Is this a standard appr at Faroe Islands ?

[readywhenreaching]

today french football team flew in at Vaga Airport, Faroe Islands for their Euro 08 qualifying match. According to pic, their 146 appered make a very unstable landing approach.. Is this normal a procedure there ?

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/071013/ids_photos_sp/r2623301446.jpg

[Been Accounting]

Vagar is very very special!

[Avman]

I'm interested in knowing how that picture tells you that the approach was unstable. Please explain.

[flyvirgin]

From what i can see (but what do i no) that the aircraft is tilting to the left hand side. it dont look like rudder it looks like aileons movement???

[flyvirgin]

or it could be the way the photos been taken.
who knows

[el #]

Don't know the a/c, but what is unstable is the residency of this thread in R&N, as caring hands shall move it soon :)
Jokes apart... nice picture.

[Rainboe]

Look flyvirgin, before you go any further with the pilot thing, work on your literacy- seriously, try rereading your contributions! You commented you wouldn't like to comment, then did, twice, meaninglessly.

Where you take a picture from and with whatever telephoto affects the outcome, so let's stop criticising- we have no idea of the conditions at the time.

[WaterMeths]

Hey Rainboe !!

I was totally shocked by this report actually, I mean - France winning 6-0 !!! I didn't think they had it in them any more .....;)

[DTY/LKS]

Read in the paper today that the aircraft held for an hour over the Faroes but couldn't land due to fog. It then diverted to EGPD to refuel. Then tried again but ended up diverting to somewhere in Norway, and then onto the Faroes when the weather cleared. So maybe the approach could have been interesting.

The above info is from an well known english tabloid, so must be the truth!!!!

[Rainboe]

It's outrageous- I mean talk about leaning over on one side only, uneven, very dodgy, amazing ending, but a win helped make up for losing the rugby.

[BOAC]

As one who has experienced the turbulence in Vagar (which puts Funchal into the shade) I would say the picture looks slightly 'photoshopped' but quite believable.

[broadreach]

Wheee! BOAC, if that's photoshopped I'll have a bite of my hat; until then it's doffed about the same cm as the gentleman/lady flying it on might have loosened his/her tie afterwards. C'mon Rainboe, at least now we know what "aileons" might be for. :rolleyes:

[BOAC]

Just thought I'd get that in before Rainboe:)

[Jonny Foreigner]

Gear appears down, flaps deployed, clearly got right aileron imput to correct the roll, probably caused by mixing from the high ground to their right. Cant comment on speed.

Dont bash the geezers, the pax probably did that amongst themselves as they walloped it in!!!! :bored:

[flying phil 2007]

http://www.slv.dk/Dokumenter/dscgi/ds.py/View/Collection-410

interesting approach plates:eek:

(sponsored by Diocalm :})

[Comte Roller]

a link to a video of the landing.
http://www.eurosport.fr/football/telefoot/2007-2008/mcplayervideo_vid54371.shtml

[Mister Geezer]

Can't you be stable in a turn??? :}

Anyway... this is not a problem for the BAe146/Avro RJ family. Vagar is by no means the only approach which looks like this. Look at Sumburgh on Runway 33 which will result in something looking similar!!!

[Rainboe]

Sumburgh 33- I remember it well! You had to approach visually on base leg to the lighthouse on top of the hill that obstructed the straight-in approach. As close as you could, then follow the hill slope down as you turned onto final. Sometimes you felt you 'overcooked it' and passed far closer to the lighthouse or hillside than you intended. Reminded one of the HKG 13 IGS. The point is, a cameraman who was a Pprune spy in those days could easily have gotten photographs that would have got you crucified here with 'unstable approaches', 'bank close to the ground' (try less than 50'), 'wing waggling' etc. Vagar looks like a place than deserves 'respec'! Bit unfair to start criticising the crew.

[Alpine Flyer]

I can still remember the turbulence warnings from sorting Vagar into my father's Bottlang Airfield Manual as a teenager. It was one of the more exciting plates although I knew we'd probably never get there. The photo doesn't look alarming to me.

[broadreach]

Don't think anybody intended criticism. I certainly have the greatest respect for anyone who does this day in, day out.

Re Sumburgh 33, YouTube have a few Saab flight deck videos nicely illustrating Rainboe's comments.

[forget]

'readywhenreaching' - you said "their 146 appeared make a very unstable landing approach.. "

Your Profile web site says;

' JACDEC ', this abbreviation stands for Jet Airliner Crashes Evaluation Centre. We provide professional aviation safety information for the benefit of passengers, journalists and the aviation industry. We collect every possible information which can shed light about specific accidents and aviation safety background in general. Therefore we have established an extensive accident data base xx which will be updated by us as often as possible. A lot of companies benefit from JACDEC safety information products. Check our xx for a list.

'readywhenreaching', could you please provide a 'Jet Airliner Crashes Evaluation Centre' definition for 'very unstable landing approach'. Thank you.

