Pilot Shortage message spreads

[Roller Merlin]

From Melbourne Age

Shortage of pilots hits airline industry
Scott Rochfort
October 13, 2007

THE shortage of pilots across Australia has become so acute some airlines are being forced to scour the former Eastern Bloc for recruits, while others are being forced to reduce the number of routes they fly.
After blaming Qantas, Jetstar and Virgin Blue for "raiding" regional airlines, flying schools and aviation businesses, the country's second-largest regional airline, Rex, became so desperate it sent its chief pilot to Ukraine in July to look for recruits.
"We did not have a lot of luck. We did have a problem with language," said the airline's chief of staff, Jim Davis, noting the airline would look for pilots in English-speaking countries.
With the shortage being blamed on the growth of airlines in Australia and Asia, some aviation businesses have closed.
Mr Davis said Rex had lost 20 per cent of its pilots in the past three months to larger airlines, compared to the 18 per cent that left last financial year. Rex says its pilot shortage had lifted its cancellation rates to four times historic levels and it will have to stop flying on some routes if the problem continues.
He predicted 1800 airline pilots would be needed in the next two years to keep up with Australia's airline industry. On average, only 380 airline pilot licences are granted each year.
Qantas estimates it will need 300 pilots in the next two years. Jetstar says it will need 200. Virgin Blue, which has 561, says it will "need several hundred" more over the next five years.
Australian Federation of Air Pilots industrial relations manager Lawrie Cox said within the next year some airlines would not be able to service smaller routes in regional and remote areas.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Strange how one airline can blame other airlines for 'raiding' third party organizations for qualified staff. And the naivety of expecting foreign pilots from totally different cultures to fit the mold is amazing, as language is only the immediately apparent issue. Their different ways of understanding, expectations and behaviours in our local environment is a major risk.

Methinks the poaching of qualified pilots instead of having training programs to grow them is fast coming to an end.
RM

[Jet_A_Knight]

fter blaming Qantas, Jetstar and Virgin Blue for "raiding" regional airlines, flying schools and aviation businesses, the country's second-largest regional airline, Rex, became so desperate it sent its chief pilot to Ukraine in July to look for recruits.

"We did not have a lot of luck. We did have a problem with language," said the airline's chief of staff, Jim Davis, noting the airline would look for pilots in English-speaking countries.

When you offer up a ****e sandwich to people, you should not be surprised when they don't partake!:rolleyes:

Imagine preferring to take your chances in an over-loaded, beaten up old AN12 with a gaffa-taped on VFR GPS doing home-made GPS NPA's! There's stacks more money to be made with 'un-manifested' freight - where there's space. :E

Even Eastern Bloc pilots won't touch these guys with a barge pole.

PAY UP & RESPECT YOUR CREWS - OR GET OUT OF THE GAME :ugh::ugh:

[The Bunglerat]

I recently made this comment on another thread, and can only say it again:

T & C issues aside, when there are plenty of suitably qualified (and interested) local applicants, e.g. older GA guys with lots of multi - even turbine experience - and REX aren't so much as even inviting them for an interview (let alone accepting or rejecting them after the fact), then they are their own worst enemies - and are simply cutting their own nose to spite their face.

I find it interesting that I kept a file with REX for years and never heard so much as a peep from them. As it turns out, I've moved beyond the regionals anyway, thus REX would be a step backwards. Even so, not one invite, and I personally know guys out there who would still be willing to have a go - and nothing for them either.

As numerous others have also said recently: Reap what you sow...

[Paper Planes]

Well said Bunglerat.

REX really want to avoid paying pilots what they are worth at all costs, even if it involves sinking their own Airline.

It is so ridiculous that they went to the Ukraine looking for pilots when there are older pilots in Australia that would work for them if they improved the T & C. Looking for foreign pilots that have limited english speaking ability or trying to entrap young naïve ones with large training loans that will take forever to pay back on REX wages is shameful conduct.

