on your support and to be able to add your name to our growing list of backers. If you can do just that for us, then we shall do the rest for them. Its the least we can all do.

Yours..

Hugh Spencer

16th Mar 2008, 13:56

Thanks Al R,
I think you have covered every aspect of the subject well. It is good to see matters going forward once again and it doesn't matter who is able to kick-start things, as long as we make progress. Keep it up everyone.

Chugalug2

16th Mar 2008, 15:52

Well done Al, you have brought the pot to the boil. Thank you Prune Pop for the PM and responding so quickly to the call. The following sent to my MP via the link on Al's post:
Dear xxxx ,
May I draw your attention to the campaign for the provision of a Memorial to Bomber Command in London, launched by the Heritage Foundation (HF) backed by the Bomber Command Association (BCA)? Details are at:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/09/nraf109.xml
The Presidents of the HF (Mr Robin Gibb of the BeeGees) and the BCA (Air Marshall Sir Michael Beetham, GCB, CBE, DFC, AFC, DL) both speak on video far more eloquently than I can write. Suffice it to say that Mr Gibb has it right when he says that after more than 60 years it is morally repugnant that no such memorial yet exists, and that it is the one last piece of the jigsaw of Remembrance that has never been put in place. I believe he intends to raise this matter with Gordon Brown. I hope that you can do so as well.

Yours sincerely,

Chug

PPRuNe Pop

17th Mar 2008, 20:51

This thread will shortly be moved to Aircraft History and Nostalgia. This will give it a wider audience and hopefully contact with ex crew and the guys who made Bomber Command work. We are looking for their input. In the coming weeks I will be in touch with a couple of 617Sqdn crew I know and get their support.

A sticky will be left here with a link to AH&N and any inputs will be merged with it.

PPRuNe is going to support this campaign and I will be liasing with Al R and Chugalug2, and anyone else who feels they can give us a useful contribution and would like to join us. Simply put, to take this forward. Clearly there is no point in running counter to the new impetus that started last week by David Cameron with Frederick Forsyth and Robin Gibb, or indeed, any organisation that is currently pursuing the same aims. Al and Chugs have already got some great ideas so we can only hope that some of these efforts will enhance and enforce the principal aim.

Do not hesitate to add comments and ideas. They WILL be picked up and used if they help.

I very much hope that PPRuNe can make a difference. It won't be for the want of trying I can assure.

PPP

Chugalug2

17th Mar 2008, 22:49

Thank you PPRuNe Pop. The need for as large an audience as possible, both on PPRuNe and in the outside world for this campaign is essential, so the move to AH&N is very appropriate. I especially hope, as you say, that we can get many posts from those who were involved in the WW2 Bomber Command campaign. However, could I put a special plea to all those who have already contributed to the 10 pages, almost 200 posts, and nearly 7700 views that it has achieved already? Now is not the time to flag, in reaching out to a new and wider audience much of the ground needs to be covered again. So please follow the thread to its new home and keep contributing. We know that a lot of media coverage emanates from these pages. That is a tribute to PPRuNe and the good that it can do. This is a good cause if ever there was one, but it needs your help for it to succeed. I am sure that as Pop says, it won't be for want of trying!
Chug

411A

18th Mar 2008, 16:06

Hmmm, although from the western side of the great devide, I certainly can not understand why a present PM would somehow want to derail a memorial to one of the prime reasons that the allies prevailed during the last world war...seems to be terribly short-sighted to me.
Then again, perhaps the PM never learned about this in school.:*:rolleyes:

Chugalug2

18th Mar 2008, 23:14

This is my first posting on Aircraft History and Nostalgia, having moved with this thread from Military Aircrew. As I have been one of those involved with it from the beginning I thought that a summary of it to date might be of some help. The thread was started in October 2007 in support of a petition by Mr Don Griffiths MBE to:
“Erect a National Memorial in London to the over 55.000 brave young men who gave there lives1939-45 and played such a large part in gaining Victory in Europe,I applaurd the magnificent memorial to the'Battle of Britain'and feel that Bomber Commd.deserve the the same honour.Also appeal for public donations towards same.”
That petition is still active at: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Bomberboys/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Bomberboys/)

Since then the thread has discussed the form and location that such a memorial might take, with the emphasis on a ‘country’ rather than a London location. The discussion decamped to a purpose designed site, led by Al R to:
http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforum=bomberboys&act=idx (http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforum=bomberboys&act=idx)
Al approached the Bomber Command Association in an endeavour to ascertain their position and to get some of their members to express their thoughts and preferences on this site (we already had Hugh Spencer doing just that). Unfortunately neither aim succeeded, though we did attract another BC veteran, sprey, and our debate continued both here and on bomberboys, with preferred solutions to form being a ‘Vietnam’ style wall with every name of those who fell engraved, and to locations including Swinderby, East Kirkby, Flamborough Head and Bicester. Christmas and the New Year saw an anticipated reduction of posting which never really recovered, given the lack of interest expressed by BCA. I now suspect that this was because they were forming up the campaign launched with the Heritage Foundation on 9 March 2008 at:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/09/nraf109.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/09/nraf109.xml)
The significant point here is that the call is for a London memorial. We had envisaged a country one which, set in ‘bomber country’, would attract more support and once built and accepted only then to go for a London one. The pattern of two such memorials has been well set by those to Fighter Command on the Embankment and at Capel le Ferne. Now that BCA have expressed their wish (which is all we ever wanted to know) for the London memorial then that is what we feel should be supported. Hence the new awakening of this thread, hence its move to AH&N, where perhaps it should have been all along! I hope this hasn’t been too much of an illustrated lecture on the last 6 months. With luck it will avoid the need to plough through the 200 odd postings but still have a feel for the thread. Anyway it’s a new start for the old aim; to ensure that 63 years on a National Memorial to Bomber Command and to the 55,573 men who gave their lives to ensure Victory and the freedoms that we enjoy today is finally provided by this Nation.

