After the Emirates Brief, A perspective.

[Saturn]

Just fresh from the brief and I will make this brief. The presentation was professional. I went thinking that I wanted to fly for Emirates and left thinking thank god I fly for Cathay. After listening to pay, conditions and living in Dubai I almost wanted to kiss PW and NR on the 3rd and 9th floors respectively. A LIQUIOR LICENSE, WWWWWWWHHHHHAAAATTTTTTT??????
So I will say this GUYS/GALS WE DON'T HAVE IT THAT BAD!!!!!!!! Flame away if you need to but for those of us that were there; YIKES! I think I get it now.:p

[Rice Pudding]

I thought they provided a very well balanced perspective. No doubt some of their pilots are suffering similar disillusions as we are, but on the whole the offer was realistic.
If you are keen to find an alternative, then it is worth phoning Korean Airlines recruiting department as well. The main benefit here is the basing, and they will fly you to work in Seoul with 11 days off at home base per month. The pay is very good - they are expanding. It is similar to what CX would pay on a base, and a viable alternative if your preferred base port is full.
For more details:
Direct Personnel International Ltd.
Tel : +353-1-8138400
Fax: +353-1-8138401
e-mail : [email protected]
and :
www.directpersonnel.com/en/html/algemeen/welcome/koreanairrecruitment.asp

[Coastrider26]

don't worry to much bout the liquor license every non muslim gets one after filling out a simple form. Crew gets a discount at the airport duty free which will be well below market price or otherwise a short drive to hole in the wall will take care of the problem.

[checkedandset]

I agree with Saturn, I walked in with my completed online application and left with it still in my bag. Where do they think they are going to get the crews for the 100 aircraft on order and the 100 or so to be announced at the coming airshow in Dubai. Lots of gloss but no substance. Having been through Dubai for a number of years its not a cheap place to live contrary what the HR lady was trying to tell us, it used to be but not anymore.

So unfortunately I dont think CX and KA have much to worry about losing guys to Emirates unless their package improves substantially. They also fail to realise that having a company assigned house is not the same as choosing your own pad where you want to live and then have the company pay for it.

The search continues .....

[Iwannahumpalot]

thanks for the headsup guys and gals, i was planning on heading down to the brief but i think i will sit back and take a deep breathe and have a think about it first after what i have read. I have looked at the numbers for there pay etc and having been to dubai many times online, things arent getting cheaper over there, plus couple that with the number of accidents and deaths that occur each hour of everyday, i am safer with a honkie taxi!!!

hump-OUT

[Numero Crunchero]

You need to look at the pros and cons of both CX and EK and work out what is important to you. You will get more money(after tax remember) etc in DXB but you can't get basings. You are closer to EUR but further away from Aus.

On money and time to command EK wins. On clean air EK wins. On flexibility of basings(so far!) CX wins.

I have a friend who has worked for both airlines. He said management is similar but training is superior in DXB - ie, they actually pass you if you pass your 4bar - no star chamber stuff.

We have pollution and a decade longer to command. They have more traffic accidents. Their education/housing allowance isn't taxed, ours is.

Depends what is important to you I guess!

[Fenwicksgirl]

So after all the hoo haa this week, how many guys actually turned up???

[AAIGUY]

50-60 I would say today. Some in and out so hard to get a true count.

Maybe 10+ got interviews (I am sure all those who were interested did).

Again, money was worse, but perhaps made up by tax free ness of it..

I am re watching the video they handed out now.

[Lowkoon]

Video??? Does anyone in HKG still own a video recorder? Did they give you choice of vhs or beta or "super 8"??? :)

[AAIGUY]

I meant DVD..Mea Culpa...

[The Management]

And yes we have our own DVD. Looking forward to the next upgrade meeting when we review it.

The Management.