As Jet A Knight said

PAY UP & RESPECT YOUR CREWS - OR GET OUT OF THE GAME :ugh::ugh:

[Andu]

Looking for foreign pilots that have limited English speaking abilityIt's a tradition for Australian airlines stemming from that-year-we-dare-not-mention-here. I know I'll be shouted down by some for saying it, but the whole sorry mess that is the Australian Aviation industry today stems from that-year-we-dare-not-mention-here.

[MinimaNoContact]

Just to keep things even and to see the flip side of the coin - In the last 8 months, I've had interview offers from Virgin, Jetstar and Cathay (not one update in over 2 yrs). I haven't even looked at updating with companies like Rex, Skippers, Skywest and Eastern for who knows how long and they all offered interviews too.

I guess its always the way when you arent looking, they call!

For those looking, it is only a matter of time.
These days, you probably know someone that can put your name forward or send an email on your behalf. Pick up the phone yourself, its not hard and it might be that simple to get your name to the top of that decreasing pile of CVs.

[Spaz Modic]

:} Now there's a joke. The airlines and operators might want pilots but think they can still pay a peanut butter sandwich in salary. The old syndrome that pilots will fly for peanuts because they love it is one which will take a while to disappear. The Prune pages are filled with whinges about salaries, but little as to why this is the case, and what pilots are prepared to do to rectify it. One major reason is that the gold braid under the white rat covers a head filled with a superiority complex. Generally pilots have been treated like necessary trash by airline execs for years, while being the very source of confidence in airline ops by the majority of the bums on the seats behind them. A shortage of pilots really gets up their collective nostrils, and the biggest fear they have is that if the people they love to hate ever get bold enough to industrially act to get paid what they are worth, they will have to acquiesce or lose big bucks for the shareholders.:)

[Flight Me]

Seems from where I am standing there is an abundance of Pilots. Some are interested in Jets others in Turbo props. I guess retention at the breeding grounds comes down to the conditions. There are people who actually enjoy the flying that the Regionals have to offer, but if your going to get screwed every day then why not get some more cash for it.

Very interesting times. :}

[Outkast]

Going to the Ukraine looking for pilots.

God that is so funny! :}

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

When you get to the Ukraine you'll find all the pilots have already gone to Ryanair..:} Honest!!

Blue Foot

[ScottyDoo]

They should be going to the Ukraine and Eastern Bloc looking for hosties to replace the tired old hags already here... :p

:ok:





It's a tradition for Australian airlines stemming from that-year-we-dare-not-mention-here

Yep. Bring back the extra crew seat for the Translator.

[compressor stall]

Can anyone think of an English speaking country with any significant amount of English speaking pilots that would want to work for REX?

[ScottyDoo]

South Africa.

Zimbabwe.

[Mr. Hat]

Bunglerat - didn't hear a peep out of them either. It was back in the day when a SAAB was like the spaceship.

Ukrainians could problably teach a few of these clowns how to run their business.

Time to pay and treat the remainding pilots/staff very well or it'll be over kiddo.

I like the point about the experienced turbine older guys still flying in the bush that aren't getting a look in...its okay they'll be picked up by airlines in the not to distant future.

Arrogance is strange behaviour when you're on the back foot... Must be too many years of that pilot tree being so full that it has actually brainwashed people into thinking they are invincible.

[Andu]

I flew recently with Jet* and the captain was in his early thirties, the FO, by the look of him, probably around 50. I think this will be come more and more common as the airlines take on people whose CVs were automatically binned two years ago by the office girl.

I'm not in Australia, but the same thing is happening with my current employer. They're even sending out letters asking people they knocked back two years ago asking them to re-apply, and taking people with no jet time, where as little as a year ago, you needed 2000 hours jet to get your CV past the office boy.

Earlier this year, an FO resigned immediately after completing his conversion course. Six months later, the grass wasn't quite as green at home as he remembered it, so he re-applied to return. He was accepted. A year ago, he wouldn't have had a snowflake's chance in hell of being taken back.

[Metro man]

After Eastern Europe next stop South America, then Indonesia or Nigeria. How low do these guys want to go ? At least the upcoming English test should weed out a few potential candidates.