Al R

19th Mar 2008, 19:44

Cheers Chuggers, that Bisto option is still a cracker if a plan and has to be followed through imho. Because if we don't bother with it, soon.. we'll have lost it forever and in 100 years, they'll be saying 'Why on earth didn't they save it?'.

This might be of interest to some.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/north_yorkshire/7305689.stm

"The bravery of World War Two bomber crews has been praised by Sir David Jason as he opened a new RAF exhibition in North Yorkshire. The actor paid tribute to servicemen as he unveiled the display at Yorkshire Air Museum near York, which highlights the contribution of RAF crews in war."

airnzuniformlover

27th Mar 2008, 23:11

My grandfather who is still alive was in bomber command in world war 2 and as he is coming towards the end of his life he is starting to talk about his experiences a lot more. Its quite incredible stuff - he said he never expected to live but looking back it really defined his life. They were all so brave those lovely boys.

Al R

29th Mar 2008, 14:22

Brave indeed. It took 60 years to get 'just' regional recognition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/5281590.stm

I'm not sure if the official line is based in apathy or concern to be involved with something as politically potentially explosive as supporting the boys. The whole campaign of course, revolves around Dresden which was possibly, the first instance of public unease at a military action, and drew some criticism from the very top. It is useful to read the Harris response to Churchill's words of caution;

"I ... assume that the view under consideration is something like this: no doubt in the past we were justified in attacking German cities. But to do so was always repugnant and now that the Germans are beaten anyway we can properly abstain from proceeding with these attacks. This is a doctrine to which I could never subscribe.

Attacks on cities like any other act of war are intolerable unless they are strategically justified. But they are strategically justified in so far as they tend to shorten the war and preserve the lives of Allied soldiers. To my mind we have absolutely no right to give them up unless it is certain that they will not have this effect. I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier.

The feeling, such as there is, over Dresden, could be easily explained by any psychiatrist. It is connected with German bands and Dresden shepherdesses. Actually Dresden was a mass of munitions works, an intact government centre, and a key transportation point to the East. It is now none of these things."

What has changed, is the idea that the life of one British serviceman is worth more than entire enemy cities - the bombing campaign against Serbia confirmed that, and that reflection isn't a bad thing. But what stinks, is that blinkered tofu munchers like Alan Russell see fit to purge themselves by raising a quarter of a million quid to rebuild a part of Dresden, but don't give a damn about those who died to provide the likes of him with the freedom to express himself as he saw fit.

Chugalug2

29th Mar 2008, 15:28

Anzul, you have the nub of it when you talk of boys. Your Grandfather and his comrades were essentially boys, and 55,573 of them remained just that, for “They shall grow not old as we that are left grow old.”
Your post reminds us of what an international effort the WW2 Bomber Command campaign was involving the British, Dominions, Colonies, enslaved nations of Europe, and others who were prepared to volunteer, for all were volunteers, to risk their lives in hitting back at and subduing the Nazi tyranny in order to ensure ultimate victory. They were, and still are, the ones who did, in contrast to the ones who merely talked and are still chattering to this day. We will always have those amongst us who will question Dresden, want to know which way the Belgrano was steaming when sunk, query the need to use atomic bombs to finally bring to an end the slaughter-house of WW2 in which some 50 million died. Their philosophy seems to be that wars are better lost if they cannot be fought in what they would perceive to be a morally up right way. Well… NEWSFLASH! All War is Immoral, and the only moral approach to war is to finish it ASAP. That was Harris’s point that Al R reminds us of above. 63 years later is it not time to accede to his point and pay proper and full tribute to those very brave young men who paved the way to Victory?
We have memorials to Women in WW2, to the Dominions, even to Animals who died. There is something very British, and not in the nicest sense, that there is no National Memorial to 55,573 Bomber Command Aircrew, out of a total strength of some 125,000, who died that we should prevail. This is not just a good thing to do, it is the right thing to do, and we should feel shame that it is yet to be done.

S'land

29th Mar 2008, 21:01

Chugalug2:

Very well put. :D

Chugalug2

1st Apr 2008, 20:16

Thanks S'land, it seems that you, Hugh Spencer, PPRuNe Pop, PKPF68-78, 411A, anzul, Al R and I share common ground on this. Postings prior refer to the thread’s previous existence on Military Aircrew. Now I suspect that many more share our sentiments, but if they don't post we can't be sure. With the obstruction that caused previous attempts to founder still possible, nothing can be taken for granted. Today is the 90th anniversary of the Founding of the RAF. If there was one premise on which it was based it was the fervent belief in an Independent Air Force and the effectiveness of Strategic Bombing. That belief was nurtured in the lean inter war years and came to fruition in the Strategic Bombing Offensive from the first day to the last of Bomber Command's Campaign in WW2. Of course the inevitable progress forecast by its proponents turned out instead to be a bloody and costly business for friend and foe alike. All the more reason to give thanks for the selfless sacrifice of those who paid that cost. The cream of a generation was snuffed out but, as with their fathers before them, it paved the way to victory. That victory liberated Europe as well as saving this country from becoming the vassal of an arbitrary and evil dictatorship. There was nothing inevitable in that victory right up to the last day, hence the driven duty to risk their lives night after night on what emerged as almost a 50/50 chance of surviving when those still in training are stripped out of the final figures. We need to acknowledge this while the survivors are still with us. We need to acknowledge this as a nation. We need to acknowledge this with a National Memorial. We need to acknowledge this by thinking this through for ourselves rather than regurgitating someone else's thoughts garnered from 'Peace Studies'. If my persistence irritates then upbraid me or ignore me as you wish, I only ask that you do not ignore this issue, for upon it rests what residual honour this country has, or hasn't. Please sign the petition. Please post your thoughts.

