BMI Crewing

[Big Tudor]

BMI Crewing seem to be getting one hell of a slating over on Terms & Endearment but no-one rising to the challenge. Anyone care to confirm / deny the opinions being levelled.

[euroboy]

When its the truth you cannt!

[fsp2001]

Oi Euroboy

I think it's more a case of the mindless postings not really warranting a reply. How often do you ever hear Crewing getting praised - oh yes, I remember, whenever you get that important day off or get rostered on that favourite nightstop. And when do Crewing get slated the most? Why of course - whenever you don't get that day off or that nighstop. What a fantastically accurate and not-at-all biased way of measuring efficiency and performance.

Crewing will always get bad press as they are seen as the bearers of bad news. I guess then that they'll have to keep on giving out the bad news (4 sector Glasgows instead of 4 sector Edinburghs? - you poor thing) and leave such educated industry commentators as yourself to gauge how well or badly they are doing.

Oh, and if anyone suggests to you that Crewing are there to allocate the company's resource in an efficient and cost effective manner I'm sure (in between pouring tea and coffee) you'll put them straight about that - everyone knows they are there just to look after YOUR roster. (Now wouldn't THAT be efficient)

[prune]

Here here......

If Crewing departments didn't spend all their time listening to whinging, hard done to crews they may be more efficient!!

Euroboy, stick to wot u noe...

[Little Blue]

Hear hear again !!
I am a colleague and friend of "Airframe Vibration" and he was steaming when he read the "intelligent " comments from Euroboy...ditto !!
What role do u think crewing play within the day-day running of the airline?
Do u believe that they spend their time with their thumbs up their butts trying to think of ways to screw the flt deck/cabin crew?
If you have a problem with yr own roster, see yr Duty Manager..
To work in day-day crewing is a pretty thankless task, made more difficult by those who don't want to listen.
No-one is perfect, but do not think that they are out to get you...
I suggest that you ask to pay a visit to Toad Hall so that you can start to see life from the other side of the fence..
Oh, and I'm not crewing, not that it matters, but try not to be so anal... u may find that u like it! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[vistabena]

Well said little Blue and Airframe Vibs , Majority of crews are quite understanding of Ops/Crewing role in disruptions. Its only a few that jump up and down demanding to stay on trip or can't understand that a u/s aircraft is their problem.

[euroboy]

Well after 11 years of bmi crewing, I can make judgement. I know crew (mainly based LHR) who left bmi because of crewing there. I must say day to day were ok with me whilst there and I did em favours. And deals struck. There was only 1 person who had trouble grasping the idea that if you needed helping out you have to offer something in return. But being based at BHX we got left alone some what.
At LHR the roster (apart from the days off) was excellent bog paper, because the roster changed so often in that week. True? You were rostered early AMS but now we want you do late BFS.

I`ve left now (1998) 2 airlines on, bmi rosters (LHR) had more changes than current airline and previous to bmi. Sorry guys it true.
Believe cabin crew 89 got involved to help roster stablity.

You guys still hand writting them rosters? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: euroboy ]</p>

[Little Blue]

Euroboy
.
I understand yr frustration at roster changes at the last minute, but, in an ideal world (!!), with no last minnte sickness, no AOG a/c, no liac, wx diversions, acts of god and whatever.....
U get my drift?
If u can persuade the big pilot in the sky to get the airlines running to schedule, then yr rosters will NEVER change...!!
Were u EMA-based as well...??..Narrows it down a lot!
Reckon I've got u sussed !!

[euroboy]

Thats the thing. What do you call a last minute roster change. That day? The day before? It never bothered me that much, but I saw and ended up having to deal with the aftermath of crewing`s roster changes on a daily bases with other crew who had change after change after change in 1 week, and they had been pushed to the point where they resigned the next day.
How about the 11.00 SBY and at 10.50 you are rung and told you are needed for a nightflight that night so you aren`t on SBY anymore?
I was never talking about the change of destination ie 4 sector EDI to 4 sector GLA. I`m talking about the early finish rostered to you say 14.00 and now you are finishing at 22.30 that type of change. The phone call on your day off, telling you that you aren`t reporting at 14.00 on your first day back but now 06.00 on your first day back, which then changes the whole weeks roster.
I know you got crew ringing in coz the cats puked up over the carpet, and the next doors dog had eaten their mothers buggie. So yes you do get stupid calls.
But bmi or BM was known for bad roster stablity.

