Rex and the Media Release

[beerlover]

Media Release
9 October 2007
REX WARNS OF LOOMING CATASTROPHIC SHORTAGE OF PILOTS IN AUSTRALIA
Regional Express (Rex) today warned that Australia is facing a severe shortage of pilots and that this will turn into a crisis in 12 months time as demand by the larger airlines intensifies to cope with their unprecedented expansion plans.
Commenting on this shortage, Rex Chief of Staff Jim Davis said "Already some airlines are struggling to find enough pilots to crew their regular schedules and many are resorting to cancelling flights to cope with the situation. The Rex cancellation rate, for example, is now running at four times historical levels. The latest DOTARS statistics, which are for July, show Rex with 0.9% of flights cancelled, Qantas at 1.6%, QantasLink at 1.0%, Virgin at 1.1% and Jetstar at 0.3%.
"However the situation is predicted to get much worse. Based on industry feedback, we estimate that the net additional requirement for pilots will be of the order of 1,800 over the next two years. The supply of new Airline Transport Pilot Licences (ATPLs) every year in Australia is less than 400.
"It is obvious that the major carriers will not allow their brand new jets to sit idle on the tarmac. They will do everything they can to fill up the shortfall by raiding the regional airlines, general aviation, flying schools and specialist organisations like the Royal Flying Doctor Service, something they have already started doing in earnest. Of particular concern will be the loss of experienced flying instructors to the airlines.
"The smaller operators have no defence against such massive recruitment as they are in no position to match the salaries and conditions of the large carriers. Over the last three months, more than 20% of our pilots have been poached by Virgin, Jetstar and Qantas and I am sure the situation is similar or worse in the other regional carriers.
"It is almost too late to avert some of the disastrous consequences in Australia of the looming pilot shortage as it takes at least eight months to train a new pilot. We foresee the possibility that many smaller regional cities of below 30,000 passengers per annum will no longer have an airservice as regional airlines are forced to concentrate on the bigger and more profitable routes. Also we foresee that some regional airlines and General Aviation businesses will be unable to maintain their operations as they struggle to keep up with the massive turnover of pilots.
"While Rex has taken a big hit recently, we currently have our full establishment of pilots. However 15% of them are undergoing various stages of training and will be phased in over the next two months.
"Rex is fortunate in being able to attract a sufficient number of applicants to join our ranks. Furthermore our very healthy financial situation has allowed us to implement a cadet scheme whereby 40 cadets annually will be sheltered from most of the cost of the pilot training in return for a five year commitment. We are also in discussions with several parties to run our own flying school so that we can be assured of a regular supply of pilots of the high standard that Rex requires.
"Rex has done all it could and we call on the Government to respond to this looming crisis by urgently implementing similar bold and decisive measures. The high cost of flying training, estimated at around $80,000 per individual, is the main reason why there are not enough commercial pilots being produced today. If the government can subsidise the education of lawyers, accountants engineers and other professionals, surely it can recognise that the piloting profession is equally worthy of assistance. Today there is not even a fee loan scheme outside of the tertiary institutions that aspiring pilots can tap into to turn their passion to reality" Mr Davis said.
Rex is Australia's largest independent regional airline operating a fleet of 34 Saab 340 aircraft on 1,300 flights weekly to 25 destinations from Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Brisbane. The Rex Group comprises Regional Express, air freight and charter operator Pel - Air Aviation and Dubbo based regional airline, Air Link.
END

[freddyKrueger]

"If you're a young bloke and at the end of that time you've got 3000-3500 hours in a Saab command, you're very eligible to get into Qantas or some place like that," he said.
Rex lures pilots with cheap loan deal, The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22531452-23349,00.html)


How ironic, luring prospective cadets with the prospect of moving to the 'majors', then complaining when they do.

[eba6]

Seems Airline execs have some tough lessons to learn,It is their right to cut pay and conditions as they see fit,but don't be surprised if your average or for that matter above average 16 year old ain't interested in a flying career when he can invent the next computer game and can buy his own airline!:eek:

[Keg]

There is so much crap and spin in this release that it makes me sick.


...our pilots have been poached by Virgin, Jetstar and Qantas ...

Poaching is when you trepass onto someone else's property and take something that doesn't belong to you. I'm pretty sure that QF haven't directly approached REX crew to get them to jump ship and so you can take your hyperbole and shove it. You don't 'own' the pilots. They don't 'belong' to you no matter how much you want that to be the reality. Perhaps if you didn't treat them like ****e they wouldn't be thinking about jumping ship.

"It is almost too late to avert some of the disastrous consequences in Australia of the looming pilot shortage as it takes at least eight months to train a new pilot.

Drongo. It takes about 12 months to get them to CPL standard and it'll take another few months beyond that to get them online. You're not outof the woods on this one until 2009. Don't bitch and moan because pilots have been telling you now for a couple of years that this was coming. You didn't believe them because you were still focussing on driving down terms and conditions. Reap what you sow.

"While Rex has taken a big hit recently, we currently have our full establishment of pilots. However 15% of them are undergoing various stages of training and will be phased in over the next two months.

Which sounds like you're currently down by about 15% of line pilots. Any you lose in the next few months- and you will lose them- mean that you're still going to get caught short.

...implement a cadet scheme whereby 40 cadets annually will be sheltered from most of the cost of the pilot training in return for a five year commitment.

Sheltered from most of the cost? Hardly. If I read it correctly REX just guarantee the loan. The candidate still has to pay it off. Either way, a five year ROSO for just $40K worth of training (they only do half) is still a crap deal. This won't save your backside.

"Rex has done all it could...

No you haven't. You've stuffed this one up mightily. Whilst I don't disagree about the funding you're full of BS to state that you've done all you could. What you have done is to bury your head into the sand right up until the day that you started to park aeroplanes. Reap what you sow.

The high cost of flying training, estimated at around $80,000 per individual, is the main reason why there are not enough commercial pilots being produced today.

No it's not. It's the crap rates of pay that you and your ilk offer people who need to pay off that $80K that is the reason.

Reap what you sow you morons. You can't say you weren't warned! :twisted:

[7e7100]

I like this part...

"Of particular concern will be the loss of experienced flying instructors to the airlines".

Do you think there could be a substanial pay rise for experienced instructors within the next three years?

[Aussie]

Payrise will be the last resort, they will exercise every option before it comes to that!

[international hog driver]

Wake up REX (& every other operator in Australia for that matter)

The horse has bolted. You reap what you sew.

Ask why 16 of 20 guys I learnt to fly with have now permanently left the industry.

Ask why of the 4 of us left only one is left in Oz.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Management bonus'.......LMFAO

If you want a profit generating, proactive and stable crew levels. How about putting in as much as you want out.

Management 101?
CRM (Company Resource Management - is should be)?

Oh thats right, you dont get up at 4.30am to crew the 6am departure. Oh, you dont get home after midnight because the last flight just made the curfew due to delayed arrival of the aircraft.

I am so glad to be out of the Oz, bitching, wingeing, moaning, cut to the bones, outsourced, top heavy managment, bean counting society that Australian Aviation at all levels has become.

You only have one person to blame and that is yourself. No point in wingeing to the government because you cant find'em.

How about raising the crew remuneration so that it actually is more than a local council worker in Sydney.
How about scheduling crews with respectable rest periods (aka lifestyle)

Productivity Bonus' LMAO
Performance Bonus' LMAO
Financial reward for financial control...... WTF are you smoking.

Productivity means that the aircraft actually fly with fare paying passengers.

Started in the year before 1990, continued in the mid 90's. Nailed in 2001, cut to the bones in 2003, Hospice in 2006, RIP 2008.

QF EBA Late
DJ EBA Stalled
Eastern EBA (nobody remembers - they've all left)
NJS - Work Choices..... my rodents rotund rectum!

Last one out - please remember to turn off the lights as part of your reduced carbon footprint.

LMFAO:}

[DeafStar]

Keg you are spot on. I think we will see retetion bonusus soon. I really think some of these airlines like Rex and Qlink will realise the train new pilots option is too late. They have to stem the blood loss somehow. Cadet schemes aint a good bandage. Retaining your current staff is.

[KRUSTY 34]

HOLY SH!TE KEG....!,

I was planning my own response, but you hit just about every nail squarely on the head!

Very well put my friend.

[Erin Brockovich]

I think it might be time to enlighten Mark Vaile as to the real issue and compare what Rex and other regionals pay their pilots to that of other professions. Sh$tty pay is the main reason for the pilot shortage. It is so obvious it’s frightening. Can anyone suggest an effective means to get his attention on the real issue? It is time to act!

This sort of misinformation from Rex and the like needs to be publicly challenged and corrected. If they don’t want to remunerate properly than that’s their death sentence, but to publicly spout this sh$t is crossing the line.

Watch this space!!!

[teggun]

QANTASLINK can solve their attrition rate overnight by allowing career progression into mainline, lets say minimum time in QLink 5 years.

Allowing 40 - 50 pilots a year to progress through, controlling the attrition rate at 40 -50 rather than the 100 + a year. In that time new crew will have a command within lets say three years, then move onto mainline themselves.

At this stage it is easier for QLink drivers to gain career progression into Virgin than it is into their own Q group airlines.

If they don't do something very soon it will be way to late, and like Rex the cancellation of flights will follow. :ugh:

[boocs]

What Keg said...

b.

[stable approach]

What Keg said...

[Towering Q]

Well said Keg.:ok:

There's only one thing I would add...

Furthermore our very healthy financial situation has allowed us to implement a cadet scheme

If your financial situation is so 'healthy' why can't you pay your pilots what they're worth?!:ugh::yuk:

[bushy]

Are there any pilots who have applied to airlines and not got in, or had a reply? Is there a real shortage, or is this just a scheme to get government to foot the bill for basic training, type endorsement etc?
How many CPL's can our flying schools and MPL schools turn out per year for our own airlines?
Airlines will never pay decent wages if they can persuade enough people to train at their own, or government expense so they can have a large pool of wannabies parked in GA until they need them.
They have almost destroyed GA by doing that, and it is now affecting the regionals.
Flying schools and our airlines have killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

[chad sexington]

I'm getting out of this business.
When industry chooses long term options like subsidising training over looking after existing staff then f*^ck em.
Its gonna be low cost for ever more.
Grab what you can while you can folks, I don't think $30 airfares are gonna keep us all employed.

So long
Chad Sexington

[ScottyDoo]

How many CPL's can our flying schools and MPL schools turn out per year for our own airlines?


Has MPL become a fait accompli, then?

Seems to have become an accepted factor in the game.

[international hog driver]

Both Bushy and Chad have very valid points.

I know quite a few Aussie B737 rated guys here in Europe (self included) who have never even heard a peep from VB. Shortage……maybe, maybe not can anyone at the coal face actually say they have parked aircraft against the fence for the need of additional crew???

A young fella I know was given the ultimatum by the new wife, flying or her, he chose her. After being punted from pillar to post by operators who need the requisite 3 shuttle landings, 10 renewals, rated and current on every type in the fleet blah blah blah that we have seen in days gone past . Why would you want to.

Chad….. sunrise in the cockpit as you pop through the low stratus just past o-dark-thirty is very hard to beat as a career choice. :ok:

[Ramboflyer 1]

Im a Captain ,applied for tiger virgin and jetstar, heard nothing and im willing to go right seat. im considering giving up flying and getting into the mining industry just to live at home. What shortage......................

[Aussie]

Mate, i couldnt agree with you more....

Ive got a couple mates here in Europe, aussies, who have over 6000hrs and TR and still nothing from VB or QF!!!

So much for a shortage!

[PlankBlender]

Aussie, Rambo, Hog Driver, when did you actually apply to Aussie airlines?

We all know memories of HR departments are short and many administrators will not go through CVs that came in months ago unless they really really have to, and it looks like things aren't bad enough for that..

Maybe pilots who recently applies can share some of their experiences about responses..

[greenslopes]

Rumour I heard was that VB had "updated" their hold file and subsequently lost many applications.
If your O.S mates have not heard it may be they have dropped off the Radar.
Re-apply and hopefully they will be more succesful

[freddyKrueger]

Keg, Love your work.

This looks like a cynical, rent seeking attempt to extort the next Federal government using regional Australia as the hostage, to gain another subsidy (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/22/1959243.htm) for profit.

Here they are boasting that their Return On Equity is 23% in the latest Investor Briefing (http://www.rex.com.au/_lib/03_07_07/Media_Releases/Investor%20Briefing%2029Aug07%20Slides.pdf).
‘Privatising profits, socialising the costs’ - Straight out of the National Party play book.

[eye_in_the_sky]

What Keg said.

I am a shareholder in Rex. At least until they release them out of hold and I can sell them.

In other large Companies, lack of Action from Management leading to such a poor situation for Shareholders would result in HEADS ROLLING.

Wun-Hung-Low has in the past indicated his displeasure in the management team he inherited.

--- quote from an email Oct 06:
i will be the first to agree that these managers will not be my first choice for my dream team of the perfect management team. i work with what i have and i think on balance we have done some pretty fabulous things in spite of obvious limitations on the part of most managers.
---

What a waste.

[Track Direct]

Keg,

A very accurate summation of the situation ! :ok:

When will these management faarkers wake up ??? :ugh:

"You reap what you sow" !........... hear hear ! :D

[XRlent100]

"If the government can subsidise the education of lawyers, accountants engineers and other professionals, surely it can recognise that the piloting profession is equally worthy of assistance."

Should it be "If Rex can see the pay scales of lawyers, accountants, engineers and other professionals, surely it can recognise that the piloting profession is equally worthy of greater remuneration."

Its a start at least that they recognise it as a professional position, now they just have to recognise it in dollar terms.

Cheers

[JetRacer]

And the AFAP, God bless their souls, sent me an email regarding the press release with the title:

Pilot shortage - The penny finally starts to drop
This was a REX press release issued today:

Pity the big pennies the members pay you are not working for our benefit... :{:ugh:

Still they don't do anything to help the pilots already at REX. :=:rolleyes:

No wonder NJS went to the TWU to get some REAL help! :E

[aircraft]

Keg,

Your post was rubbish.

There is a certain little reality that you and most posters to this thread insist on remaining breathtakingly ignorant about:

Rex cannot afford to pay the T&Cs posters here are demanding!

How many times do I have to say this? Don't you think it obvious, especially given that all other similar operators in Australia pay about the same?

You seem to think that upping the T&Cs is as simple a matter as flicking a switch. If it were that simple, don't you think the management would have done that? Obviously you think the management would rather threaten the existance of the company and their own jobs than flick that switch.

And how about a little more honesty? A number of posters are suggesting that with suitable T&C increases, the experienced pilots will remain at Rex.

This is simply not true. You know it, and management know it. The management have recognised that the cadet scheme will bring them far better return on the investment than paying it to the existing pilots.