Ah yes, I remember the days when getting into Kendells was like astronaut selection. That stupid exam with a wizz wheel that no one could finish in the allotted time. All the candidates with ATPL and thousands of hours multi and turbine time, some with jet time, sitting up and begging like dogs for a right seat on a Saab. Super choosey interviewers chopping people for the slightest thing to whittle the numbers down to a managable level.

Well guys the boot is well and truely on the other foot now. You've got to offer a decent package to attract us.:E

People will move up the food chain, but now it's a case of paying enough so people not quite ready for QF/VB/J* are doing their waiting time flying your aircraft rather than someone elses. Also those that are happy with a career in the regionals can afford to buy a house and a decent car.

[KRUSTY 34]

You know,

Back in May this year I posted that if managements do not move quickly to improve T&C's they will lose their airlines.

I sincerely hoped that I was wrong.

Problem is, it seems to be shaping up even worse than I suspected!:uhoh:

[jafa]

I'm with you scotty doo - that coming wave of eastern bloc girls which is going to change western society totally and forever - our current distaff won't

[Mr. Hat]

Ah thats the way - can't find any australians willing to work for that salary so target people from impoverished countries - pay them nothing treat em like crap - send em home and give our country the worst name ever.

Metroman -Whizz wheel - i do recall being heavily berated for not carrying a whiz wheel on a flight with another tprop operator. Was back in the days when you had to appear for an interview anywhere in australia inside 24 hrs if you wanted the job ad if you didn't you "just weren't keen enough".

[Barramundi]

QUOTE: THE BUNGLERAT

"T & C issues aside, when there are plenty of suitably qualified (and interested) local applicants, e.g. older GA guys with lots of multi - even turbine experience - and REX aren't so much as even inviting them for an interview"

Hooray and well said !! But lets not stop there, how about this discussion be elevated to the major players in our industry - the airlines - who quiet frankly are the most guilty of this practice of simply and conveniently overlooking the older (45+) pilots in this country whilst hiding behind a rather dodgy set of excuses as to why olders pilots are unattractive to them.

Is the overlooking of older pilots for airline positions a figment of my imagination or not when I continually read in forums such as pprune examples of well qualified high time GA pilots in their 40's who have applied for our countries airlines and hear nothing whilst those they work with who are new to the industry and younger are whisked off to interviews with the airlines and get the jobs.

Over the past few weeks older pilots raising this very issue in pprune have been met with varying and often bitter responses from lesser time pilots only too eager to bypass GA have too often stated that older pilots simply are past it and cannot make the cut in the interview and flight test.

How the hell can this be when as Bunglerat states quiet rightly they are not even offered an interview to dispel this yet each day and night these people fill our skys in high performance turbo-prop aircraft - single pilot IFR.

To get around this airlines hide behind a bag of excuses deemed justifiable reasons to overlook these people and now this shortage is growing in intensity these excuses are becoming harder to justify.

Perhaps older pilots shoud raise the issue of aviations worst kept secret with their MP and get them to push for airlines to disclose as to just what sector of the pilot community is being employed and what is overlooked.

Discrimination on the basis of age is illegal in Australia.

Yes the airlines do take on pilots in their 40's and 50's but as one airline pilot said to me its just window dressing to show they do not discriminate, the reality is as we all know and accept is "older is not desirable".

When asked why they struggle to come up with justifiable answers - "its just the way it has always been".

To be also clear the few employed by airlines in their 40's and 50's often need extensive multi crew or type ratings to get on board yet those fresh out of flying school with 12 months of GA time do not!!.

Why- age!

Do not get me wrong I do not wish to appear as some complaining person in my mid 40's but whats wrong with a fair go.

Regrettably there are many pilots who learned to fly in less bouyant times
when airline opportunities were no so abundant who simply want a fair chance at a shot along with, and not in competition to others.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Barramundi - fukcen A! :ok:

Couple that with 'too much experience is not desirable as they can't be molded into a multi crew environment or fit our culture" and you hit the nail on the head.

And all that get's buried in the part of the letter that says "Unfortunately, you were not competetive enough".

[compressor stall]

An interesting observation re the age issue.

I could understand it many years ago when the airline invested tens of thousands of dollars into you and you stayed there for life eventually becoming captain.