pilot's daughter

7th Apr 2008, 17:54

I have signed the petition for a memorial to Bomber Command and would like to draw attention to a petition I have just put online to obtain a campaign medal for Bomber Command. Land Army, Bevan Boys etc have their recognition (and rightly so) but nothing is forthcoming for the brave lads at the very point of sharp end. They were ALL volunteers and 55,000 lost their lives. There are still 30,000 of these men still alive (sadly not my father, a double DFC, who died last year aged 87) and deserve recognition before it is too late. Please sign - here is the link: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ForgottenRAF/ (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ForgottenRAF/). Thanks.

Chugalug2

14th Apr 2008, 19:52

pilot's daughter, first a very warm welcome to PPRuNe and to this thread. I am sorry that your post has sat on the Aviation, History and Nostalgia Forum for a week without an answer. Given that you tell us that you are the proud (clearly!) daughter of a double DFC Bomber Command Pilot of WW2 one would have hoped for some interest in what you have to say. Perhaps if you had posted pictures of your father's aircraft or airfield you would have evinced a response (heavy irony there guys!). If it is of any consolation I too have been almost equally unable to get any dialogue going here. I deliberately withheld answering you until now in the forlorn hope that someone else might do so. Some hope! Let me at least thank you for supporting the petition behind this thread and in return express my support for your own efforts to get a campaign medal for those who served in Bomber Command in WW2. The preamble to your petition calls for a medal to be awarded to all members of Bomber Command, whereas the detail speaks of the 55,000 aircrew who died. If you want a campaign medal for BC aircrew who flew offensive operations in Europe in WW2 then I agree entirely. A 'Bomber Command' medal (as I believe Harris wanted) is entirely different and would not be compatible with UK practice. A campaign has to be defined by time (no problem) and place, in this case the skies between the bases and the enemy heartland. thus all but aircrew would be excluded. It would be of interest to know if your father expressed his feelings about that. This site (though not this forum!) has discussed this topic before, in support of a similar petition that was rejected by the PM's office, as was every such call since the war. No matter, as you remind us many thousands of these brave men are still with us and we must keep trying on their behalf. Like your father I feel anger that such heroism and dedication to duty has been held in such low regard since 1945 as something best forgotten. Such attitudes are a comment on those who hold them rather than the remarkable brave young (so young) men who frustrated the 'lights of perverted science' that would otherwise have enabled the Nazi War Machine to prevail, by going out night after night until they in turn joined the 55,000 that 'grow not old'. Give them their National Memorial and give them a Campaign Medal!

Al R

15th Apr 2008, 07:50

Welcome PD, I'd echo Chugger's sentiments but possibly in not such an old crachety way (he's waiting for his new zimmer you know and the cabin fever has set in... :ok:).

I have come to the conclusion that those No10 petitions are a retrostep. The g'ment received millions of motorists registering dismay about Pay as you Drive and they simply decided to forge ahead. Conversely, if a petition receives little support (I have signed to yours by the way, with a slight tweak), the g'ment is justified in ignoring it. Its opium for the masses, thats all. But what to do? As Chuggers implies, you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink. This thread here, is a little like the curtains in the spare bedroom - we see them, but do we ever actually notice and remember them?

I have spoken with Chuggers about this. I am of a definite opinion as to how best proceed (Chuggers.. I haven't forgotten your e-mail - I like to consider a response first!), and I would love to have time on my hands or the means to be able to focus properly on this, but my mortgage company continues to conspire against me. Your post has my full agreement and your dad has my admiration, respect and my gratitude.

I just wish I had the time right now, to do the rhetoric justice.

Al.

PPRuNe Pop

15th Apr 2008, 17:33

Chuggers and Al,

Couldn't agree more. I have been otherwise engaged but am steadily getting more time to this. I agree about the petitions too. They get Brownie points for setting it up and more when they answer i.e the road charges, and then proceed with two fingers and forget that 2m people don't like it. Why some of these people think they know what we want is beyond me. They don't.

However, this week gave me another setback when a brother of mine died on Wednesday of last week. The funeral is this coming Friday but when the weekend gets out of the way I will be ready to see what we can do.

PPP

Al R

15th Apr 2008, 19:08

Pop,

This is going to sound crass (I don't mean it to), but a prog on TV tonight revolved around fraternal loss and it made me think about my little bro (still around). I am very sorry for your loss.

Chugalug2

15th Apr 2008, 19:29

PPRuNe Pop, so sorry to hear of your loss. I can only echo Al's sentiments. As to domestic issues here at PPRuNe, there's plenty of time for those. They and we can wait, you have other more important things to occupy yourself with. I hope that there are others close to you more able than we are to console you. My sincerest condolences.
Chug

PPRuNe Pop

16th Apr 2008, 08:34

Thanks guys, I appreciate your kind thoughts. Most kind of you.