[armslides&crossdress]

What a load of PR Bull#*%t

Media Release " Rex has done all it could and we call on the Government" also quotes They have a very healthy financial position...

so then I don't know maybe >>> PAY MORE = KEEP MORE.. not rocket science

but that is not good for the annual Bonus review is it

... However the minning industry is not paying unskilled labourers well over 100 grand due to the goodness of their hearts... its due to the Operation needs then to keep turning = keep feeding the profits thru = shareholders happy

All these Virgin / Jetstar / Rex / others ..Management types :
Read the other posts here and over the last year or more

We overseas based aussies with more time than you can poke a stick at (realative to recruitment) and not yet grey... are sick of reading about the pilot shortage when our applications go unanswered...

So why is this so... :hmm:

Don't recruit pilots who are used to being paid what they are worth ?....

Don't recruit pilots with more experience than the Management Pilots .....as may pose a threat to their cosy position down the track.

Yes there are those ( minority) who may come in and tell them how to run a real airline ... but that is possible with any recruit given the ego's of many in this industry and just maybe that in itself (ego) helps explain the recruitment thinking of these Recruitment Managers.

" Stuff them all, They chose to leave Aus and go fly that Heavy O/S.. now after making some bucks they want to come home, they can Go Get Fu%#@d " -
We will cancel services rather than meet crewing demands with available Pilot applicants>>>> :ok: Genius

The Aussie mind at work / one hopes this is not the case !

Pilot Shortage ?? Aussies based outside Of home wanting to come home
in their 30s's many with widebody left/Right seat time or
Bizjet or ...the list just goes on.

....Yeah I know .." Flogging a dead horse "

[ABX]

Straight out of the National Party play book.

Surely you meant Labour Party play book?

[Erin Brockovich]

Welcome back aircraft, I hope you’ve acquired a nice tan.
Rex cannot afford to pay the T&Cs posters here are demanding!
This (http://www.rex.com.au/_lib/03_07_07/Media_Releases/Investor%20Briefing%2029Aug07%20Slides.pdf) says otherwise.
Profit after tax up by 50.4% to $23.6M
Don’t know about this though Lowest flight cancellations
Which would certainly affect their outlook for Projected earnings growth of 10% for FY07/08
This latest press release was nothing more than a public slap in the face to all of Rex’s current pilots. You might be right after all. It doesn’t matter how much Rex pays now because the pilots won’t stay with a company that despises them. The management mentality obviously wont change.

[Lodown]

Aircraft, there are two camps that are widely opposed and you're in the one with big areas of open ground between tents. In my opinion, I don't think Rex can NOT afford to pay pilots more. It's as simple as that. If they can't afford to be in business, then they don't deserve to be in business. If fuel prices go up by 100%, they can afford to pay that. They have to! They are a small fish in a big pond with no influence over fuel prices. What's so different when the price of pilots goes up? They can bleat and bemoan the shortage, appeal to the government and start a cadet scheme. They can blame other airlines for "poaching" their crews. At the end of the day, they're cancelling flights for lack of crew. If they can't afford to pay pilots more, then so be it. They'll simply go out of business. It seems to be a classic case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

[Keg]

I'm going to borrow a great saying from a colleague on Qrewroom.

Being monstered by aircraft is like being gummed by a two day old puppy.

I thought you were an advocate of supply and demand? REX doesn't have the supply, they need to pay more. Obviously they need to find the money from somewhere. I'm sure the shareholders would accept a cent or two less per dividend adn pay the pilots more rather than park aeroplanes and get no dividend at all. :rolleyes:

Alternatively they can cut the terms and conditions of the management....they're obviously a dime a dozen considering that these ones couldn't foresee or do anything about a looming pilot shortage in time to avoid parking aeroplanes.

[Lodown]

Maybe that's the problem Keg...bonuses tied to share price. Dividends go down. Share price goes down. Cost of capital goes up and bonuses go down.

[Blown Seal]

Lodown...whilst that maybe a component of management bonuses, surely profit is the main driving factor.

Cancelled flights equals lost opportunity for revenue which equals lost profit.

Unless of course they were flights undersubscribed by pax and would not have turned a profit in the first place.

[Fenwicksgirl]

I believe the current "crisis" is two fold.
First, local airlines have had it so good for so long they are very reluctant to try and meet international T&Cs, meaning local pilots flock overseas for better paying jobs etc. This in effect causes a flow on effect at home causing the local airlines to pillage the regionals as they know they will fly the big shinny jets for the going rate. etc etc.
Secondly, the big guys have managed to rape this industry/career so much that young guys/gals no longer see a return for the big investment needed to become a pilot. As was mentioned, get a degree, work Mon-Fri and earn as much..no brainer!!!
My point, the airlines are to blame for the current crisis, the government has helped them out over the years and our cries of foul play have been ignored. (Whinging glorified bus drivers) The profits of these companies are still soaring and they dare ask the government for help!!!! No doubt it will be our fault again!!!
REX: Increase your T&Cs, yes less profits next year. To compete with airlines, how about lifestyle rostering, part time, roster share, profit share, free jumpseat travel and weekend penalty rates. Might just attract some senior guys, fed up with the international flying, come ack to enjoy some good old fashion regional flying without the crap rosters etc etc!!

[Shark Slayer]

The solution I believe is not only salary, although they will have to increase and should as they have declined in real terms since '89(no I'm not involved in that dispute on either side) but also one which can offer an improved lifestyle. At present all operators see staff as a liability not an asset and treat them with something akin to utter contempt. F&D limits are'nt limits anymore but targets no matter how ridiculous a roster it produces and pilots basically are expected to show incredible flexibility in accepting changes for no benefit.
There is no reputable union at present, although the NJS pilots seem to be having some joy with their union so that may be a bit harsh, but if there was I suspect it would'nt matter under the present regime in Canberra. What is needed is more input from staff, after all most staff want to see their operator succeed not only for job security but for personal gain as well. That I fear is extremely unlikely as we have a mutual loathing, management treat staff appallingly and in return they are hated for it - all very mature!

[neville_nobody]

Aircraft
Why is it that supply and demand or the "we need to pay the big money to management to attract the people we need" applies to management positions yet the same principle does not apply to the pilots? If REX cannot find pilots at the current pay level surely the wages must rise? And don't forget that REX are hardly coming off a high base wage. Given the cost of a license REX's salaries are well below what would be considered big salaries. I have read your stuff of price elasticity but using that logic REX will just park aeroplanes.

Management teams across the country need to deal with reality. They want people to fund their training and expect to pay them very badly. After 50 years things have come full circle. Either you pay the money for self funded pilots or you pay for all the training and keep salaries at a lower level. I don't see any alternative, as importing pilots won't be an option because there aren't any to import. I suppose you just park you gear against the fence.

[Launch_code_Harry]

Being monstered by aircraft is like being gummed by a two day old puppy.Keg, I believe it actually "like being savaged by a dead sheep"

[Fliegenmong]

Ladies & Gentlemen, fellow highly esteemed ppruners, I am truly puzzeled as to why, with such a high collective IQ, anyone here actually dignifies Aircrafts fragrently ludicrous posts with a response, let alone reads them - the mind boggles :yuk:

[victor two]

Good to see that everyone agrees on this topic..............good to see that noone is in denial about the real world realities of working in the aviation industry.

Here's a wild idea - Why not just all shut up, apply for jobs that you want, keep positive, decide what T&C's you are content and try and contribute something to the company as long as you wear the uniform and get your big noses out of each others affairs? If you are happy with the rex conditions then go work for rex and move on when the time is right, same as for jetstar, qantas or whoever.

It's one thing to pull faces and say that the employers will reap what they sow but the same goes for every pilot out there too. It's not like pilots have not played a role in keeping the industry from this situation!

Wake up to yourselves!

[Fliegenmong]

Uh huh - wheres the fun in that though?? :\

[ABX]

Wake up to yourselves!

Yes Dad, sorry. Can I go out in the street and play cricket with the other pilots now Dad?

:E

[Fliegenmong]

Quote:
Straight out of the National Party play book.

Surely you meant Labour Party play book?

No no surely you mean LIBERAL party handbook :D

[ABX]

Okay, okay: it's from a political play book!:}

(Have we mentioned the Fabian Society yet?):E

[Jock McPlop]

You'll need a hanky when you listen to this:{

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/qld/content/2007/s2055978.htm

[OldChinaHand]

And:

Airline Pilot removed from required "skilled occupation list" as pubished by Aussie Immigration. Is there a REAL shortage?

[DarkBlue]

All the anger at the media release aside. Does anyone know how rex will be selecting their cadets. The website says "special selection procedures" to qualify as a rex cadet. What does that entail?

Im just about to finish a CPL in WA and was wondering if I was going to be eligible to apply. But the way I read it only totally green pilots with no training appear to be eligible.

Does anyone have any information on the selection process and so forth?

Thanks for any information.

[FlexibleResponse]

When its all said and done, it comes done to a simple matter of supply and demand.

If supply is down and demand is up, the price goes up.

If you don't want to pay the market price, then you don't have an airline.

Get with the program or get out of town.

Your choice, we don't care!

[Paper Planes]

I really don't know why REX is bothering with cadets that have never flown a plane. What about the existing pilots in the industry? :confused: There must be 40 pilots in GA each year that have commercial licenses and instrument ratings that only need to be endorsed on the saab?

Does anyone know how rex will be selecting their cadets. The website says "special selection procedures" to qualify as a rex cadet

I will have a guess that they want fresh young cadets straight from high school to justify keeping them on low wages :E :yuk:

[rammel]

I too know someone that Jetstar and Virgin have not got back to. They have well over the min required and lots of turbo time as well.

This person recently left Aust as he got a job in Asia flying B738's. What's more is that he didn't have to pay for his training and at the end of his 3 year contract there is a 15% gratuity paid.

As an aside, is the website the airlines use really helping them to sort through and find suitable applicants. There does seem to be a lot of people on here saying they haven't heard anything from the ones they have applied to.

[ABX]

rammel,

As an aside, is the website the airlines use really helping them to sort through and find suitable applicants.

What website is that mate? I would be most interested if you would post the link here.

[rammel]

I'm not too sure, but wasn't it staffcv or something like that.

I know this guy had kept his details updated and still had never heard anything from Jetstar or Virgin. I'm not sure if Rex uses this site or not.

He also never applied for Rex as it would have been a pay cut from what he was getting.

[ABX]

Oh yeah, Rex use that too.

Thanks.

[training wheels]

I really don't know why REX is bothering with cadets that have never flown a plane. What about the existing pilots in the industry? :confused:

They need some leverage so that new recruits don't jump ship for greener pastures. If Rex trains pilots from zero hours to RHS in a Saab, then they have the right of a return of service for what they've invested in.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Over on the supply side: yes, the high cost of training is a major impediment. But the young generation has to be "inspired" to take up the profession. And while we continue to treat little Johnny and little Mary as potential terrorists, and ban them from visiting flight decks, they will never see the job, become excited by it nor develop any aspirations to pursue such a career.

The dwindling numbers that do aspire to professional flying are then increasingly deterred by the insane security reqts, such as ASIC before first solo. The keener ones persist for a bit and get to PPL. Only then do they really begin to look at the reality: the sheer cost of a CPL vs potential earnings. So is anyone actually surprised many people don't continue to CPL and that the supply side is now drying up? I predicted this 5 years ago in a letter to the QF CP, and was basically told "live with it, come along for the ride or get off the bus." Well, here we are today.

I just hope my LH colleagues are not as short sighted as my fellow QF SH pilots and don't get locked into a 5 year EBA. Because the rewards are there for your rare skills now. And the same can be said for any other CPL holder in Aus with a couple of 1000 hrs under your belt. Whilst it's impossible to record such experience on a balance sheet, WE ARE VALUABLE ASSETS. As the bean-counters in the majors are rapidly and reluctantly being forced to acknowledge!

[drshmoo]

Well first of all I'd like to say that I never worked for REX. Several of my mates did/do and they have all enjoyed their times their in a professional company with good people who have good will - accountants can't see this on a spread sheet so therefore it doesn't exist.
From my understanding many of the older VERY experienced Saab drivers are from Kendells and Hazos days that had rosters that appealed to families. Now they are running rosters close to max with long duties, so the lifestyle just isn't what it used to be.
Pay - Compared to other Regionals they are on par but that’s because the whole Regional T&Cs have been living in the dark ages. Not just for pilots.
Early this year was with ex GF in wagga helping with her work on a property and the owner was a worker for REX and he was telling me how they couldn't keep staff in the hanger cause they could get more at the local saw mill in wagga earning $20 an hour. The REX management have been off the ball for a long time now but they are not alone. It will be sad as the continual drain of experienced pilots leave the likes of REX because the money and the lifestyle just ain't what it used to be.
Our industry has been and will be run by accountants for the foreseeable future. Now accountants only really care about next years results and then move on to the next company for better T&Cs (sounds familiar). So why would they try to implement long term strategies (like pilot retention) that would hurt the next years report and bonuses when the mess can be left for the next manager/accountant to clean up.

[Ref + 10]

So why would they try to implement long term strategies (like pilot retention) that would hurt the next years report and bonuses when the mess can be left for the next manager/accountant to clean up.

But will there be a mess left to clean up? The companies long and short term survival is seemingly at stake here so people are playing chicken with their own livelihoods at the managerial and mid level as well if these rumours are true.

[KRUSTY 34]

Defies belief doesn't it?

Mr Lim,

Are you even out there?

[MACH082]

heres something from michael moores dude where's my country pretty applicable to here, thought i would repost:

"paying workers more money makes you more money"

When you dont pay people enough to take care of lifes essentials, it ends up costing you and everybody else a lot of money. If workers have to take a second or third job, their productivity suffers on all three jobs. They aren't able to concentrate on one specific goal - making you lots of money! They're pre occupied thinking about how they have to get to that other job to make that other guy a lot of money. So your employees tired, he makes more mistakes, he has more accidents, he leaves early and his overall job performance is lower than if he was just concentrating on you. Why do you want him helping some other schmuck make money? if you paid him a decent wage, he'd only be thinking about you!


Pretty applicable to our industry boys and girls!

[mention1]

Just saw a video of latest MPL holder's final check flight... or was that a cadet???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk

But seriously folks, last min rest overnight I did had 11 sectors. The old body just can't take it any more. So off to head office today to resign. Sad really. New job has overtime, bidding and lots more days off for much more money, so why wouldn't cha?

Fenwicksgirl in post 38 had some good ideas. How about thinking outside the square Rex and ask our opinion.

Is there a pilot shortage? Hell yes there is. Just keep applying you'll get the job you want eventually.:)

[neville_nobody]

Perhaps as a suggestion Rex needs to pause for a minute and take stock of the situation and look towards those pilots who are not attractive to the airlines but have experience.

