DELTA furloughs

[Nightflyer]

Just turned on CNN here in Florida to see that DELTA are laying off 1700 pilots. Came into Miami on an Air France flight that was full but generally everything here is doom and gloom. Most of the hotels in MIA are empty. Security in general has improved. God bless America!

[LAVDUMPER]

Big question now for Delta is:

What will be the furlough implementation rate? How many per month?

Among the US majors, Delta apparently has the most cash - something like $2.5 billion. Let's hope things get better and those Delta pilots who DO get furloughed are not out for long...

You know it's not a good thing when the world's most profitable airline starts to lay off pilots...

Let's hope that Delta's management is not using the crisis as an excuse to circumvent labor agreements and prune costs (probably the case...). Good luck to all involved!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Wakey, wakey guys

I do not wish disaster on any US airline, but the pilots are about to bring it on their own heads. The recent salary deal for pilots at Delta is laughable in the light of likely losses the company will incur. United may go bust soon and others may follow. If you do not start sorting out your salaries - ie lowering them massively - then you will have no airline to fly for. I know this will upset many of you ALPA boys (I am a BALPA member by the way), but if you continue in the fantasy world many of you are living in, then it will be game over. Don't say you weren't warned!

[Sick]

absolute horse **** NSF; schedules will be axed if they are unprofitable-the hard won pay deals would not make any difference to any but the most borderline case, few enough to count on the fingers of one hand Im sure.

[Elliot Moose]

Comair pilots tell me that their own corner of the Delta game will be the big winners. Delta is already assigning many of the "borderline" routes to them because they can make money flying them with RJ's where Delta's big jets and big salaries chalk up a huge loss.
Where do you think Delta's big cash stash come from in the first place? It sure wasn't from the past few years of mainline flying; it was that 110 RJ's being flown by the guys on food stamps! :D

[YakYak]

Beautifully, and accurately stated, Norman.
Well done, that man.

For those of you STILL in doubt about what the current climate REALLY means, have a look at my post at 'Terms of Endearment' under SR vs. LX

Time to wake up and sniff the Kenyan Blue Mountain, chaps.

GET ON WITH IT! :mad:

[BOEINGBOY1]

to all you that are sitting fat dumb and happy on your flightdecks thinking redundancy won't happen to you. well wake up and smell the coffee.
sick
what the fcuk is the point in forcing pay issues when say, in a few months you might not have a salary at all. your salaries ain't bad at present - nor are your allowances, so why not just ride out the storm for a while (maybe 12mths) and give your company time to stabilize its finances. just remember its better to have a flying job that doesn't pay the most, than it is to not have a flying job and pay far less.

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: BOEINGBOY1 ]

[Iain]

Delta has a clause in its contract saying anyone in the seniority list as of July 1st 2001 can not be furloughed. Latest I have heard is DALPA is going to court over this issue!

[737type]

They do have a "no furlough" clause but given
the current economic atmosphere there's no way in hell the union could win this.

If all you see and hear on TV is about the "new war on terror" and the 9/11 atrocities including the fact that 9/11 is to blame for a lot of airline financial misery, then it's an uphill battle at best.

It doesn't hurt to try though.

[Ignition Override]

My sympathies to any and all furloughed pilots, especially those with children or others having serious medical conditions.

Besides increased flying for Comair, will ASA or Skywest etc increase their lists of cities and/or frequencies? If a substantial portion of this takes place, will Delta's Pilot Contract language limit how much flying is "spun off", thereby preventing longer furloughs for Delta pilots?

It would be tragic to have flying permanently switched to codeshare partners, which could prevent some pilots from being recalled to work.

[Alchemy]

This is a post on another message board from a well known delta pilot who is commenting on the issue (he hasn't been furloughed)

Well, this is my opinion here...
First, DALPA is in the process of suing the company for attempting to break our contract. Any pilot on the seniority list as of July 1, 2001 CANNOT BE FURLOUGHED.

Primarily, there is a large union push among the employee groups at Delta. Delta's trying to make an example out of us to show the other employees the "value" of a union by furloughing, or threatening to furlough, a ****load of pilots.

I can't tell you how pissed I am, not to mention embarassed that they'd use September 11th to serve as an excuse.

I'll try and post the news release from my union a little later on tonight or tomorrow about what's going to take place legally.

I have a lot of friends that are within the furlough target and it hurts me greatly that the company I so proudly raved about would do something like this.

[fergineer]

Out of 7 crews, 4 have been removed from the active list, what did we do about it, nothing we accaepted it. The way the world is , is it worth fighting the companies no why not just wait and see if they recover, I am hopeful to get my job back in the future and no we don't get paid loads of money, I am on the same as I was when I flew for another company 3 years ago and they were not the highest payers then. Taking action at this time in the industry is sheer madness. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[The Guvnor]

The DALPA deal added half a billion dollars of cost to the bottom line at Delta, per year.

That's more money that Delta made, cumulatively, in the past decade.

Anyone who reckons that this isn't going to have a negative effect on Delta - or indeed any company - frankly shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an aircraft.

[Sick]

If it is that much guv then Im quite surprised, though there are an awful lot of pilots there, (I dont work there-know someone who does). But generally I am against agreeing to pay cuts during hard times because they rarely improve the survivability of the airline significantly and as Cathay pilots found, it's very difficult to win the original deal back when the good times roll. There are other, better ways to reduce pilot costs which essentially preserve the pay agreement.

[The Guvnor]

Sick - that figure came from Delta themselves.

Personally, I'm a firm believer in profit sharing coupled with reasonable base salaries. That way, when the good times roll round (as they always do) everyone benefits; and when times are hard then the company isn't overburdened with high costs. One advantage of this is that the need for layoffs of staff would be minimised.

It works at Southwest - why not elsewhere? And for those that say that management will fudge the figures, then use the same criteria as that for management bonuses! :D :D :D

[Sick]

I agree; also v. tax efficient. Unfortunately, like most european operators, my co doesn't go in for profit shares.

[FFPax]

Hi!

My first message here. Just had to register when I saw this thread! I'm a DL Million Miler - one of your (pilot's) real bosses, the ones that pay your salary. I fully agree on NSF; it's an outrage that the pilots even dream about pay raises and even contracts during the times like this. I run an own small business and I think I know what I'm talking about.

Shame on you! The next time we will meet, I'll take a different look at you, the holy pilot. You will recognize me, I'm the one whom doesn't fall on my knees to praise you.

Let Delta - and my miles - live!!! :mad:

[MikeM727]

FFPax wrote:
it's an outrage that the pilots even dream about pay raises and even contracts during the times like this. I run an own small business and I think I know what I'm talking about.

