QANTAS Engineering Apprenticeship

[LJones]

hey guys,
i am applying for the 2008 QANTAS aircraft engineering apprenticeship. I see that it says you need good eyesight, how good must you eyesight be?

Also, has any one experienced this apprenticeship and if so could you shed some light on the lifestyle.

Thanks in advance.

[mitzy69]

might need to pass a colour test of eyes for ramp driving licence. seen colour vision a requirement for some positions for engineers.

[Short_Circuit]

I am told a colour blindness test will be done, hearing also. Life is good but at end of 4 years you have to apply for any possible vacancy, it is not automatic.

[Long Bay Mauler]

You will have to do a colour blindness test,thats for all applicants,but if you are applying for a Mechanical apprenticeship,it will not matter if you colour blind,as it is a requirement for Avionic Engineers to be able to differentiate different coloured wiring,etc.

So unless you wear Coke bottles,and cant see past the end of your nose,you will be ok.It is just a medical requirement thats all.There are plenty of Engineers(and pilots) who wear glasses.It is just a fact of life.

[LJones]

cheers guys. im applying for mechanical... would like to work on engines...

[LJones]

also, i live in perth atm so would i expect to have to go elsewhere for an intervoew. and also would you say that it is worth me going to melbourne and rent using the mere wage you get? PS im only 18 :P

[Long Bay Mauler]

As an apprentice,you can always share a flat with other apprentices or even live in a boarding house.It would only be for a year or so,as your wage gradually gets better over time.Plenty of other apprentices have done it,and today they are reaping the rewards of those few hard years at the start.

[employes perspective]

don't bother,you are wasting 4 yrs of your life,go do an apprenticeship in the building trade,at Qantas you will be one of the lowest paid tradesmen in the country and there is no career progression any more,HEED MY WARNING:}

[NAS1801]

I second that. I work with guys that have had 30 years experience on aircraft and their sons work in the building trades earning more money! Also, last time I looked, all wired on a Qantas planes are white....

['aveagoodknight]

would like to work on engines

I think you might be on the grease gun for a bit before getting let near an engine.

But don't worry, you'll eventually make it. :}

[mavrik1]

Hello I started QF AME Mech apprenticeship in 1999 in Mel, If you live in Perth, it is a big decision to come all the way over here, for the money they will pay you.
The training you get from Qantas is just OK. Its easier and better to do the apprenticeship with an Airline than GA, unless its with a company with a lot of cash i,e crown casino or something like that.
If you really want to go ahead with it you will have to tick the box that says AME not AM.
If you tick the box thats says Aircraft Mechanic instead of Aircraft Maintenance Engineer you have ridden your career off.
Once you start the apprenticeship you will find that the moral of the people will be at rock bottom and will find the place not a real enjoyable to work.
QF these days treat there staff very badly. Once you finish the apprenticeship you then will be able to leave and work overseas or for a company that will pay you and treat you a little better.
The job is good, but rewards are not there as they were back in the good old days, so you have to love the jet.
You will also find your mates that are plumbers and sparkys will be earning a lot more than you, will have less responabilty and not working long hours and night shift which is the future of aviation.
Other airlines are available to work for in australia after you finish your apprenticeship and there is a major shortage of engineers in the world, so there is no shortage of work. The main reason for this is that no one is training, so I have to give to Qantas for at least doing that.
The other option is Emirates in dubai are now doin full apprenticeships and are invite young Aussies to join, that comes with the rewards, if you would like to go O/S but you will be required to live in Dubai.
In my opinion I like working on aircraft but would seriously advise people against starting the QANTAS ENGINERING apprenticeship program.

P.S Don't worry about having bad eyes, it helps to have good eyes but will not stop you from getting a apprenticeship.
And yes they will let you work on engines staight away and you will be required to daily under supervision during apprenticeship.

[undergorund_flava]

hey guys
im 16 i live in ,melbourne and im in yr 10 i am applieing for a qantas mechanical engineer apprenticeship for 2008,
does anone think this is a good idea or a bad idea?
and on the application it has, maintenance stream or overhaul stream ??
wats the difference and wich one is best reccomend i put down?

help would be much appreaciated
thanx

[Long Bay Mauler]

Flava

Head for Maintenance Stream,unless you want to work in a sheltered workshop.Plus I would say go for it,because you will be still young enough to start another career if QF doesn't impress you enough to hang around after four years.

Below is the trade your after,thats unless you want to be better paid,then I would suggest you apply for the Avionics AME apprenticeship.

2. Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Mechanical

Maintains, inspects and undertakes troubleshooting of the following:

Aircraft Engine Systems
Aircraft Structures
Landing Gears, Wheels and Brakes Systems
Hydraulic and Pneumatic Systems
Flight Control Systems
Environment Control Systems

[mavrik1]

Correct bugs, Maintenance stream is (Aircraft Maintenance Engineer),
Overhaul is (Aircraft Mechanic) and you don't want to go there.
To become Licenced engineer in the future it is much easier through the AME stream, QF try's to close doors for AM's from getting ahead.
And yes the future is Avionics if you can get head around it!
Check out the Emirates Web site about what they have to offer. For a 18 year old, it will be an experience, they will look after you financially, but they will give you a run for money and be prepared for major culture shock.

[mavrik1]

Please read this thread: Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer Shortage.
I hate putting of young guys who want to follow there dreams and I personally hate people who tell people they can't achieve something.
But guys I have been there and you need to know the facts before making choices. Try and do work experience first.

[undergorund_flava]

how much does a aircraft maintenance engineer get paid?
and is it easy to get a job after the apprenticeship?

[employes perspective]

james russel what world do you live in,try 35k p/a once your an ame,and then it goes up very slow

[mavrik1]

Probably come out of your 4 years in QF on 42-52K with all OT and shift, depends where you are placed and so on!

[ottinator]

employees perspective
how you said pay rates are fairly low i was wondering if they'd go up from the predicted shortage and if the discounts are worth the work?

[employes perspective]

no they will not be going up any time soon if ever,they are dumping down the trade world wide,and as for the discounts get a real pay job and you will be able to pay full fair and get on the flights,DO ANOTHER TRADE THAT PAYS WELL:sad:

[joepatroni]

Employees perspective.