Nowdays you pay for your endorsement, admittedly they put a bit of training into you, but a fraction of the days of yore. The workload (and pay) seems to burn many out sooner rather than later so young guys vote with their feet off to the sandpit or elsewhere well within ten years.

I'd say on average, a 50yo pilot would probably stay with an Aussie airline longer than a 25yo!

[pithblot]

Well said Barramundi!

Some of us older guys might like a go and are not getting a look in because of age. Some of us also don't want the down side of airline flying or couldn't be bothered changing up a few gears. At least with a shortage of experienced pilots we can pick and choose & earn coin that's the best it's ever been.

My second most favorite gripe was the Rat running candidates through all the hoops then putting pilots on "Active hold" to stew about a position.

My favorite gripe was the RFDS NSW section doing the same thing - after interviewing in Broken Hill!

Funny to think that in years gone by most of us accepted this crap!

Pithblot

[KRUSTY 34]

Guys,

I learnt to fly at the ripe old age of 26! At that time if you were over 25 you could forget a gig with the major airlines. My how things have changed!

It would be insane, in the current environment for any airline management to ignore older candidates. Especially if they carry real experience with them.

Wait a minute.... Airline managers behaving illogically! What was I thinking?

[Counter-rotation]

Barramundi, Jet A1,

Good points raised. I will stick my neck out here, and risk getting chopped...

You are perfectly correct - discrimination on the basis of age is ILLEGAL in this country. Have you (assuming you are a member) considered contacting AFAP, or your union of choice, to discuss. Get them to have a swing for you. They have the legal staff to do it.

On a similar note, I want to see them responding LOUD AND PUBLICLY to some of this rot that REX et al are peddling in the papers too.

Hope this is not too naive a suggestion!!

CR.

[porch monkey]

Actually, I used to think the same about age/experience. However, after 5500 hrs, mainly piston twin and at 43 years of age, I finally got a chance at an airline. No multi crew experience, and about 15 hrs of turbine time total!. And it's been hard f#cken' work to get that jet rating. But I have. So can you. It's just a matter of time guys, I now believe that!

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

I believe this "age" issue in a bit of a double edged sword, i do not have a personal opinion, but what i have seen:

* Many older guys leave the industry because they get sick and tired of starting at a new company and being treated as though they have just gotten their licence and are generally told that their previous experience counts for very little as "this is the way we do things here".

There is alot to be said for street smarts and rat cunning.

Yet on the other hand:

* In a previous job they were having trouble finding sufficent numbers of new pilot candidates, so they tried hiring some older guys out of GA.

It could be said that this was not a very succesfull process as a majourity of these guys were cantankerous to say the least, not willing to do things the company way and out and out abraisive.

When working for a company, you must do things their way.

Thoughts ?.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Firstly, I'd just like to say that you're only as old as the woman you feel. :E

Counter rotation said:

You are perfectly correct - discrimination on the basis of age is ILLEGAL in this country. Have you (assuming you are a member) considered contacting AFAP, or your union of choice, to discuss. Get them to have a swing for you. They have the legal staff to do it.

In a perfect, or even sensible world, this would be a good option. But you would have to take the prospective employer to court, to get access to the records pertaining to your employment application, and then mount a case. My recent experience with the AFAP's poor assistance I received when negotiating an AWA leaves me with little confidence in the level of support I could realistically expect. So, you would be faced with mounting a case out of your own pocket, and then run the risk. My brother is a senior barrister, and his advice in most matters is: "avoid litigation" .

That aside, I could tell you that I have never seen overt discrimination from employers. In fact, I could honestly tell you I have never actually been subject to discrimination in the workplace, or my applications - excepting our domestic airline here with a 'youthful' image.

I have wondered for the last few years, why all of those pilots at my previous company who were very experienced and capable (>5700kg turboprop) who should have walked into that airline never got an interview, whilst other younger piston only pilots, with less than 2500hr, female aviatrix' with even less experience, got interviews, and got jobs at.

I can happily tell you that in the last 12 months, most of these guys have been snapped up - but there are still a few that remain who have plenty of solid TP experience, but figure out who they have to root to get an interview.