Regardless of what you think, you don't know what you're talking about. Delta pilots ARE NOT talking about pay raises. We HAVE a contract. The raises in our recent contract only brought us up to historical parity with inflation. Our CEO Leo Mullin has been frequently quoted saying just that. The vast majority of other professions's salaries are increasing by far faster than that of pilots. Pilots' salaries are only breaking even in inflation-adjusted dollars. If you think that's unfair...deal with it!

Delta's operating profit in 1995 was $700M. It was $1.3 BILLION in 1996, $1.6 BILLION in 1997, $1.76 BILLION in 1998, $1.9 BILLION in 1999, and $1.9 BILLION in 2000. An increase of labor costs of $100M/year over 5 years is nothing. At the end of the September 2001 quarter, Delta had $2.8 BILLION in cash, and $8.9 BILLION in unencombered aircraft assets. They still expect to have $2.3 BILLION in cash at the end of the year. November bookings are down only 5%, December down 4%. Leo says traffic will be at pre-9/11 levels by Q2 2002. Goldman Sachs is predicting a full-year profit for Delta in 2002.

Yet with the announced furloughs, retirements and military callups, our pilot force will be reduced by approximately 25%. It doesn't add up. It's a BS bluff, and we're not falling for it. We have filed a grievance due to the violation of our contract, and we will win.

All you guys so spun up about about pilot salaries, mind your own damn business, and get a life!

[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: MikeM727 ]

[TowerDog]

MikeM:

Hmm, good posting mate.
You said it....

Hope it will pan out like the forecast's ya quoted.

(AA is painting a pretty grim picture these days: Yet we have some 2.3 Billion in short term investment and quite a few mill in cash.
As the contract is up for negotiations, the picture will remain bleak for a while..)

:(

[The Guvnor]

MikeM727 - umm, that wasn't $100m per year increase over five years - it was US$500m increase in costs per annum starting from this year.

And I said cumulative profit over the past decade - not just the years it made a profit! ;) ;)

[DownIn3Green]

So, MikeM,

Hope we don't see you're arrogant self on the dole line with your bud Brad737...

[vmommo]

FFpax

Driving is an option you should consider if you don't like flying!

[411A]

....well then vmommo, many ARE now driving (instead of flying), and that is certainly part of the problem. Who wants to spend 60 minutes plus in the security line only to be hassled by a minimum wage drop-out?

[vmommo]

May the "sick" companies die! If people don’t fly by stock in GM and Ford.

I am 100% for pure capitalism and that is the beautiful part about America. If companies can't make it they sink. Pilots should make whatever they are able to negotiate, which happens to be the case for most other employee groups, including CEO’s and baseball players. Unions just happen to be an unnecessary evil and a part of capitalism.

Long live profits, high pilot salaries, lean mean companies, excellent CEO’s, employee empowerment and pilsner beer!

[FFPax]

Are the pilots really that arrogant? No respect for their airline's real long time customers!? Do the company executives read this site...

I have done a lot of driving lately. And then there are trains. The reason is not the airline (in)safety, but rather the economy itself. Less money, less travel (by air). :confused:

[Huck]

What you'll find, sir, is that major airline pilots learned a long time ago that they don't get what they deserve - they get what they negotiate. I'll wager you use that philosophy youself in running a business.

Now when times get tough things can be renegotiated. Or in Delta's case, they invoke "force majeure" to claim inability to comply with the contract. The pilots are fighting this, of course - you telling me you wouldn't? Pay cuts will come either way, it just takes some bluster on both sides. This is business - the "Delta Family" perished at the hands of Allen in the early nineties.

Amd a word about customer service: don't let the neat commercials playing during the world series, or the sugary PA announcements of the captains fool you - pilots are most certainly NOT in the service business. They are in the SAFETY business. They are proud, arrogant, and full of themselves - and believe it or not, some dark nights you need all that ego, and more. Imagine holding up 400 people on an intercontinental flight because you don't like the forecast, or something in the paperwork doesn't look right. You don't expect a "customer-oriented" attitude of your surgeon, your policeman, or your lawyer - best not to look for it from your cockpit, either.

[GroupWatcher]

Did anybody realise that over 11000 others had at DAL will have to leave. Haven`t seen any mentioning of sympathy for them.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I am sorry to harp on but there will have to be an air of realism here - particularly from pilots and cabin crew. My heart goes out to all those pilots and others who have lost their jobs in the industry, and indeed to the many others who are about to. I am a simple soul, however, and see businesses like my own finances. The bottom line is this - MONEY IN MUST EXCEED MONEY OUT! If your wages prevent your business from achieving this then you must lower them. It really is that simple. This is not some political statement - just plain common sense.

I am an ordinary pilot and am not in management and have no axe to grind. I look in utter astonishment at what some of my colleagues, spurred on by head-in-the-sand union greed, are demanding from their employers at a time like this. It is like people rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Just wake up people - you are about to price yourselves out of your liveliehoods! How much clearer can I say it? It really is that simple.

[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: Norman Stanley Fletcher ]

[Vsf]

I think we're in bigger trouble than most realize...fuel is cheap, cheap, cheap now–what's going to happen if fuel prices spike because of all this international turmoil? When the war drums are being beaten, a rise in commodity prices often follows.

It looks to me like 411A was one of the only folks who had a good feeling for the fundamental economic situation faced by the industry; even without the terrorism stuff the economy was slowing and the airlines were facing a "cyclical" downturn that they weren't nimble enough to successfully confront. I'm not talking about everyone's perpetual contention over pilot salaries and union stuff, I'm just talking about the bigger, basic economic picture.

Meanwhile, we'll have to see pissheads like FFPax aiming his frustrations at us by gloating at our collective woes. FFPax is obviously one of those losers who doesn't have the "right stuff" to become a pilot, and has been seething in envy and stewing in the ennui of his worthless little life for decades. His badge of courage, "small business owner," means, in his context, "miserable, grubby little merchant." Don't let this delicate little cupcake of a man get under your skin...while he frustrates himself leering at the Flight Attendants, we're the ones who enjoy their company on the RON's.

[Donkey Duke]

Here's the real story. I talked to a Delta 767 Capt two days ago--Fri-Night---who said he was a "Management Pilot" who had just
had a meeting with the Delta VP of Flt Ops.
He said The big wigs over at the Delta
headquarters really don't know "exactly"
what will happen. He said things are changing daily. He went on to say the speech by Leo Mullin was largely for the "investors". According to this Capt
three major points will happen in the near future-- 1: a displacement bid on Nov 10-12
2: On Feb 1st management will decide if they need to furlough additional pilots---if they need to-- 100-150 could be furloughed----and he did not say whether that was 150 a month or just 150 on Feb 1st 3: The next important date will be June 1st----I guess they make their schedules 3 or so months in advance. He said all 1700 COULD be furloughed , but it would be unlikely that
it would go that deep. Delta has 400 or so retirements in 2002. If all 1700 were furloughed--at a rate of 100 a month-- it would take until the end of next year. Since it was said that it is uneconomical to furlough a pilot for less than 1 year----and assuming Delta recalled pilots at a rate of 100 a month----Delta would have it's pilots back by 2005. Give me a break!!! Airlines can't think forward more than 2 weeks in advance---let alone from now to 2005!