PPP

Millski

22nd Apr 2008, 03:07

One of my best mates farther was with Bomber command, Sqd leader Colin Jackson DFC Flew Halifax's, he is 94 and still very much alive.
He flew with Special forces he is a bloody good bloke, and made me laugh when he told me the story that on arrivng back to Melbourne Aus Qantas offered him a job and he asked what they wanted him to fly and he said I not flying something that small. He never flew again.
Cheers Millski :rolleyes:

Al R

25th Apr 2008, 22:38

An interesting read.

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/daily-feature/Honour-the-brave.3925149.jp

Chugalug2

26th Apr 2008, 06:55

Impressive chap, Derrick Crampin, but then again he hails from an impressive generation. It should not be up to an 84 year old to fight for the recognition that the Bomber Offensive so richly deserves. It should be a given, he and his colleagues both living and dead should be venerated by we of later generations that owe everything to them. That they're not, and he has to plead his case is not a comment on him, his mates, Harris or Bomber Command but on us. Shame on us that 63 years after the event such enormous sacrifice and courage is sneered at by those faced with no more danger than crossing the road. We are not worthy of such men. Perhaps they should not have bothered? Nicht Wahr? Give them their Bomber Campaign Medal, give them a Bomber Command National Memorial, end this national shame!

bc_heritage

26th Apr 2008, 19:26

Yes, a very interesting article Al, and yes indeed Chuggers to everything you have said! A National Memorial and Medal should have been done years ago. I have to say, the medal issue has been touched upon in the Flypast Historic Aviation Forum on a former attempt.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65713&highlight=medal

A Bomber Command Medal is a fantastic idea, but I overwhelming believe a National Memorial in London and in the country, like the Fighter Boys have, is a very real must, and is so, so long overdue.

bc_heritage

27th Apr 2008, 09:17

Sorry, I seem to be on a role.....Having a look at the past posts here, there seemed to be much excitement about a BC Memorial somewhere peaceful in a country setting, and whatever happens in London, don't let the want for a second Memorial in a secluded part of our wonderful countryside be forgotten. Fighter Command have this set up, so it is a requirement for Bomber Command! Get out there, and get doing! It is not good sitting on ones hands, you have to fight for the cause these days, and it takes time, patience and much personal sacrifice, but it is always for the greater cause, therefore ALWAYS worth the effort. A Catalayst is what you all are!

There are many very knowledgeable people doing things in there bedrooms and garden sheds,....but work needs to be focused on the GREATER CAUSE, as well as the personal types of FANTASTIC physical and research projects that are going on out there. Repeating myself constantly, those of RAF Bomber Command must have the recognition they very rightly deserve. It is up to all as enthusiatic individuals, whether we belong to a Group or Association, or doing something in the shed, it is to shout for the cause NOW, instead of whinging at each other about this and that. There is only one way, and that is TO GET OUT THERE AND DO!! Forget the crap, get organised and get doing.

Sunday Morning Rant over...head down and I'm running! :-)

Chugalug2

27th Apr 2008, 16:50

Well said, BCH! I am afraid I have already been brought to task for castigating the seeming indifference to this thread, but I am entirely in agreement with you and so will continue unabashed. This medium is very powerful, and this site has achieved much to be proud of. Mr Pun VC allowed into this country thanks to a 180 by HMG, SSAFFA house serving families of patients at Headley Court allowed after 180 by planning committee, ESF fitted to RAF Hercules fleet after 180 by MOD after 40 years without, etc. Those 180's didn't happen by chance but by continuous unrelenting pressure, much of it from PPRuNe. Admittedly those campaigns ran on another forum to this, but if the provision of a national Bomber Command Memorial isn't the business of a Forum based on Aviation history, I can't think what is. The reverse side of this medium is a tendency for it to become an end in itself. The constant exchange of data, pictures, stories etc is fine, but if the subject of all that posting, the physical reminders of the Heritage itself, are slipping away by neglect then eventually the data, pictures and stories will follow suit. We surely owe it to the past generation that made this sacrifice, and the future ones to remind them of it, to preserve existing Heritage of this mighty struggle and to place within it a focus of Remembrance to those who died that we might live in Freedom.

S'land

27th Apr 2008, 21:49

Chugalug2:

I could not agree more with what you say. However, since moving over to the history and nostalgia forum the thread seems to have lost a bit of momentum. I don't know what can be done to get more support for a memorial for Bomber Command. I have sent the link for the petition to everyone I know who is eligible to sign. One or two have come back to say that they have signed, another brought up the old bullwash about Dresden while the rest seem totally indifferent.

If we are not careful this apathy will kill the project.

For me this is not a case of having relatives who were in Bomber Command, traditionally all of my family have been Army, with only one uncle going into the RN and one into the RAF (Fighters). For me it is a point of moral justice that we should have a memorial.

I have the freedom to sit in a foreign country and live in peace because of what these boys did. My generation and the younger generations have the freedoms that we have only because of the sacrifice that my parent's generation made. Why should we not honour a significant part of that generation?