You should be encouraging people to join the trade, then there will be no shortfall in engineers. Stop frightening people off. There is plenty of oppourtunity for people to increase their wages if they want to by getting licenses and the extra money that goes with it.

[ottinator]

employees perspective
thanks for the info but i was wondering why most of ur posts are so cynical about the job, judging from ur age i guess you'd have heaps of experience but i cant help but wonder if ur some cranky old man that is against everything? Someone has to keep doing the job, no offense:suspect:

[Mischa]

I too started my apprenticeship at the ripe old age of 15 however things quickly started to crumble around me. First came the relocation of 767 Heavy maintenance to Brisbane then i saw the lives of many of my co-workers crumble with the shut down of 747 Heavy Maintenance. I would urge you to think strongly about your future and the way you would like it to turn out. If you want to be in a secure job, ****** is NOT the place for you to be. You will encounter incompetence right from the very first day you start. Good luck with you future in aviation, i would hope it doesn't include ******

[Scorpion1080]

Why is morale so low?
Why are people so cynical?

It does not help when you have the managers telling A.M.E's that they have reached the peak of their career and will not have training.

AME: what are our chances of training within the next 3-6years?
Manager: I am not going to lie to you so, none.

AME: What? Why?
Manager: Basically, we want to change the current ratio of LAMES to AMES so we can be competitive compared to the rest of the market.

1999-2001 there was a whole bunch of training and most of those LAMES trained during that period will not be leaving for another 10-15years.

Basically... If you are happy earning a base wage of between $35,000 and $45,000 for the next 10-15 years then sure, join up.

[epic]

PSSSST...
Hey young fellas can i give you a piece of valuable advice.
Stop listening to these stale old battery hens that work on boring giant stiff wing thingos and get an apprenticeship working on the most amazingingly beautiful and graceful flying creatures around.:}
Helicopters.
And. If you get a job working with a company that flys for the oil industry you will go home with not only job satisfaction, you'll be paid reasonably/very well (once licensed).
There is such a shortage of good helicopter engineers at the moment.
A good place to start is the military. Lots of young blokes do it that way.
And what an exciting way to do your training!
Good machines, good training, hands on work that involves flying in the machine and flight testing. And being with other young blokes with the same passion for life and flying machines.
I've worked all over the place in choppers and always found it a fascinating and challenging job. I am constantly hands on with the machine and working directly with pilots, ground crew and operations. And i'll say it again. A bit of flying around testing the machine to make sure things are right. That can be so much fun, and at the end of a hard days work so bloody rewarding!!!!
In the right job you will be with a small crew of guys that will be only intersted in one thing, making that chopper fly right and fly safely. No time to sit around on your ass complaining about this and that.
So don't despair. I have worked in the airline industry and found it a bit depressing.
Aircraft are great things to work on.
And i earn as much if not more than the drain cleaning plumbers.
You just need to think outside the box a bit and choose your direction carefully. Just because Qantas is big doesnt mean its the best to work for.
Ok enough said. :ok:

[Long Bay Mauler]

Hear,hear Epic.

I was just thinking something like this along similar lines myself this morning.I would have probably suggested the Navy myself,but I am sure the Army/RAAF is just as good.

And if at the end of your contract you still want to join QANTAS/Virgin/JHAS or whoever is on the scene then,well you will still have qualifications to give you a look in.

Also I would imagine that the wages/salary between the military and the airlines/MROs is about the same for the four years.

Something to consider.If I had my time over,I would strongly consider the military second time round.

Good luck.

[Tapp0]

Throughout this section there is talk about apprenticeships with the big guys like Qantas, Virgin and Emirates etc, but what do you recon about geting an apprenticeship in GA?
ATM I am finishing off my theory and have an apprenticeship lined up with a GA maintenance shop in Brisy. The instructors that I have spoke to at Tech say that you get good allround experience in Structures and Mechanical work which is the two I am doing and from what I have been exposed to/worked on so far it seems to be rele good experience, however I havent relally been exposed to the big stuf.
What do you guys recon?

[oil additive]

Hi guys and girls,

My philosophy is simple: Do what you love and you'll love what you do!

After 23 years, I still love what I'm doing and want to see people join the industry who have the same love and passion for aircraft as I do. From my experience, the guys who complain the loudest about wages, etc are usually the guys who have not got off their backsides and helped themselves.:(

To all those guys and girls who have that passion in their bellies to maintain aircraft, GO FOR IT! Life is what you make it and remember Oil Additives 2nd law of success:

Success is directly proportional to the amount of energy you put into it, and inversely proportional to the amount you expect someone else to put into it.

Have a nice day

:)

[mavrik1]

Sounds like a QF manager talking! Keep going mate! Sends shivers down my spine!

[undergorund_flava]

wtf??
poeple are saying there is a shortage a lames and then some poepl are saying there no jobs for them ??:confused:
i looked on the internet and it said tht ames get paid newhere around 50 - 55 thousand a year on average.
and on the qantas appreticeship application it sais tht you can be prmoted to maintainence supervisors and mangement teams :p

[employes perspective]

it looks like your own investigations are uncovering some untruths,entry lvl Lame is 53k pa at Qantas and it will take you many years to get their,try at least 10 yrs.

[dilbert23]

hey, does anyone know what kind of job in the mechanical side of Qantas that a graduate Mechanical engineer would be eligable for??

I'll be studying mechanical engineering next year, and have a love for planes and would like to work for Qantas or any airliner.

Thanks

[Airspire]

G'day,

I too have applied for an aircraft maintenance apprenticeship with QANTAS Airways, specifically as an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer - Avionics. However, since I wrote them a letter expressing my interset earlier on this year, I have only recieved a letter advising me that they will "contact (me) later on in the year". To date no application form sent to me, :hmm: anybody else in the same boat as me?

Anyway, I'm also going to apply to John Holland Aviation Services (JHAS), who else has applied to JHAS?

Cheers.