[flown-it]

Hey Jonny.
Walloped and 146 are not synonymous when it comes to landing. The trailing link gear means that you can throw the thing on the deck and the SLF come up and say best landing ever!!! The 146 ( AKA limey liner in the USA) does what it was designed to do ...STOL. And it does it very well.

[BOAC]

In 'defence' of the crew (if indeed needed), I have flown several times into Sumburgh and Funchal, and once into Vagar. Vagar was the only place that frightened me due to the turbulence on the final approach, and not the fact that the met man screwed up and left me with a below limits Vagar and nowhere else to go (past PNR). I was told that SAS who operated a schedule there in a DC9 (I think) often threw away the ILS approach due to excessive turbulence and diverted.

[ABUKABOY]

Do try and find the videos of the 33 approach at Sumburgh. Did my own stint as F/O and Capt on DC-3's and Viscounts in the 70's up there, and can well attest to the character-building qualities of the lighthouse flyby and split-$%*# turn, levelling the wings just before (Viscount) or at or after (DC-3) touchdown, mostly in low cloud and very uncooperative winds, all before or during the building of the cross-runway.
Another company up there, Air Freight, on oily contracts like us, had one old boy who quite often brought his DC-3 straight in OVER the hill. Now that WAS something to behold! When questioned about this, he explained that he brought his Hudson in like that during WWII, and saw no reason not to do so now. Wonder what the SLF thought!
You've got to have seen this it to appreciate it, eh Rainboe!

[Nipper1011]

The turbulence at Vagar tends to be experienced on Fjord approaches. This looks to me like a pretty standard waterfall approach, rolling out of the final turn over the threshold. The RAF used to operate amphibious aircraft off the lake above the waterfall during WW2. A very challenging place to fly if the weather is less than perfect.

[UKpaxman]

Another company up there, Air Freight, on oily contracts like us, had one old boy who quite often brought his DC-3 straight in OVER the hill. Now that WAS something to behold! When questioned about this, he explained that he brought his Hudson in like that during WWII, and saw no reason not to do so now. Wonder what the SLF thought!
You've got to have seen this it to appreciate it, eh Rainboe!

Maersk apparently brought a 737 in over the hill onto 33 twice, once mid 70's and again in the early 80's. Both were diverts from Faroe. This was discussed elsewhere on another thread. I've been a pax on a 146 into 33 past the lighthouse - impressive:ok:

Must be summit to do with the weather up that way - Sumburgh, straight:ooh: in on 09, looks a bit like the 146 in Faroe

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0048465/M/

[Anti-ice]

:eek: :uhoh: :eek:

[A Nonny Mouse]

i always thought that Vagar was a challenging approach and stated so on one of the London City threads, but stood corrected by someone whose opinion it was that it is not in the same difficulty league as London City.
There is always someone ready to jump on your opinion in these forums.
Maybe someone who operates into both could comment (any atlantic pilots?)

[BOAC]

Well, when they build huge rock pillars on the approach at LCY and get winds of 60-80 kts I guess they will be right.:ugh:

[Rainboe]

Well, when they build huge rock pillars on the approach at LCY
They did- they're called 'Canary Wharf'! But without the winds!

Coming past the Sumburgh lighthouse, I used to have a look at what was growing in the pretty tended garden (right hand seat in those days!). I always imagined there was a crusty old lighthouseman with a white 'Captain Birdseye' beard making himself a cup of tea when a 748 thundered by 50' away, saucepans rattling and him hanging onto the table until the shaking stopped. But even the darn rabbits took no notice of us.

In the morning you could look out of the rest house there at this scene of deep blue skies, sun shining on blue water, green grass leading down to wonderful beach with yellow sand. Just straight out of a Bounty advert, a scene from a Caribbean island. All that was missing was palm trees, because the temperature was below freezing, and there were seal heads swimming around!

I've strayed off subject again, haven't I? The breakfast up there was something to behold though.

[BOAC]

I've strayed off subject again, haven't I? The breakfast up there was something to behold though - joining you! Not as good as Flotta.:)

[TheOddOne]

I did the Vagar waterfall approach earlier this year... in a PA28!

Very 'interesting'. There's a specific wind report at 850' as well as surface, but that wasn't much use to us as we were 'visual' and the cloud was well under 800'.

We flew from Stornoway and the PNR at best range speed, leaned out, was more or less overhead Vagar, so we would have had to divert to Scatsca after one go-around.

The waterfall approach with a low cloudbase feels a bit like flying into a tunnel, it's an act of faith if you've never been there before (as I hadn't) - only the info on the plate to go by. It all worked well, though, quite turbulent under the cloud but I guess I'd got used to being bucked around having flown IMC Denham-Carlisle, then Carlisle-Stornoway.

Nice for a day trip with a difference.

Having got as far as Vagar, Iceland didn't seem too far away...