Guvnor----you sound like someone who is a whee bit jealous! Keep playing the Lotto and you too might get a boost in salary. The Delta pilots have something you maybe have never heard of: a "Contract"---which was agreed upon by Management---who declared after signing it--"We now have the highest
paid pilots in the industry--" They were happy when the pilots agreed to that contract. Believe it!

FFPAX----Let me guess, you aren't a pilot.
Hmmm----do you have any say in your pay?
Do you get bonuses? Or do you accept anything your employer offers you? IF you had a chance to up your pay and maybe increase your lifestyle and "hit the jackpot"
would you try? Ofcourse you would! Especially if you knew your company could afford it. Times are bad now, and Delta MNGMT and pilots haven't discussed any change in pay---unlikely lower $ per hour---just lowering of cap hours would do it.
FFPAX-----get off your high horse.

MikeM727---you are right on. Delta ALPA
hopefully would win the arbitration--they say
they have the numbers and the No Furlough Clause which states "Even under a bad economy--no Furloughs"--But even if they don't win---atleast there will be a better understanding of "Force Mejeur"---how long it would last etc....

Groupwatcher----Most of those 11,000 who have a 1 year leave can be called back within 2 weeks notice. Hmmmmmmm

We'll see what happens. There was a Wall Street Journal article 2 weeks ago that said Delta might be in the position to cherry pick another airline. (with stocks so low now) Let's hope everything recovers soon.

God Bless! Donkey Duke :cool:

[Ignition Override]

Donkey Duke and "Gang": Interesting dialogue. Let's hear those laymen complaints about contracted (which means signed by both parties) industry-level, or 20% less, pilot pay and benefits immediately after landing at 130+ miles per hour on a slippery runway in gusty crosswinds-and stopping within the runway edges, following a rough instrument approach in snowy conditions or between thunderstorms...with 10,000 lbs of Jet A/JP-5 kerosene sloshing in wings with the tips only four feet above the blurring concrete, at the end of a 12-hour (no rest) duty day. Quite simple. Never mind having a red "master warning" light illuminate on the same final approach or during the next gusty, turbulent takeoff at over 100 knots.

Right, Mr/Mrs Mahogany Desk Jockey (highly qualified in aviation as an F-14 ace at the home computer-four 'Backfire bombers' destroyed with an 'ok 3-wire' carrier landing after the first approach!): no sweat.

If a surgeon makes a tragic mistake, it only injures/kills one person at a time. Maybe our US medical groups should suddenly recruit only surgeons from overseas who will work for one-third the going rates, or less. Let's just put the beancounters completely in charge of your healthcare and pharmaceutical decisions , much more than they are now.

[Vsf]

Ignition...

Well put. Too bad this forum is now a venue of attempted antagonism by some frustrated, Prozac-sucking office dweebs who are leading lives of not-so-quiet desperation. These wretched clerks just want to get a reaction out of professional pilots, since they feel flattered that we'd give them any attention at all. Then they'll slink back to their cubicles, look at the photos on their desks of their fat and ugly wives, and resume their boring, soulless, and stale toil. Sounds like hell to me, dude. Not even the hounds of hell could drag us to that fate.

[MikeM727]

Norman Stanley Fletcher wrote:
The bottom line is this - MONEY IN MUST EXCEED MONEY OUT! If your wages prevent your business from achieving this then you must lower them.

Can you please quote ONE SINGLE member of Delta managment who has stated the need to lower pilot salaries? Delta has not asked the pilots to lower our pay. Managment and the pilot group came to a mutual agreement (contract) on our compensation that was touted as a win-win scenario.

I am an ordinary pilot and am not in management and have no axe to grind. I look in utter astonishment at what some of my colleagues, spurred on by head-in-the-sand union greed...

First, there is no way in hell that you're an airline pilot. Second, since when is barely keeping up with inflation defined as "greed"?

...are demanding from their employers at a time like this. Just wake up people - you are about to price yourselves out of your liveliehoods!

Where are you getting this BS? We are not seeking raises! We have a contract!

Let me explain something to you anti-union morons. The pilot group has much more of a vested interest in the long-term success of the company than any member of management. We have 30-year careers to think about. Management types come and go with their golden parachutes, often leaving companies in ruin. The Delta pilot group will ensure our share of the pie, but will never do something to kill our company. We are not suicidal.

[Donkey Duke]

MikeM727 is correct. The Delta pilots would never try to ruin their own company. Management signed the contract and proclaimed
victory themselves. As the Chairman Leo
Mullin said, "A contract is a contract." Too
bad the No Furlough clause in that contract
is supposedly Null in void. Whatever! The load factors are gradually increasing. And yes, the yields are lower, but the higher the loads over a sustained period of time means eventually fare increase. Delta has
the time and the money----$2.8 Billion or so,
and it will survive. God Bless! Donkey Duke

[OldAg84]

I'm SLF with a few thousand miles shy of DAL's Million Miles baggage tag.

First- what people earn is their own damn business- between themselves and their employer. Period. If one of my competitors came to my boss and said , "OldAg makes $20,000 too much.." I'd drag out back and pound him.

If they "put themselves out of business" because of "greed" - then they have no one to complain to. Period.

Pilots make good money- they work hard- they have a lot of responsiblity. They can't move for more money in a free market fashion. What they negotiate (for better or worse-right or wrong) belongs to them.

Maybe a strategy might be I'll make as much as I can today because I might not be here tomorrow.

In the great sport of capitalism- companies either make it or don't- and how they do it is their business.

[Huck]

Thanks Dad....

[Raas767]

All of you pilot want to be doomsayers that think that pilot salaries are going to force their employers to file for chapter 11 don't know anything about the history of this business. I think Mikem727 said it best and I will add a few points it.
1. When APA signed the infamous B scale contract with AA in 1983 the union bought into the doom and gloom of Bob Crandell and signed one of the most damaging contracts in history. AA pilots were flying at 40% below their counterparts at Delta and United. Did AA make more money because their pilot costs were that much lower? Did they expand that much more? Certainly not! All it did was force the pilots of UAL to strike in order not to prostitute themselfs in the same way. They did sign a limited B scale but not nerely as deep as AA and their airline did fine.
2.In the early nineties NWA management took the company private and saddled the company up with so much debt it nearly failed. The pilots agreed to concessions. They were forced to strike in 98 to get back to industry standards even though the airline had made promises to them regarding snapbacks. NWA is doing fine.
3. SWA is often quoted as being a low cost competitor even though their pilot salaries are quite respectable. They are behind after the DAl contract but you can bet that their salaries will rise substantially in their next contract and it will have nothing to do with SWA's future viability.