[The Wraith]

Surely getting a command in somewhere around 3 years....and getting it on merit and ability instead of the "at Cathay we don't spoon feed, ie train, and you earn your Cathay Command blah blah....." as opposed to 10 years would make up for any shortfall in equivalent payscales? If you were close to, or already had, a command at Cathay then apart from slightly cleaner air and an exciting drive to work there wouldn't be much point leaving. But if you were near the bottom with relatively high previous experience, with close to ten years to an attempt at a Cathay command and presently barely QLd on hospital corners, surely it would be worth the jump?
And could the relationship between the management and its workforce really be any worse than it is here?
It is certainly worth some consideration.
Anyway, where did I leave those white sheets.....the blue ones never fit....

:E

[Numero Crunchero]

You are at least 30% better off in after tax dollars after 10 years in EK vs CX. Assuming command after 5 years in EK(anticipated to be 3-5years) you will be earning 34% more after tax than at CX at the 10 year mark. This does not include ERP so it is likely to be closer to 40% more. Your career earnings will also be 34%+ more at EK assuming a similar cost of living. Remember that utilities are free, limo pickup and dropoff, housing and education allowances untaxed.

Bottom line, EK is well ahead of CX. And there is no reason to believe that there will not be another pay rise next May as there has been in every year this decade. ALso their increments are 3% not 2% like the new improved CX command scale.

There is more to life than money....but if money is your 'thing' then EK leaves CX way behind.

[jtr]

Most posters here are looking at the here and now.

Extrapolate the changes in CX over the past 10 years for the same period into the future, do the same for EK, then have a think about it.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Ahh, more pollution in Hong Kong and more construction in Dubai, am I close?:eek::}

[Numero Crunchero]

OK I will...based on last 5 years and then doubled, CX salary would go up 0% and EK salary would double;-)

I read somewhere that EK had 102 aircraft in May - same as we had last Dec. I also read they have over 100 aircraft on order. Last I checked we had 29 ordered for delivery from Jan this year until some time in 2010+. So the less than 5 years to command assumption looks safe at EK.

Apparently RA65 will accelerate time to command which is handy as with an extra 500 geriatrics hanging around over the next 10 years we will need it.

I believe we have less commands planned next year than we had this year but not 100% certain. With RA65 we need about 50-60 less command courses per year(assuming 100% pass rate) if all the A scalers extend!

[moosp]

Good point jtr. CX pilot conditions are static, EK's are dynamic.

With any job you need to look at the macro economics of the company's situation if you are looking to the future. EK is the airline of an energetic government who are developing their country with vast strategic aims. CX is tied to a HKG government that has no power over the development of aviation in Hong Kong, either because of entrenched interests or mainland control.

One point that is often overlooked when searching for a pilots job is, what is the perceived position of a pilot in that company, and that country. For instance, when in Taiwan recently and a parent wanted to take a photo of the captain next to his four year old son, the comment from my new to CX trainee was "This is amazing, they treat us with such respect, this does not happen in my country." A true Borat moment.

Also, what is the perceived position of a pilot in the company? In companies where the Director of Flight Operations is not a pilot, you may find that pilots are treated as low grade labour, and our professionalism is either mis-understood or deliberately undervalued.

So many things to consider.

[AAIGUY]

I really enjoyed the chap asking about the command upgrade pass rate...they almost didn't understand the question.. after getting a grip on what was actually being asked the reply was 95% atleast......

[404 Titan]

From the DFO's weekly news letter:
Perhaps one other concern that I haven't addressed is that the recruitment of Direct Entry F/Os onto the passenger fleet in 2008 and the extension of captains beyond the age of 55 will slow down the number of upgrades. We have just completed the budget submission for next year and I can confirm that we plan to upgrade close to 90 S/Os to JF/O and 90 SF/Os to Captain in "08" very similar levels to "06" and "07". The limit on this continues to be set by the training capacity of the Company which is enhanced by extending C&T crew beyond the age of 55..
Does anyone actually know what the upgrade figures were for 06 & 07 respectively? Would be interesting to know the reality.

[Millstream]

How very balanced :yuk:.