[lordofthewings]

Young readers interested in getting into the industry...Forget about apprenticeships with Qantas mainline..Try getting into a regional like REX/Eastern/Sunstate/Alliance/******/RFDS/NJS/Airnorth...Your career will be far more rewarding, you will be trained and you will actually get to work on aircraft.And the money is as good in most cases.
Qantas 737a/f and eng = Heavy $55000 Line $75000
Alliance F100a/f and eng= $70000-80000
For single category LAMEs you will earn more out of Qantas, you will have far more job satisfaction and a greater oppurtunity for employment.
You will not be able to hide when the big jobs come up, slonk off on the same people that carry the old gerries night after night.You will have to swim, and this will make you in most cases a far superior engineer.
Look at prevoc courses run by companies like Australian Aviation, more and more companies a sourcing apprentices from such training facilities.
Forget Qantas you will regret it...:ok:

[oil additive]

Have a look on Seek. Skywest are after 2 avionics apprentices in Perth. Fleet of Fokker 50 and Fokker 100's a great company to work for!

;)

[mavrik1]

If your applying for QF melbourne base and want a application form call their training school, get to the heart of problem: (03) 9280 7010

[Airspire]

Howdy,

Thanks for your replies James and mavrik, I was wondering why I had heard nothing from QANTAS. QANTAS engineering was so hard to contact, so that phone number for QF MEL Base is greatly appreciated mavrik! :ok:

It's comforting to know other people like yourself James are aspiring Avionics Technicians :D, so best of luck to you as well.

Cheers,

[Blacksheep]

Just a heads up on Qantas. I heard from a "reliable source" that they intend to respond to their current Trade Union difficulties by getting out of Line Maintenance and outsourcing Tech Handling. They've certainly begun issuing termination notices to carriers using their Technical Handling services. If they are indeed getting out of Line Maintenance, that would certainly reduce career opportunities within the company.

[empire4]

blacksheep, first of all i don't know who your reliable source is but as from what i've been told by a fleet maintenance manager QF want to get rid of all customer Line maint. They have no intention of getting rid of there own. this is just used as a leveraging tool against the unions. Although the way the current ACS management think i would not be surprised if they do and they will fail in spectacular style.

For the people applying for QF apprenticeships, i have some advice. I have 2 full mech licences and my next door neighbour who installs windows monday to friday earns double what i do, so don't apply if you want to own houses!! The pay used to be good, but the industry is getting choked. QF are NOT training any lames, so if you don't want to be an ame forever,(45K) then listen to the other smart gents on here and go to a regional or virgin. from my knowledge virgin pay well. If you have a passion for aircraft then do whats in your heart. Thats what i did, however that will wear thin after a while, i know. And while all your friends are at a barbeque on new years eve or xmas day on their own balcony, your girlfriend will be out with her friends and you'll be at work. probably in the rain if you are on line, changing wheels and brakes at 2am. hope you make the right choice.

[Scorpion1080]

The applications for apprenticeship within Qantas closed yesterday I believe.

They would like to take on 100+ Australia wide this year. Anyone who applied should hear from them within the next few weeks probably.

[employes perspective]

doing what you love is great but it doesn't give you a standard of living,when you mates are driving new cars every few years and you show up to work in your 15 yr old car,you will think back to this topic and think **** what have i done.
I too loved aircraft and now i earn 3 times as much as i did as a LAME,but it's in retail:p

[Ngineer]

Good luck Ljones. If your lucky enough to still have a job out of your time you will probably end up adjusting meal trays for the rest of your life. 10 years ago I might have recommended this job, but not today. Theres more money in building or plumbing. Best of luck anyhow.

[Short_Circuit]

Agree,
I had a top apprentice, who instead of getting an offer at Avionics, where he should be, was offered a position at QDS, Richmond or a position on a Cabin Interior Crew, despite my complaints to Management. He now adjusts meal trays instead of fixing Avionic defects (did many months in Mods and knows more up to date stuff than I do). What a waste of talent. Did Management ask the Seniors LAME’s on the floor about his knowledge and ability, NOT ON YOUR LIFE, just some d!ck non trade interviewer who would know nothing about his history, knowledge and ability. It is just another disgrace from ACS….

W.T.F.Is.Going.On.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
D!ckheads ?????:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[marek s. tas]

hey guys,

I recently applied for the Qantas Engineering Apprenticeship, and I got a phone call last Friday about the the Aptitude Test that commences on Saturday 17th November 2007 at 09:00 in Sydney. I googled 'QANTAS Engineering Apprenticeship' with hope to find some more information about it, but after reading this topic I’m totally confused and disappointed somehow.
I live in Tasmania and career options here are limited, but that's not the point. I really would like to become an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer and prefer to work on the Helicopters, but as a newie don't know where to go and look for an apprenticeship. If I'd like to go to school and do a course, than I would still need a job provider to get enrolled. Qantas was one of the providers that gave me a reply. NOw I have no ideas should I stay or should I go !!!:ugh::ugh:
but I just don't want to waste another year doing :mad: grocery, hospitality or whatever...
I'd finally like to get on track and do my trade.

did you guys apply somewhere else besides qantas?

When it come to make your life time decisions and choose the right options without screwing the rest of your short life, :mad:happens.

[Grassmere Avenue]

OK all....
It is true that QF management are idiots. That's what happens when people get performance bonuses...they will do anything to get it, because they know they won't be there in a few years to sort out the mess they create...
The biggest single issue with QF is the number of people in it for themselves who can and do hide behind the HUGE bureaucracy...meaning, there are so many people with an inflated opinion of their own importance, but when the **** hits the fan, trying to find the people responsible is impossible....
QF train apprentices very well, the bonus is it's a company that has a good reputation, despite the truth from the workforce...
You will hear all sorts of doom and gloom...at the end of your time you may be lucky and be one of the chosen few, but any other employer in the industry will look favourably on your training...
As an apprentice, you should do your basics whilst doing your apprenticeship, the company will reimburse you, and it puts you in great stead with the outside world of aviation.
You can go anywhere in the industry with the training.
The days of earning double the average wage are long gone though.
The rest of the world has caught up and in many cases surpassed the QF engineer.
But one day all the old buggers at the top have to retire.....
PS Consider Queensland Aviation School and read Friday's Australian newspaper Aviation section....and ring people in the ads....asks questions and most people are decent and will give answers
There is a whole world out there...QF is just a small part of it:ok:

[employes perspective]

what rubbish,you will not be held in any regard you will be like the rest of the aviation industry engineers,screwed,i to was a lame in Heavy maint and the best i could get after the lay offs last year was an AME position earing 35k per ye base,and thats with 20 yrs industry experience,don't waste your life look to a career with a future,and it's not aircraft maintenance.