They are called older people (40-45+ who are discriminated by airlines), you know those who roar around australia every day and night in high speed turbo-prop aircraft often alone and IFR.

If you could put them in as DEC then that's probably a good idea. However; the fact of the matter is, the only people who are able to work for the money that REX offers are younger folk as they generally don't have dependants and are willing to sacrifice salary for career progression.

If Rex want to target the older market they have to start offering better money. No 45+ guy is going to quit a $60K a year Night Freight/RFDS type job to take $41K FO position. They have to start either offering individual contracts to FO's on a higher salary or put them in as Captains. Otherwise nothing will change.

[Under Dog]

Spot on NEV.
I for One could not support my family on 41k and I would be quite happy with a regional job.
If regionals like rex are not prepared to increase their salaries then they will only capture a small section of the pilot group.
I guess we will see a grave yard of aircraft comming to an airport near you.


Regards The Dog

[Icarus2001]

One very important question that isn't being asked is that with all the BS sprouting forth from Rex about pilotage shortages where is the AFAP or ANY OTHER professional pilot association? Where is their counter media release?

Hello Laurie anyone there?

There is a whole opportunity being lost here to put the case for the REAL reason for people not wanting to spend $80K plus to earn $60K pa.

Whenever the federal government make a statement on health issues the AMA are right there with a comment and soundbite for the media, where are OUR PAID representatives huh?

[chief wiggum]

Don't expect much support from the AFAP....

I did.

I was disappointed.

the ONLY branch of the AFAP that actually runs well is the department that collects money off pilots, and pays themselves.

[bushy]

How can low wages, poor conditions and a pilot shortage exist all at the same time?
The commercial system must be distorted, otherwise it would re-adjust to solve this.

[neville_nobody]

Aircraft will tell you that regional airlines cannot afford to pay any more as that will raise ticket prices and lower demand etc etc.

I think at the moment the regionals are still finding enough people to employ (so no real supply problem yet) at current wages it's just that they aren't able to keep anybody in the company. REX really need to start offering some of the Captains an incentive to stay. Whether that's in money or some cushy rostering arrangement they need to do something.

Skippers have upped their salaries in a slightly dodgey manner, but it still is an increase.

[aircraft]

bushy said:
How can low wages, poor conditions and a pilot shortage exist all at the same time?
Like several other posters to this thread, you are asking why it is that "supply and demand" hasn't seen to it that pay and conditions have become dramatically improved.

The supply and demand effects are at work in this instance, as they are in every instance involving free enterprise, but there is a certain limit that has come into play. It is worth bearing in mind that there are limits to everything in the universe.

The limiting factor, in this case, is the amount of money that Rex can afford to pay out in the form of salary and conditions.

If aviation was as lucrative an industry as oil and gas, for example, then this particular limit may still be some way off, and good 'ol supply and demand would have seen to it that salaries and conditions are way up on what they were a few years ago (e.g $200K for turboprop captains, $150K for FOs, free motor vehicle and all manner of duty and living concessions).

But aviation is just not that lucrative.

Some would say that supply and demand has had no effect whatsoever and there is no discernible difference between the T&Cs offered today and those of a few years ago.

And this would generally be true, for it reveals another little reality that posters to this thread will find rather unpalatable:

That Rex have always paid their staff about as well as they can afford to!

In fact, this statement will be generally true for not just every other aviation employer in Australia, but virtually every other business in the world.

[Wizofoz]

Aircraft,

You again bang on with your theme to justify low renumeration in Aviation.

There is only one problem with that, it's RUBBISH.

To remain in business, airlines MUST attract and retain pilots. (One of your solutions to this in another thread was "Well, just go broke then"- remind me not to put YOU in charge of any of my investments!!). This is a cost to them, like fuel and maintenance. Note that fuel, which is a much larger cost to airline than Pilot wages, has increased dramatically. You haven't suggested airline stop buying it!!

To offset these costs, companies must pass them on to their customers.

Ahh!! you say...But customers then just won't fly. This is where your age and inexperience shows.

Previous to deregulation in 1990, airfares in Australia where, in real terms, something like 150% higher on average than post deregulation. And guess what? People paid them. Travel is essential for most passengers and highley desired by most. The number who would simply not travel if airfares went up, say 20% (which is much more than would be required to produce REALLY attractive packages for pilots) would be small. It might mean some marginal routes become non-profitable, it might mean some small operators go out of business. But the DEMAND would still exist, so SUPPLY would be profitable if sold at a sustainable price.

Turbo-prop Captains in Europe earn around 60 000 Sterling, which is around $150 000 AUD, and fares on those airlines are still very cheap.

Bleat all you like, but in all your posts you have never answered one simple question- if regonals can't keep pilots without raising wages, how do they stay in business?

[aircraft]

Wizofoz said:
To remain in business, airlines MUST attract and retain pilots. (One of your solutions to this in another thread was "Well, just go broke then"
Yes, airlines must, but does this mean they will? I didn't say "just go broke then", I actually said that Rex, Skippers, etc are almost powerless when it comes to trying to prevent these circumstances from closing them down.

I also said, in that other thread, that changes to economic circumstances always force the closure of businesses. Every day in Australia there is a business that closes because, due to a small change to the economic circumstances, that business is no longer viable.

The thing about fuel price rises is that they affect all carriers uniformly, so no one particular carrier is disadvantaged. Air travel as a whole is certainly affected though, and demand for it does drop - it has to.

Previous to deregulation in 1990, airfares in Australia where, in real terms, something like 150% higher on average than post deregulation. And guess what? People paid them
Yes, but how much air travel was there in those days compared to today? Put the airfares up by 150% today and yes, people will still fly, the pilots could be paid what they were then, but demand for it will so contract that you will probably have the same number of flights as there were then. How many pilots would that put out of a job?

Don't try to compare European salaries with Australian. That is not an "apples to apples" comparison.

[Skystar320]

Sorry I have to disagree:

Coming from a Forensic Accounting Background adrshmoo your talking out of your a*se cause its flappin in the wind!

Goodwill:
A broader concept of goodwill recognizes the economic value of a business' internally developed nonpurchased goodwill such as name, developed markets, managerial talent, labour force, government relations, ability to finance operations easily, etc. Such nonpurchased goodwill has not been recognized in the balance sheet and expenditures which may result in internally developed goodwill have not been capitalized. The primary reason for not accounting for goodwill developed in this manner is the absence of generally accepted objective methods of measurement.

Goodwill which is internally generated by an entity is not permitted
by this Standard to be recognised as an asset by that entity. This is
principally because of the difficulty, or impossibility, of identifying
the events or transactions which contribute to the overall goodwill
of the entity. Even if these were identifiable, the extent to which
they generate future benefits and the value of such benefits are not
usually capable of being measured reliably. Internally generated
goodwill which is not recognised as an asset will either go
completely unrecognised or will be recognised as an expense.

Well first of all I'd like to say that I never worked for REX. Several of my mates did/do and they have all enjoyed their times their in a professional company with good people who have good will - accountants can't see this on a spread sheet so therefore it doesn't exist.

Our industry has been and will be run by accountants for the foreseeable future. Now accountants only really care about next years results and then move on to the next company for better T&Cs (sounds familiar). So why would they try to implement long term strategies (like pilot retention) that would hurt the next years report and bonuses when the mess can be left for the next manager/accountant to clean up.

:ok: Spot on the industry will be run by accountants and always will be. We make the figures work.

Now I totally disagree to your point of

"Now accountants only really care about next years results and then move on to the next company for better T&Cs (sounds familiar)"

Yes in some points we are, but in the long run were more about running the business profitably otherwise without us.............................. Say goodbye to airlines.


Accountants are the power in the engine, the pilots drive the plane, and everyone else makes it run smoother.

Now I could ramble on, but Fark off :=:=:= trying to take the piss out of accountants and go get a real job :yuk:

[Skystar320]

Skippers have upped their salaries in a slightly dodgey manner, but it still is an increase.

And if they are not careful they could be in for some serious trouble....

[neville_nobody]

Part of this argument is the price of tickets. Are we getting airfares to cheaply? I agree partly with what Aircraft says in that REX and the like cannot be the same as BHP. However maybe the presupposition is incorrect. Maybe airfares are to low.

Airlines have no problems in jacking up the price of airfares on the grounds of oil price. You surely cannot argue that it is better to close up shop instead of upping your salaries slightly.

One could also argue that like Telcos, Aviation may be better off in having a regulated system. That's another argument for another day.

In the case Qlink, I have no sympathy at all. If they had set up their system similar to American Eagle and American Airlines 10 years ago they would never have a crewing problem ever. They recruit Eastern/Sunstate people to a Qantas standard, then after 3 years or whatever you go to mainline, or stay as a Captain. Yet they decided to play silly buggers in trying to playoff everyone against each other and it may come to haunt them. If they had an intergrated system you wouldn't have to worry about paying people more because they would hang around knowing that mainline was on the horizon.

Maybe REX should get some arrangement with Virgin. By giving people a career path it would save everybody alot of hassle.

[Wizofoz]

How many pilots would that put out of a job?


Aircraft,

This sentence alone shows you are either a troll arguing for the sake of it, or just plain dumb!!

The whole salery increase/ fare increase we are talking about is being driven by the SHORTAGE of pilots. Airlines need to raise conditions to the point they keep enough pilots to operate their current schedules. If conditions led to their being more pilots than jobs, what do you suppose that would do? That's right! Drive pay and conditions down, as has been the case worldwide since 9/11!!

Anyway, talking to a brick wall gets old after a while, so I think I'll leave you to it!!

[KRUSTY 34]

The trouble is Nev, Virgin don't own REX!

Waaiite a minute......., there's an idea?

[The Original Jetpipe]

Virgin buy out Rex.....................That sounds like a good rumour?? Or is it.............

[Towering Q]

It is worth bearing in mind that there are limits to everything in the universe

Aircraft....economist and philosopher.:hmm:

Skippers have upped their salaries in a slightly dodgey manner, but it still is an increase.

And if they are not careful they could be in for some serious trouble....

What, and they aren't already?!:rolleyes:

[Jet_A_Knight]

When the price of fuel goes up - the company pays, and either absorbs the cost (if possible) or passes it on in the price of tickets.

If the price of parts goes up - the company pays, and either absorbs the cost (if possible) or passes it on in the price of tickets.

If the price of airport usage & airways goes up - the company pays, and either absorbs the cost (if possible) or passes it on in the price of tickets.

Etc etc.

NOW, the price of PILOTS is going up.

DEAL WITH IT - or stop operating.

Simple, really

[Keg]

Yes, I would have thought that a Pilot retention surcharge of $3 a ticket would probably do OK. On a full Saab that's $108 per sector isn't it? (Been a while since I knew what the capacity of a S340B was!). Over five sectors a day spilt between Captain and F/O that should do quite nicely for retention I would have thought.

Now aircraft, tell me why $3 per ticket pilot retention surcharge is going to slam the demand to the stage that REX goes broke! If they can do it for fuel they can do it for pilots. :rolleyes:

[Jet_A_Knight]

Keg, you would have to call it something else, or bury the charge in a general increase.

Wouldn't want those passengers who trust us so much to kick our car headlights in at the carpark, over $3 now would we.:eek:

[Mr. Hat]

My summary from another thread: Retain staff, attract staff. Swallow the pride, unpuff the chest: the pilot tree is nearly empty.

Liking your work Keg.

[Crankhandle]

:ugh:Having just a little while ago walked out of Rex's front door for good, I am glad to say I have found life as I never knew it before. Crews were great to work with but I wouldn't give a toss for the management and I think I can talk for a lot of the past and present crews, the training and checking top brass are totally out of control and this is reflected in the company's lack of ability in holding onto pilots.
Throwing money at the staff problem will fix things in the short term but that management mob take the cake, I don't recall any one having any respect or time for the likes of CH, NH, MN or JD, if Kim and his bunch can't see the total lack of talent these drop-kicks exhude then I don't see a lot of future for the company. And I really don't care.
What a laugh, give me a break, train a bunch of low timers for the right seat, soon there won't be any experienced left seaters left and these new trainees will want their upgrade to the left seat with 50 hours on type.
I'm so glad I won't have to fly the SLAB myself while training them for the same lousy pittance of a pay packet.
This company is a joke, share the sentiments of these Pprune pages with the shareholders and the ASX and get them out of the air, maybe they will be replaced with a genuine operator. Well we can only hope. :eek:

[KRUSTY 34]

Problem is Crankhandle.

"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them."

Something that aviation managers in this country have honed to a fine edge!

[bushy]

The flying schools have been telling us about the pilot shortage for the last 35 years.

[KRUSTY 34]

Absolutely bushy,

Ever heard of the little boy who cried "WOLF"

[jafa]

eight months to train a pilot..... what planet does this joker

[Contains Nuts]

I'm not a pilot. I'm an accountant.

I recently applied for a position with Rex in their accounts department and shortly after got an email offering me an interview. I was to travel from Brisbane to Melbourne and back, stay in a hotel overnight and attend the interview...all at my own expense. So for my outlay of about $700 I certainly wanted to know what exactly I was being interviewed for. So I wrote back thanking them for the opportunity and asked for a few questions to be answered:

1. What position is it that I will be assessed for in the interview?
2. Where would I be based for my employment with Regional Express?
3. What are the pay and conditions of the role I would be applying for?

4. Would Rex be interested in covering the costs of my CPA training in return for a minimum period of employment?

And so I waited for a reply...

But after 10 days there was no response. I wondered if I had slipped through the gaps in there system. I called the number listed on the email and got a mesage bank. I left a brief message with my contact number, but again there was no response.

I've now found employment that I'm happy with and no longer care for an interview with Rex, but I scratch my head and wonder what ever happened with them.

OK, so I'm no accountant, I am a pilot. With 2,800hrs and 1,000 multi with ATPL's. But the above is my recent experience with Rex.

Good luck finding your pilots fellas.

[The Kavorka]

Well said crankhandle......

CH lost me when he said that pilots will extend their duty for no extra cash because they are shareholders and will do it for the company...:ugh:

[bra83d]

The Plan

In the beginning was the Plan.
And then came the Assumptions.
And the Assumptions were without form.
And darkness was upon the face of the Workers.
And they spoke among themselves, saying, "It is a crock of ****, and it stinketh."
And the workers went unto their Supervisors and said, "It is a pail of dung, and none may abide the odour thereof."
And the Supervisors went unto their Managers, saying, "It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, such that none may abide by it."
And the Managers went unto their Directors, saying, "It is a vessel of fertiliser, and none may abide it's strength."
And the Directors spoke amongst themselves, saying one to another, "It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong."
And the Directors then went onto the Vice Presidents, saying unto them, "It promotes growth and is very powerful."
And the Vice Presidents went unto the President, saying unto him, "This new plan will actively promote the growth and vigour of the company; with powerful effects."
And the President looked upon the Plan, and saw that it was good.
And the Plan became Policy.