It cannot be too comfortable having Emirates on the doorstep recruiting. Whatever the motivations of the posters above it is a sign of the times. At some point somebody will have to pay more to fill the cockpits.

Anyway, back to some complaining:

Tell me NC, how much tax will I pay the HKG taxman for my allowances? Couple of kids at school and using the housing to buy a concrete box?

............And how much will I pay in Dubai?

Milly

[Beta Light]

I do my calculations the same way as Number Crunch. The last 7 years my C.O.S went one way. My friends in EK ,(now all Commanders, first time passes, in line with their career planning /management ) have seen only improvement. From CX graph being way ahead 7 years ago, the EK upward graph is now crossing the CX flat line (at best a flat line) . Then extend the two line’s 5 year into the future………..no brainer!

As far as lifestyle the only way is to go and visit 2 mate for a couple of days each and get the different perspectives and observe their everyday lifestyle.

Did not mind the sand up my a$$ as it was on a Harley and a kick a$$ scrambler, washed of kite surfing in crystal clear unpolluted water. Wife loved the driving to shopping mall out the car and in the shop in 200 meters not fighting a crowd, and my daughter is hooked on horse riding that is virtually free compare to Hong Kong price.

Everyone for himself, but financially compare apples with apples and CX is way behind

[jtr]

Perhaps one other concern that I haven't addressed is that the recruitment of Direct Entry F/Os onto the passenger fleet in 2008 and the extension of captains beyond the age of 55 will slow down the number of upgrades. We have just completed the budget submission for next year and I can confirm that we plan to upgrade close to 90 S/Os to JF/O and 90 SF/Os to Captain in "08" very similar levels to "06" and "07". The limit on this continues to be set by the training capacity of the Company which is enhanced by extending C&T crew beyond the age of 55.


Here's a thought... maybe pay Check and Checkers a fair amount for the work they do and in addition employ enough so that you have surge capacity and hence no crap rosters, then maybe you will be able to keep them in the department longer, then you won't need to attack the conditions of employees purely to satisfy your bottom line.

[RedLiner]

Does anyone know what the commuter policy at EK is? As mentioned in earlier posts living in Hong Kong or Dubai is really relative to an individual's needs. However CX seems to have overcome that hurdle by opening up pilot bases internationally. EK does offers quicker upgrades with better wages but the thought of living in DBX is rather a downer for many.

In a market thats seems to have a shortage of qualified pilots worldwide, one would think that EK would follow suit and start offering some international bases.

Any word on that? Has it ever been discussed at EK? Personally I'd sersiously consider EK if it did not involve living in Dubai. Now thats not really flame bait but a personal preference.

RL.

[gb777]

I attended the Singapore presentation on Monday
(headcount +/- 15, whereof 1 had applied on line)

Future basings are not considered and will not be in the future.
They want you to live in Dubai and "enjoy" the lifestyle.
(Commuting at your own risk....)

That's where I left the presentation.
(Headcount down to 14 lol)

[fatbus]

The powers to be think that everyone cant wait to move to and live in Dubai but what they are missinf is that most expats that are in Dubai cant wait to leave.

Commuting very hard, flts are full ,no jump seat, no upgrades, ground staff will go out of there way to make your life hell..

The water is not clear anymore and the air is getting worst everyday.

Inflation @ 20% some things 50% increase

And dont get me started on the driving dangers.

Glad to hear thay the turnout was what it was in SIN

[badairsucker]

Commuting very hard, flts are full ,no jump seat, no upgrades, ground staff will go out of there way to make your life hell..

The water is not clear anymore and the air is getting worst everyday.

Inflation @ 20% some things 50% increase

And dont get me started on the driving dangers.



Christ, sounds like Hong Kong.

[Essential Buzz]

Reputedly the reason for no international bases is so that you will spend your "hard earned" in the UAE.

[404 Titan]

Essential Buzz

I think it is more to do with control. With pilots on bases they have to comply with foreign labour laws. Having all the pilots based in Dubai allows them to do what they like, i.e. break contracts, ban organised labour and fire at will.