[Airspire]

I live in Tasmania and career options here are limited, but that's not the point. I really would like to become an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer and prefer to work on the Helicopters, but as a newie don't know where to go and look for an apprenticeship. If I'd like to go to school and do a course, than I would still need a job provider to get enrolled. Qantas was one of the providers that gave me a reply. NOw I have no ideas should I stay or should I go !!!:ugh::ugh:


G'day marek s. tas,

If you are that way inclined with helicopters, why not try an apprenticeship with the Australian Defence Force (ADF), particularly the Army or the Navy. The Defence Force would be an excellent training opportunity, particularly with the new hardware that is coming online in the next few years, combined with working on cutting edge miltary technology, job security and travel. :ok: The Navy in particular are crying out for aircraft and avionics technicians (all rotary wing), to a point where the entrance standards are substantially lower than their Army and Air Force counterparts. And the big $$$$$ in the Navy while at sea:O, not for everyone though.

However, over the Tasman in Victoria there is also a newly established John Holland Aviation Services (JHAS) -www.jhas.com.au, at Melbourne Airport. JHAS have the capacity to maintain both civilian and military aircraft as well, so that should prove interesting.

Best of luck, but on a final note, QANTAS apprentice "administration":rolleyes: are depressingly useless so I would give them the big flick. Once again, try either the ADF or some Commercial/GA companies over on the mainland.


P.S.> Have you tried the Yellow Pages under Aviation?

Cheers,

[ay2k]

Hey, just wondering has anyone heard any response from Qantas for 2008 apprenticeship intake? I sent my application form two weeks ago

[employes perspective]

UNDERGROUND FLAVA your 16 and already showing signs of intelligent life,you should take instruction very well with this attitude and really propel yourself in this carer of aircraft maintenance,your attitude should determine your altitude ,d!ckhead

[Bolty McBolt]

IMHO
I would not advocate applying for any position in engineering in aviation.
Management see engineering as an expensive nuisance and is treated as such. (Pilots in Oz also in the accountants gun sights)
Grassmere Avenue's post is true for when I did my apprenticeship but sadly no longer the case. You end up jack of all trades master of none and you are not accredited or qualified to do anything else.
Once you have completed your training you have a life of 24 hour 7 day shift work ahead of you. Which is Not as glamorous as it sounds.

James russell. I have known at least 6 apprentices with same career aspirations as your self. All keen to learn which is refreshing but all bar 1 were not keen to do. The thing about maintenance engineering is learning the system, how to fix it and how to do it more efficiently next time. The would be pilots in my experience were not interested in rounding this part of their skill set as they thought they would not need it. Wasted my time.Please don't be one of them.

If I wanted to fly and was willing to do a trade, pick electrician or plumber. You will be well paid plus you can do cash jobs to pay for your flying. Do a diploma in business aviation and go from there.
If you end up in the sticks doing flying work to get your hours, there is always work for building trades in rural areas and not so much for an inexperienced aircraft engineer especially in GA. Where your big plane experience is worth nothing until you can prove otherwise. And you will probably have to prove it for no wages.
(not sure but I think the current QF apprenticeship is big plane only and has GA stuff removed from curriculum)

Last but not least QF have a terrible reputation for how it treats its apprentices. In 95 they sacked a whole year of 4th year end apprentices and have not been able fill apprentice vacancies since. As someone mentioned above they are looking for many apprentices, but they can't get enough applications to fill the numbers. eg Back when I applied 20 something years ago they had over 2000 aplicants for 60 jobs without advertising.
Now with advertising they cant fill the positions open.

ACS recently told all their AMEs that there was no hope of progression to becoming licensed, so their career is now stifled subsequently many AMEs and some LAMEs are leaving at a rate never seen before at 1 per week.
For mine. I am in and wish I could get out, but the road for any new starters is completely different to the one I travelled which I believe will be much less rewarding in job satisfaction and monetarily.
Look before leap
:ok:

[Short_Circuit]

I agree with Bolty, do it but not at QF anymore. No chance of progression, just slave labor with no respect. Go anywhere else, it is a good job but you need management that recognises your value.

S_cct

[Spanner Turner]

James Russell and marek s. tas,

Sorry boys - but Bolty speaks the truth. Please don't waste a good proportion of your early working careers by starting at Qantas. You both sound young and keen and you won't be well served by being at Qantas. The training is a distant faded shadow of what I received when I started in the late 80's. The jet base in Sydney is a rickety old skeleton of what was once a grand mini city of aircraft and component/engine maintenance. What's left now (after the accountants were allowed to take over the world) is barely enough for those of us left to keep the current fleet in the air. Some areas that I spent time in and learning during my apprenticeship were an engine shop that stripped and rebuilt up to 6 types of high bypass fan engines, 2 types of turbo prop engines, a turbo prop test-cell, a workshop that overhauled all the major engine components - yes, i got to strip and rebuild starters, fuel control units, generators, pumps, valves, motors etc. there was a propellor overhaul section, a chair maintenance 'Bay', a complete fibreglass workshop, 4 sheetmetal shops, a 'survival' section where escape slide/rafts & lifejackets were overhauled, a wheel & brake overhaul section, major maintenance on 767, 747, 747-400, RAAF Hercules C130, RAAF 707..........the list goes on. NONE of this will be available to you!
The training was unavoidable and relentless. It was a system of training that was fantastic at turning out engineers who had a great base for going on and are now the ones keeping the aircraft and the line stations running. Then accountants and globalisation arrived one day and now all this stuff has been "relocated" "downsized" "rationalised" "outsourced" "re-directed" and "put out to tender". As I said, with our newfound lack of resources, we're hard pressed to maintain our fleet to any sort of decent standard let alone have any resources or time/facilities to provide new people a decent shot at training. As with everywhere else in " the current climate" , the almighty dollar rules and it's all about "minimal" cost and minimum everything else.