This is How **** Happens.

[drshmoo]

Skystar320

"Accountants are the power in the engine, the pilots drive the plane, and everyone else makes it run smoother."
Ummmm ok:ugh:


This whole shortage thing could have been lessened by management/accountants not being as short sighted as they have been.
eg. Sunstate pilots crewing Q400s out of Canberra. They save 7% by not going with Eastern but they park Q400s on bay 15/16 sometimes cause they are out of crew. They were one of the first to really feel the crewing pinch because management wanted to be nasty. Sydney to CBR is a lot easier than BNE to CBR for a move. But hey they saved 7% on about 15 peoples wages.:ugh:
The "power in the engine" and their ilk have had blinkers on for a long time.


"and go get a real job "

Thanks champ I do.

and sorry for the late reply...something about being busy with a real job

[outthere]

Hi All,
I am new to this forum but have been following the REX story for a week or so. I sent in an application of interest. I have 13.5 hours up with 2.5 solo in a gazelle.
I am in I.T. and run my own computer repair business. I know a lot of you will say don't even bother becoming a pilot because of money etc.
I was wondering if anyone new where and how rex trained their pilots. I received and auto reply from my appication that went like this :
Dear Sir / Madam,
Thank you for applying for a Cadet Pilot position with Regional Express.
We are currently reviewing all applications and will contact you should your application proceed to the next stage.
Should your application not proceed to the next stage, your resume will be kept on file for a period of three months in case any positions arise that we feel you may be suitable for.
Once again thank you for your interest in working with REX.
Kind regards,
Human Resources
Is this the same as everyone else got. I guess I am just throwing my hat in the ring to see what comes of it.
I really enjoy reading the forums and get a lot out of you guys talking. I hope thngs get better for all pilots.

[KRUSTY 34]

outthere,

gotta be in it to win it!

If you get an interview, my advice would be to go along. What do you have to lose?

PM me if you get the call. I would be more than happy to offer some tips.

[outthere]

Thanks Crusty,

It is good to have some support from other pilots.

At the moment I a just hanging around like all the others. There must be quite a few pilots that put there interest in. Makes me wonder what chance I have.

On the other hand I may just have what they are looking for, whatever that is, but also I could fix computers on the side to help sustainsome sort of life.

What is your piloting experience rusty.

Jeremy

[Lodown]

Outthere, you'll be just the candidate they are looking for...someone who can put in long hours and "sustain some sort of life" with another income on the side. The choice is up to you, but it's apparent that you don't regard Rex as a career in aviation, but a stepping stone on the way to getting one. I'm not blaming you; I would probably be considering the same in your shoes. I'm just making an observation.

And as a general comment; it's no wonder the aviation industry is staring down the tunnel of a possible pilot shortage. And as for a government fact-finding mission or whatever it's called. The answer is staring out from these web pages.

There are currently very few careers in aviation unless it's with the majors. Short-term jobs aplenty, but no careers.

[outthere]

Hi Lodown,

I think I see rex as a way to secure my childhood dream of becoming a pilot. I really enjoy flying.

The other option that my instructor gave me was to spend about $45,000 and he would take me into the commercial arena. Here is what he said :

Just thinking it through... for the flying component you should calculate it
out something like this:

Total hours required: 200 - you can credit your ultralight time against this
You will need to do the flight test (and therefore some of your training) in
an aircraft that can do over 120 kts and has a variable-pitch prop

We can build a night rating and probably an instrument rating into your 200
hours


Roughly speaking:

Grob: 60 hours dual (@200/hour), 40 hours solo (@150/hour)

Cessna C172XP or Cherokee: 30 hours dual (@230/hour), 30 hours solo
(@190/hour)

Cessna C206: 30 hours dual(@320/hour), 10 hours solo (@260/hour).

Thats a total of $42,800 incl GST... not a bad guess eh? You should speak to
an accountant about making it tax-deductible or GST free.

That is a VERY rough indication without taking your prior experience into
account. You could substitute a light twin for the C206 if you like, but I
would bet you as much as you like that your first job will be in a Cessna
206, 207 or 210.

Not many "new" commercial pilots have experience on a Cessna 206 and find
them a bit heavy and hard-to-handle initially. Training with Atlass (ie: me)
would give you a serious advantage there.

Hope that helps

I wouldn't mind just flying on a weekend basis commercially. I guess I am just letting the path unfold in front of me whatever way it might happen.

Jeremy

[Skystar320]

Skystar320
"Accountants are the power in the engine, the pilots drive the plane, and everyone else makes it run smoother."
Ummmm ok
This whole shortage thing could have been lessened by management/accountants not being as short sighted as they have been.
eg. Sunstate pilots crewing Q400s out of Canberra. They save 7% by not going with Eastern but they park Q400s on bay 15/16 sometimes cause they are out of crew. They were one of the first to really feel the crewing pinch because management wanted to be nasty. Sydney to CBR is a lot easier than BNE to CBR for a move. But hey they saved 7% on about 15 peoples wages.
The "power in the engine" and their ilk have had blinkers on for a long time.
"and go get a real job "
Thanks champ I do.
and sorry for the late reply...something about being busy with a real job
Ahhh drshmoo you have it all wrong yet again.....
Maybe the comment of 'and go get a real job' was a tad out of line and that i do apologise but its the same in every industry that we go into when a company fails everyone tries to blame the accountants for cutting corners when over 99% of the time is the flippin management who have made bad calls. :*:*:*
I dont know how you can bare to take cheap handed hand swipes at accountants it should be the management that you should be bending over :ugh::ugh::ugh:
Accountants only really identiy cost savings to the company and from Memory Sunstate / Eastern are two different companies i.e two managements and two lots of accountants. They cannot impliment these by themselves its up to the managment
Now enough of trying to sh*t :=:=:=:= the blame on accountants who work in the industry and put alot of time in (I know, as I Worked for a big company (no guess to whom ) and on several occasions we were putting in over 10 - 14hrs a day only to repeat is 5days a week.
Now I'd love to fly and its a shame MANAGEMENT are bloating their balls to themselves and not paying pilots enough, but I enjoy what I do for a living and enjoy when the bast*rds are behind bars :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:
I can identity that accountants are the power in the engines, pilots are the capable ones of flying us around where as management couldnt **** up a tree if they tried and all they do is fluff the pillows to make it look pretty in this case


Have a great day

[ABX]

outthere,

A local school here told me the exact same thing:

CPL/MECIR for $42 000

That is the route I would like to go down myself.:ok:


SS320,

I can identity that accountants are the power in the engines...

:mad:

I can identify that you are out of your tree mate, in the history of the universe there has never been an accountant who is "the power in the engines". What a joke that statement is. The workers at the coal face are always 'the power in the engines'.

If the accountants go on strike for a day - nobody notices.

If the workers go out - the whole show grinds to a halt.

Where would the accountants be without the workers? You wouldn't even have a job without the workers.:ugh:

You must have the munchies by now eh?:E

[Skystar320]

Without accountants you wouldn’t get paid………………………………………………………………………………………………



[Lets get back to topic, as you know I am right in a business point of view]

[Wizofoz]

I note that Skystar A320 has implemented his own cost savings by buying a computer that doesn't do commas...

[Skystar320]

I note that Skystar A320 has implemented his own cost savings by buying a computer that doesn't do commas...

And I see you have nothing else better than to pick out mistakes from people who actually contribute.

[flyby11]

I have been reading this post for a week or so now and realise why i got out of aviation.

I now run a successful business in the tourism industry. The reason that companies can not keep employees is that they are all top heavy in terms of management and wages. They need to do what I have done and that is get rid of all the people that don't need to be there and combine there jobs with others. What they need to do then is use the money saved from that to pass on to employees.

I will give you an example of how much my tour driver / guides earn.

F/T
$75,000 per year + super
Fuel card
1 return airfare to anywhere in the world business class for them and a partner.
4 return airfares anywhere in aus per year and 6 weeks leave.

P/T

$300 per day + super
Fuel Card
50% off flights

This has all been on the return of taking 2 high management jobs away and passing the wages on to the drivers.

As a result we have a happier work force and have not lost a person in over 12 months and no sick days. Always are more active with and courteous with customers.

I think it is time for the aviation industry to do the same I can think of many ways that they can intergrate the high management and cut down on there wages which you don't have to then pass the cost onto customers.

[Skystar320]

flyby11 - and you wonder why your moral is so high :ok::ok: good one you mate there are some good managers out there

Where do I sign up? oh and my return intl destination = BCN :O

[Paper Planes]

Well said flyby11


I think it is time for the aviation industry to do the same I can think of many ways that they can intergrate the high management and cut down on there wages which you don't have to then pass the cost onto customers.


The money is already in the pockets of management & company owners. It is about time they pay pilots what they are worth instead of spending all the profits on their own selfish needs. :=

[lil_blueberry]

LMFAO nice one HOG DRIVER!!!! Now we just need that on youtube and were done! hahahahahahaha kick arse

:)
:D
:ok:

[dh.dude]

Anyone who even tries to suggest that an airline like Rex can't improve salaries should have a look at their latest annual report. I just had a quick look, and they could have increased everyone's wages (including all levels of management) by 10% and still returned a profit of over $27m before tax (down from $33m) to shareholders.

People suggesting that they can't afford any payrise should look at the figures and then try and come to that conclusion.

[PlankBlender]

Dude, a profit figure as such doesn't really tell anyone much unless it's put into relation with things like invested capital and other financial company data. Interesting question actually that hasn't been answered here; can anyone shed light on whether or not Rex are actually performing financially and could really afford a significant salary increase?

Maybe you can also work out what such a proposed salary increase would do to EBIT (earnings before interest and tax) and a few other of the major performance indicators, as those would have a big impact on the value of the company and the attractiveness to investors and banks, which in turn is a major determining factor for any company's ability to raise capital and keep the the show on the road, or in the air in this case..

If the demonstrable performance of the company is still industry average or above after such a salary increase, you have a point, if not, then the management decision to keep salaries where they are is probably not that wrong given management has to look after all stakeholders of which employees are one group, but not the only one..

Standing by to be flamed :}

[KRUSTY 34]

PlankBlender,

I'll light the first torch!

Do you actually know what is going on here? Jim Davis has stated publically that the major airlines in this country will require 1800 new pilots over the next 2 years! My estimates were about 60% of that number, and based on that REX were in deep trouble. If the numbers being stated by captain Davis are correct then REX is f#cked!

All your accounting gobbledygook mean absolutely squat if there are no pilots left to fly the aircraft.

I've said it before, leave the profits were they are and add $6.25 to the cost of every ticket. If it's loss of market share you're worried about, then leave the 5 routes that we compete on alone, and make it $7.00 per ticket for the rest!

Rex are already cancelling flights in record numbers, and several less profitable routes, (but profitable all the same) are under threat. Ask the travelling public from those communities what they would prefer?

[Launch_code_Harry]

Dude, a profit figure as such doesn't really tell anyone much unless it's put into relation with things like invested capital and other financial company dataDude, I think their doing OK with:
SUPERIOR RETURN
Return on equity of 23.1%
Return on total assets of 15%
Share price increase by 176% in the FYfrom the latest Investor Briefing (http://%3Ci%3EInvestor%20Briefing%3C/i%3E), page 3.

[PlankBlender]

Krusty I hear ya, but our respective points are mostly unrelated. If there is indeed a pilot shortage (and at the moment despite some early signs the jury seems to be still out), lack of supply of pilots will mean prices (read pilot wages and T&Cs) must go up. But that will have an effect on all companies, so with the figures I allude to above, you will still be able to make a comparison and answer the question whether or not a company could pay higher wages and still perform financially, which is whay I was arguing..:8

If indeed then pilot prices go up, what follows is an increase in supply (with the obvious lag due to necessary training etc.), and as conditions improve supply will move to meet demand in the medium term. In that sense aviation is like any other business, at least in the long term.

I would bet that quite a few pilots who got out of the game to make a better living money-wise would re-enter aviation once pay improves, thus dampening any shortage, and I do not think developments will be too dramatic. Of course as an aspiring pilot (coming into aviation out of passion, from a line of business that pays much much more) I am all for better pay and conditions :D, but I am not holding my breath :oh: for ace pay and T&Cs..

As per your ticket increase suggestion, I agree this might work :ok: given there is probably limited competition on a lot of the Rex routes. And with any company that isn't too small, if one really wants, one can find the dough for a wage increase, probably more cleverly in combination with a few well-placed T&C carrots :} to remove incentives to leave..

I have the funny feeling from what others have said here, that a lot of Rex's problems are indeed home-made and not necessarily only a reflection of an industry wide shortage (other airlines don't seem to have that many cancellations, and charter and freight are still running, right?), and an injection of focus on their issues with rosters, staffing levels and retention might just fix some things.. you never know, we might get one of the Rex management/admin insiders who seem to read these threads spill a few beans anonymously about what they're doing to improve things, that would be very enlightening, don't you think? Certainly would breathe some life and maybe even a factoid or two into this discussion :E

[KRUSTY 34]

Plank...,

I'm all for management initiatives to better the lot of their employees, hense giving encouragement to stay.

Do you know what has been done in this area.....

ZIP!

The pilot crisis, because that is what it really is, hasn't even started. Remember what the REX chief of staff said, "1800 pilots required over the next 2 years".

You sound like a fairly intelligent person, therfore I asume you can count!

And the numbers just don't add up.

[JHJORGEN]

Hi Does anyone know how much REX pays?

[A Yak From Yemen]

Evan ef Rex payed saim as Deeeejay aand Cunnas u turboplop pielots wood steel go jet, all that is happening is as eye hav 4seen:}:\:eek::}:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::E:E:E:E

[nike]

A classic example of management thinking today.

These accountant managers never approach the problem from an operational point of view.

Its just numbers, they're not pax to be catered for, they're just numbers, they're not aircraft that can breakdown, just numbers, staff are not loyal, committed people, we're just numbers.

Numbers to appear in the bonus column.

If they're not careful those numbers won't be too flash.

[neville_nobody]

Hi Does anyone know how much REX pays?

You start in the very low 40's and it goes from there. You may earn more with allowances etc You would probably need 2 years in the industry to get the minimums roughly.

Now for the Rex cadets they are going to pay $80K for that job. Also they won't be able to be promoted so they will probably be on less than $50K for a long time. They also won't have ATPL subjects either I imagine.

If they wanted money they'd be better off doing the GA thing, as you would get more money working as a grade 1 instructor or flying twin charter

[WynSock]

YAK, Evan ef Rex payed saim as Deeeejay aand Cunnas u turboplop pielots wood steel go jet, all that is happening is as eye hav 4seenGreat job of disguising your voice with that weird scottish/mexican/estonian accent, never thought of that!