[AAIGUY]

C404 has it right.

My take was they had more labour control both in terms of requiring less numbers and fewer laws.

[RedLiner]

very good points...but when it comes down to it, the law of market forces always trumps all....

[willnotcomply]

The fact that EK have to conduct a roadshow and CX does'nt, says it all when you think about it. A sad reality for those of us at CX.

[RedLiner]

I disagree. CX has been conducting "roadshows" in the US for the last 2 years at about an average of 6 per year.

[willnotcomply]

I was not aware of that

[Hellenic aviator]

CX has been attending the AIRINC. Seminars throughout the U.S., standing at the podium describing their expansion plans, how many new planes,CX's route structure, etc.
They have also got a full ad in AIRINC's magazine.
I agree with Red Liner.
Market Forces gents (and ladies), as we are reminded often. Bottom line - if we can't negotiate and remain united now then we deserve what we get and truly have no excuse.

[dragonflyhkg]

Ladies and Gents,

The EK Road-show presentation in HKG on Saturday was an interesting exercise in listening to what was said, understanding what was not being said, and attempting to read between the two based on the facts that were presented whilst remaining “on the rails”.

Perhaps I should start with some factual information. The presenters, CN Steve Westmacott (B777) and Donna (Flt Ops HR) delivered a mixed media presentation lasting a couple of hours.

The DVD that formed a substantial part of the presentation is floating around out there. According to Steve, they’ve “left 500 of them” in Singapore, Taipei and Hong Kong in the last week. A significant number of crew and a few partners attended the presentation.

As of this past week, EK Flight Operations HR has publically stated a target of 550 new joiners for the next year. The aircraft numbers arriving into their fleet are staggering. By 2008, EK will take one new aircraft every two weeks for the foreseeable future. Accordingly, it’s clear that the career prospects are equally as staggering.

There are presently a limited number of places for direct entry commands on the B777 only. Presumably they have sufficient applications in this area to meet their current target for this group and the impression that was given was that this was a small part of the overall requirement. Initial FO entry is based on a joiner with sufficient experience to achieve a command in 3 to 5 years. A limited number of FO entries are available for an accelerated command; i.e. < less than 3 years, however no guarantees. There is however a training bond arrangement to be dealt with by successful recruits

The EK company “projection” of your future involvement with EK and the UAE reflects the general economic projection of the UAE itself; come to EK to live and work in the UAE. Basing beyond DXB has not and is not a feature of the strategic plan and there is no foreseeable change on this position.

According to the presenters, UAE economic growth currently tops the world growth list at 16% year on year. Development in DXB, visually, economically and statistically, bears testimony to this fact and EK are quite “bullish” about this fact. From an aviation perspective, the present and projected rise of the Middle-East and Asian aviation hubs is the EK cause for aggressive business plans and they intend to capitalise on this situation in a very big way.

The other side of the economic picture is a current annual inflation rate that was stated as 10% per annum. This factor is being driven largely by the cost of housing, which goes so far as to be a large driving factor in the manner in which the EK accommodation package is presently established, managed and provided to staff. Accommodation appears to be a “take what you get” arrangement because there are very few choices really available, due to cost, availability and practicality.

The presenters were a little “hair triggered” about the EK total remuneration package. I pondered as to why and surmised that the number of components that have to be considered within the total package results in an unclear picture of the deal that’s on offer; direct remuneration – salary, duty allowances, education, other assistances; indirect remuneration – accommodation free, utilities free, tax free.

The management of the current and future remuneration package at EK is set to account for inflation through planned future adjustments. It also accounts for the burgeoning demand for overseas crew by having a currency protection mechanism built into the package, acknowledging that their crew have currency issues beyond the UAE.

To be fair, the presenters laid out a balanced view of life in DXB and the UAE, outlining the clear “pluses and minuses” which routinely are discussed by ex-patriot crew around the Asia-Pacific.