As an example, for the introduction of the Airbus A380, Qantas will be training approx 18-24 people on the aircraft. If this is the level of engineering input that Qantas believe is adequate for their "Pride of the Fleet" where do you think that will leave you?

There have also been persistent rumours for years of "Qantas, the airline" spinning/selling off engineering and/or making it a subsiduary. Very soon you may find yourself not working for Qantas, but 'Red Rat Low Cost Maintenance Services."


Management see engineering as an expensive nuisance and is treated as such.


Yep, when I want to replace a titanium duct because it's damaged, I "cost" the airline money. There is pretty much nothing I do that "makes" money for Qantas so the numbercounters just want to get rid of engineering altogether.

Please listen to blokes like me and Bolty who have been very well trained in this industry and have seen the gradual (and lately, steep) decline in the engineering arm of Qantas. People such as yourselves who are young and keen, in fact keen enough to seek out web chatrooms to find out about a potential career should direct your energies toward a skill/trade that will serve you better in making some progression through life.

Obviously aviation is an interest, if not a passion for you, so try to find a way to incorporate it in your life as a hobby/sidelight rather than "a job" as an aircraft engineer - you will only be dissapointed.

Trust me - (hundreds of people do each day with their lives) I'm not trying to burst your bubble or be negative - MY job is good and the pay is still adequate - unfortunately for you, at Qantas currently, there is a snowflakes chance in hell of you coming close to achieving the same level of training/pay under the current system.

You must have another passion or interest, why not try Formula 1 Driver or rockstar?

[SBR_RV]

im an avionics apprentice and go to school with the qantas apprentices, and would have to say that im getting a better apprenticeship than they are, just because its a big airline, it doesnt mean its all the goods.

Another person in my class is working as an avionics apprentace for an oil company and is earing around the $800 mark a week (1st year BTW).

[numbskull]

I echo the sentiments of Bolty and Spanner Turner.

What I would recommend is apply and take the apprenticeship if its offered(in lieu of any better offer) but don't stop looking for other options.

Your opportunities are very limited in QF (for the forseeable future anyway). This MAY change but don't hold your breath. If you get the job you should be prepared to ditch them if you find a better option (they won't hesitate to ditch you).

Personally, I have a had great training and opportunities at QF over the last 20 years but I took the option of leaving for precisly that reason. Limited future career prospects within Qantas.

PS its not too late to leave Bolty- I love not working nighshift and weekends anymore. If your out of work for longer than a few weeks I will be very surprised.

[Bolty McBolt]

PS its not too late to leave Bolty- I love not working nighshift and weekends anymore. If your out of work for longer than a few weeks I will be very surprised.

Show me the money numbskull, You know i have a very expensive beer habit to support.


Another person in my class is working as an avionics apprentace for an oil company and is earing around the $800 mark a week
This sounds interesting.. Is this person working on helicopters
Thinking of venturing down this road myself unless numbskull get me a high paying gig at his place...

[numbskull]

The only problem with what I'm doing now is that I drive keyboard 90% of the time these days.

Its not very exciting but it pays well and you don't get the "Operational stress" that LAMES have trying to fix broken planes with minimal spares, downtime, manpower etc.

Bolty with your experience you should be able to pick up either contract or full time work in the Defence industry around the $75 -$90k mark for Mon-Fri work. (I know 1 guy is on $57 p/hour and he's not particularly special)It depends on how good a deal you can negotiate for yourself. Plenty of QF people have found work at Garden Is.

PM me next time your in town and we'll catch up for a beer

[FMU]

So, has anyone been contacted by Qantas yet? James Russell, how have things worked out?

[SBR_RV]

This sounds interesting.. Is this person working on helicopters
Thinking of venturing down this road myself unless numbskull get me a high paying gig at his place...


yes, helicopters!

[eshlon]

Hey guys,
just wondering if anyone who visits this forum has made it to the medical/police check stage of their QANTAS AME apprenticeship application. I have! fingers crossed for myself and everyone else. Although, if the the comments of others that suggest QANTAS should not be cosidered as a choice of employer for their given reasons are true, then perhaps I should terminate my application now and let some other poor bastard have the chance/position?! ;) just a thought.

[empire4]

18 and making a big mistake. Remember when your mother told you to do something and you never listen, then years later you think back and she was right the whole time. thats whats happening here.

he's some more info. After doing your time and completing basics, and 2 years service

Trade + 8 Basics and your 6 years service then you are
QF AME level 10 = $25.12 p/h

Trade + ALL basics + Type course + SOE + 6-8 years sevice then you are
QF LAME Level 3 = $26.94 p/h if you get a course or pay for one and they recognise it.

Do yourselves a favour and ask your mates dads and their mates what hourly rate they are on, i bet it's higher. Passion for aircraft only last a while, then you need a house!

[aus01]

Sorry mate QF anit the only bad boy in aus aviation. other airlines are no better when it comes to pay or any of the other issues you've been warned about. its all the same today . 7 years ago i made a bad mistake buy takeing an apprentiship, now a LAME on $25.00/hr i kick myself everytime time i sign to think i am certifing for A/C maintenace for $25.00/hr i can throw bricks or concret for $30/hr


DONT DO IT

[QF22]

My God Ronnie RAAF ! ! !
Fun Job but no money there either ! ! !

[eshlon]

Mate, I know the Air-Force doesn't pay that well. It does, however, offer a huge range of allowances/benefits on top of an airman's normal salary. i.e. The Defence Credit Union offers full-time and part-time members of the Australian Defence Force low interest rates on Home Loans, lower than bank and other Home Loan lenders. Not to mention the amount of allowances you get when on operations and exercises.

Most of all though, i reckon i'll get job satisfaction and career progression in the Air-Force, aswell as the ability to work with people my own age, which is something that members of this forum say that QANTAS doesn't offer.