The interesting thing is...you are wrong.

There is one turboprop operator who has had very stable numbers for donkeys years. The only thing that has changed is some middle manager got in and tried to get blood out of a stone by stuffing up the lifestyle. This co-incidentally happened with the current jet recruitment drive.

For pilots with families, there is more to the job than making lots of noise and getting paid 6 figures.

Reap etc.

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

See what happens with Easterns EBA. Lifestyle to go down the gurgler:yuk: Biggest mistake is 6 days & splitting 2 of 8. What lifestyle is that when others are gettin 11 or 12 off.
Wynsock yer right. To the blokes they NEED to hang on to (most senior & experienced) are doing it for lifestyle. Once it goes why stick around.
Rumor is 15-20 QL captains for career progression interviews in Nov.:ok:
Lifestyle,lifestyle.
.
.
.
.
Career progression ie Virgin/Dragon/Cathay/ and any airlines OUTSIDE QF group coz we're lepers to mainline management. Hardly anyone bothered applying 2 mainline this time round coz they know from years of experience theyre not likely to get thru. Gotta keep them double training costs down so why not use skills test as a tool to minimize migration.:yuk:
Reap what u sow Cockaroach. Good luck on yer northern Oz junket.:=



See Youse!

[outthere]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone else got ask to supply their HSC results over the last couple of days. I got asked last night for them and am wondering if they are starting to move things along.

outthere

[cx587]

outthere,

Affirm to that.

[KRUSTY 34]

OK Boys & Girls,

It's probably no secret that I trust airline management as far as I could throw any of 'em.

Having said that, it is important that people make up their own minds. It is also vitally important that anyone contemplating a cadetship with REX, arm themselves with all the facts.

REX management have typically been short on detail. If I were about to embark on such a program, I would be asking these questions.

How much will it cost me?
How much will REX contribute to my training?
Will it be a loan? If so how do I pay it back?
How much will this cost me out of each fortnights pay?
Exactly how long will it take from commencement of training to eventual check to line?
At what stage will I be considered a REX employee?
Will I be eligible for command?
If I fail to reach proficiency standards along the way, will I still be liable to repay the debt if I were to fail the program?
If after my check to line, I subsequently fail 2 checks in a row, and my services are terminated (yes it can and has happend), will I have to pay out the debt?I'm sure that there would be more questions worth asking, but the essential thing is that you are completely satified the the process before commiting yourselves.

Don't place yourself in a position where you are put at a disadvantage.

[Jeps]

outthere,

Yeah got ask to supply my results to....if there going solely on results i'm pretty sure i better start to look elsewhere:ugh:

Jeps

[training wheels]

If after my check to line, I subsequently fail 2 checks in a row, and my services are terminated (yes it can and has happend), will I have to pay out the debt?

What exactly does a check to line involve? Is it checking to see whether you remember how to do the company sops? Or is it like an IFR renewal test?

[outthere]

Hi Jeps,

I hear what you are saying. If they go off my HSC results I don't stand a chance. Probably doesn't matter that I just got almost all distinctions in a Cert IV course I done.

outthere

[Paper Planes]

It is very interesting REX's cadetship selection criteria depends on a HSC. All you kids just out of high school have to ask the question why REX isn't targeting exisiting pilots in GA?? The obvious reason is they want to use you for cheap labour. 80k is a lot of money, think carefully before accepting the devils offer.

There are plenty of us in GA still that would be ideal for their cadet program but they don't target us because they know we can't be fooled into their :mad: poor conditions. :=

[disco_air]

What exactly does a check to line involve? Is it checking to see whether you remember how to do the company sops? Or is it like an IFR renewal test?

Both. Everything. It is a check for you to go ON the LINE with everyone else.

You illustrated a point however. Many of these cadet applicants dont know what one is, let alone ask about & know what happens to them if they fail one.

[apache]

Another few points to ask will be :
-once employed, am I employed under the current award as a full time pilot? and entitled to the SAME profit share and share entitlements?
-The price quoted for the course... is that EVERYTHING? ie do I have to put my hand in my pocket for IREX PPL,CPL and ATPL,exams etc required to be conducted by an external provider?
-IF I do not meet standard during the INITIAL course, ie fail a PPL/CPL flight test, and require some extra flying to get me to standard.... who pays for that? as under the current AWARD, every pilot gets two goes at every check including extra training at no cost to the EMPLOYEE.
-IF the course is delayed due wx or a/c unserviceabilities, does this affext my employment commencement with rex, and possibily seniority and ability to earn a wage.
-you are asking me to commit to six years return of service, which I think is fair/unfair(delete as applicable). What guarantees do you make me regarding protection of my service? ie. IF the company was to not honour the agreement FULLY, including non payment of wages/entitlements, or LATE payment of entitlements. IF the company does not continue to operate for the agreed period of time, am I still prohibited from other employment ?
-Do I have the same rights as other employees regarding base transfers/bidding etc?
- when does the 6 year bond start ? after completion of cpl and CIR? or on the first day of initial cadet training?
- what protection is afforded me in case of fuel price increases? aviation companies are VERY quick to pass on ANY fuel price increase to anyone they can. so when I suign up for the cost of training, what happens if the cost of avgas DOUBLES? do I have to pay more, or is this a fixed cost?


just a few

[KRUSTY 34]

A lot for them to think about apache!

REX management are probably hoping for a high gullibility factor.

This thing has more legs than an octopus.

[Lacma]

Hmmm seven or eight hundred applicants for the cadet course, I think they're gonna struggle finding guys that wanna do it ehh??

[The Kavorka]

Anyone can make up a number!!!

Care to elaborate??

[Jeps]

I highly doubt that number is anywhere near the truth as Qantas didn't even receive that many for all the various training schemes it has going at present.

Jeps

[KRUSTY 34]

Lacma,

I rest my case RE: the gullibility factor. If those numbers are true (and I doubt it), then I hope to chr!st I never have to sit beside individuals that are so easily led.

Or are you just another mangement stooge?

[Lacma]

Krusty please, don't shoot the messenger, I simply called the recruitment number off the website and asked a few questions, when I inquired as to how many applications they had received the friendly recruitment officer told me "Oh between seven and eight hundred". Whether it's true or not I'd have no clue, all I've done is tell you what I was told. Trust me I found it amazing also!

[PlankBlender]

A high number of interested kids dreaming about a career in aviation is one thing, someone actually committing after seeing and (hopefully from what one can read here) critically evaluating a contract, is quite another thing..

I suspect numbers of applicant will decimate once sorting out finance, signing a contract and making a commitment for a number of years start coming into play :hmm:

Sadly the truth will probably never be known, more likely than not Rex will fill available places from the ranks of the well-heeled, indifferent, or ignorant :suspect: ..and of course they will keep any numbers and details about the quality of trainees close to their corporate chest unless they want to score public points, and let's be honest, who could blame them :}

Anyway, everybody please please keep up your excellent contributions :D, this thread is becoming a superb resource for anyone wanting to clue themselves up before getting into any contract in the industry :ok:, and, reading it, I had to think more than once that, like in other industries, freelancing must be at least part of the answer :confused:

[Jet_A_Knight]

Wait til they find out they'll be doing their flying training in Cooma or Wagga.

How much rent do you have to pay to live away for....8 months:eek:

Winter mornings sitting aound for the fog to lift will be fun.:hmm:

[2p!ssed2drive]

Sounds like Rex will be taking the pick of whoever has the highest HSC results?

Fair warning school leavers: if you've got really good grades - either apply to the Qantas cadetship... or become a doctor (or something).

If they want 6-years service out of you, at 40k a year.... I truly wonder how you're going to feed yourselves. After 3 years (max), you'll be wondering what you're doing with your time...

As was previously stated, think it through before accepting the devils offer :ok:

[blow.n.gasket]

outthere,

Yeah got ask to supply my results to....if there going solely on results i'm pretty sure i better start to look elsewhere:ugh:

Jeps

With poor school results instead of becoming a pilot you could do what Geoff did and become a CEO of a major Airline .
PS
FOG

[togs737]

Look-ey here, school results are being discussed again. :}

I personally think that this is an interesting topic! Here is my 2c worth.

If you have done poorly at school, it does not mean you're "dumb" - rather have not taken it seriously, or do not care.

If you want to become a pilot, don't let school results get you down. If becoming a pilot is your dream, then you're the right man or woman for the job and no school marks or comments from people can stop that!

So work at it, and if you need those HSC requirements for Qantas or whichever airline requires HSC these days, it can be done! I'm sure one can rip the HSC next time around, learning from their previous mistake(s). :ok:

[Paper Planes]

togs737

Qantas requirement for a HSC has nothing to do with flying the plane. They use it to discriminate against older applicants and to reduce the amount of young people applying. I recently looked into completing a HSC. As you say it can be done but apparently it takes 1 year to complete as a mature age student. Your profile says you are 18 years old. Easy to do at your age but ask any pilot who is in their late 20s or 30s having to support themselves and maybe a family. It is a challenge unless you are loaded with money to take time off which I doubt on GA wages.

I think Qantas should exempt pilots who are over 25 years of age from the HSC requirement if they can prove they have significant flying experience or a university degree.

I still can't understand how Qantas can view a university degree as less than a HSC? Can anyone explain this one?

[training wheels]

I still can't understand how Qantas can view a university degree as less than a HSC? Can anyone explain this one?

huh?? It's either the HSC or a Uni degree. This is from their min requirements section of their employment website.

Passes* in English and Mathematics# at a level equivalent to or higher than the NSW Higher School Certificate Examination ^
or
Fully completed Bachelor’s Degree of any discipline

[Paper Planes]

I stand corrected training wheels. Qantas has lowered the criteria. Really no excuses now for any pilot wanting to apply for Qantas.

Reading the Qantas program for cadets and direct entry pilots you would have to be crazy to accept a gig with REX

[togs737]

Without a HSC how did you get in to uni?

Mature aged or through TAFE I'd think...:ugh:

[Lowspirited]

in the article it said:

"The Rex scheme comes as the federal Government is under increasing pressure to help address the high cost of pilot training by including it in the Higher Education Contribution Scheme."

anyone have info on how the HECS part is progressing? I'd be very happy if they move it to HECS :}

[KRUSTY 34]

Spin, Spin, Spin..........!

Be very careful.

[Paper Planes]

anyone have info on how the HECS part is progressing? I'd be very happy if they move it to HECS


In my opinion flight training on HECS would have to be available for everyone in the industry not just Qantas & REX pilot training as it would ruin GA if that happened. All hell would break out if GA missed out. :{

If HECS was available you would get every man and his dog signing up for flight training even if they have no desire to fly for a living. Even though it isn't ethical human nature means some will abuse the system to maybe just get a PPL and then drop out. :E:E

The financial cost to the government would be too high and it still would not have addressed the reasons why young people don't see a future in aviation these days with the poor T & C compared to many other industries. :=

[404 Titan]

Not many people realise this but if you use HECS to get a degree and then go overseas to work, you won't have to pay it off. I will have to check but I am pretty sure that after seven years the debt is written off all together. Something to think about.:E

[Lowspirited]

i'm quite sure ur HECS debt is there for life until u either pay it off, or reach retirement age, and the going overseas part applies to any occupations so no reason to discriminate pilots...

HECS would automatically mean its a higher education course, so it'll be independant of airlines i'd imagine, all they really have to do is jack up the ENTER score, or the equivalents in other states, and put in some screening procedure....just think about it, how much glamour might be put back into the industry if it required 99.50 ENTER :O

realistically i think somewhere around 94-95 ENTER would be a good range, people above this score most likely would end up doing things like engineering/commerce/law/med, so it'll leave those who are really interested, the could also impose higher medical minimums.....i mean the general teenager in aus is quite unfit as far as i've seen :eek:

i'm currently studying aviation at RMIT, the course is about airline and airport management, i'd love to do the flying stream instead but i can't afford the 50-60k, so if they put the course on HECS.....i'll be the first to bribe my course coordinator :E but jokes aside, i never understood why the flying stream is the only university bachelor degree in australia that cannot be put on HECS, its pure discrimination :sad:

[Wizofoz]

The problem as I see it is that to get HECS, you have to be accepted into a tertiary education institution. Whilst I know the pre-requisites to get a BA in basket weaving or whetever might not be high (but then, nor are the costs compared to flying training) at least it takes SOME minimum standard to be accepted, whilst anyone can waltz into a flying school.

[SIUYA]

I'm confused. I thought that the Higher Education Loan Programme (HELP) replaced the Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS) on 1 January 2005? :confused:

It seems to me that if the government is looking at providing some support to overcome the present pilot shortage, then flying training could possibly come under HELP. The ATO publishes a guide on repaying a HELP debt, and it includes information that FEE-HELP provides students with a loan to cover up to the full amount of their tuition fees to a limit of $80,000, and $100,000 for dentistry, medicine or veterinary science courses. These limits are indexed each year. Seems to me that the cost of becoming fully qualified as a professional pilot would be in the $80K to $100K range, so why not use the scheme for this purpose?

As far as I understand it, HELP can attract a 10% bonus for voluntary repayments, so under those circumstances, the full HELP debt may not be repayable. Also, it seems you can use salary packaging for voluntary repayments of HELP debt.

As far as going overseas to avoid repayment of the debt, well I'm not so sure about that. HELP debt is indexed if it remains unpaid! So even if the offshore (foreign) income is exempt, the HELP debt doesn't just disappear. The HELP account is maintained and is indexed every year until the debt is paid off. Index rate as at 1 June 2007 was 3.4%, so beware!

The only situations that I can see where HELP debt gets 'written off' is: a) if you've repaid it in full, OR b) you die!

So, if it's a) then you're being treated no differently than say, a dentistry, medicine or veterinary science student with respect to your obligation to repay the fee assistance that you've been provided with by the governement under HELP (or HECS??), and if it's b) then it's really not going to be a problem for you, is it? :hmm:

[Pinky the pilot]

Returning to the original subject! The column below is reproduced with the author's kind permission. And I can assure fellow Ppruners that she occasionally reads these pages!:ok:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/Pinkythepilot/goode.jpg[/IMG]

[Lowspirited]

The actual aviation flying stream at RMIT and Swinburne here in Melbourne both contain 1.5 years of flying up to CPL/ATPL(subjects) and 1.5 years of the airline/airport management course. While the requirement isn't anything flashy, around 80, its still not a grade the average kid walks out with. I'm quite sure getting 80 places you at 80 percentile of the year's high school graduates. As for course prices, full fee courses are in the range of 10-30k/year, so a simple 3 year course could already cost 60k, not that much less than the flying.