Here we are again. Times are bad. People are bringing up the same old argument regarding labor costs. If any of us agree to concessions it will not make the slightest bit of difference as to the future viabilty of our airlines, but it will take years to erase. It took APA 20 YEARS to get rid of B scale. I would caution ALPA at both UAL and DAL to tread very carefully before they agree to any concessions. I know that Delta and AA havn't aked for any yet but I think UAL management has.

Keep the faith.

[OldAg84]

Huck,

You're welcome.

BTW I'm probably old enough to be your son. :)

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Thank you MikeM727 and others for your comments. First of all, I will have to disappoint you - I am an airline pilot (A320/1) and have no part whatsoever in Airline management.

Let me explain something to you anti-union morons. The pilot group has much more of a vested interest in the long-term success of the company than any member of management. We have 30-year careers to think about.

We are agreed then as we all claim we want to look after our future careers. I come back, however, to my original statement that money-in must exceed money-out in order to ensure long-term success. That is not the case in most US majors, particularly Delta. Someone has pointed out that the management was saying what a good deal had been achieved in the last pay round. They could hardly say anything else, but external analysts have all said it was over-generous. Frankly, though, that is irrelevant if the money is there to pay for it. Good luck to you if you have found a golden goose laying golden eggs. The problem is that the goose is having a heart attack!

The Delta pilot group will ensure our share of the pie, but will never do something to kill our company. We are not suicidal.

The pie does not exist - you are losing money hand over fist, and you have to recognise it. Sadly, I believe you are suicidal because you have forced a deal that is unsupportable. You are paid too much because your business cannot pay your wages. That is a straight statement of fact. It may be that there are many others including your management who also must cut their salaries, but if you do not act soon you will be finished.

I started life at the bottom as a bus driver (no, not an Airbus - a double decker bus) and was forced to join what was then the biggest union in the UK (TGWU) and I saw the unions at first hand. To you guys in the States, these were the days when unions ruled the country and were almost impossible to challenge. I was very pro-union then (and to an extent still am, subject to the common sense requirement that I have argued here). I saw union leaders go and demand all sorts of things, and have all kinds of restrictive work practices. For example a bus driver could not change a bulb in the bus, and the bus would be taken out of service for a day with all the lost revenue that would entail, until an electrician could be found. - only certain people could do certain things. Then surprise, surprise -one day the bus depot closed and all the drivers were unemployed because the revenue from the fare-paying public would not support the wages paid to the staff. It was a genunie surprise to everyone there, and none more so than the union leaders. They talked of management conspiricies etc, etc but the bottom line was the money was not there to pay the wages.

So, guys, where does that lead to? It is very simple - your companies are essentially insolvent. Your passengers are not providing enough revenue to pay your wages. Added to that you have restrictive practices (scope clauses etc. which, although well-meaning, limit the freedom of the company to operate the best business it can. There can only be one end to this - bankruptcy.

The US is more advanced than the UK in many areas, but this is one where we have been there before you. (I am a big fan of the USA by the way). We had our years of union madness and we are way past it now. Unions play a vital part in protecting the workforce from the worst excesses of management, but they must have a degree of wisdom. If anything we have gone too far back to the days of management power at employee expense, but the situation in US airlines is very unhealthy. The unions have not acted wisely on your behalf and need to get real.

I realise this is deeply offensive to many of you, and particularly to my colleagues in the States, and no doubt a tirade of abuse will appear. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If you do not act now to assist in making your companies solvent then you will have no jobs. It is just that simple.

[FFPax]

Norman Stanley Fletcher!

BRAVO!!!!

Exactly how I see the things at Delta. The DL management didn't have any choice than to approve the contract. I strike would have been a disaster. Projections showed a better future and constant growth in pax numbers. But then everything changed.

I like the airline of my choice and would hate to see it die.

[YakYak]

Nomran Stanley Fletcher

BRAVO INDEED!

Perfectly stated, and absolutely correct.

You, Sir, are a breath of fresh air, amid a fart-blizzard of indolence. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[ 06 November 2001: Message edited by: YakYak ]

[FFPax]

Wouldn't you think that the airline executives would have a right to know how their highly paid employees treat their customers in public (this forum)?? A little copy-paste-send might be a cure for some pilot attitude problems.

[DownIn3Green]

NSF,

I'm with you 100% on this one...don't let these "head in the sand" union morons get you down.

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Gaza]

FFPax

You make me puke!

Making threats to run and tell tales as you have done here and on the "SLF" threads lowers my opinion of journalists even more. If people want to express their opinions they should be allowed to do so. After all, without freedom of speech where would your profession (journalism supposedly) be?

Don’t you think airline execs are aware of this site and look in regularly? They don’t need little 5hits like you running around and telling tales.

Get a life.

[Wino]

The problem with your arguements is that the airline business is cyclical.

1-2 years from now this will all be a distant memory and the airlines will be back to making a profit, whether or not the pilots or any other group makes a concession. And if the groups make a concession, will the airlines give it back? History emphatically says no.

Delta is sitting on BILLIONS of dollars, and while they are losing money, the losses are less now than they were last month and revenue continues to slowly improve.

Delta piled up a huge warchestduring the good times of the last 5 years or so while they were accumulating cash under a concessionary contract signed during the last downturn. Wages have barely kept pace with inflation. So they may have to spend some of the cash in the short term. It maybe wiser to do that and keep the employees happy so that they might better serve the public, rather than try and wring concessions out of a work force and **** them off and as a result drive away their pax.

Delta had a program called 7.5 ten years ago. They were going to get their seat mile costs down 7.5 cents per mile, thinking that it was the key to competing with Southwest who has 7.0 cents per mile costs. Well, they did it, they got the seat mile costs down to 7.5 and as a result they LOST THEIR ASSES! The customer service that commanded the large fairs were gutted so revenue dried up.

They very quickly backed off that plan and gave everyone else back what they had taken (except for the pilots who were the only unionized employees with a contract) drove their costs UP, improved their service as a result and made BILLIONS. The pilots just took untill their contract was amendable to get their raises.


Continental had a similar program called "CAL LITE" that just about put the whole company back into bankrupcy a 3rd time. The first thing Gordon Bethune did when he took over was the throw out all the managers that thought like you pilot bashers do!


Southwest is NOT a major's competition and they had forgotten that. Southwest competes with the automobile. Southwest and AA coexist in Texas quite well thank you very much, Southwest isn't interested in feeding people, and AA isn't interested in running a cattle car. When southwest comes into a market, they don't really kill the preexisting airlines as much as they generate more traffic because you can fly Southwest for less than it costs to drive. But not everyone likes flying Southwest.