Comment:
Quite clearly, analysis of the career prospects and the current remuneration offer indicate that no prospective new joiner to a HKG based airline can ignore the offer at EK. No SO or FO position on offer in HKG at present offers anywhere near the potential reward.

The situation for experienced crew is however very different. EK have just spent the last week in the backyards of substantial airlines such Singapore Airlines, Eva Airways, China Airlines, Cathay Pacific Airways and Dragon Air, not to mention numerous smaller carriers. They’ve outlined that the vast majority of future recruitment will be as FOs, but what’s being offered to lever this group into an EK future is however not yet enough to compel experienced crew to commit to such a future.
http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/ExploreOurCareers/FlightDeckCrew/FlightDeck.asp (http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/ExploreOurCareers/FlightDeckCrew/FlightDeck.asp)

[rhoshamboe]

Absolutely spot on mate. My thoughts are certainly not enough to lure the more senior guys at CX and KA but as a new joiner they win hands down, depending of course on where you are happy to live.

[bored]

Putting aside living in dubai, this is a personal thing that means something different for everyone for a variety of reasons, just concentrate on the housing.

If you're an SO or FO in HK at the moment with a family then you're starting to get priced out of the housing market, a single guy/girl can comfortably live in a 800-1000 sq foot place.

For me(single), the ability to be able to buy a place with the allowance in HK and have the captital growth go into my pocket is the only reason i'm here. You cannot even rent, let alone buy a similar apartment in dubai with the housing allowance they offer. so for me its not a good financial decision to go.

If I had a family here in HK there would be no way I would be able to buy a suitable place with the allowance now, hence I would be on the first camel train to the desert to live in one of those flash villas and have my kids' education paid for(tax free!).

[Mr. Bloggs]

404 Titan, correct me if I am wrong, but can they not do what EVA have been doing for years? They are based out of Taipei but have extended roster patterns in say your base area (6 days off). Local labor laws don’t apply.:ok:

Didn’t we have that once?:)

[404 Titan]

Mr. Bloggs

They probably could. My understanding though is that CX is on shoring the bases as a direct result of the “Croft” high court case in the UK. I really don’t know if this would apply to extended rosters though. It certainly is a grey area which may need to be tested. The question though is EK up for it considering the shellacking CX got?

[Mr. Bloggs]

CX seems to be boasting about the UK base only. They say other bases will follow. Is it a ruse? Can’t really see them going On-Shore in other areas especially, the USA? Are they playing us again?:sad::sad:

[BIG MACH]

CX fell foul of UK revenue because they use the term 'base'. When the system was first set up to accommodate VETA, the company used KPMG to do the research and had a letter to say that what they were doing was acceptable and that responsibility for paying tax was down to each individual crew member. Many lived outside of the UK so the question of tax did not arise.
The revenue people had another look after the Crofts case and decided that CX was now an onshore company. If you are going to change the rules retrospectively, make sure you work for the government. CX protestations were met with "That was then. This is now." UK is now clearly 3rd world in its attitude to the rules. Like many areas of taxation, there is no law; only precedent. A judgement in court is required to make the precedent law. Hence CX fell into a grey hole.
Other companies allow their crews to have time off in Europe but do not nominate a base. On arrival in Europe the crew member is given a ticket to wherever he wants to go, (within reason, of course). I am surprised that CX did not follow this path; unless they did not want to rattle any cages. Opening bases in continental Europe will be interesting. I have just read that social costs for an employer in France are 48% of salary. Anyone know what the costs in other countries would be? I suspect that London will be the only European base, since social costs are only 12.5%.
Way forward is to make everyone HK based with a European biased roster, as do other companies. Save a fortune.

[Numero Crunchero]

Cant answer the recruiting question. If they thought 48 was too old they wouldn't recruit you.

Current projections for command are 12-14 years. So that would put you at 60+. As a new joiner you will have RA65 so now worries on that one.