The actual ENTER required works off basically a supply and demand type situation, so the ENTER will keep going up after a course is established to balance the positions available and the amount of people wanting to join. HECS/HELP, personally i didn't even read what the differences were, i only know under the new system u can only be on government support for a maximum of 7 years full time study, as i'm aware the 2 are basically the same except the maximum. I'm sure if the course is put under HECS/HELPS there will be a screening process, after all tertiary education under HECS/HELP is a priviliage to those who study hard and/or are very smart.

I've only completed PPL myself due to cost, but during my training i've already met some enthusiasts that for some reason weren't actually able to fly. I'm sure a good screening process coupled with decent entry requirements would make the program work really well. I'll email my course coordinator from RMIT when i find all the info about this proposed change and see if he knows when or the likelyhood of it passing through.

For all those in a similar situation as me, PRAY HARD, even if you're not religous :E

p.s sorry for the derail again, i didn't want to start a new topic since it was mentioned here >_<

[KRUSTY 34]

Pinky,

Angela Goode's article is a start, but like most journalistic pieces falls short on some facts.

If you do indeed read these pages Ms Goode, consider this.

Jim Davis stated that 1800 pilots will be required Australia wide, not just by REX.

Putting aside the inability of the company to contact all the passengers concerned, the CSO at the counter was correct that the reason for these delays, are lack of pilots.

What Ellora Sattar didn't tell you was that the 50 pilots under training will probably not even make up for the expected attrition!

What Ellora Sattar didn't tell you was that after these new pilots are trained, there will be very few suitable candidates left in the wider community to follow them!

What Jim Davis hasn't told you is the real reason young Australians have abandoned the profession. Make no mistake, it's always been expensive!

If you do read these forums Ms Goode, then you need to dig a little deeper than to simply repeat company statements. This crisis is real and it will get much much worse.

Your unfortunate experience and those of your fellow passengers at Mt Gambier will continue to repeat acrosss the REX network. I agree with you that REX owes it's rural passengers more respect. They also owe the travelling public the truth as to why the industry is now facing this crisis.

[Jet_A_Knight]

I counted 6 SF340's parked on the ground idle at Domestic 4 & 6 in Sydney on Saturday arvo.

Is that normal?

[DUXNUTZ]

Had my application in there for 3 months and heard nothing!

[KRUSTY 34]

3 Months eh DUXNUTZ!

Things really have changed. Seriously though, if you have at least 500 multi and a couple of thousand total, and I'm assuming you don't have 2 heads, then go straight to the majors.

If you don't meet the above criteria, be patient, they can only train so many at a time.

That is untill all the check and trainers have left!

[SIUYA]

Pinky............

A look at the reference in post #2 suggests that HECS was referred to as part of the original subject which was:

Media Release
9 October 2007
REX WARNS OF LOOMING CATASTROPHIC SHORTAGE OF PILOTS IN AUSTRALIA

The 'respect' that Angela suggests that Rex pay its customers (and shouldn't it be ALL of them, including internal customers = crews) includes, at the very least, ensuring that the business is properly staffed so that flights aren't cancelled due to crew shortages. It also includes a decent reward system (= T&Cs).

Training pilots to attempt to ensure that supply meets demand is part of the current dilemma. Hence the suggestions of whether that training could/would come under HECS.

Whether such a scheme is workable OR is an effective long-term solution is another matter. Pay and conditions also come into the argument, as alluded to by Keg at post #4, who argued against the proposition suggested by Rex that the $80K cost of training was the main reason there aren't enough commercial pilots. Keg hit the nail on the head with:

No it's not. It's the crap rates of pay that you and your ilk offer people who need to pay off that $80K that is the reason

And he's spot on!

Angela's article states that Rex with its monoploy owes its rural passengers a great deal more respect than they are currently getting. Agree. Rex also owes it's crews a great deal more respect than they seem to be getting, and that respect includes reasonable terms and conditions to help pay-off the high entry-costs that nearly every professional pilot incurs in getting into the industry.

[bushy]

It's worth reading Paul Phelan's article in the Oct/Nov issue of Aviation Business magazine. As usual Paul gives us the facts. And the $80,000 figure is not all of it nor is there any certainty of an airline job at the end of the five years. It's mainly qantas schemes but they seem to have got the govt to pay money towards it, and are planning to have GA and/or the regionals provide the flying experience. All at no cost to qantas, and with no commitment from qantas to provide jobs at the end of it. Other uni's are trying to get similar achemes going.
An important point is that the HELP fees are only available to those who have passed the interview. This will prevent another flood of trainees who will undermine T&C's in regionals like they did in GA.

[Pinky the pilot]

Suiya; Fair call.:O Just thought that the thread was drifting somewhat!

[SIUYA]

Pinky...........

No problems :)

[The Original Jetpipe]

Just wondering if anyone has been contacted (Apart from the autoreply) after they sent a copy of there Hsc results in?
Has anyone got any news/press release/company statement/rumour regarding this cadetship? it seems to have stopped in its tracks!!! Maybe they have found some pilots from somewhere???

TOJP.

[KRUSTY 34]

Jetpipe,

Welcome to REX management lesson No1.

Corporate communication to workforce. (And potential workforce).


ZIP!!!!!

Better get used to it!

[cx587]

Apparently some of the candidates who have AUSTRALIAN flying experience will get called for an interview.

I got a call from REX today and the HR was about to invite me for an interview. Never thought that during the call she noticed my PPL is a Canadian PPL and I was told to wait for further notice.

Good luck to those who will be having interviews soon.

[The Original Jetpipe]

cx587 - Thats interesting!!! I guess they did not read your application to well! Good luck, hope you at least get an interview! What hours/license/qualifications you got?
KRUSTY 34 - :ugh:
I wonder if anyone else has been contact for an interview.
Regards
TOJP.

[cx587]

TOJP,
Canadian PPL 100.5 fixed wings
Currently studying in UNSW Aviation Mgmt

They told me that the Chief Pilot pulled my resume out for an interview. I wonder if the Chief Pilot already knows that it is a Canadian licence or it is just the HR being difficult insisting it must be Australian licence.

Cx587

[KRUSTY 34]

Depends on what planet the Chief Pilot is on!!!

When you find out, let me know?

[cx587]

KRUSTY 34,

Will do

[The Original Jetpipe]

Hi
Heard a rumor regarding the rex cadetship,
They have selected a flight school in SA. The course is 1 year and during that time the cadets would NOT get any kind of training wage? (How are you meant to live??) Would the 80k cover all living costs as well?
Has anybody been called for interview? the plan was to start the cadets in December.
Anyone care to comment?
TOJP.

[Paper Planes]

December is only 4 weeks away. I doubt they will be up and running during the silly season. If the cadets don't live near the flight school they will need to come up with another 20k + in living expenses for the year.

Not everyone will be living at home with mommy & daddy so I can only imagine some of the cadets that get accepted into this program will have to knock REX back unless their parents have an endless money tree.

At least 100k minimum commitment is a realistic figure. NO ATPL subjects included in the price. Is it worth spending all that money with an airline that may not exist in a few years time?

[Launch_code_Harry]

KRUSTY 34 - :ugh: WTF is the meaning of this?
You would be well advised to listen to KRUSTY34, because your next post indicates a pretty poor grasp of how this industry actually works for someone considering signing a loan for $80,000. He may actually be on your side!

The course is 1 year and during that time the cadets would NOT get any kind of training wage? (How are you meant to live??) Would the 80k cover all living costs as well?Has the reality of this industry dawned on you yet?

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks Harry,

I think REX management are hoping against hope that there are enough gullible people out there to actually make this thing work.

From what I have seen so far it is not a plan. It is a flawed attempt to solve a problem at the expense of some young and probably not too industry savy people!

In it's current form, it is no more than a scam. It will fail because those that sign up to it will not have done their homework. Those that do their homework, will not sign up to it!

The reality is that the industry may need to go down this path, but the rewards at the end will have to be sustantially greater than what they are at present.

Ironically, if the industry had not spent years driving down pay and conditions, all of this may not have been necessary!

[disco_air]

They have selected a flight school in SA

Funny, if its The flying school in Adelaide im thinking of, they have enough problems getting instructors to stay to meet current overseas airline cadetship contracts!

...disco

[Keg]

If they're doing an el cheapo course through FT Adelaide then $80K may get them close to the mark.

The QF cadets were eligible to get a living away from home allowance from the government whilst they did their training. I think that extended to rental assistance also. I think it may have been a couple of hundred per week. It ain't much but it helps.

It's still a seriously crappy deal though!

[Paper Planes]

It's still a seriously crappy deal though!


I agree. If you are spending that kind of money on a cadet program it would be better to spend it with Qantas. There is no future with REX. No plan by management for long term survival.

[Hugh Jarse]

Keg,
When you were there back in the halcyon days of the AAC I think your course was worth close to $100k with residential included.

I dunno whether you blokes received any allowances whilst in residence, however I remember some phenomenal figures being touted by the boys of OAS, etc. From memory the Indonesian boys were getting between $20 to $100 per week from their airline, which was the lowest sum (from memory).

[Keg]

G'day Hugh, $304 per month! It didn't go far when we had that 'down time' in June and had the four weeks off whilst you guys slaved away getting the Merpati guys through their courses. I recall being told every day 'no flying tomorrow' but no one could ever tell me 'no flying for the next two weeks' so that I could hop a jet and go home for a bit! :ok: I knew the bouncers at the Circuit by name at the end of that four weeks and blew about four months worth of allowances I reckon! :}

Take out Citation, Cap10, doing the CPL and multi IFR the way we did it (great training but the expensive way really), accommodation and messing, and possibly ATPL subjects then I reckon that $80K would be the 'bare bones' price. Of course, the deal with Rex may not include any additional hours that may be needed or any additional theory assessments also.

[strim]

Nope, not in SA.


REX AND MANGALORE AIRPORT ANNOUNCE CREATION OF
PILOT ACADEMY
Regional Express (Rex) and Mangalore Airport Pty Limited (MAPL) announced today that they have
signed an MOU for a Joint Venture to create a new Professional Pilot Academy to be named the
Civil Aviation Training Academy (CATA). This Academy will be situated at Mangalore Airport,
Victoria, one and a half hours from Melbourne CBD, and is expected to receive its first batch of 20
students on 10 December 2007.
Giving details of the training, Jim Davis, Rex Chief of Staff, said “Under our intensive live-in training
program, we expect the students to graduate with a Commercial Pilot Licence, a Multi Engine Rating
and a Command Instrument Rating within 32 weeks. CATA has purchased an initial batch of 5 new
Piper Warrior III aircraft with state of the art “glass” cockpits for the first training course, as well as a
new twin-engine Piper Seminole for multi-engine and Instrument training. The Academy intends to
accept up to 80 pilots in the first year but has plans to grow the intake to 350 a year by the third or
fourth year of operations. We intend to be the premier institute for training professional pilots in
Australia.”
“The first few intakes of students will be reserved for the cadets recruited under the Rex Pilot Cadet
scheme announced earlier, after which the Academy will accept private students as well as those
sent from other airlines both locally and internationally. The total cost of training, including full board
and lodging, is expected to be priced at around $80,000 per student.”
“We are currently in the process of reviewing approximately 700 applicants Rex has received so far
and we will select an initial 20 for our inaugural cadet course. This will be followed 3 months later by
our second batch of 20 cadets. Upon successful completion of the training, the cadets will go
through 2 months of ground school and simulator training with Rex before taking up the appointment
of First Officer flying in the right hand seat for our company.”
“This initiative will enable Rex to have a guaranteed supply of highly trained pilots entering its ranks,
helping to ensure sufficient pilot numbers for both current needs and future growth.” Rex Chief of
Staff, Jim Davis, said today.
Captain Keith Wallace, General Manager of Mangalore Airport, commenting on the joint venture,
stated that “MAPL has almost completed the second stage of the brand new Academy, which
includes air-conditioned accommodation, a commercial kitchen with dining room, a purpose built
learning centre, with classrooms, briefing rooms, dispatch centre and CATA offices. Mangalore is a
large, well equipped airport, with dual all-weather runways, and published Instrument Approach
Procedures including NDB, VOR and RNAV (GNSS).”
“The owners have invested heavily in upgrades to the airport, such as a Fibre-optic LAN to connect
all the students, learning centre and administration. Runway 18/36 has been recently resurfaced. An
examination centre has been created for Assessment Services Pty Ltd to enable students to sit for
CASA theory examinations at Mangalore Airport”
2
“Captain Wallace stated that the investment to date in buildings, runway works, and infrastructure
has been achieved without financial assistance from any sources, and the project is being shaped as
the focal point of an Aviation Cluster, with the central role of providing an internationally competitive
training solution for the airline industry. In doing so, other aviation related industries and activities will
be introduced to the Goulburn Valley Region of Central Victoria, and beyond”
“The third equity partner in the joint venture, Moorabbin Flying Services (MFS), was chosen to
provide the most effective, high quality training solution to the airline industry, at a time when well
qualified pilots are being sought by all levels in the industry.
Giving details of the shareholdings and working capital, the partners revealed: “MFS will hold 15% of
the shares, with REX and MAPL splitting equally the remaining shares. CATA will start with initial
working capital of A$2 million, but we expect this to increase to A$6 million within the first 18
months”
Rex is Australia’s largest independent Regional Airline, operating a fleet of 34 SAAB 340 aircraft on
1,300 flights weekly to 25 destinations from Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide. The Rex group
comprises Regional Express, air freight and charter operator Pel-Air Aviation, and Dubbo based
regional airline Air Link.

[Icarus2001]

Where do they think that they are going to get experienced ME instructors from?

Especially with four weeks notice.

[wesky]

I think that answers the last 3 pages of this thread... I wonder if it is all 'true'....

I really hope so, it is a chance for those with less of a wallet size to get in to a seat.

[wesky]

Sorry to go off track but if you guys havent seen the FAQ

http://www.regionalexpress.com.au/cadetpilot/cadet_faq.pdf

[Lacma]

So can I pose a question, how the hell is anyone supposed to get into Rex as a direct entry F/O if they haven't done the cadetship then? I've heard they'll be sending enough cadets through to "meet requirements"...Does that mean a mix of direct and cadets or what??

[Keg]

As I suspected, bare bones CPL and no ATPL theory.

More information on this site:

http://www.raaa.com.au/pages/assocmem_civil.html

and here:

http://www.mangaloreairport.com.au/

The latter has bugger all.

Greenfields site? Four weeks notice? Buyer beware!

[Jeps]

Rex has no idea.... I may as well revoke my application. Waste of my time and most of all, waste of my money.

So they want to train cadets in an isolated quiet airport with hardly any bad weather and then inject them into airports such as Sydney and Melbourne. Wow makes alot of sense. From Mangalore to Australia's largest airport where weather and dense traffic are just part of the daily struggle in Sydney not to mention Melbourne etc etc.

Jeps

[Jeps]

Yes indeed Dr., totally agree. It would seem a rushed job all round. And no haven't heard from them.