Wino

[Donkey Duke]

To my DEAR Friends Norman Stanley Fletcher and FFPAX,

First NSF: You actually seem to be very knowledgeable person with an opinion I actually respect, but I believe you are flawed when it comes to Delta. Admit it, you
really don't know what is "actually" going on internally at Delta, do you? Hey, you're over there in Europe---and it's not your fault. You weren't there in Atlanta during 7.5, when the management---Ron Allen---tricked the pilots into giving up wages. It's a fact. You really don't know how much money Delta made after making the pilots give up money during the 1996 contract---and when Leo became the leader and the Delta Alpa
MEC asked him to give the pilots back what they used to have---and Leo said point blank, "Hey, a Contract is a Contract." Management was probably happy ---externally and Internally---with the new contract because the pilots DID NOT get everything that they wanted. Greedy? No---during negotiations you must always "go for the moon" and expect less. The company also opened negotiations with the pilots giving THEM things---even during that robust economy. That is how it works. Did the pilots get too much? Hey---you don't get what you don't ask for. Maybe it is different over there in Europe. Norman---maybe your airline is laughing all the way to the bank because they are under paying you
big time. What are you worth? Atleast the Delta pilots put up the bar---and if your company can afford it, then go for it. If they can't--apply to a bigger airline if you want the money. Times are tough now---and the Delta pilots and Mngmt haven't discussed
anything yet---and they might not. The Flt Attendants have a Vote for unionship coming up, and Mngmt doesn't want it voted in.

And to FFPAX----Who are you going to send these posts to? How do you know if anyone on here works for Delta? I can have an opinion about any airline---regardless who I work for. This is a FORUM. You need a life.

Regardless---It seems Delta will be around after all of this is over. Some airlines
will not, and that is sad. I feel for anyone who loses a job over this. Thank you.
Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

[Ontheairwaves]

I heard that the figure for furloughs was only 400 not 1700 pilots....out of the 10700 that they have seems an awful lot???
Also all of you who are bad mouthing the DAL pilots for their pay talks....there are other pilots who are doing just the same thing....
Last week i read that Aer Lingus Pilots are currently conducting a court action looking for a pay rise even though ALT is going down the tubes and laying off staff right,left and centre....yet their money grabbing pilots are in the courts looking for more.
Their request was turned down until ALT get out of money trouble....but still the action was there.....
I guess even the Paddys are just as greedy even if they are not getting as much as the
DAL pilots....
:eek: :confused: :(

[Donkey Duke]

ONTHEAIRWAVES,

Greedy Pilots, huh? You suck! What do you do? Probably not much. This Forum is for Professional-Pilots------get the word "professional". I guess you think professionals should not get paid what they are worth. Who determines their worth?----well you have to negotiate that. You probably think doctors shouldn't be paid much either. A Professional often has lots of RESPONSIBILITY associated with his/her
job. Pilots certainly have that. And there are probably many many more people in that airline that make far more than the pilots
and don't actually do SQUAT for the airline---like United having over 40 Vice-presidents---you never brought that up, now did you? You are un-informed and jealous. Bye Bye.

Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

[swanson]

guv,

Get your head out of your ass. Delta made more than 500 million in net last year alone.

[timmccall]

DonkeyDude and others, I cant beleive that many of you guys posting on this and other boards that work or worked for Delta (or maybe dont)continue to distort the "pay that the pilots gave up in 96" and Leo's "contract is a contract". Even DALPA publishes this stuff to missinform it's pilots workforce. If you are going to talk about these things, at least know what the truth is. It is amazing how many Delta guys dont know the real story because of DALPA's propaganda expertise. Here are a couple of links of one senior Delta pilot and an airline analyst who have written rebuttals against Mr Lay's (DALPA Rep) for Plane Buisiness. They wanted people to know the real truth, not the distorted one. I have read other statements from Delta pilots concerning this issue and they were all in line with these two so I will use them as an example.
http://www.planebusiness.com/perspectives/p021901held.html http://www.planebusiness.com/perspectives/p020701wingman.html

Both of these articles will give you a little insite of the propaganda machine.
Yes I work for DELTA, and yes I pay ALPA dues. I do beleive that the pilots have legitimate gripes and concerns, but if we are going to debate, lets use the real info instead of spreading rumors. Mr Ley's article is also there which you can read.
:(

[Donkey Duke]

47guy,

Sure, a lot of that is probably mis-information or propaganda. We are not dumb people. But, you yourself, working for Delta, probably was around during last X-mas when Delta sued the pilots for"lack of overtime flying" and disseminating all the lies to the other Delta employees. Remember that? Do you? Sure, both sides probably extend the truth a little. And what about Delta MNGMT and the fight over the AFA? Why
shouldn't the Flt Attendants have the right to a Union? Delta sure as heck doesn't want that. So what am I saying? Delta doesn't seem to like labor like it used to. Did Leo say everything that ALPA said he did? The answer is "Probably." Thanks.
Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

[Cisco Kid]

GUV those figures seem a bit exaggerated if they came from Delta "themselves"would that be Delta management? now I don´t know, but if Delta has 5000 pilots a half billion increase in costs works out at 100.000 US$ per head ,& they work pretty tough schedules so could this be bollocks?,I smell a rat,the press releases sometimes get out of hand...what do you think? a half billion is 500,000,000..can´t swallow that one.

[Ontheairwaves]

Donkey Duke
yes i do work for a major US airline and i have many friends who work for DAL...and ALT and yes i still say that the pilots are GREEDY.....why bring down your airline when times are hard ....why not all pull together and help to make the airline survive...after all if the pay increases come at a cash strapped time then the airline may go to the wall and hence you are biting your nose to save your face.....not good management sense..

I guess with your stupid attitudes and replies that you have posted you really do fit the bill of being a DONKEY....making an ASS of yourself.....but i guess you have to broadcast it to everyone else so every knows just what a fool you really are......
:cool: ;) :p :D

[Ignition Override]

Mr. N S Fletcher: Whether I agree or not with some of your points, your style is commendable. Compared to many Ppruners who simply bash any union activity with a large Cro-Magnon club, despite the truth and no job experience with any US airline, your observations appear to be sincere and detached, without the seething personal animosity which so often appears to be the case at Pprune.

Donkey Duke: Don't let yourself be provoked by pilots or others who never even attempted a civilian pilot career.

None of them can begin to understand the US airline/business landscape, due to their exposure only to the US/foreign press and its pre-calculated levels of bias and distortion, or regret that their union has no teeth. With US doctors and lawyers it is an,...ahem... "association".

The unionized pilots at my airline gave up for three years, 15% of our paychecks in the early 90's, mostly due to the leveraged buyout (LBO), which almost sank our company. This buyout had been caused by new owners. They had "mortgaged" the airline, in order to buy it. Just who saved it? To a considerable extent, the employee groups helped out, with paycuts lasting three years.