Cathay will get you closer to home...if you can join as a DEFO you can pretty much stay in Oz until a hkg command comes up...but as I said, that will be around 60-62 if you are keen! If you don't get a DEFO position but joined in HKG you could commute but the salary for SO is pretty bad.

EK - much harder to commute adn much further. Time to command is 3-5 years and expected to be around the same for the foreseeable future.


SO if its command/money you want, EK. If its Australia you want, CX. I am assuming you considered all the aussie options J*, VB etc

[Frogman1484]

If you are joining Cx for the bases...you have it wrong...not enough bases in OZ to allow you to be senior enough to take a base.

I think you will have a better chance to go to EK. When they cannot get enough pilots, they will have to offer commuting rosters.

[hongkongfooey]

Commuting from Dubai to Oz, now thats an offer almost too good to refuse :yuk:

[Hellenic aviator]

I guess it depends on where in Aus you live. If you live in SYD, then no worries.

We have a CN here that commutes to/from Scotland :ooh:

[atiuta]

To the guys in poo harbour or those considering EK/CX.

Strong advice is that EK will not offer basings in the near future. Put a big X against EK Basings on your list of for/against when comparing the two airlines.

Ditto for commuting in EK.

May happen in the future (EK basings) but at the moment you'll find them somewhere beyond Pluto.

If they do happen, basings will either go to pilots already in EK or to new hires on poor conditions. Remember ASL. So it's not a drawcard at all.

EK does need a lot of pilots and if you're qualified you will get an interview. I suspect they will hire turboprop drivers before they increase the EK package or offer basings.

As for the rest of the gloss, a lot of it comes down to individual choice/needs.

Interesting comment about EK appealing to the newbie CX guy. I can understand looking at 5 vs 10 yrs to command and RA65 issues but in that case, why did the newbie go to CX in the first place?

[hongkongfooey]

I guess it depends on where in Aus you live. If you live in SYD, then no worries

Yep, good point, only 28 1/2 hours return :hmm:

[Truckmasters]

Interesting comment about EK appealing to the newbie CX guy. I can understand looking at 5 vs 10 yrs to command and RA65 issues but in that case, why did the newbie go to CX in the first place?


Have a look at the stated req'ts on the company websites. You should be able to work out why the newbie went to CX first and would still look at EK.
Simply, 2000 hours multi crew and multi jet is a little harder to get than some of the CX req'ts.

EK
Requirements for Position of First Officer - A330/A340 and B777

A minimum of 4,000 hours total flying time
A minimum of 2,000 hours multi-crew, multi-engined jet aircraft experience
ICAO ATPL
English language fluency (written and verbal comprehension)
Experience commensurate with age
Type rated would be advantageous

CX
All First Officer applicants must meet the following minimum requirements:

An ICAO Airline Transport Pilot's License (ATPL)
A minimum of 1000 hours in one of the following categories:
Airline Jet Transport
Command Turbo Prop (MAUW greater than 20,000 Kgs)
High Performance Military Jet
Corporate Jet Command
A current Class One Medical
Fluent spoken & written English
Experience commensurate with age

SO
All Second Officer applicants must meet the following minimum requirements:


1. An ICAO Airline Transport Pilot's License (ATPL) (obtained without exemptions) or ICAO Commercial Pilot's License (CPL) (obtained without exemptions) with passes in all ATPL ground examinations
2. A Valid Multi-Engine Instrument Rating
3. A minimum of 1000 hours fixed wing (preference will be given to applicants with turbine or multi-engine experience)
4. Experience commensurate with age
5. A current Class One Medical
6. Fluent spoken & written English

[Frogman1484]

Just remember what the reason is for EK looking at 4000 hours...you will be in a left seat in 3 years, even sooner if you have left seat experience (12 -18 months)

At Cathay you will be in the left seat in 10-15 years if not more.

Having been to the road show , basically it boils down to where I would be happy living. It is not about bases as you ain't going to get one here at CX either.

The money is roughly the same...EK will be better than CX in no time (Market Forces)

Both are Managements are good at running an airline but crap at running staff.