Chugalug2

28th Apr 2008, 09:51

S'land once again we are of one mind it would seem. Like you I have no personal connections with Bomber Command, my father died of having been a POW of the Japanese for over three years. He was a bombardier in a TA RA LAA battery, though if he ever managed to fire his bofors in anger before they were overrun and captured in Java I doubt it. So other than my own service in the RAF (MRT Hastings and Hercules) nothing to do with Bomber Command. So what? As you say this is a clear issue of right and wrong. Like all such issues people should have a clear moral view of their own take on this. Its no good having a vague feeling that 'carpet bombing' that kills innocent civilians is wrong, war is wrong.. endex! If these men had not gone out night after night Speer could have ramped up production to overwhelm the Red Army at Kursk in not only quality but quantity. Goering could have released the 1,000,000 men of the Luftwaffe fighter squadrons and flak batteries to attain air superiority on the Eastern and Western fronts. The former would have turned back the Red Army, the latter would have meant that Eisenhower's prepared speech following a repulse on D-Day would have been aired by the BBC. Whatever the yabooh about tactics, targets, techniques, etc, 55,573 men should be properly commemorated, and the duty done by 125,000 properly acknowledged. The first wth a memorial, the second with a medal. That some thin lipped Socialist politicians and academics thought different in 1945 is a comment on them. They did not fly the missions!
As to this Forum and this Thread, that is for our Moderators to decide. I would say this though that if it is removed from this forum for no other reason than the seeming indifference to it, then that in turn is a comment on those who post here (or rather don't!). Harsh, cruel? In all honesty I don't think that we know the meaning of the words these days!

Al R

28th Apr 2008, 10:51

I've read the most recent few threads with interest. If I might, let me address the issue of inertia setting in.

There is little point in campaigning for a stone plinth. Thats easily gettable. What HAS to be considered first, is where this project is going to be in 100 or 200 years. In other words, what is the vision for it.. the truly grand vision, and where does its role (not only that of BC) lie? What's the point in placing a beautiful memorial somewhere now, if in 40 years time, it'll be looked upon with something as prosaic and as detached that we might look upon something designed to mark the Boer War, or fighting in The Crimea? It'll just be another chunk of stone. We have the advantage of seeing where putting up a memorial for its own sake runs into problems, and we go down that route at our peril. If we aren't mindful of it, then the act of remembering and giving thanks to the 55,000 men and women will be just a munch sized, politically acceptable interlude which might make us feel worthy now, but which might not best serve the big interests.

I don't mean that to be snidy and I know I'm not even a Johnny come Lately, just a sideliner.. so please don't think that, and while I waffle away, I know that out there, people are doing REAL stuff. It might be that I'm not aware of the whole picture.. but I certainly think that the memorial itself is far more achievable, if its done as a means to an end, and not the end itself. I do think that Operation Bisto is a fight worth fighting, and I doff my cap to the lads who are currently fighting that particular one. Civvies too, and I don't mean that in anything other than awe - WHAT an effort (and why can't the military community do something???)! But if you aim high, and fall short, you will achieve something greater than you might otherwise do. My vision for Bicester would include a central facility for space cadets to attend camps all year round.. somewhere for all children to learn (perhaps in collusion with other scouting and youth movements). There would be a halfway house capability for airmen and women heading into civvy street, there would be scope for fabricators to learn skills normally associated with aviation and which would be revenue generating entities in their own rights, there could be scope for allowing all manner of service derived and service based activities, relevent to the needs of tomorrow's servicemen and yesterday's too. I can't think of a finer legacy to remember the 55,000 by.

Yes, its a mind boggling task, and one which needs fulltime effort and massive backing. But the will can be found, and at the moment, the cause will never have better public support or a more realistic mandate from politicians and business and industry. If 558 can take to the skies, why not Bisto (metaphorically of course :E )?

Chugalug2

28th Apr 2008, 14:51

A great vision Al, and one that I share wholeheartedly, with one proviso. The subject of this thread, the Bomber Command Memorial, should be to the 55573 aircrew who steadfastly did their dangerous duty until they perished doing it, and would be well sited at Bicester where many of them started out on their too brief careers. That Bicester as a whole should act as a standing tribute to the aircrew and all those who backed them up, and in doing so often perished in Air Raids, Bomb Dumps, RTAs etc, from the Merchant Sailors who faced a cruel sea and an even crueler enemy, to the factory workers, ground crews, planners etc, is a wonderful concept and an inspiration. I hope BCH share the notion of Bicester not only celebrating BC's heritage but serving as a memorial to all who did their duty, often unto death, in that gigantic struggle that was the Bomber Offensive 1939/45. This fuses the memorial and the station into a single purpose, Remembrance. God's teeth and all this from a Rock! I need to sit down and absorb the implications. So many prejudices to confront, so much to learn, so little time, it's all so overwhelming. So I'll just say way to go Al! :ok:

forget

28th Apr 2008, 15:03

I may have said this before. Locating a Bomber Command Memorial at Bicester is akin to a Coastal Command Memorial in Birmingham. There's only one logical county for a Bomber Command Memorial and it's ........ think ..................... right first time.

S'land

28th Apr 2008, 15:32

forget:

As a native of the White Rose county I agree that a BC memorial would be best sited in Yorkshire :rolleyes:.

Joking aside, it is important that there is a BC memorial to the fallen. If Bicester is chosen I, for one, do not see a problem. At least Bicester had a connection to Bomber Command.

If Al's proposal for a grander scheme bear fruit, all well and good. If the "only" thing that we end up with is a BC memorial that is also well and good.

The real point is that time is running out. WWII ended 63 years ago. The boys who flew in BC at that time are all in their very late seventies or eighties. How much longer do we have to wait to honour them?

If we leave it to long there will be none of them left and any memorial will be an empty gesture. Something has to happen soon.

bc_heritage

30th Apr 2008, 21:12

Being a Co-Founder of Bomber Command Heritage, therefore the following may seem like ignorance to some.

Lincolnshire or Yorkshire for obvious reasons are on the main hitlist in regards for doing anything in relation to RAF Bomber Command of the WWII period.