For those Pprune members who are new here on our blue planet, without the many terrible corporate sharks who had devastated (other) US airlines in the 80s and 90s, we would not even have the union solidarity which tends to exist today. Look at Icahn's (his TWA pilots took a 40% paycut for years, in order save their company!) and Lorenzo's crippling or outright destruction of formerly proud carriers (critical asset sales, "cash upstreaming" into "holding companies"), if still in the dark about this simple concept.

If Pprune readers really hate our US airline unions, partly thank Lorenzo, Icahn, maybe Ferris, Crandall (B-scale) and others (plus the arrogance of so many former/present Congressional/Senate GOP members) for the vital services rendered by our unions. You are worth only what you negotiate.

[ 08 November 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

[Donkey Duke]

Ontheairwaves,


Hmmmmmm. Well, isn't that special. Good one! Maybe (or maybe not) I do work for Delta---regardless I know a heck of a lot more about it than you do. Hello? Bhueler?
You are lame. The pilots and Dalpa haven't gone to Delta yet because they are currently trying to find out through arbitration if their "No Furlough" clause was violated in their contract. The clause---which states
in the "circumstances for which we have No Control"---not Force Mejeur (Which by the way--according to my sources---those words aren't even in the actual contract) states that NO pilot can be furloughed during bad economic times (Now qualifies---umm yep)---regardless of how the company is doing financially. Now, after all that---would the pilots take a "pay cut" or CAP reduction to help the company survive----PROBABLY YES.
But, first they want to see if the furloughs were illeagal. Delta was paid for the days of airplane groundings by the GOVT---and after all that it is all economic. Will the pilots and Dalpa win? Maybe not---but atleast the term "Force Mejeur" will be better explained and more defined. It can't last forever. And, Leo said today at a Solomon Bros. meeting that he expected the loads to be back to pre- Sept 11th by mid 2002---which means by summertime this whole
furlough mess might be over. And to top that off-----Dec 1st more Delta Express flights will come back on line---(the 50% cut will be reduced to 35%). Things will
eventually get better. So, before you go shooting off your dumba@@ mouth ONTHEAIRWAVES, realize that the pilots at Delta want their company to survive, will
help where they can, but want this No Furlough clause thing settled. Remember good old buddy, Leo said---"A Contract is a Contract." Live it and learn it dude!!!

Thanks---Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

[Donkey Duke]

Ignition Override,

Thank you. Finally someone who not only agrees with me, but also understands how unions work in the US and how MNGMT isn't the cureall for all situations. Does Delta and other airlines need help from their employees during this bad time? Sure. Most will get it-----but will it all be in good faith? We'll see. Can't we all just get along? I wish. Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

[Ignition Override]

Donkey Duke: you are welcome. There are those who want to have better situational awareness of how things happen here, and those who don't care-it might deflate their premature conclusions. Send an e-mail sometime.

Smaller Douglas planes are good too, even if it appears that some alien with acid blood fought with Sigourney Weaver in several cockpits.

[aviator]

Without getting into the discussions,

47guy, tell me some more about Delta's BV-234, ATR-72's.....

And Ontheairwaves, how is the commute from Dublin to Delta's domiciles?

[MikeM727]

I come back, however, to my original statement that money-in must exceed money-out in order to ensure long-term success. That is not the case in most US majors, particularly Delta.

Particularly Delta? Delta has been reporting record profits for several years now. Where have you been? Because of the dip in the economy and the 9/11 events, we are in a temporary revenue crunch.

Someone has pointed out that the management was saying what a good deal had been achieved in the last pay round. They could hardly say anything else, but external analysts have all said it was over-generous.

Pro-business publications are, by nature, anti-labor. They will always say labor costs are rising. Guess what, all costs rise...it's called inflation. Why should my salary be exempt from that? The price of bread rises with inflation and it just part of life. But a pilot's salary rises with inflation and he's a greedy bastard who is going to ruin the airline industry. Since 1980, the average pay of working people increased just 66 percent, while CEO pay grew a whopping 1,996 percent. According to Business Week, the average CEO of a major corporation made 42 times the average hourly worker's pay in 1980, 85 times in 1990 and a staggering 531 times in 2000. Give me a break. Who's the greedy one?

The problem is that the goose is having a heart attack! ... The pie does not exist - you are losing money hand over fist, and you have to recognise it.

Don't be so over-dramatic. My goose is a little hungry now, but the future is bright. Our CEO says by July 1, traffic will return to pre-9/11 levels. Goldman Sachs predicts a full year profit for Delta in 2002. That is even considering the economy, and the "over-generous" pilot's contract.


Sadly, I believe you are suicidal because you have forced a deal that is unsupportable. You are paid too much because your business cannot pay your wages. That is a straight statement of fact.

The facts are this: Our management team, AND financial analysts have determined that Delta can and will make a profit, while paying our wages. Yet somehow you know more than our CEO and the analysts? How arrogant are you?

Your little story on unions is exactly 180 degrees out of phase with reality. The European socity is far more socialist and labor-friendly than the US. The US is far more capitalist and pro-business. Unions don't have nealy the leverage over here that you might think. If we did, why are we barely keeping pace with inflation?

The pilots have our own financial analysts. They tell us what the company can afford, while still allowing them to profit, grow and prosper. If they were wrong, we'd get rid of them ASAP. This is our company we're taling about here. It was our before Leo Mullin was here, and it will still be ours after he leaves. WE are the ones with the long-term vested interest, not Leo. When we seek a contract, we seeks wages and quality of life, but we balance that with productivity. That's what our trip rigs and duty rigs are about. It forces the company to build productive trips. When we go to work, we want to be productive, not just sit around. I am familiar with unproductive unions...I worked around the IAM at TWA. They were terrible. DALPA is not that way. We are arguably the least militant union in the industry. We've never struck, and our work rules are for more productive than others. When our financial analysts tell me we need to make concessions, we will. We have done so in the past, and may have to again in the future. But so far our analysts, hell not even our own CEO, has stated that they need concessions. So why am I going to give them up...based on some guy on an internet forum? Yeah right.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

That's right, and the pudding is the bottom line. The bottom line shows that we have made record profits for several years. This year we won't make a profit. We had the Comair strike, softening economy, and 9/11. Absent those extordinary items, it would have been another profit. Still, the sky is not falling, and neither is Delta. We will be profitable once again in 2002, and that's the proof of the pudding.

[Donkey Duke]

MikeM727,

You are right again. Your answers to GUV and other union bashers are to the point and
accurate. Those guys really don't know the
"pulse" of what is truly going on over here.
Try as they must, they always come up short. You and Ignition Override both have sensible answers.