In Dubai you have to live in a compound with another 1600 Pilots. Here in HKg we have major pollution.

The one thing that EK does have and that is a training bond. I believe that a lot of EK guys are leaving after the bond has expired.

so what NR is finding out is that even though he has the training book filled with suitably qualified Pilots, it is retaining them once they are really suitably qualified with a 777 endorsement...we would not have the problem in the freighter pool if the package and conditions were right.

[fatbus]

The training bond is 36 K US over 3 years not a big deal. If you are into the fast upgrade than 3 years goes by fast,but 1900 now would need 3800 ish to be on the top half (upgarde) at 4-500 per year = 5 years and dont count on excellerated only used in extreme casesand yes everyone knows someone that has just done the excellerated and there is still alot of guys that are pissed because of it. The Airbus right now is working on getting the backlog upgraded also 100 AB capt going to the B to make room for AB fo's to upgrade. Guys that have been here for 2 years should be upgrading by the end of 2008. I think it might of been ED that said only 8 Decs on the boeing from now until end of 08, over 250 upgrades on both fleets

[atiuta]

My comment about newbies in CX looking at Ek stems from an earlier comment that a move to EK would only be worthwhile for a newish pilot in CX. If a new pilot in CX were able to consider a move to Ek, you could reasonably asusme that he had or was close to qualifying for EK in the first place. Comprend?

EK pilots are spread all over Dubai and don't live in one big compound apart from Silicon Oasis. One v One, EK accommodation package is better than Hong Kong. Inidividual variations aside for those that invest, and there are self made millionaires in Dubai as well. I'm talking company house vs company house. Certainly wasn't 1600 pilots last time I looked out my window in Silicon.

Last year, EK probably had more resignations than the previous 5 put together, about 80. Nowhere near that this year. Most of them are well beyond their 3 years so the actual number leaving just after the bond expiry is probably around 1%. Again, no real substance to that rumour.

Apart from that, frogman sounds like he's got it right!

Thing is we're all hoping the other airline increases the anti to chase the elusive pilot, thereby improving our collective packages. So why is CX driving it down again?

[Numero Crunchero]

Whether you want to join EK or CX for reasons other than money is something that cannot be quantified. What can be quantified is the take home pay in both places over time.

The following assumes ERP is paid(7.5% at the moment for UK/AUS/NZ). It assumes 16% tax paid by CX staff - given that education and home purchase allowance are taxable the final average rate is likely to be slightly above or below 16%.

I have assumed no cost of housing -ie CX staff use RFZ. I have not given any value to free utilities or limo pickup in DXB. I have not adjusted EK salary for lower PF (EK 12% for first 10 years then 15% - fully vested after 7 years vice CX at 10 years). I have not included 13th month in hkg -nor have I included EK profit share which has averaged more than a months share over last 5 years.

I have included the imposed 3% payrise for CX but NO payrise next May for EK(payrise every year for recent past).
12 years till command in CX and 5 years in EK. Same hours for both with no overtime for both.

Monthly after tax take home pay, HKD

year 1
CX 29,882 (SO 1)
EK 54,010


year 5
CX 59,258 (FO 1)
EK 60,002 (FO)
year 6
CX 60,209 (FO 2)
EK 82,532 (CN)


Year 10
CX 69,094 (SFO 2)
EK 91,880


Year 15
CX 98,760 (SCN 1)
EK 105,231

[The Wraith]

Right. Anyone actually get Donna's contact details at the roadshow? Could you please PM me if you do? May as well get the ball rolling...
Cheers.:hmm:

[Stagecoach Driver]

At the Emirates Brief was any mention made of the new laws being put forward in UAE to limit ex-pat residency to six years to prevent the loss of the 'Local Identity'. I think it is primarily aimed at sub-continent construction workers but the new law will not be allowed to be that exclusive. Iam sure the airlines will get around it but was it mentioned at the brief?

[Hellenic aviator]

No StagecoachDriver, it wasn't mentioned.