However, a suitable place should not be tainted by facts like geographical location, special ops, largest amount of ordinance dropped by Sqdns, biggest aircraft, or biggest runways. It is about future generations remembering those of the Command in the best possible environment, when we ourselves are no longer on this Earth.

How many of you Guys have been to Runnymeade? How does it feel?, more importantly what do you feel? The atmosphere and surrounds are real important, not so much whether a Lanc or Blenheim operated close by....

Do not misunderstand my mumblings. Nothing wrong with a Memorial in Lincs, IF the right location was found, FANTASTIC!!!!! But where? I do think there is a case of fixating on that blue sky, without checking ones focus on the horizon, every now and then.

Bomber Command personnel not only operated in Lancs from Lincs!

Before I get slammed, my Great Uncle (Lanc Skipper, trained under the Arnold Scheme in the U.S) and crew last had their feet on the ground 8 March 1945 at RAF Skellingthorpe, Lincolnshire. They took off at 1743 hours. Approximately five hours later they were dead, bar the rear gunner. The crew had been together for six months, flying together from Sept 1944. They had come to the end of their first Tour as a "TEAM", but never came back. The oldest of the crew was thirty five...I myself am thirty-seven, non-military...and my golly, did I have a lump in my throat when I laid wreaths to these Men, and for other relatives that had contacted us from RAF 61 Squadron. I have utter respect and grattitude for all those Men, and this of course extends to those that are thankfully still with us today. Like most relatives with an interest, I am of course drawn to that place.

A National Memorial is A MUST, and those here have the enthusiasm to make it REALITY, so what are you waiting for? :ugh: ;)

Chugalug2

1st May 2008, 11:22

BCH, I absolutely concur with your sentiments. Indeed Al's inspired vision has surely moved things to a higher plane, for if as he proposes Bicester is the focus of Remembrance to the entire Bombing Offensive effort, where could you possibly better place such a memorial geographically? Liverpool for the Convoys, Crewe for the Railway Workers, Scores of Aircraft Factories, Scores of Munitions Factories, Empire Flying Training Schools for Pilots, Others for Navs, Engs, Gunners etc, the OTUs, the HCUs, the Operational Stations, Group and Command HQs, MCUs for AirSea Rescue...the list is indeed endless. It seems to me that a well preserved OTU station is as good a location as any, and one so centrally placed as Bicester in that web described above particularly so. The BC Memorial placed there, dedicated to the Aircrews, would emphasise the point that the crews were the Spearhead of this attack, but the Shaft of the Spear were those "Millions like Us" without whom there would have been no Bomber Command and no Bomber Offensive. It was a point recognised by the crews at the time, some of whom would visit the Factories etc to encourage maximum effort. This was a "Peoples War" and no other effort illustrated that so well as this one. Al's vision captures that basic truth and encourages us to broaden our horizons to see woods instead of trees. I "commend it to the house"!

bc_heritage

1st May 2008, 12:06

Hi Chuggers! Yes, I beleive Bicester would be of course be the best place, indeed for those reasons that have been highlighted by yourself and Al! I start "going off on one" I will no doubt upset many people, and that would not be right for me to do.:)

Being involved of course with the "Bicester Vision", I don't want to offend those like Hugh, Foldie, etc who agree to disagree. I just want people to go to these places they are suggesting, and do the groundwork, then they, I am sure, will understand.

Bicester, arguably of course, would be the perfect place. This "Heritage Centre" is not some whimisical idea, - we've been working flaming hard, and continue to do so! BOTH ARE DO-ABLE, and Bicester really is the place to make it all happen! :)

If we (BCH) can do a bit of a "Show & Tell" this Summer to the likes of those "not so keen", the place may open the eyes to that vision of Al's, that we (BCH) share 110%. I don't want to harp on about the "Bisto Project" here, as there is a thread elsewhere, but the possibilities are quite fantastic.

Being politally incorrect, DO NOT shove the Memorial in the middle of what was agricultural land, that is being returned to agricultural land, or with industrial units changing the vistas that are currently on such aerodromes.

Somewhere all year with easy access is a must, unless you have a use of a 'copter, wet weather gear and a portable loo!

Who wants a National Memorial in a Farmer's Field or Industrial Estate? Well, I don't and nor do others.

permFO

3rd May 2008, 08:39

A slight change of topic but the Australian War Memorial has a Bomber Command Memorial on the grounds near the Lone Pine memorial. its a symbol of a searchlight with outlines of air and ground crew.

forget

3rd May 2008, 08:50

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/RAAFBomber.jpg

S'land

3rd May 2008, 14:02

Simple and effective. A great shame that the Australian government has more b*$$s than any of our governments in the last sixty odd years. We really are behind in this.

forget

3rd May 2008, 14:15

It's been a while since I posted my idea. Wouldn't hurt to see it again. Built, of course, to tolerate the Lincolnshire weather. ;)

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/bcmem.jpg

bc_heritage

3rd May 2008, 18:27

Thanks for that Forget and PermFO. Nice bit of artwork Forget, wherever it goes in my book! :ok:The fact is it needs to be done, and you chaps really have the enthusiasm to get things going.

Chaps, Here is what the Nanton Lancaster Museum has done for the Canadians of Bomber Command, absolutely FANTASTIC..also note ten thousand names on that Memorial.
See below text on the page in regards to the Memorial:-

"To be listed on the Memorial the individual must have been killed while serving with a Bomber Command (http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/command.html) Squadron or while training with a Bomber Command Operational Training Unit or a Bomber Command Heavy Conversion Unit. Individuals are not included if they died in off-duty accidents or due to illness. Individuals included on the Memorial must have been Canadian citizens serving with Bomber Command in any air force or non-Canadians serving with Bomber Command while wearing the uniform of the Royal Canadian Air Force." - Extract from Nanton Lancaster Society website.