[Airspire]

Eshlon,

I wish you the best of luck to your endeavours with QANTAS Engineering. However, in light of the previous replies, you might want to look somewhere else with better career prospects and progression.

The Australian Defence Force would be a good move I would think. The Navy, Army and Air Force offer apprenticeships in Avionics, Mechanical and Structures. The equivalent of an Avionics streamed AME, is known as an Avionics Technician across the three services. The main difference is that the RAAF is all fixed wing, while the Navy (pays more) and Army operate all the rotary wing assets.

With the pay side of things, I don’t know many other occupations that you could walk straight into earning $49,000+ p.a., along with your training paid for, free health and dental care, subsidised accommodation and a few of the other perks that Eshlon mentioned before. Consequently, this drives your wage further when compared to living in civvy world as you don’t have many of the usual expenses. Not to mention that your pay keeps going up in healthy increments, and as a technician your pay can go up to $100,000 p.a. based on rank and posting. It’s the bigger picture that people haven’t seen here, maybe it’s because people only see $$$$$$$$$ signs.:rolleyes:

Not to steer away from the aircraft trades, but the RAAF also has a mustering called a Communication and Electronics Technician, that might better reflect some of the work you have done in your apprenticeship and have a better chance at gaining RPL from already completed/related modules.

I wouldn't mind the Rarely Active After Four lifestyle on base, no hope of that though in the Navy or the Army!;)

Regards,

[scully21century]

Just got offered an aprenticship with Qantas as an AME avionics. Wonder why it took so long for them to make a decision.
A few questions...
Is a pathway to Uni to do like Aerospace enginneering? I know technically that there is but how probable is it that you would be accepted into a Uni course after doing an apprenticeship.
I havent finished school yet, i am about half way through Yr 12, is it worth finishing or doing the apprentcieship now?

[numbskull]

I you want to go to Uni, finish year 12 and got to uni. Don't do an apprenticeship which takes 4 years.

I your smart enough to get into aeronautical engineering then I would advise you to go down that path. Not into a fairly dead end trade with little earning capacity and even less training available to get a licence. Sure, the training by major airlines might change in the future (or it may not) but either way you'll be earning well less than the average wage for the first 10 years of your career.

Go to uni if you can, you'll earn more money and be earning well above the average wage probably straight after you finish.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Plus Aeronautical Engineers are highly sought after by Formula 1,Indy and other car racing teams for their design abilities.And there are loads of other interesting industries that require those types of engineering skills.

If you really want to be a LAE after doing university,then you can always go back(or is it backwards) as you will still be young enough.

[JetMech]

I thought I would add my experiences with QF into the mix. I did a Mechanical apprenticeship starting in 96 and finishing in 00. Bear in mind that much may have changed since then.

Don't get too worried if you receive papers from QF where the application date has already past. This is just how things work there. Fill in the forms and send them off. Do tick the AME box, as it is generally easier to get onto better things than ticking the AM box.

The initial testing for the apprenticeship consist of a set of aptitude tests. From memory, there is a mechanical aptitude test (i.e. you are given a drawing of a gear train and you must figure out which way the various gears turn / drawings of various shapes and you must decide which two items are identical etc), a English grammar test, a mental arithmetic test, and one more that escapes my memory (may be a short written test on your motivations for working with QF / why you would be a good engineer etc.)

The interview is the next stage if you pass. This used to be conducted by engineering personel, so there was none of the usual nonsence you get with job interviews. If you were going for avionics, you are given a circuit board where you have to identify various components. Mechanical guys are asked to describe the workings of 2 and 4 stroke engines with the aid of a sectioned engine.

If you get the apprenticeship, you then start your training. This used to be a combination of the first nine months at the QF apprentice training school (don't think it exists anymore). You go to your fist section in the last three months of the first year. Second and third years alternates between rotations at the jetbase, and block release at TAFE. Fourth year consists of rotations at the jetbase.

You can get a degree through QF (cadetship), but you will have to finish your apprenticeship first. Bear in mind, that the cadetship is another eight year commitment. You spent the fist two years at uni, and the alternate between a year at QF, and a year of uni. At the end of this, you have to give another two years to QF. You can apply for Mechanical and Aero engineering, and another degree, which is basically a management / business type degree. Bear in mind that the final choice as to the degree you get is decided by QF.

On a personal note, if you want a aircraft maintenance engineering trade, with experience on the big jets, then go for QANTAS, as it is the only employer offering this in OZ. If you do like planes, it is very interesting, but bear in mind that there is lots of tedious crap as well.

Also bear in mind what the old hands have said. Training was always a contentious issue at QF. It is certaily a case of "it's not what you know, it's who you know". Also be prepared for shift work and the restriction it places on your life. It certainly gave me the ****s when my mates were out and about and I was working.

The best way to possibly see it, is gaining an apprenticeship and some experience that you use to get into other areas. Of the 5 blokes that started with me as mechanical AME's, 5 have gone back to uni (3 thru QF cadetship, 2 including me off our own backs) with only one left still at QF.

My colleagues still at QF genrally reflect the sentiments of some of the older hands who have written here. That is, things are not what they used to be, and going down hill.

In summary, go for the apprenticeship if you want to, as not many people ever get to play with jet engines and 747's, but keep an eye out for other opportunities as other have said. Think of your QF apprenticehip as a stepping stone to stuff outside of QF.

Regards, JetMech

[Ultralights]

Forget QF, BAE Systems is looking for apprentices in all trades at all sites, basic AME wage when finished is $26.40 hr, or about $55K. and that only working a 4 day shift, every weekend is 3 days long! work hrs are 6 am to 4 pm, mon to thurs.
you will be working on Millitary aircraft, so market forces are not a factor in wage yearly increases, in the 4 yrs i have been here, it has average 4% PA. not to mention performance bonuses of about $4000 PA. and with life of type contracts at most sites, work wont be drying up any time soon..

im ex QF, QF is a sheltered workshop, unless you get on your hands and knees under a desk, you will NOT get anywhere.