Don`t think you do have me sussed
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Is J(?) still on desks?
I loved the A3 size roster and pencil days myself. It was the phone call from crewing "Where are you?" :)

Never EMA!

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: euroboy ]</p>

[Little Blue]

Well she's still here, but not D-D...
Hmmm....well we thought we had you..
.
I spend a lot of time in Crew Dispatch, and I do see a fair amount of roster disruption, but it is nearly always down to "last-minute"..(there's that phrase again !) illness, tech, missing crew etc etc...
Of course, u do get the odd bad apple in every dept, but I know that everyone in current crewing work there butts off to avoid disruption at any level....
.
Off to abuse some cabin crew, now !!
........only kidding !

[euroboy]

So in BD ops and crewing; the guessing game will continue <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Never guess :)

Hey one things for sure we got this thread moving <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

See bit of criticism works wonders!

[Big Tudor]

Euroboy

A plan is only as good as the current situation. A change may be passed onto a crew member in the honest belief that it is the best way to cover the flying program with the available crew. However, enter another sickie, another tech delay, another wx diversion into the equation and the plan goes to a bag of cack. Also, there are few computer systems on the market that will track a crew members changes, and even if you have such a system it is often to long winded to go in and find out. You will often get a situation where two crew get changed onto each others duties over a period of days. Add to this the complexities of working with multiple aircraft types and crew and the problems very quickly become insurmountable. I'm sure that any crewing bod will tell you that they do not do changes on a whim. Every change you receive has been caused by any one (or more) of the reasons already stated.
Put your name forward to your manager as a volunteer to spend a couple of hours in crewing, preferably during a summer weekend. I'm sure you will be unpleasantly surprised at the problems that are faced.
Likewise, I would recommend any crewing bods spend some time in the crewrooms and, if poss, on fam flights. Getting to know people goes a long way in dispelling animosity.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Big Tudor
Nicely said.
Its been a well known fact amongst the Airlines that Bmi crews get a good deal out of their Crewing Dept, advanced rosters for one (albeit they change). Its also a well known fact they struggled finding a system that could cope with their operation. Multiple aircraft, bases etc. As Big T said, once those rosters get changed to plan B,then get changed back to plan A its very difficult to go back to square one.

I think sometimes they miss "experience",its also well known that the Crewing Management structure is extremely young, and consists of people that only know the Bmi way. Thats not to say there is anything wrong with that, but Bmi have always struggled to bring experience in as the wages are not brilliant, and any experience has to start at the bottom of the ladder.If you compare this to other Airlines, some movement does take place. Monarch Staff to Brits,Brits to Easy?,Air 2 to JMC and so on.
At the end of the day the real reason why Crewing get a bad press from Bmi crews is they have to work harder than most, and we all know what crews think about working hard.....
<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[sky9]

Euroboy,

I doubt whether phoning at 1050 to take you off a 1100 Sby is legal.

There is no doubt that roster stability is not only in the long-term interest of the pilot but also the airline. Some airlines have discovered that they have saved money by getting the roster stable and putting in block standby's.

If all fails get caller ID and don't answer the phone until you are either on Standby or close to leaving home. Alternately get a pay as you go mobile.
<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[RosteringMonkey]

Why wouldn't being taken off 10 minutes before standby be legal? Being asked to do a standby 10 minutes before it starts may be.
Same goes for the night flight - as long as you're given the required rest beforehand, where's the problem? May be a bit of a sh*t to deal with, but it'd still be legal if you've got 11 hours to go rest.
Obviously don't try and promote this kind of thing at our place but if it's required, it happens.

