CJ3 Fuel on arrival

[nomorecatering]

Looking at stretching the range of a CJ3. Would planning for 400lbs of fuel on arrival, in VFR conditions be pushing the limits.

[checklist69]

Most Certainly

[733driver]

Not sure what rules apply to your flight but 400 lbs is less than 30 minutes at low altitudes and that would be the absolute minimum for me provided VMC, two runways. etc.

To arrive at an airfield with only one runway with less then 30 minutes of fuel remaining is not a good idea in my opinion.

I would say plan on landing with at least 30 minutes and plan for an alternate if your destination only has a single runway.

But most importantly: follow the applicable rules and regs.

[nomorecatering]

I;m talking a strictly Pvt op, owner pilot only on board. reason is overwater flight, HNL to LA. According t the charts I have, it could do it......just, if you would accept the bare min fuel on arrival.

Not a commercial op, so can wait out for good wx.

[733driver]

If this is already long range cuise I would not do it. You have nothing left to play with. Also you may not get a climb straight to optimum level and you may have to descend early and of course that will cost fuel. Sounds too tight for me....

[nomorecatering]

Yes, i agree it would be too tonught. I;m wondering if there are any mods out yet for the CJ3 that can improve things a little. I hear that the CJ3 is performing a fair bit better than book, but would like to got a little more.

According to the figures, with 2 up and full fuel, there is still 700 lbs to go before MTOW, if one could find a place for another 100 USG that would ease things considerably. Perhaps behind the Lav, or in the rear baggage compartment though rotor burst zone requirements may preclude this.

My contact wants to be able to do
Sydney(Oz), to

Pago Pago, 2375 nm - stretching it even with extra fuel but plenty of enroute stopping points if needed

HNL 2258 nm

Santa Monica. 2217 nm

[Cypher]

you could go PHNL-PACD-SEA-LAX
Might make that first overwater leg a bit more acceptable.

Whats a bit of fuel compared to swimming....

[airmen]

I would plan for optimum level minus 5 level and of course take headwindx2 or tailwind/2 then see whats left with LRC; but min. for VFR is 45' reserve not 30'... at least!

[cambioso]

This is a "wind-up" isn't it?
LRC mostly over water, and 400lbs left (in theory) on arrival.........?
Slightly stronger headwinds than forcast, presurisation probs, engine or Nav system failure etc etc........
NAH! We've been duped guys!

[Unkle Fester]

Come on Cambio. just your type of trip no?

Long overwater flight... Pilot against the odds. Trip that pilots dream of??
Man and machine against nature? No?

[HyFlyer]

And what about the driftdown situation, one engine only operating......
And have you also considered the oxygen on board if you have a depressurization, at what point would you also have to start down to a lower flight level...?
Private or commercial the rules of physics are the same. Run out of fuel......you are in trouble, big trouble...... and the legal type is the least of your worries.
Just say NO.

[PicMas]

Since we are talking about a Citation, my bet would be to start the trip, if fuel starts looking a bit low DITCH IT!!! it was proven earlier that the Citation has strong abilities on water :}:zzz:

[CE-Jockey]

Well my first post on PPRuNe. I started an account to find out more about Cathay and I have been finding loads of great info.

Anyhoo. If I can shed some light on the trip from Oz to SMO in a Cj3 for nocatering without offending here it goes.

I have a 525(s) type and have time in the Cj 1 2 and 3. Most of my operational experience is in the Cj2.

We like to land our Cj2 with about 600# a side as a general minimum. We are US west coast based and normally have clear and a million and we still like to have plenty for reserves.

I don't have enough time in the Cj3 to shed any light on minimum fuel but would assume it would be more than what we like to have in the Cj2. 900# an hour a side for takeoff power at sea level for the Cj3

I have run accross guys who have taken a Cj1 to NZ and OZ. It was via a much more conservative route. I think Alaska and Japan then south. I remember thinking what a cool route and was green with envy. I wished I could have gone.

I wouldn't attempt the trip your talking about in a Cj3. The aircraft does really well at 450. But if you have to decend for any reason your way worse off than up a creek without a paddle. I'm sure it can be done but there is no reason to risk it all just to prove it.

[CE-Jockey]

I think this is a windup but just to shed a bit more light on the situation.

I just spent 4:09 cramped in the cockpit of a Cj3 on the way to Chicago. This was not comfortable. The cockpit is teeny and you really have to cram your way in there. The flights your talking about are way over 4 hours.:eek:

If you put reserve fuel in the lav area no one will be able to use the lav! :hmm:

Just have them buy a bigger airplane or fly within the Cj3's limits.