PM me if you want any more info....

sites are Pearce with the Hawk 127, Williamtown with the F18 Hornet and Hawk 127, Townsville, Holsworthy, Nowra working on sea Hawk, sea King and squirrel, blackhawk Brisbane working on Hercs and F111 occasionally.

[crushenator]

apply to the air new zealand engineering school, sure its across the tasman n such, but its a really good setup here in christchurch and there are good prospects at the end, not to mention if you get your licence then you can go anywhere in the world pretty much. better than any building jobs cos you get to mess with aircraft :8

[600ft-lb]

except that you have to pay air nz for your servicess.. ???:confused:

[corporate kid]

A bit off topic but does anyone have a contact for Qantas HR or the engineering dept at melbourne. I am a LAME looking for work.

Thanks

[Engineer_aus]

I did my apprenticeship there, and got bugger all out of it apart from part filled SOE's I now work elsewhere and after being there for a year they are offering Licence courses to AME's. Also on your days off go work in GA like I did through your apprenticeship and get your Group 1 at least and try and get group 5, 6, and 10 which will give you a reduction on group 20/21. There are plenty of GA places which would welcome your cheap labour and at the same time you are setting up yourself for endless opportunities. People employ LAME's more than AME's. Also the experience you get in GA is so much more than what you will ever get at Qantas, aka fitters engineers as thats what really goes on when you think about it. Just watch out for management and don't piss anyone off, as that will be it for your career.

[ops2008]

hey engineer aus can you tell me who at casa told you they would give a group 20/21 redustion for ga? all i have been told by them is NO CHANCE IN HELL..... lol.:ugh:

[Engineer_aus]

Group 1,5,6,10 will give you a 20% reduction in your group 20/21 Airframe.
Then if you have a Group 20/21 you have to do some work in Sked maintenance on your group 1, and you get given 5,6,10

[bajaki]

qantas wont you to stay a ame after your apprenticeship. no training given anymore. i am 2 yrs out of the apprenticeship and now have to look for something else as they do not offer a career other than ame. it has all changed in the last 5-6 yrs

stay away is my best advice.

low moral at the sydney jet base and heaps of engineers leaving.

sorry all

[Engineer_aus]

2 Perth AME's are going to get a course. About time.

[IFOT]

It is worth doing a QF Apprenticship!!!

I moved to Perth after completing an apprenticeship with QF and I have had no problems finding well paid work for an AME with good career progression towards getting licensed. The work isn't to stressful and the shift suits me.
As there is a shortage of engineers, there are many companies who are looking for licensed and unlicensed engineers. If you work hard, fill in your SOE and have you basics you will be given a course. If you don't mind working on Metros or other group 1 aircraft, after about a year of filling out your 1,5,6 and 10 SOE with a good company, you can earn about 75000 on shift with no course required!
There are opportunities to earn around 100K once you get a group 20 license.
With the average age of LAMEs being so high, more aircraft operating in Australia and not enough engineers being trained, there will be no shortage of jobs for engineers in the future.
I suggest that most of the people who tell you not do a QF apprenticeship are the ones who want everything handed to them on a plate and are too damn lazy to get off there arse and work for it.
It beats me how unblocking someones drain or installing someones oven could a better job than working on multi million dollar aircraft, you may get the big dollars a year or 2 quicker in other trades but in the long run, you can get pad just as well if not better fixing aircraft. Sure there are the mundane jobs but if you score a line job like I have then most of the work is pretty good!
The opportunities are out there, you just have to ask questions and find them!

For those of you who failed in your ambitions to be a rich QF LAME, please do not try to discourage others to justify your own choices!!!

If you really want to work on aircraft for a living then go for it. You will be a lot happier doing that than doing something you don't like for the sake of 10-20K a year. And if you do need the money then just hunt around for it cause its there!!!!

[flyaussie]

AME and LAME is an awesome career. Get you Cert IV in aeroskills and complete an apprenticship and work hard. Too may Y gen people out there want everything haned to them on a platter and they want it now. And too there are too many old school LAME with their head in the sand that keep telling everyone that all our conditions are being erroded away. Once you are a qualified AME try contracting instead of working for an MRO. And work on getting your SOE on Group 20 to get a licence asap. Contractors are paid 20% more than permies, just remember you get not holiday or sick leave.

[dotco]

im an ame and i recommend to do another trade unless you really love the jet, its bad money, very low moral, boring, training is very unorganised, no job security, just to name a few. even if you do your basics and type courses you will join the Que of many ame's with self funded licenses not getting reconised by the company

[Robo00]

Hey, i have just completed my trade and now earn 60k p.a with out over time. there is loads to do if u like.... you only get paid about $600 bucks a day if you would like to do O.T. and I only work 14 days a month. I am now able to work the other 16 days at a local flying school instructing.
There is loads of opportunity within the apprenticeship and if u have any questions it is best to contact apprentice training to answer them.
Its not all bad. I had an awesome experience doing the trade.
Cheers

[queensland sheetie]

can anyone give me an accurate version of the remuneration package offered to new emirates aircraft technicians (structures/sheeties)

[Red Baron]

These rates are current under EBA VII which runs out 31 December 2008, you could add 3% to each figure for rates of pay under EBA VIII which starts 01 Januuary 2009 because that's all QF give each EBA. For more info try and find a QF AME. These figures have been quoted out of my QF mates copy of EBA VII.

Apprentice Rates of Pay Per Week

Non Aircraft Trades (AM)

Year 1 $316.26
Year 2 $414.14
Year 3 $564.74
Year 4 $662.64

Aircarft Trades (AME)

Year 1 $325.22
Year 2 $425.88
Year 3 $580.75
Year 4 $681.40
Adult Apprentices $686.69 (over 21 years of age)


Tradesman Rates of Pay Per Week

Level 5 $731.06
Level 6 $753.00
Level 7 $774.33
Level 8 $806.56
Level 9 $847.05
Level 10 $888.49
Level 11 $938.66
Level 12 $980.59
Level 13 $1039.14*

* Currently only for Avionic AME's


Progression Within The Clasification Structure

Aircraft Trades - Avionics

Level 7 on commencement as an Avionic Aircraft Trades employee.
Level 8 after one year at Level 7.
Level 9 after one year at level 8.
Level 10 after two years at level 9.