And more Delta news: with the UNFORTUNATE demise of Sabena---it seems Delta will reinstate it's JFK-BRU route---sooner than later--which is good news for Delta JFK 7ER
crews looking for extra lines of time----hey anything helps at this point. Ofcourse, I feel sorry for all of those Sabena guys/girls. There are going to be a lot of out of work pilots. Hopefully they can reorganize into something smaller and stronger. Thank you. Donkey Duke :cool:

[LAVDUMPER]

Ontheairwaves,

Quit making an a$$ out of yourself! I happen to think Donkey Duke makes SOME relevant points (not all, but some).

Are you naive to think that everything management says is truthful? Does Delta's management have an incentive to make things seem more gloomy than normal? Has Delta's management been as forthcoming as YOU have portrayed? No!

You are partially right - employees should pull together in tough times for the betterment of the company... Note the Sabena and Canada 3000 disaster examples. The difference is that Delta is much more successful and resourceful than those other airlines, DESPITE high pilot salaries. Are you catching my drift? Delta can afford high-paid pilots, even in this downturn - which will improve dramatically in the coming months. Delta's management has set negative precedents in the past - they will do whatever they can to circumvent contracts.

Donkey Duke may be a bit verbose at times, but I find his remarks logical and correct considering Delta's strong position (although management would like you to think otherwise).

Ontheairwaves, your analysis of Donkey Duke's name is laughable - it is a play on words. Your mental-midget mind has to point out the obvious... Donkey Duke is insightful - and you are NOT!

Delta will be around and STRONG years from now, and the pilots will need to stand their ground or get screwed like they did in the mid-90s... Stay strong!

[Ontheairwaves]

I realise that as loyal Deltoids you will fight for your jobs....fine i would too...but if your company can't afford to pay you then take what you get while the company is up the creek without a paddle and then once profit is being made get more out of it..but it seems crazy not to look at the whole picture and see what's going on.

As for Sabena.....in the 71yrs of operation they only made a profit twice and once in the last 41yrs.....that's because of European government funding....something that the US airlines are only familiar with after 9/11......but that's another topic on this same forum.....

I don't agree with DAL pilots and their opinions....frankly they are very militant.
I know quite a few people who "worked" for DAL in EIDW but no longer do due to outsourcing to pay the wave for more pilot bonuses.....DAL makes money by outsourcing and then the DAL money grabbing pilots come along and get the rest.....not realising that they are screwing their fellow employees...but do they care....not a bit..

Then the DAL pilots push for more money than other airlines under the threat of a walk out....what does this do for the company moral....through the boots of the rest of the employees and then the DAL pilots wonder "why are we not getting the service we used to have in Europe?"....Duh.....well if y'all had taken a pay freeze a while back maybe the good people in EIDW and elsewhere would still be there.....

Yeah i know DAL pilots call themselves professional pilots.....well i call y'all professional conmen.....
DAL has this attitude that they will be around for years to come....really....well then only time will tell :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

[Ignition Override]

Come on guys, can you keep the debates somewhat impersonal and cool off with some fresh (it's stale after they import it here), opaque, brown beer?

By the way, my US airline has outsourced foreign employees in the past and we were, and are still, nowhere near the top of the US majors' pilot pay.

I met one such former employee a year ago at the small Lufthansa service counter at Munich Airport, directly opposite the larger KLM check-in counter. He was a really nice guy who made some phone calls and helped us get seats on a LH 737 to AMS, during a difficult time (for non-revs), due to a large beer festival. Anyway, was it the fault of other employee groups that he got "outsourced", as he said he was? If I knew his e-mail address, I would thank him again and try to do him a favor. Zum zweiten Mal, vielen Dank fur Ihren grossen Gefallen.

[White Knight]

ontheairwaves; you still haven't twigged even after all the debate. Of course Delta have got the money to pay their pilots their contracted rate. They have after all made a lot of money over the last few years.
However, Delta's management - like many in Europe - are using Sep. 11th as an excuse to ride roughshod over the unions, and worse, as an excuse for their CRAP management... :mad: :mad: :mad:
Good luck to ya'll in the US, I'm certain that the industry will recover and go from strength to strength.

P.S; considering this is the professional pilots forum, there are a lot of desk jockeys out there. Get a life you lot.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Hello again gents.

To MikeM727, Donkey Duke and others over there in the States who are clearly unhappy at my earlier comments -I have read with some interest your replies to myself and others on the subject. I am only too aware of the deeply entrenched positions that exist in the management/unions debate, and to an extent I do not really wish to inflame that. As can be seen from the course of these threads, this is an emotive position that invariably ends in mudslinging and attempts at demeaning the professional crediblity of those who disagree with a particular position.

The arguments presented here are quite good, but to an extent over-complicated. As I have said previously, I am a BALPA member and believe in responsible unions. I also heartily agree with you about the outrageous salary increases given to CEOs which are indeed the unacceptable face of capitalism. There is no doubt that any serious discussion about reforming working practices and running a fighting-fit company must include the issue of remuneration of management - ie not giving obscene pay rises whilst simultaneously lowering the salaries of other employees.

The problem for me is more basic than that. The money that a company makes must be greater than the money it spends. If that is not the case then the company will ultimately go bust - dead simple. The danger of the current rhetoric is that this is not addressed. I contend that in the States right now there is about to be massive unemployment among pilots, cabin crew and mechanics because prior to Sep 11 airlines were being bled dry by both greedy managers and pilots alike. If your business can support your salaries - best of luck to you. I do not believe they can. You say you have your own analysts who seem to know more than the pro-business publications. I hope you are right because right now the tide of evidence is against you. The exact figures escape me, so forgive me if they are not totally correct but off the top of my head the current job losses in the airline industry are: United 10,000, AA 10,000, Continental 6,000, Delta 10,000, Beoing 30,000 etc etc. This is a tragedy for all concerned but to bury your head and the sand and pretend that there is not some correlation between this and the huge salaries being paid is exceedingly unwise. The danger is that you will all wake up to find that your jobs are no longer there and it will all be too late. I do not wish to be provocative here, but reading the tired rhetoric being pushed out on this thread (almost identical to the union talk here in the UK in the 70s and 80s) is the like watching Lemmings jump over a cliff.

I realise that no amount of persuasive argument will make you change your minds, but I stand by my statement that your businesses are simply unable to afford the deals you currently have. If you do not act there will be no business, no careers, no long-term security and no future.

[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: Norman Stanley Fletcher ]

[Capt. Horatio Slappy !!]