Why? They have more than the minimus advertised, command time, stick skills etc, personable, great to get along with etc. It's the companies who don't tapthis talent that suffer when someone else snaps them up.

And I say interview - because then it's up to them to do that process effectively to gain the job.

Porch monkey said:
Actually, I used to think the same about age/experience. However, after 5500 hrs, mainly piston twin and at 43 years of age, I finally got a chance at an airline. No multi crew experience, and about 15 hrs of turbine time total!. And it's been hard f#cken' work to get that jet rating. But I have. So can you. It's just a matter of time guys, I now believe that!

Nice work!

I started flying in my early 30's after a (reasonably) successful career in another, unrelated, industry.

I have had to work my ring out, like most pilots, and I had to compete with guys 10 years younger than me who were without a family to provide for, and were able to move to where the next good job offer was. Alot of my options were limited because of this fact, and my family is important to me - so the career/family was a real balancing act.

Boo-fukcing-hoo for me:rolleyes:.

It has been difficult at times - especially financially - but everyone in this game has a story, some even have a hard luck story (or two).

Left handed Rockthrower said:
It could be said that this was not a very succesfull process as a majourity of these guys were cantankerous to say the least, not willing to do things the company way and out and out abraisive.

LHRT, that's not an age issue - that's an @rsehole issue!

As far as I'm concerned, show me a set of SOPS, tell me where you want me to go and what time, and pay me on time, and it's a done deal. I get along with they people I fly with, and age is not part of the equation in our relationships.

Most professionals will operate professionally despite their age.


Oh, and I'm early 40's. Hardly an old fart, despite what my kids (teens) say! :ugh:

[Max Q.f]

Demographics will become a buzzword in the next ten years...

Makes you wonder why the Shorthaul boys were so quick to sign off their EBA...:(

[rsull]

Pilot Shortage, Yeah Right!
Former workmates and friends of mine overseas have contacted me recently saying that there has been stories in their local media stating that there has been cancelations of around 10% of flights due to lack of crews in Australia. What a load of crap.

When are the pilot groups and unions going to counter the propaganda feed to the public by the airlines? When are conditions going to improve? When are we going to get pay increases across the board for crews in Australia like the CEO’s have enjoyed in recent years.

This is all I have heard from any union, and how does this help us?
Australian Federation of Air Pilots industrial relations manager Lawrie Cox said within the next year some airlines would not be able to service smaller routes in regional and remote areas.

Where are the ALEA, AFAP, TWU? The government has yet to make a decision on 457 visas for pilots. It must never happen or it we can kiss good bye to taking any ground back that has been lost over the past 10 years. Pilots are still leaving for greener pastures overseas. This is the issue. There is not a pilot shortage in Australia, there is a shortage of good jobs and representation, so the pilots are still heading overseas.

[Sonny Hammond]

457 visa's?

It must never happen is a very hopeful thought.

The airlines here have a nasty habit of getting their way with most things (except selling themselves haha).
So what will happen is after a very half hearted attempt to start a flying school qf (that operates totally on terms to benefit qf- of course), qf will claim that due to a poor uptake of its extremely generous offer to create australian pilots- that qf must now unfortunately import that skill- what a shame but they tried eh?
The fact that the imports pay will make J*'s look good, will of course be merely a side issue.....

[Jet_A_Knight]

You would imagine that our respective pilot representative organisations would spend some of the filthy lucre we contribute on a decent PR organisation to counter spin, the spin.

Obviously not such an obvious idea.:ugh:

[Erin Brockovich]

Personally I don’t think 457s will much of a problem for us as it is shaping up to be a world wide pilot shortage. The future demand for pilots in Aus will be lower than the demand overseas.

An industry rep does need to set the record straight though. I would rather have my tax dollars spent on improving Air Services than funding airline training schemes. So would most tax payers.

[The Bunglerat]

Lefthanded Rock Thrower mentioned the bit about older GA guys being too cantankerous. I haven't hit the magic "40" yet, but I can tell you right now that GA made me pretty bloody cantankerous too! Who wouldn't be after years of enduring such crap!:ugh:

However, as for my 50-cent's worth for all the detractors out there who think you can't teach an old dog new tricks, I'm with Porch Monkey. Given the opportunity, it might be hard yakka and more of a challenge for some than others - but if you're a true professional pilot - emphasis on the word "professional" by the way - you'll get your head around it all (SOP's, complex jet systems, etc).