Access to Levels 11-13 are on a 'quota' controlled basis.

Aircraft Trades - Other (AME)

Level 6 on commencement as an Aircraft Trades Employee (other than Avionics).
Level 7 after one year at level 6.
Level 8 after one year at level 7.
Level 9 after two years at level 8.

Access to levels 10-12 are on a 'quota' controlled basis.

Non Aircraft Trades (AM)

Level 5 on commencement as a Non Aircraft Trades employee.
Level 6 after one year at level 5.
Level 7 after one year at 6.
Level 8 after two years at level 7.

Access to levels 9-12 are on a 'quota' controlled basis.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Level 13 $1039.14*

* Currently only for Avionic AME's

Slight elaboration on this, level 13 is not available to AME's working on aircraft. It is only available to those working on components in the workshops. Any level 13's residing in the hangars either translated from grade 6 on the old pay scale, or translated from level 5 and subsequently attained 8 basics.

For each CASA basic attained that is applicable to your trade, you will receive a one off payment of $100. (This is above the $100 refunded to you by Qantas for the CASA examination fee)

Once you have attained 8 CASA basics, you are eligible to move up by one level.
Level 10-12 for mechanics and 11-12 for avionics are available on a Quota controlled basis only. If you attain one of these levels through successful application for a Quota position, however, you may not advance by one level if you subsequently attain 8 CASA basics.

This effectively makes level 13 an un-attainable level.

In Brisbane Heavy, our managers have promised for over five years, (yes, even before we all moved to Brisbane), that there is scope for level 13 in our facility. Sadly, this has amounted to nothing. All talk, no action.

[qantastrike]

All remaining Perth AME's have now been given 'confirmed' dates for there
type courses. There is opportunity in this company but it wont present itself you will have to get off your A*%E and find it yourself. These guys in Perth have worked hard for the last 2-3 years and there courses are well deserved. :D

[snr lame]

mate , QF treat their staff like ****e , if you want a better job go somewhere else.

[AWB_Clerk]

Don't do it at QF. Look for an apprenticeship in GA. At least there you might learn something.

[eshlon]

To all those who made the pessimistic comments on here, all of your comments had/have merit.

Rewind a couple of years, knowing what I know now, would I do an apprenticeship with this company? No.

Best thing about this place are the people on the tools, and even then...! The pay is only good if you are a LAME - which in this current day, wont happen - staff travel is absolutely ****! and so are those nazi's at the Sydney Int standby check-in (i've only met 1 exception in all the times I flew). You are never guaranteed a seat, compared to our competitors (domestic and int'l), who get guaranteed seats! The grounding and redundancies are representative of the type of change the managers are putting through, and the lengths at which they will go to enforce them.

I can't recall any positives other than working with a couple of the best blokes ever; working on planes :yuk: (a passion eventually made sour because of this company); getting paid.

I highly suggest the RAAF! In lieu of that, anything else! Hindsight hey! What a pr*ck of a thing. :(

[Bagus]

I feel sorry for thes apprentices,no future for u guys in this company,it is dead and gone,find another trade

[samee]

What U Mean sir!!

[frankthespanner]

I'm about to complete an apprenticeship with QF ,i read all of these threads 3 years ago and still went ahead. The future of HM in Melbourne was looking good then and i was happy with my choice. NOW ,well ,it's f*cked. I wanted a path in the HM stream and move into LMO at a later time when i gained more experience.

If i can't get into a line postion i'll have to pack and move to Brisbane with a hope of HM work there. Victoria is loosing lobs from all corners, it's a depressing situation and only going to get worse.

[Bagus]

Where ever u go ,you are just buying time,unless the government act soon ,u might as well change carrier,HM is gone.AJ is destroying the future of aircraft maintenance in Australia.

[thebutterflyeffect]

Given the time passed since the last addition to this thread, where do you think AME apprentice and employment opportunities sit now?

[thebutterflyeffect]

Thank you for your reply. I can see your valid point here. I have been accepted into studying the Diploma of Aeroskills (Avionics). However, I need an apprenticeship. I am in ADL, so there appears to be less opportunity here than in SYD for example where QF have apprenticeships advertised. Government incentives are being offered to companies and trainees to assist with the "reported" shortage of aircraft maintenance workers within Australia.... Along with the state government subsidising the fee 100% for the Cert IV avionics and mechanical through TAFESA. Therefore, the current employment opportunities and feedback from those within the industry contradict the governments forecast for an impending need for A/C maintenance worker/ engineers. Is anyone able to shed light on apprenticeship opportunities or even ADL information?

[plasticmerc]

butterflyeffect,

The B1, B2 system was created by EASA to basically get the B1 to do the majority of the work and have even fewer B2 guys/girls.
Well that seriously back fired!
90% of B1's are not the greatest at electrics, and basic avionics.
A good B2 is well worth their weight in gold!

If I was you don't listen too hard to someone who has probably been in QF too long.
QF is not the bees all and ends all of aviation in the world Trust me it's not!
I've had many ex QF guys come and work for me and with me over the years once out of QF they don't last long any where else.
Don't get me wrong there is a lot of great guys in QF and in OZ aviation but are we the best in the world?
Are our standards better than anyone else?
Aviation in OZ is small compared to the rest of the world.

Do your training mate, Adelaide is good place to start easy, relaxed and great guys around.
Is Parafield still open?

You will learn more working in GA as an apprentice than at QF.
Ok maybe not all the fancy stuff but the basics the important stuff, radios, electrics, wiring, mods instruments.
A lot of this stuff is exactly the same GPS radar etc.
only thing different is the size and the way it's displayed in the cockpit.

Please note the only reason I am not comparing VA to this is they don't train apprentices.

If you are serious about moving then even consider crossing the ditch.

In the future don't be afraid of moving overseas to further yourself, continue to challenge yourself to better yourself.

Remember no one owes you anything you have to earn it yourself inch by inch scratch by scratch, no one will give you something just cause your there.

Good luck with your endeavors.