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/memorialgranite.html

And this is what GREAT BRITAIN has done for the 55,xxx of the Commonwealth...not a very good show..."bloody poor show" if I may be granted to use such a profanity on an open forum! :eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/5291094.stm

Sorry, have to pop this in there too...

http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/Bicester.html

Before anyone says "AARGH! No concrete, no good!", the 617 Sqdn Boys never needed the hard stuff at Scampton to go get those dams...;)

So, from that, this Country is missing a couple of very required Memorials, 1) London Memorial 2) Country Memorial.

Al R

4th May 2008, 10:38

Robin Gibb talking about the campaign.. clicky clicky (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/ttv/news.jhtml?bcpid=1365140777&bclid=1364242969&bctid=1423838578) .

I understand he might be campaigning on the BBC sometime this week. Can anyone confirm, and if so, offer any details?

Yet more clicky clicky (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/ttv/news.jhtml?bcpid=1365140777&bclid=1364242969&bctid=1423838578) and even MORE (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/ttv/news.jhtml?bcpid=1365140777&bclid=1364242969&bctid=1423838578) clicky clicky from John Nichol and Sqn Ldr Tony Iveson DFC.

Chugalug2

5th May 2008, 07:55

Hi Forget, good to have your input as ever. Of the two pics posted by you I much prefer the traditional wall bearing names, insignia, etc and attendant bronze figures to the "modern art" approach of metallic searchlight cones or whatever. The latter would soon look dated after some 10-20 years I fear, whereas a "traditional memorial" will still look the part in 100-200 years. The importance of this campaign to our freedoms will be better appreciated then I suspect than it is now. Now if we could just agree on its siting....:)

BCH, its good to learn that things are moving apace at Bicester. Whatever the outcome to the subject of this thread, I am sure all wish you well in your efforts to retain that unique and historic RAF station as a place of Remembrance and retention of the Heritage of the Bomber Campaign.

Al, a timely reminder in the videos released at the launch of the Bomber Command Memorial campaign some weeks ago by Robin Gibb, the Heritage Foundation and the Bomber Command Association. If he is indeed renewing that campaign this week then hopefully it is to mark the end of the preparatory phase and to launch the Campaign proper for a London memorial. If that is so then all the support it gathers will eventually assist the provision of a "country" memorial, the subject of this thread. That now seems to be morphing into something larger, a recognition of the gigantic national effort and sacrifice made in those dark years to secure freedom and victory, in which a Bomber Command Memorial to its fallen aircrew would take centre place. If that be so then I for one think that the wait would have been worthwhile, to get this right. What this nation did for the world more than 60 years ago was surely our Finest Hour?

bc_heritage

7th May 2008, 11:21

...saw Mr Gibb on the Beeb this morning! Whether there was a longer peice don't know as had to rush off to work! Keep an eye on the news today peeps!:ok:

Chugalug2

8th May 2008, 08:39

Thanks for the Heads Up, BCH. Was this the piece that you saw?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7388306.stm
The campaign (for the London Memorial) is fortunate indeed to have someone so committed and influential as Robin Gibb. Let us hope that he succeeds, and moves on to secure a Memorial outside London when that one is built.

S'land

8th May 2008, 10:21

Saw the video this morning while checking the news. A well balanced piece, I thought.

It was good to see that they also showed someone who was a "recipient" of the bombs and what they thought about the bombing campaign.

One thought that did cross my mind is that it looks as though this smallish town in Holland has a memorial to, at least some of, the Bomber Crews.

Is the UK the only country not to have one? Our lack of caring really does show us up as a nation.

forget

8th May 2008, 10:34

Is the UK the only country not to have one? Our lack of caring really does show us up as a nation.

Of the participants, apparently so. So where would you place this compact but impressive Bomber Command Memorial? Answer at bottom. Clue. The first Lancaster Squadron carried the Country's name.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/Picture1.jpg

(Ex) Rhodesia.

http://www.rhodesiana.com/archives/documents/Rhodesian_Air_Crew_Memorial.pdf

PS I've got this completely wrong! The Memorial is in France! I'll leave it here as a reminder to be more careful in future. :\

Roland Pulfrew

8th May 2008, 21:04

I saw Robin Gibb speaking on the news regarding the memorial and I still think that the most appropriate location remains London.

There will always be arguments about Lincs or Yorks (or Cambs or Beds). If it is a national memorial then it should be located somewhere that the largest number of people can see it and visit it and I am sorry but that is London. After all the Vietnam Memorial is in DC, not stuck on some now closed airbase or army post in the middle of nowhere.

Still think that proposed design is spot on though.

Chugalug2

9th May 2008, 09:32

After all the Vietnam Memorial is in DC, not stuck on some now closed airbase or army post in the middle of nowhere.

Good point Roland, and if Heritage Foundation/BCA's proposal is indeed for a Vietnam type Memorial, ie a wall with some 55,573 names, unit badges, etc inscribed on it, I would agree. But if they have in mind something more "conceptual", matching the Fighter Command Memorial on the Embankment, then as with the "country" FC Memorial at Capel le Ferne there will be a need for a more substantial memorial bearing those names elsewhere. If that is a closed airbase in the middle of nowhere then again I agree with your sentiments. However if that same airbase is easily accessible and is itself entirely dedicated to telling every aspect of the story of this formidable and dangerous British effort of WWII as an act of Remembrance, preserving and displaying the artifacts that are truly part of our National Heritage, then the memorial would be the focus of that Remembrance. That is the aim of Bomber Command Heritage, that is RAF Bicester.