RM

[euroboy]

Interesting reading. I`ve sat in Ops Crewing with two of the airlines I worked for, including bmi.
Its not the people in bmi crewing ops, but Mr Angry <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> somes it up well. bmi management never spends quite enough money on systems, equipment. They are very good at looking after the pax (important I agree) but when I comes to the crews and other staff they don`t quite get it right. How many computer systems has bmi looked at over the years? And when I left I was still getting hand written rosters, and LHR crews may of well been handed a blank sheet of paper, only with their days off on it.
The 2 other airlines I have worked for both used computerised systems. 1 was similar to CityFlyer`s system and the other the worlds fav. They don`t have the same problems that bmi had or have.
bmi have always been towards the bottom of the pay scales of airlines. Flight pay being £1.07ph when I left in 98, (although I hear they are paying more sensible figure these days) so it is difficult to keep crews.
I shall never forget managements answer to the cabin crew based at LHR a few years back regarding flight pay, which was "we are a Midlands based airline not a London based to we cannot pay these sorts of figures".

It can been seen what cabin crew 89 has done regarding crewing problems in bmi.

<a href="http://www.cc89.org" target="_blank">www.cc89.org</a>

see bmi section

I will now go back to what I know best, pouring tea and coffee <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

ps. For those who are sitting with their thumbs up there buts, may I remind you to wash well before sucking them. It don`t taste nice otherwise <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: euroboy ]</p>

[sky9]

RM

The SRG has just modified CAP371 to stop rostering monkeys driving a coach and horses through the SPIRIT of a document that is there to minimise fatigue. If the revised programme cannot be carried out within the requirements of CAP371 from the beginning of the standby period it must surely be considered FATIGING. Your actions would be looked at very carefully after an incident (and there have been a few recently where fatigue has been a factor)

Can I remind you that a man is spending 6 years(actually 3) in prison for falling asleep while driving a car. Remember that the person whose roster you are changing is going to be "driving" with anything up to 350 passengers behind him. Start taking the job of rostering seriously: Safety is always supposed to be a the first priority - put it were it belongs.

[fireflybob]

Of course what we should all be aiming for is a win/win situation.

All this sort of talk is a symptom of lack of resources and/or poor management - don't shoot the messenger!!

On the question of being called at 1050 to cancel a standby starting at 1100 and then be put on a night flight I would have thought that being called at 1050 constitutes having your rest interrupted prior to the standby. This effectively means that you have been on duty and therefore require minimum rest before the next duty which might put you out of hours for the night flight.

There are times where organisations such as airlines rely on the goodwill of their employees. This is ok if it happens on an occasional basis but when it happens all the time people, quite naturally, get a bit peeved about it.

[peterc]

Having read and inwardly digested the comments by several so called aviation profesionals,I am astonished that there are still morons out there who consider that the crewing departments only function is to screw up their lives.We all have a job to do,and some of us suffer from bad management,commercial pressure and lack of resources.Because you have a problem with crewing/rostering why bleet about it in this forum,take it up with your line management or polits committee or union,but for gods sake grow up

[pdalla]

I used to work in BD crewing (it was that long ago) and apart from the fun & games with the 'heathrow shuffle' which was aimed at getting pax out on time and stopping BA pinching them, I recall occasions like an F/O who would call up and say the cat had been run over and the missus very upset so he couldn't do the evening Belfast !! So that's why you sometimes get daft calls at 1050 ahead of an 1100 standby....

[AirOpsOne]

Crewing is and always will be the one department that everyone now complains about you cannot win. Here we have a policy as part of crew training they spend 5 days in Ops and 5 days in crewing before they are released to line and all Ops/crewing staff must do at least 6 sectors a year to see the big picture. This policy works a treat.
My only criticism that I hate is the ""I will be fatigued to do that I live a three hour’s drive away from my base can I have a taxi or a hotel.....some guy has gone to prison for driving without sleep don`t ya know"" Hmmmmmm move house then.

[Disruptive]

I'm a travel agent, yes madam (Purser) where would you like to go today??? HKG, CDG, SYD, JNB.. .Oh you don't fancy working today !!! Take the day then.