FYI, I was 38 when I did my first big jet endorsement (after having flown nothing bigger than 5700kg MTOW). I studied, I worked, and I did it. Just like everyone else who'd done the same before me. End of story.

[Andu]

Erin B, whilst not disagreeing with your logic, I think you failed to take account of the lure of a residence visa in Oz. I've been told Virgin Blue offered an insultingly low salary package for their chosen Chief Pilot 777 when you consider the work he'll have to put in setting up their overseas operation, but, because an Oz residence visa is part of the deal, it was sufficient to lure a South African with very high qualifications who could otherwise earn considerably more elsewhere.

I suspect something similar will apply to quite a few other pilots from overseas, particularly South Africa, who are offered slots on the 777 with Virgin Blue - and the same could be said for others who will take jobs with Rex and other second level operators at the current T&Cs.

It remains to be seen how long many of them will stay in these low paying jobs once they've got their families settled in Oz with their Oz residency secured.

[ScottyDoo]

South Africa......how long many of them will stay in these low paying jobs once they've got their families settled in Oz

Correct. Except that many of them already have their families settled here.

Zim and SA - there's your future pilot supply for Australia, folks. They speak the language, they won't crash the machines and they're already keen to move here.

Not hard to figure which way recruitment for trainers/line drivers will go.

V. Setheffrica.

[CAYNINE]

Good points regarding experienced older guys, there are many pilots in Oz that are capable and willing to operate in the Regional Airline environment.....

Having said that the structure makes it nigh on impossible to join a regional, at the bottom, and remain happy and satisfied with the job. Low pay, poor work condits and a training,(checking only for some,) department that carries on like they are running a space program makes the position not attractive to someone in their 40's+.

CEO's have pushed the LCC model onto the Australian stage with a knock on effect to the regionals, the attitude is if the major's can cut costs so can we. The end result is the shortage we have today.

When I started flying there were 30 guys and gals in our CPL theory course, today there's very few wanting to start flying..... why, because there is such a massive financial outlay with no reward for many years and stupid decisions like paying for a Dash endorsemnet that EAA decided on a few years back.

Less than 90 CPL/ATPL's issued last year....... not going to fill many seats is it?:=

[Towering Q]

The Rex CP should have stopped off at Kazakhstan, Borat's younger brother, Bilo, has just got his CPL.

[havick]

Will they change the uniform to borat's bright yellow bathing suit?

[max autobrakes]

Have Mankini will flash!;)

[training wheels]

You are perfectly correct - discrimination on the basis of age is ILLEGAL in this country. Reminds me of the Deborah Wardley case (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/26/1088145020233.html) in the 80's where she took Ansett to court over discrimination of sex. May be you old timers can do the same and set a precedence for older pilots who meet the usual airline entry requirements as Deborah did as a female pilot in the 80's? But no doubt the airlines will come up with some ridiculous counter claim, like walking sticks in the cockpit is a safety issue in moderate turbulence? :hmm:

[Ejector]

I know that Journalist read this site, I feel that they must see the difference between Rex saying that the industry need some 1400 ATPL holders and some 400 a year are issued. Note, that a new pilot is not an ATPL holder, mistake number one Rex. Also, there are so many folks that are Australian Citizens that hold current ATPL’s that it would be a financial step backwards to fly for Rex with the cost of living in Rex bases like Sydney and Melbourne and also dealing with the Rex roster. On the other hand, the Rex roster would suite so many very Experienced Aust ATPL holders, but Rex wont even match there “little plane wage”. The sheer number of Australian Pilots going abroad due to companies like Rex complaining of no crews, but not even offering an interview or making conditions even 30% as attractive is just so surprising to me. What I think this is all leading to, is not bringing up to the standard and level of supply and demand, but making a case for foreign visa’s. This is what this is all about. Me, I have traveled Rex 9 times in 2007, I no longer book with them due to a fear of the flight being CXL.