NSF and the same Ilk,
Interesting thread, NSF you have some valid points as do all here, however, to attempt to simplify the issues as relate to payscale/contracts etc is a waste of time.
Remember 5 years ago? almost everyone was " Pay for training ", why do you think that was?
That was due primarily to individuals like yourself fueling an Industry incentive brought about by a booming and pilot-rich economy.
The result? Most commuters in general no longer had to cover the cost of training, I don't recall that this small economic windfall was shared with any Airline employee group.
The good news, at least prior to 911, was that a potential pilot shortage coupled with a growing disrespect for those who had helped contribute to the pay for training concept resulted in re-adoption of company sponsored training programs.
Unfortunately Union negotiated payscale increases and job security incentives happen to indirectly benefit all of us in the Industry Including folks like yourself.
Your proposals serve to undermine everything that has thus far been accomplished by the above mentioned efforts and viewed from another perspective could be called treasonous. It is exactly your kind of mindset that cross the picket-line while your fellow pilots risk everything for the good of all. I am overjoyed that you are not a member of my Union.
Happily>Slappy

[Roc]

Norman Stanley Fletcher and All,

I think underlying part of this debate are cultural differences between US and European pilots. I've been on Pprune for a few years now, I also fly for a US major airline. I do percieve a big difference betwwen US and European attitudes towards a flying carreer. In the US we have alot of Major airlines (ie high paying) and I, for one expected to be flying for one as soon as my military committments were up. Not only that, but I even had to choose between which major I felt offered me the best conditions etc. I am not like all US pilots, but a large percentage have similiar experiences. Bottom line is, we are not as beholden to the Airline that hired us. I have many friends who left US Air, or United and took a job at American or Northwest because those particular Airlines were offered them a better lifestyle. Correct me if I'm wrong, but reading Pprune over the years, it seems to me the average European pilot has a much more tougher route to get to the majors, your testing seems more difficult, and more importantly the amount of airlines, and I mean Major Airlines, that pay top-salaries, seem relativley limited compared to here. Therefore, once you've made it to a major European airline it seems you are more apt to "not rock the boat" or demand much. If I were in your shoes I would probably do the same. The US airlines are an entirely different story, Imagine if the UK had 5 or 6 airlines the size and status of BA, would you fly for one that paid 20% less? So US pilots tend to expect more, and demand more, and our airlines have made HUGE profits over the years, they spent these profits lavishly and now when the tough times occur, they immediatly expect pay concessions. We're more than willing to help, but we don't just roll over.....Many of these arguments on Pprune can be better understood if one looks at them from the proper perspective, unfortunatley thats not possible. I do not intend this to say our system is better/worse than yours, just different.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Roc - a very interesting argument. I think there may be a strong element of truth in what you say.

[Roadtrip]

Norman doesn't understand that the real reason the industry is in trouble is because of NOT ENOUGH PASSENGERS. Airline capacity grew steadily over the last few years in response to customer demand. With the economic downturn and the hard left hook of 11 Sep, the whole industry has too much capacity. Salaries are not the prime driver. Even if UAL, DAL, AAL, et al had lower compensation, the industry would still be losing. It's fashionable to make labor take the lion's share of the blame when the problem is a combination of factors including poor management decisions, terrorism, general economic downturn, etc. In such a capital intensive business, it's virtually impossible to react to fast turns in economic, political, or wartime realities. And guess what? It ain't gonna change anytime soon, unless you want to re-regulate and make the cost of flying only for the well-off.

[Donkey Duke]

Norman Stanly Fletcher,

When times were good at Delta---Leo Mullin said, "A Contract is a Contract." Now times are bad, and Leo expects help. Delta pilots
do not want their airline to go under, but
they want respect from MNGMT and what is fair. Delta has the cash and will survive
this---that is for sure. The pilots will
probably help----but they want recognition
that "A contract is a Contract." Live it and learn it Norman. Thanks for being civil.

Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

[Turtlenest]

Here's what I don't understand. The majors operate in monolopy superhubs which allows them to cut the travel agent out of the equation, they provide few in-flight ammenities, and in the case of Delta, no meals on flights less than 4 hours(probably 95% of DL routes). So why can't they make money?? I don't suppose it could the lack of service. why would I pay DL prices and get SW service????

[kb2lily]

Guys-
looking at the big picture, there are some things that are quite obvious:

1. Airlines aren't making money with the current load factors

2. (Most) airlines need such high load factors because their costs are so high (example, KLM needs a load factor of 83% to "break even" whereas RyanAir or EasyJet only need load factors of 55% - or thereabouts- to "break even"). Anything above those numbers is revenue. When airlines keep their costs down (fuel, salaries, etc.) they can last during cyclical downturns, as well as prepare for these cycles.

3. In general, people not flying because they're scared to, is not the number 1 reason why the planes aren't full. It's because the world economies are in the tank, and businesses are cutting back money spent on travel (regardless of the mode of transport). Hence the reason to stretch the travel budget and focus on the low-cost carriers such as WN and it's types. If the airlines could control their costs, and thus, offer better rates for business travel (not business CLASS but business in general) they'd have full planes again.

4. Sure, airlines are cutting obvious costs, such as meals, etc....but they miss the true point and bulk of the possible saved money. Airlines have to learn to function better and achieve better productivity out of their employees, to make sound changes for the long-term future. Think of all the points of failure in a process, and the number of people and processes it takes to have around to correct that failure. You remove (or heavily reduce) the points of failure, and you have great cost savings.

5. The airline biz is very cyclical- every 4-6 years is a downturn of 1-2 years. We were due, irregardless of 11Sep. It is up to the airline/company to prepare for these during the up years, so they aren't in pain during the down years. Obviously, nobody was playing devil's advocate during these up years, and paying attention to all this new capacity that was being put on the lines. No industry can grow at the patterns this one has over the past 20 years, and continue to think it's going to be that way forever. There are only so many people on this earth, and only so many that a. want to fly, b. need to fly, c. can afford to fly.

Having survived the horrors of near bankruptcy at NW in the early 90's, I speak from experience when I say that people need to support the company as a whole and do what it takes to make it survive. Sure, you can say it was the lame management that got you into this sh@t and they should be the ones to get you out. But as I watched all the Sabena pilots striking just 2 weeks before the airline went belly up, I could only shake my head. Do they want a job or not? Striking was not going to make Sabena any healthier.

I took the pay cut NW requested to help bail them out during that period. It not only included a pay cut, but took away part of my vacation pay/time, as well. In turn, I got stock in the company. We all become "owners & operators" with a say in what the company did (to the point that a pilot rep was on the NW Board). In roughly 3 years time, I was back to my regular pay and benefits, & knew how much my stock had to be worth (before I could sell it) to make back the earnings I had lost. But I kept my job, the airline kept flying, and I looked at my job from a new angle-- I owned (and still do) a part of that company, and I would do whatever I could, as one person, to make the company work. Whether it was customer service, helping a colleague, or proposing a cost-saving idea.

I'm certainly not advocating pilots be paid any less than they can negotiate-- but after a certain point, get a handle on the big picture and think of the future- yours and your company's.