S'land

9th May 2008, 10:04

Was just over in the Military Forum and saw that another member of Bomber Command has passed away.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=326140

Hugh Spencer

12th May 2008, 16:06

I was very pleased when I received my BCA Newsletter today that matters are taking great strides to get this campaign going. I was disappointed last year when my personal approach to the BCA for its support for a memorial was treated to a lukewarm response but let's put that behind us and pursue our objective in the coming months. We're up and running and nothing should stop us.

Chugalug2

12th May 2008, 21:11

Hugh, how good to see you posting here, and how right you are. BCA and HF need maximum support to see the Bomber Command Memorial in London become a reality. It's been a long and utterly unjustifiable wait for you and your colleagues to see this happen, but happen it will, and soon we hope!

S'land

22nd Jun 2008, 11:47

Everything seems to have gone very quiet on the memorial front. Has anyone any idea of what is happening?

bc_heritage

22nd Jun 2008, 16:17

...from the Heritage Foundation website it seems like July 13 Mr Gibb will be doing a a Concert for the Bomber Boys, donations to the B.C.A

Hope that is of use.:)

Best regards

Tony

BOMBER COMMAND HERITAGE
http://www.bc-heritage.org (http://www.bc-heritage.org/)
"...our journey together."

S'land

22nd Jun 2008, 19:16

Thanks bc_heritage. It seems that it is not as quiet as I thought.

Chugalug2

23rd Jun 2008, 13:52

It’s the latest controversial artwork from Antony Gormley, the Turner prizewinner.
People who aspire to high art need only climb on a Trafalgar Square plinth and pose as a sculpture. They will take it in turns for an hour, to do, literally, whatever takes their fancy. He gets the £300,000 fee from the public purse for their 60 minutes of fame.
The artist, who specialises in taking moulds from his body, was confirmed this morning as the next recipient of the commission to fill the empty 1840s plinth in London’s historic square.

Full story at:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/visual_arts/article4197405.ece?token=null&offset=0

So much for the campaign for the plinth to be occupied by a statue of the second military leader to save this country from invasion, Sir Keith Park. I fear that the apparatchiks that devised this weaze will scupper the London BC memorial proposed by HF unless public support for it takes off. The other moves to create a Bomber Command Heritage Centre at RAF Bicester continue apace, with the possibility of a National BC Memorial co-located there. The announced MOD plan is to dispose of the site for development this year. I think that would be a national tragedy. The Berliners are currently trying to save Tempelhof as a world heritage site (see thread on this forum). We should be just as eager to save Bicester to remember the sacrifice of 55573 brave men and the contribution of Bomber Command to victory over the Nazi tyranny.

Chugalug2

25th Jun 2008, 21:13

On a rather more positive note the Times-on-line piece at:
The bomber crews who were tested at Lord’s and selected to fight for England - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4133072.ece)
reports that the joint BCA/HF proposal for the London Memorial is for it to be placed at Lords, site of the No.1 Aircrew Reception Centre where many of the crews began the greatest and most dangerous journey of their lives. If an appropriate setting is available there (in Regent's Park?) this would seem to be a very happy choice. For the memorial needs to remember the crews primarily as against the campaign that they conducted. Let us hope that this time it becomes a reality.

Hugh Spencer

26th Jun 2008, 12:37

If the Memorial has to be in the London area this could be the best place to represent BC aircrew. Thousands went through the Aircrew Reception Centre at St John's Wood, billeted in requisitioned houses for about 3 weeks, marching between Lords and Regents Park for kitting out, vaccinations, being told about the 'naughty women' who might want to infect us, etc. Can I just add that a memorial bearing the names of 55,000 heroes with the aircrew figures standing as if to board the aircraft is my preference. Now let us make sure everybody in the UK knows about the plans.

forget

26th Jun 2008, 12:48

Excellent taste Hugh; excellent taste. :ok:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/bcmem.jpg

K.Whyjelly

1st Jul 2008, 10:41

Discussion today (01/07) on the Jeremy Vine Show on BBC Radio 2 after 1330hrs about the growing calls for fitting memorial to the 55000 aircrew who gave up their lives during the conflict 1939-45.

Expect the usual bleeding hearts with a 21st Century viewpoint of history besmirching their memory and trying to sully the actions of Bomber Command long after the event.......................:*

Chugalug2

2nd Jul 2008, 21:45

Thanks for that KW, unfortunately I missed your post and the prog. Would it be possible to post a resume of what was said? This subject is starting to take hold at last in the Nations conscience. Of course there will be pros and cons but overall it must be a welcome trend I feel.
OK, thanks to our friends at BCH and the timewarp of BBCi I've just caught the discussion at:
BBC iPlayer - Radio (http://www.bbc.co.uk:80/radio/aod/mainframe.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio2_aod.shtml?radio2/r2_vine_tue)
and immediately fast forward in 15min intervals and one 5min one to 1hr35mins into the prog. Usual Auntie Beeb's Moral Equivalence balancing the martial John Nicolls and the peaceful Jonathon Bartley who believes that there was very little courage required in bombing "innocent" civilians. He might have done something in WW2 but along the lines of his Dad who was a Medic then. As Nicolls dryly observed then if everyone had elected that we would all be speaking a different language now!