How does training your own shinny 150hrs co-pilots beat simple respect ? :ugh:

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Just heard an ad on Melbourne commercial radio from 'Peregrine Aviation' spruiking the 'pilot shortage' and offering sponsored paths to a RHS without uni degrees etc.

(checked out the website - WTF?
"Phil Sweeney is our company representative in Australia. Phil is a private pilot situated on the Gold Coast, Queensland.
He has over 20 years of aviation experience as a recreational pilot, and has a strong passion towards the industry")

UTR

[Eskimo Joe]

As far as I can ascertain - there ain't no pilot shortage in Oz. Am I missing something here?? Rex go overseas to recruit ?? All the while there is an abundance of well qualified Aussies (and Kiwis) here and abroad who can't get a peep.
What in the world is happening here - is there still an old Ansett blacklist or what ???
Regionals (and majors) appear to `throw out muddy water when the creek is dry'.
No wonder Ozzies nick off o/s , they go somewhere else where they are wanted and who could blame them.
Maybe there is such a thing as overqualified, who knows... and it appears that anyone over 40, smell of death - dead men walking, sorry, they have a foot in the grave and God forbid a Regional would hire them, yet they would most probably turn out to be the most dependable, reliable and loyal employee an airline could hire (irrespective of their experience).
Can anybody educate me on this madness..?? I hope the airline boffins read these threads and explain why this nonsense is occurring.
:confused:

[havick]

A mate of mine just got a start with them, he/she hasn't flown for over a year and has the 1500ttPIC and 500multi PIC.

So I guess they still are hiring guys that have done their time out bush.

[bored]

A few of you sound a bit worried about foreign pilots coming to oz on special visas to fly......why would they?? The coming pilot shortage in oz and the numbers being quoted are insignificant on a world scale. Just one example is Emirates, they have 108 planes now with 50 coming in next few years and they're expected to announce more orders at the DXB airshow in a couple of weeks for at least 50 more and possibly up to 150. CX have an a/c arriving every month for the next 4 years.
There will be bidding wars between airlines not only to attract more crews but just to retain the ones they have now.
Airlines in oz (jetstar/vb)don't think they have to pay as much as foreign carriers because everyone wants to stay in oz for the lifestyle!
Q: what sort of 'lifestyle' can you afford earning 100K living in any of Australia's capital cities while servicing a mortgage?
A: a very basic one.(ie you're not going to get ahead!) A large correction is imminent.
Any eastern euro will go somewhere like Emirates a: for the cash and b: its closer to home!!
And as for those 90 or so new CPL holders per year, a % of them will head o/s at some point anyway.
Just wait 12 months when V oz start getting their 777's and J*'s 787's start rolling up, there'll be plenty of excitement. Remember, both of those companies are competing for type rated guys from CX, EK and SIA at a time when those 3 airlines are experiencing unprecedented growth. Yes, thats right, they will all be competing for our services now!!!
For the first time probably ever, market forces will significantly push salaries up across the board in the coming years.
Relax.:ok:

[Out-of-balance]

110% agree Bored!

However, I dont think 'market forces' will take years to impact salary increases - They already exist (not so for struggling bobble heads).

Also, your piont on CX, EK & SIA is true but the pressure may come from airline/s much closer to home. Yesterday the Australian Financial Reveiew reported private equity was sniffing around DJ and yes we've heard it all before, however I believe there to be a strong element of truth to this - They reported Asian interest & I wouldn't be suprised to see macqaurie bank involved either.

Regadless, who it is (if true - i'm looking at the glass 1/2 full) private equity will be positive for pilots. Many will say they're toe cutters but I think they have the smarts to know where to cut and where to pay up.

[Metro man]

TAX TAX TAX Remember that word. AU$150 000 salary gets a $48 500 bill from the ATO, with 45% on earnings over that. Very little in the way of benefits from the government either for high income earners.

Look at the whole picture from your own situation, married/single, children/no children, lifestyle, saving ability, career progression. A job that would be perfect for you might be miserable for someone else.

25 years old single looking to see the world, save some money and upgrade quickly on new equipment. Middle East or Asia

55 years old family ties, sick of long haul, cashed up, already a captain. Better of at home.