TheOddOne

[remoak]

Many happy memories of the "lighthouse 1A" approach onto 33 at Sumburgh. I seem to remember driving flocks of sheep down the ridge towards the Sumburgh Hotel. Must have been a little low... not quite as low as some of the BAF Viscount boys though. And then there was the ATP that dug a wingtip in just after takeoff, and lived to tell the tale. I flew into Scatsta many times (before they lengthened it) and that was a challenge on a bad day. Did five years into LCY and more recently some time in Vagar. One isn't harder than the other, they are just different. The approaches into Vagar are harder in some ways, and the turbulence can be nasty, but the waterfall approach is great fun on a reasonable day. Coming up the fjord can be a test on a windy day... had to climb once to get back up to the runway after an encounter with turbulence. All character-building stuff, but you have to wonder how long it will be before somebody misjudges the place and has an incident.

[BOAC]

had to climb once to get back up to the runway after an encounter with turbulence. - me too! ATC actually asked me if I was intending to climb up to land.:) I guess it is a 'standard line' there.

[GearDown&Locked]

...unless you're trying to land at something like Courchevel (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0143885&size=L&width=1024&height=780&sok=&photo_nr=&prev_id=&next_id=) :eek::uhoh::ooh:

GD&L:ok:

[Lberto]

As a SLF I recently flew to Faroe and the approach was very bumpy until the very end , and after touch down the Bae 146 (or Avro RJ 100) has shown excellent STOL characteristics.:)

[JW411]

Well then folks, "readywhenreaching" seems to have rigged himself for silent running. It would seem that despite his huge professional interest in safety matters that he is struck dumb all of a sudden.

Vagar has always been a very challenging airport and Atlantic Airways do a fine job.

As far as I can remember, their only problem at Vagar was an overrun about 15 years ago. One of my mates flew the replacement bits up there in another 146 and the aeroplane involved is still flying around quite happily as far as I am aware.

I get the impression that "readywhenreaching" was just sh*t-stirring with his opening post and, with his total lack of experience of this sort of flying, was hoping to make a name for himself.

Do any of you out there remember landing in Bait al Falaj? That was another interesting experience. I remember one of my trainees describing it as "a cheeky little strip possessed of a certain boldness".

By the way "readywhenreaching", I have 20 years of experience of flying the BAe146 and I, for one, am still eagerly awaiting your report into how this was an unstable approach in the circumstances.

[silverknapper]

It's certainly a challenging place, but remember atlantic go in every day in RJ's. It certainly puts 33 at LSI to shame!!! Anytime I have been in I have always found their guys very helpful and informative, always ready with good advice on any of the visual approach routes. the departure is also tricky due the required S/E climb gradient which several turboprops struggle to reach. On a nice day though it. Re the 850 ft wind it.s worth noting that even a 10 knot wind from the wrong direction gives severe turbulence in which even Atlantic wouldn't attempt an approach.

[Fokkerwokker]

Do any of you out there remember landing in Bait al Falaj?

By the time I pitched up out there Seeb was the new 'all singing-all dancing' airport but it was little better than a cart track to get to it from town. However I do recall looking down on Bait al Falaj from Fokkers and Skyvans thinking it must have been sporting. Believe Gulf Aviation flew the BAC 1-11s into there? They were hardly drunk with power so that must have been sporting if that was the case.

I used to jog along the old runway during the cooler months.

Oooops thread drift.

Sorrrrrrreeeeeeeeee!!

FW
:ok:

[JW411]

Gulf did indeed squeeze the 1-11 in there (after the strip had been covered in concrete).

[Caudillo]

I took a look through some of his other posts - I'm not even sure if he's a native English speaker, and a pilot he certainly isn't. Just someone with an unhealthy interest in aircraft crashes.

By the way "readywhenreaching", I have 20 years of experience of flying the BAe146 and I, for one, am still eagerly awaiting your report into how this was an unstable approach in the circumstances.

Perhaps a bit unfair IMHO leave the hounding to someone else

[Cpt. Chaos]

Anybody any thoughts, on someone putting a J41 in there on a regular basis, like twice a day, 6 days of the week..? :eek: :confused: :{
Sorry for it being slightly off thread..

[The Flying Pram]

A bit off-thread as well, but in '96 I found myself as SLF in an early model 737 landing at Queenstown N.Z. From a PPL's perspective I thought that was a bit erm... interesting!!

[silverknapper]

Re putting J41 in.

Don't see why not - you got any reason for querying it?
I assume you talking about Eastern and BP. No reason not too - the place can be Wx limiting and you would probably struggle to fill the airplane but as long as everyone is well briefed no bother. Highland used to go in the 31 very frequently, and still do occasionally.

[Bae 146 Driver]

Well, this was not a waterfall approach, but a LLZ 13 offset (14 degrees)
After breaking out at minima (412 agl) the pilot did a right turn towards the runway and than had to correct with a left turn to align with the runway.