Jeps

[Chippie Chappie]

So they're not making enough money out of flying their routes? Easy, switch to making money out of training prospective employees. At $80k a pop for training and then 5 to 6-year bond at the basic award wage should help to keep a healthy bottom line.

50% up front loan PLUS INTEREST!(10% calculated monthely). Don't forget your $2000 bond before you start.

Total time 147 SE + 20 ME :ok:

At least the REX FAQs don't say "new" Piper Seminoles....

:yuk:

Chips

[KRUSTY 34]

OK!,

So Jim Davis has released the details. By reading between the lines it appears that in order to accumulate the required multi-engine time for command, they will be farmed out to Airlink to fly the Cheiftains on Dave's RPT! A most daunting experience for even the most seasoned aviators. But probably the only viable way of doing it. Airlink is not the largest operator around, so it will take quite some time to move all cadets through?

Capt Davis mentioned that a "good" cadet may qualify for command in 4 years! I would suggest boys and girls that that the reality for the majority will lie over a much greater time frame.

And there lies the real problem. Commands at REX are currently running at little more than a year! Do you see my point Jim?

I have said it before, the decimation of the ranks of suitably qualified candidates has been the result of the industry's own doing. The sausage factory solution will only go so far. Unless REX does something to retain it's experienced crews, the airline will be out of business long before the first "good" cadet see's the left seat of a Saab!

[43Inches]

I don't see what is so bad about the deal on offer, 80K training in new aircraft inlcuding accommodation and food for 32 weeks, then guaranteed PAID work starting in multi engine aircraft(possibly turbine) with repayments from salary.

Compared to,

60K training costs with loan from bank with rates going up, another 20k for upgrades and etc, another 20k to move around country finding work etc... all on GA wages for a minimum of 2 years!

Not saying its the best deal ever in aviation but it definately is not the worst!

[RYAN TCAD]

Ah well - i don't quite see how you are guaranteed any employment actually after spending your approximate 80K! You have to successfully pass the course first!

Rex is just going to be known as the trainee airline in the public domain. Simply a two dollar tin-pot outfit.

They need to do what they have never wanted to do ever before - and that is simply to start paying the correct wage.

[Paper Planes]

43Inches - On the surface it looks like a good deal but REX aint doing this out of the goodness of their hearts :E

The thing that is concerning is ATPL subjects are not included in this program. Will REX give pilots a couple of months of work to finish them while they work them to the bone? I doubt it! Cadets will be in the RHS for many years to come which will not solve the problem of retaining/finding experienced Captains.

[ules]

:} hi guys just did a google search and read this whole topic..
i also came across the rex thing from the afap site. im intrested in the cadet program but not so excited and sure about it anymore sounded like a great deal at first.. get education paid for like a loan and guaranteed a job with them straight away.

though for half that amount i think i will probably be doing this still having problems geting money but will eventualy get it to do the course,:rolleyes: the amount of hours in this training is alot better than rex and this is comand time i get not like First officer time offered by Rex.:D

• 22 hours dual training – Tecnam / C152
• 94 hours pilot in command – Tecnam / C152
• 25 hours dual training – C172 / PA28 / TB10
• 36 hours pilot in command – C172 / PA28 / TB10
• 25 hours dual training - PA30 / BE76 / PN68
• 35 hours simulator – AT11i
Course fee
: $48,560.
Included in the above fee:
• Flight training:
" Dual training
" Solo training
" Aircraft hire
" Simulator training
• Insurance
• Fuel
• Pre flight briefings
• Post flight de-briefings
• Theory courses
Not included in the above fee:
• Pilot Support Pack – see page 24 for details.
• Medical expenses, uniform, re-test fees and additional flying beyond hours stated above.

i could possibly somehow live.. off 40 a yr. but i would only do it to gain my hours with metro or turbine aircraft so i can move to a big airline and fly the big boys.:oh:

any advice for me guys. should i hold for hope and maybe if i get accepted by rex join it and be 80g in debt though guaranteed a job and flying expirience, or should i stick with this original plan course i would be applying for.

is there really lots of jobs out there for pilots. so the rumours say, will i be able to find a good job with good pay with the training i receive?

thanks any advice would be greatly apreciated :}

[Launch_code_Harry]

For All those considering the cadetship, something to think about.
Lets do a hypothetical: You apply for the cadetship, and automatically qualify for loan for the first part of the fee ($40,000).
Because you are a diligent student, you are granted a full ($40,000) Scholarship for the second part of the course fee.
You complete the course, gain employment in the rex group. The FAQ (http://www.regionalexpress.com.au/cadetpilot/cadet_faq.pdf) is not entirely clear as to what the interest rate actually is for the loan if 6 full years (72 months) employment is completed. Further the repayment schedule is non-standard to reduce the initial payments.
However we will only consider a standard payment schedule
For the loan principle ($40,000), lets assume that the rate is 5.0% & the loan is repaid over 6 full years (72 monthly periods), the monthly payment is $644.20
Further, the scholarship is compounding away at 10%, calculated monthly.
Year____Loan___________ Scholarship_____Total Owed
0 ______$40,000.00______ $40,000.00______ $80,000.00
1______ $34,136.47______ $44,188.52______ $78,324.99
2______ $27,972.95______ $48,815.64______ $76,788.59
3______ $21,494.09______ $53,927.27______ $75,421.37
4______ $14,683.77______ $59,574.16______ $74,257.93
5______ $7525.01________$65,812.36______ $73,337.37
6______ $0.00___________$72,703.77______ $72,703.77


73rd Month of employment, total loan =$0.00 (scholarship forgiven), total repaid =$46,382.21
Note, This conservative as if five years (60 months) employment is not completed, the Loan component is recalculated at 10% compound interest & the loan repayment schedule is non-standard, reducing principle repayment initially, increasing amount outstanding later on.
This is my own interpretation of the FAQ information provided.
It is going to be very expensive to walk out the door prior to completing 72 months of employment.

[Jet_A_Knight]

So, this is going to get real interesting.

Picture this:

An inexperienced Metro III Captain teamed up with a fresh 'graduate' as FO on a Pelair Express night-freight run YSSY-YSCB-YMML, or the YSSY - YMML or YMML-YSSY legs.

Summer: Frontal storms from YSSY to YMML.

Winter: Fog in ML, AY, AV, WG, CB, NW, WLM, BTH etc - and a few times with FG at SY and BK.:ooh:

Flightwatch info available only via FS - workload permitting.:oh:

ATC using un-rated ATCer's during rated controllers 'breaks'.:mad:

No fancy EFIS as used in training - only the 'TSO'd Garmin 100 :E .

Back of the clock operations.:ouch:

20-30 year old recycled pieces-of-turbine-****e with very average anti/de-icing equipment (just to give a false sense of security):uhoh:

A general lack of situational awareness that most of the new 'up and coming, low timers' have.:eek:

Obviously, someone thought this whole thing through.:rolleyes:

Put a bullet in the chamber, and spin the barrell:{

[Barramundi]

From the Rex Cadet Scheme Q&A

If resigning within the 5 years, the outstanding Principal plus interest will be due and payable immediately. The interest is calculated at 10% on a monthly rest basis.

Picture this in 2010.

"Dad you know all that money we saved getting Rex to sponsor me for my flying training instead of you paying for it like those older pilots had to".

"Yes Son what a ripper of a scheme that was"

"Well Dad VB (or Qantas/Tiger/Cathay) have offered me a job and I am two years into my time with Rex and now have a chance to be an airline pilot which is what I wanted all along. As you know Rex want me to stay for five years but the way I see things is if I do not take this opportunity now to jump ship now I may not get another shot at the airlines".

"Well son if you leave Rex now they will want your training money paid back but as you will recall we planned back in 2007 for this situation to arise so the money has been kept aside since so I say go for the airline job and we will send them the cheque regardless".

If Rex believe in this world where loyalty counts for nothing this will not happen then hold on to your seat - it will.

[KRUSTY 34]

One possible scenerio Barra...

Another is that the cadet will leave REX without any capacity to pay. REX will then spend the next several years in court trying to get the money. It's happened already with bonding, and to date they have spent a lot of money for no result!

This of course assumes that the cadet has the quals for that "Golden" airline job. After 2 years with REX, despite the B.S. of the Cheif of staff, the cadet will not possess anywhere near the required multi-command time for any real airline position.

Those positions will be filled by the remaining multi-qualified pilots that REX, QF-Link, et'al, did not see any advantage in trying to retain.

I am afraid to say that many of the cadets will be leaving REX in the next 2 years, but not for the reasons they imagined! :(

[Barramundi]

Quote;

The scholarship will be in the form of a loan which will be forgiven if the cadet stays 6 years with Rex.

And if Rex folded who is liable for the loan?. Check the fine print kiddies.

Krusty - There is no real worries about someone shooting through without paying.

In the business world packages to entice employees is as old as moses and I guarantee recruiting airlines will soon offer a loans to future prospective employees they really want to pay out their bond to Rex in return for their undying loyalty which after all would be assured as the candidate finally reaches the pinnacle of their career.

200 hour co-pilots on a stormy night, crap weather at the minimums, high workload and inexperience coupled with a captain thats incapacitated - cheery thought - not!!.

Rex - Employ those not attracted or attractive to airlines - older and experienced pilots!!.

[The PM]

So is incapacitation of the captain a regular occurence at REX then?
I thought that was when the GFPT holder sitting in seat 12A came forward and saved the day.....



and yes, tongue is firmly in cheek, for those that aren't sure......

[Jet_A_Knight]

plus allowances (most tax free)

Allowances are not usually taxed when they're paid to you, however the ATO considers them as part of your taxable income, and you usually will have a tax liability on the amount of allowance you are paid over the year - so it's not 'tax free' .

So you would rather the 200 hr inexperienced pilot with inferior training to be crossing the straight with crayfish for company, comforting for their kin

Rather that than flying my kin around.:=

As for the crayfish, they're already 'dead fish walking'.:E

It has been said: "Experience means nothing".

[43Inches]

Certain alowances are tax free, and i care about all travellers and pilots alike, unlike the seemingly large majority who care about themselves.

[Jet_A_Knight]

43" ...

1. Exactly which allowances are tax free?

2. If you really cared about travellers, and had any idea, you would understand that all things being equal, experience up the front is what is important.

The crew is the most flexible and usually, last line of defense, when things go wrong.

I can unequivically tell you, that from what i have seen in the last year or so as a standard of 'low time up and coming' crews - some of them regarded as 'switched on' and 'hotshots', they have no place in the front of a passenger or freight turboprop - luckily there have still been some experienced captains to 'hold their hands'.

That's all changing now - and we are staring a regional or freight turboprop accident in the face - within 2 years.

Unless the luck holds out.

But hey, whilst the luck holds out - no need to pay the money or dish out the conditions and respect to hold on to the 'career regional drivers' who could pass on some very valuable experience - some of it actually hard fought and won - even over the strait at night.

[43Inches]

Experience is worth nothing if you have not experienced the problem at hand. To be ahead of the game requires adequate training from people that have knowledge and training with regard to past experience collectively and the vigilance to maintain standard.

I have flown with low timers that outshine high timers because their attitude and awareness towards their job is superior. Its the selection process, training and checking that ensure safety not hours!

[KRUSTY 34]

Jet _A..,

Well said.

Mr 43,

not exactly sure where you're coming from mate?

I don't think anybody in their right mind would call what a REX pilot (especially a first year F/O) earns as being "good hours and pay". Add to that the expense of a massive loan, the almost zero prospect of command, and a contract that effectively prevents the cadet from moving on. What you will have, is an underclass of diseffected people surrounded by a shrinking and cynical group of senior pilots who will jump ship at the first opportunity!

To be honest, I'll be surprised if it works at all.

Finally, it will take much more than a "small increase" in conditions to make REX a very good place to work.

If you work for REX, then I am suspicious of your motives. If you don't, then you clearly don't know what you're talking about!

[43Inches]

I dont believe pay is adequate at REX and conditions have some ground to make, but, remember that pilots themselves agreed to the current arrangement.
As far as the cadetship goes i'am only comparing it with what is currently available on the market to be fair to those applying for it, if you have a better solution for people entering the market then voice your opinion.

[KRUSTY 34]

Ok 43 inches, I'll bite!

Beleive it or not I am not ideoligically opposed to cadets. I have stated before that because of the state of the industry, it may be inevitable in one form or another. Whether or not a cadet comes up to scratch will depend on a number of factors, and in fact is a whole other subject.

What I am opposed to is a scheme that will create an underclass within REX.

What I am opposed to is REX management failing to take any sort of responsibility for the situation we now find ourselves in.

Jim Davis has stated that the reason young Australians have deserted the industry is because of the expense. Well I've got news for you, It's always been expensive! In the past, I've worked 3 Jobs at once to help make the Dream a reality.

The reality now is that the dream has lost much of it's appeal. Apart from driving down wages and conditions, what has the industry done in the last 10-15 years to encourage people to take up the profession?

The reality is, that at the current rate of attrition, in 3 years REX will have very few pilots left that can legally hold a command!

The appetite for pilots for the major airlines over the next 3 years will be ravenous. If REX does not do something to retain their existing pilots, then all the cadet schemes in the world will not save the company.

If I'm wrong, I will say oh! I was wrong.

If I'm right, then REX is scr@wed!

[Oh that's super!]

I've got to say an inexperienced FO flying with an inexperienced captain would worry me far more than the possibility of the captain becoming incapacitated. In-flight incapacitation doesn't seem to happen very often but inexperienced captains 'happen' quite often (and perhaps even more so in the future).

Besides, what will be happening to the training quality when experienced, good trainers move on?

[Keg]

And the winner is.......

43inches for this gem!

Experience is worth nothing if you have not experienced the problem at hand.

I'm sure a pilot with bugger all experience would be able to do exactly the same as Al Haynes considering that no one has experienced that at all before. :rolleyes:

If your posts are a pointer towards the quality of the Rex cadetship then they're in a more dire place than I originally thought! :ugh:

[lucille]

43 inches.. you wrote:
"So you would rather the 200 hr inexperienced pilot with inferior training to be crossing the straight with crayfish for company, comforting for their kin.
Or the 200 hour cadet to have proper training by an airline respected for its standards who can easily handle an incapacitated captain."

And so, are you telling us that the above are the only 2 choices available? Seems rather emotive to me and a tad immature, I'd have expected a more reasoned approach from a self styled professional.

And then theres your assumption that the 200 hour cadet will be better trained and more competent than the 200 hour inexperienced pilot. It will take way more than 200 hours to train someone to RHS airline standards unless of course your airline standards are somewhat "more relaxed" due to commercial pressures. I could point you at a couple of smoking holes in the ground that are testimony to a commercially induced "relaxation of standards".