[Launch_code_Harry]

I am not aware of any Oz based carrier that contributes to mortgage/rent or provides accommodation, contributes to utilities or school fees. Other sweetners include Loss Of license/ life insurance & provident fund. A combination of some or all of these in addition to the salary are usually included in an expat package. As metroman says, look very carefully at the whole package & your own situation before you write off the apparently low headline rate.

[Paper Planes]

I am not aware of any Oz based carrier that contributes to mortgage/rent or provides accommodation, contributes to utilities or school fees.

Really?? Qantas & Virgin Blue don't try and help pilots out by offering salary sacrifice on living expenses? If this rumour is true the aviation industry needs to really get with the times. :ugh:

[Metro man]

Don't see QF or Virgin giving free furnished accommodation including lights and water, paying school fees, free medical insurance, transport to and from work and direct entry commands.

A few benefits such as loss of licence; salary sacrifice just helps offset the ridiculous tax rates by a small amount.

Financially better off overseas, BUT you must decide if the sacrifices are worth it to YOU.:ok:

[Launch_code_Harry]

Really?? Qantas & Virgin Blue don't try and help pilots out by offering salary sacrifice on living expenses?
Not that I am aware of, happy to be corrected...

[Keg]

Strewth PAF, I'm not sure that the Christie case has any relevance to the current argument.

Captain Christie wanted to remain as a senior captain on type. The company was unable to design trips to destinations that allowed crew over the age of 60. No discrimination, he just couldn't perform his duties.

I think the dust settled on that case before I joined Qantas and that was in '95! :eek:

[WynSock]

What about applying though? Ageism is alive and well. If you had a rich daddy and got qualified soon, you look better than the guy who sweated his way through multiple jobs saving every cent to fly. Takes longer. Years longer.

[Poto]

WynSock

I am not sure about age discrimination at various Australian airlines. Plenty of Pilots employed in the last few years to the 'majors' in their late thirties and early forties. :uhoh:

[7e7100]

What Bored sounds realistic. Why worry? The majority of us will get what we want eventually as long as we work towards getting there. Exciting times for all of us I say!

[Metro man]

From the AFAP website:CPL holders with a NVFR or CIR rating are invited to apply for a FIR scholarship with Basair Aviation College. Suitable candidates will be trained for their Grade 3 instructor rating at no cost in exchange for a period of service to Basair

We've had a flying school offering to get lapsed instructors current again, now one is actually going to spend money training them.:)

[2p!ssed2drive]

just a message to all the employers out there:

treat your pilots well.

check the AFAP. There are ALOT of jobs out there to choose from now :ok:

[777Contrail]

Well, in the mean time airlines will reduce flights by say 2-4%, on the least lucrative routes.

Up ticket prices because of the "crisis'' by say 10%.

And profits will jump.



Talking about Zim and South african pilots. Yes most of them will love to move the families to Oz, but there are hardly any pilots left in Zim - they have no fuel.....:}

The South African industry employs around 1500 ALTPL holders, many too old to move and the rest looking at Emirates, Ryanair and Cathay , while operating in a profesional environment already.

I don't think ANY South Africans will be moving just to be exploited.:=

[Going Boeing]

There are already a number of pilots employed by South African Airways who are domiciled in Perth and commute to JNB. They don't have to look for a new employer as they already have Oz permanent resident status. There may be some SA regional pilots that the Oz airlines may target but most of them who wanted to move would have already done so.

Jetstar Intl has some ex SA pilots but I understand that these came from Emirates etc.

[KRUSTY 34]

Funny ol' world isn't it 777?

If management increased the ticket price by 10% in the 1st place, and passed that increase on to the crew, retention of pilots would be much less of a problem.

Company's could keep most if not all of their services, and retain or even expand their economies of scale.

Completely agree with you about the import of foreign pilots. REX made a rediculous and very expensive trip to Europe recently which produced nothing!!! Everyone knows that this shortage is global. The companies that move forward will be the ones offering superior T&C's. All the others will be left fighting over the scaps.

Am I being paranoid, or is the priority here the supression of pilots wages and conditions at all costs?