[spider123]

We've operated a CJ3 for 18 months now and I have flown from LAX to Sydney, Oz, but definitely not on the route you mentioned. I went LAX-SEATTLE-COLD BAY-PETROPAVLOSK-KANSAI-KOROR-CAIRNS-SYDNEY. We had headwinds the whole route, longest leg was around 1640nm. This route is full of potential poor weather, long diversions (if needed), long STARS in Japan and being held down in Russia. Combine this with ISA+10/+20 deg for the climb and headwinds and we consider 1640mn is the most we plan with certainty. 1000lbs is an absolute minimum for this type of route. I prefer more fuel for these routes (compared with flying at home) not less. 400 lbs would be, in opinion, far too low.

The longest leg with have flown is 1977nm with good tailwinds (circa 50kts) and this is going straight to FL450 and operating at absolute optimum SFC. We landed with 1100lbs, so no problem.

The aircraft does perform a little better than book, but conditions are never perfect and you have to consider the emergency descent scenario.

I hope that helps!

[nomorecatering]

Much thanks to Spider and CE-Jockey for your very informative replies, and the infu is duly noted.
What is the go with temporary fuel systems, is the installation complex, expensive, can it be done in a way that it can be easily installed and removed on an as required basis.

I had a look at the Sierra website, they do have many interesting mods including a 120 USG tank thats installed behind the lav. seems though they have only persued the 500 series so far. Would be interesting to see what they could do with the CJ range of jets.

The other option is to go for the Stallion Super S-11, Williams engines, long range tanks, winglets and a 2300nm range.

Some questions re the CJ3 for curiosity sake,
Would an extra 120 USG make all the difference and allow a comfortable margin....particularly in the 1Eng inop or depressurisatin situation.

What is the taxi fuel allowance, and what fuel flow do ou have on taxi.

Can you give me the max range climb profile, just currios why a climb directly to FL450 at max weight is the most efficient, I would have though 450 initially would be somewhat above optimum level. Obviously a 1 enigine inop or depresurisation scanerio would be.........well interesting.

Fuel flow at FL 450 when heavy and when very light.
In the 500 series I understand that on decent the thrust levers are not at flight idle, must be somewhat above that above 13,000 to maintain door seal inflation. Is the CJ3 the same. Also the decent schedule would be helpfull.
I;d be able to wok it out for myself if I had a copy of the Pilots Operating Handbook but I have no idea where to get one.

For a short hop of say 50 nm, CAVOK or CAVU in the US, conditions what would be the lowest fuel load you would take, would you still go for the 1100 lbs in tanks.

As far as cruise, how is power set, i know the Cj3 has T/O climb and cruise detents and the FADEC system sets the power, but in cruise, how do you tell it how fast you want to go. can you input a TAS mach no into the FMS and it will automaically maintain that speed for you, or is the power set and what ever sped you get is what you get.

The Sino SJ30 Jet looked to be the bees knees for the personal aviator but it appears to be dying a slow death.
Crampt cockpit is no problem, my contact has circled the globe many times in a Mooney so 15 hr legs in a cramped cockpit sharing a ferry tank is pretty much ops normal for him.

Why you may ask would anyone want to do this, who know. Beats sitting at home and wasting away and sitting in the back of a GV would be rather boring.

Lastly could anyone provide me with the websites for the temporary fuel tank people, would be interested to have a look.

Much appreciate all your valuable info, the advice here will be taken.

[CJ Driver]

I think you will struggle to find anyone who offers a "temporary" ferry tank for any model of CJ, because there's simply no demand for it. Since you can get from pretty much any one point on the planet to any other point without needing one - by simply going a slightly longer route and stopping for gas - there's no commercial benefit in developing a ferry solution.

In answer to your other point, our operation often ends up positioning between two airports 40 miles apart. If the weather is CAVOK at both airports, and we've copied the destination ATIS before we even start engines, and there's nothing negative being reported, and there are no delays, we will launch with as little as 1100 pounds of fuel - but we do feel a bit like we are living on the edge as we do it, and we would never do that with passengers.

But, in the words of the proverb about old pilots and bold pilots - I'm old!

[spider123]

I can't help you with the Fuel Tank modification, would prefer to stop more often myself!

However send me a PM with your email address and I can sort you out with the correct data the rest.