GA in Australia has always attracted the grubbiest of business operators, I rather suspect that the managers of 3rd level airlines are of the same ilk. The blame for this state of affairs must also partly lie with the customers who continually put cost pressures on operators by only looking at the bottom line.

As for me, I left Oz in 1987, and for the first time in my life, I experienced the novelty of not having to fly aircraft carrying a long string of undocumented snags. Not only were all the aircraft beautifully maintained, but my salary went up dramatically to boot. It turned out that this subversive state of affairs was normal everywhere else except in good old Oz.

Is it any wonder that I never came back.

Furthermore, I am not Robinson Crusoe. There are thousands like me with all sorts of useful experience who will come back, just as soon as GA and the 3rd level airlines in Oz leave their 3rd world mentality behind. Balls in your court, employers..grit your teeth and come join the 21st century. Treat your employees with respect, pay them the going global rate - you may be surprised.

Thus in the twilight years of my flying career it is with a delicious sense of schadenfreude that I observe the likes of Rex et al squirming and now bleating for government aid.

[whaet]

haha i love this quote at the end of the REX faqs...


Based on current conditions, good cadets can
reasonably expect to attain their command between the third and fourth year of being a First Officer. A Rex Captain with 5-6 years flying experience usually is suitable for a First Officer position in a large commercial jet aircraft.


sounds as if they don't even want to hold onto any of their pilots

whaet

[2p!ssed2drive]

:}

Who ARE THEY TO SAY THAT 5-6 years flying experience usually is suitable for a First Officer position in a large commercial jet aircraft.


My goodness! When
large commercial jet aircraft
companies are offering cadetships of their own

Ay Rex - Keep the laughs coming :D

[SIUYA]

43Inches

Or the 200 hour cadet to have proper training by an airline respected for its standards

Which airline would that be?

HINT: Have a look at:

a)

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1998/AAIR/aair199805068.aspx
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2002/AAIR/aair200201228.aspx
http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2002/AAIR/aair200203074.aspx

b) Keg's post #213

and

c) lucille's post #214, paying particular attention to lucille's observation of...

smoking holes in the ground that are testimony to a commercially induced "relaxation of standards"

before you answer the question.

[43Inches]

Krusty - I agree with everything you have said in your post, and unfortunately I think your final statement will come to fruition.

Rex will be employing low time pilots whether they go through the cadetship or not, the only thing i'm trying to point out is whether there is any benefit to them doing this training course as opposed to self sourced education and job hunting.

All things being considered it seems like they will get quality training and a certain carreer path. However as has been stated previously it is in the candidates interest to ask questions and read the fine print. And just like anything else in life shop around, but, make sure the big picture is looked at.

The reason for the example given regarding crayfish hauling was the equally extreme call on captain incapacitation, at least training covers this.

As far as my line on experience, Al Haynes used very basic priciples of flight to control the aircraft, he used his experience in the aircraft to understand its new characteristics and quickly adapt to the situation. There is no doubt that experience will help in extreme situations but it still comes from what you have EXPERIENCED including the training you recieved.

The ATSB has numerous reports from all airlines in aus I could post links to aircraft on golf courses and others that departed on the wrong runway or almost ditched. Are you stating that the training in these airlines is sub standard too. The interesting thing about all of these is that they were crewed by experienced pilots who made bad decisions.

Iam not in favour of inexperienced captains who are inadequately trained and left with a bag of luck, and if it does degenerate into a reduced standard due to commercial pressure then this will spread australia wide not just in rex.

[outthere]

Hi All,

I have been reading this thread and others like it for a while now.

I know I am going to get my head chewed off for saying this. I have seen a lot of comments against the REX cadet scheme. A lot of pilots on this forum are saying that the answer is not to run the cadet scheme but keep pilots that are already employed by offering better incentives.

If there are only so many experienced pilots in the world, why do the airlines need to keep poaching from regional carriers. It seems that there is more air travel than ever which requires more pilots then ever. So the airlines obviously run out of pilots and need to recruit more. This then leaves a gap in the regionals. They need to hire more pilots but where are they going to come from. Well they poach flying instructors and pilots with experience.

So then who will the flying schools get to be flying instructors. Well we will hire our students that have qualified as flight instructors.

There seems to be a progression from student to instructor to regional to airlines. So if rex is not doing the cadet thing where are the many thousands of pilots going to come from to fly all of these new planes.

All I am trying to say is if the pilots on this forum are so unhappy with what rex is doing then instead of b*tching about it why not come up with your own solution to the problem.

Just a thought.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Yes, REX and other regionals are going to be getting low time pilots - it inevitable, and no one disagrees with this fact.

And yes, most of them are going to be able to steer the aeroplane, know the regs, know the systems and the IFR. Will they understand the often subtle interaction between them all.

I will tell you - from experience - where these pilots will fail, and fail miserably.

Situational Awareness

Judgement

Cunning

Foresight

In my previous employment, I had seen plenty of guys who could steer, but could not think or make a decision to save themselves - and often committed the aeroplane to the air before they had all the info they could get - and they did not worry at all about it.:hmm:

Why? They did not know enough to know what they didn't know, and what they needed to worry about - or plan for.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

That's ok, if there's a captain with experience in the LHS to make the decisions.

And my long winded point is:

How many experienced Captains are going to hang around and teach these guys this stuff?

And, how many experienced Captains are going to stick their hand up and volunteer to do so for an extra 6-10%?

That money will never buy back the years lost off one's nervous system.:{

In the regionals and mid-level TP operators, it will, n the not too distant future, be a case of the blind leading the blind.

In some companies this is the case right now.:=

[Oh that's super!]

In the regionals and mid-level TP operators, it will, n the not too distant future, be a case of the blind leading the blind.

Already happening to some extent, I'd say, and it will only get worse.

[3-8-Echo]

and a certain carreer path.

Well, no kidding there mate, 7 years as a Rex FO anybody? Make no mistake, Rex will be trapping their cadets as FO's for as long as possible. Why do you think they make such limited mention of ATPL's in the FAQ, and make no effort to include ATPL theory in the course?

There is no doubt that experience will help in extreme situations but it still comes from what you have EXPERIENCED including the training you recieved.

Extreme situations are exactly when experience is needed! Sure, you can practice unusual attitudes in training, but the bigger concern here is decision making when encountering bad weather and controlled airports with a bank up of traffic, this is not something that can be covered adequately in a 32 week course. If a captain becomes incapacitated flying into Sydney in deteriorating conditions, do you really think passenger safety will be up to scratch with a cadet of 180TT behind the controls?

Iam not in favour of inexperienced captains who are inadequately trained and left with a bag of luck

No, but two out of three ain't bad, right? :rolleyes:

[The PM]

Why do you think they make no mention of ATPL's in the FAQ

That's not the case at all. Not necessarily disagreeing with the main point of your post, but the FAQs do in fact make mention of the issue of ATPL subjects.

[outthere]

Not I said the bear !!!!

I got asked to send in my HSC and have not heard a thing since. Mind you I completed my HSC in 1994 and so it is not a valid representation of where I am in my life now. I just finished a Cert IV in Info Tech with mostly distinctions. Can't say my HSC was too crash hot.

[Dogslay]

I know I am about to be shot down, but here goes.

What is the difference betwen a Qantas cadet and a Rex cadet? They also land in the right seat of a Qantas regional partner eg. Air North. Nobody condems that system.

I work for a major carrier in Japan that has for the last approx 20 years placed 200hr cadets in the right seat of a B767. All the airline has done is install checks and balances as to when a co-pilot with limited experience can fly, eg not more than half max x-wind limit for landing and T/off. They stipulate a max T/off weight for co-pilots, etc. These pilots are operating in much more congested airspace, inhospitable terrain and weather conditions than any cadet will ever experience in Australia. (They also don't have English as a first language).

Why in Australia is no one allowed an 'easy ride', if you don't slog it out the hard way you can't possibly be good at your job!!! I think we should be thankful that aviation has reached a point that places like Rex have now realised that they too must contribute inorder to reap.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Dogslay.

1. They are not going to fly ILS to ILS like you probably do in your B767.

2. They will be flying into airports with rudimentary, bordering on poor, facilities (NDB app, PAPI, uncontrolled aerodrome).

3. The weather is not always sunny and clear in Australia, and up-to-the-minute weather reports for the fields they will operate into are generally not available.

4. They will probably be flying with Captains with progressively less & less experience - I would imagine your captains have a good deal of line experience.

5. REX are not really contributing - they are working on a way to have indentured labour.

6. The terrain here may not be as bad as Katmandu or Innsbruck or wherever, but the ground is still as hard under the right set of circumstances, and some of the storms we deal with are not exactly just summer breezes.:hmm:

7. I bet your captains are paid alot more than the Rex captains who would be expected to hold the hands of these guys over shorter and more frequent sectors than you would in your B767

8. SF340 do not have autoland like a B767 nor as many bells and whistles and technology .

9. SF340 spends more time in 'weather' like ice and rain and clouds etc etc etc - your B767's fly above it.

etc etc etc etc etc I could go on, but I am sure you get the picture.

If you don't I am sure others will fill you in.

The regional operations in rural Australia may not seem as 'dangerous' as other places with terrain and 'weather' but when you add all the operating environment we have here, they have their own risks and ideosynchrasies - none of which tolerate inexperience or ineptitude under certain circumstances.

[ules]

well said jet a knight
. i recently got a reply from rex when i emailed them.. asking about more information on ATPL and command time, and hours and repayments, they replied to me ..

Thank you for your interest in REX.

Please download the FAQs from our website as follows. We hope they will assist you when making your decision.


:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
hmm..

[Dogslay]

Jet A Knight, you didn't answer the question about the Qantas cadets.

By the way I flew domestically in Oz for 6 years, I know the terrain , wx etc please don't talk down to me, I have been doing this for 30 years. I flew B737's into MTAF's etc ,I know what I am talking about.

I have also trained from ab initio to 4 engine jets, I have met 200 hour pilots that would put high and mighty 3000 hour pilots to shame.

[404 Titan]

Dogslay

I have to agree with you. I have been flying for 22 years, my first 15 in Australia, mostly in remote FNQ and PNG and can count on one hand the number of times I have flown an NDB approach in anger. Infact I've done more visual approaches at night onto RWY24 at KIX in Japan in the last seven years than I have done real NDB approaches in Aus and I have lost count of the number of landings I've done on snow covered runways. Mix this with some very poor ATC in most of Asia and the workload goes through the roof. To cap it off, many airlines in this region operate with a low time cadets in the right seat. Some people need a reality check. Aus isn't a difficult environment to fly in, especially with cadets.

[The Kavorka]

Australia has the best safety record in the world......lets keep it that way!!!!

I don't beleive it's an accident that we have had no major airline crashes in this country...experience counts for a lot for this!!!!

It may be so thats cadets fly all over the world in the RHS of some very big machines but if they can gain some real world experience before they take this step it can only be a good thing.....

[Launch_code_Harry]

To those considering the Rex cadetship you would be wise to consider KRUSTY34 point about commands.
A CPL requires a minimum of 70 Hours Solo (logged as command) flight.
Rex First Officer requires a CPL & Co-Pilot endorsement.
A command requires an ATPL & Command Endorsement.
An ATPL requires 250 command hours, of which 150 can be ICUS (In Command Under Supervision). However, ICUS time can only be logged if you hold a Command Endorsement & the Rex Operations Manual permits it.

So a hypothetical situation could occur, where you had a Co-Pilot endorsement & 70 Command hours after checking to line as a First Officer. In order to gain a command, you would need to go and fly at your own expense approx 180 hours (at about $135 per hour for a C152 =$24,300) of solo time before you were eligible for a command, in addition to your ATPL subjects.
So, two questions should be asked & answered in writing before I signed up for an $80,000 loan would be:
* Will I gain a command endorsement on a Rex Group Aircraft?
* Can I log ICUS time?
If you cannot answer YES to both questions you should weigh up the pro's & cons of spending 6 years in the RHS or spending an extra $25000 (in addition to the $45,000 you will pay back) to gain command time before signing up.

[puff]

In relation to the Command time issue, if you read the FAQs you will be cadets in the 'REX group', thus this means at sometime they may place you with any of the sub companies which is perhaps where your 200 odd hours of 'command' time may come from.

[Launch_code_Harry]

perhaps where your 200 odd hours of 'command' time may come from
'may' being the operative word.

[43Inches]

Interesting to see the minimums at a certain operator in Scotland;

Captains
We are currently looking for Direct Entry Captains to join our growing SAAB 340 Fleet

Courses start in Mid December and January 2008.

Application are invited online from pilots with UK or JAR ATPL(A), or Type Rated pilots with Licences that may be converted. Applicants should have a current multi engine IR and a Minimum of 1,500 hours total flying time, including 500-hrs on multi-pilot types.

A valid MCC Certificate or exemptions are also necessary.
.
First Officers
UK or JAR Frozen ATPL(A) With current multi engine IR.
35 hours as pilot of aeroplanes during 12 months prior to application. Valid MCC Certificate or exemptions.


Im sure the weather there is great for flying with wide open airspace!


Also if REX does colapse and can no longer be the training ground for VB and J* and the like where are they going to get thier pilots from, are there going to be 180 hr cadets RHS in an Embraer going to regional destinations?

[White and Fluffy]

In relation to the Command time issue, if you read the FAQs you will be cadets in the 'REX group', thus this means at sometime they may place you with any of the sub companies which is perhaps where your 200 odd hours of 'command' time may come from.


GREAT! you get to spend all that money on a cadetship to go and fly a busted up Chieftain for AirLink in Dubbo, sounds like what most other people do in GA for far less money and no bond for 7 years!

There are no free lunches, get off your backside, work hard in your first few jobs and then reap the rewards in later life.

[Transition Layer]

go and fly a busted up Chieftain for AirLink in Dubbo

Their Chieftains are actually bloody nice, hardly what I call busted up! However, I'd be more worried about Old Mate sitting in the RHS barking at you during your renewal/base check/line check etc etc. He's mad as a cut snake!

[Casper]

I fear that Rex may have read the situation totally incorrectly by not hiring, paying more, upgrading T & Cs etc.

What's going to happen when the regional jets (VB, Airnorth, Sky Air World etc) start operating services to ports previously serviced by Rex and other regional operators? Rex simply won't need the drivers any more so I'd think very, very carefully before selling your souls into bondage with an outfit that simply hasn't looked ater its staff in an appropriate manner, despite increasing profits.

[The PM]

Heard on a local radio news bulletin that covers Western NSW at 7am this morning, that REX have called a press conference for this morning.Subject? Pilot shortages. No other details at that stage, and haven't heard anything since.

[32megapixels]

Big report on Commsec from rex!

[apache]

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20071107/pdf/315p12z8sykvjn.pdf

the latest REX media release

[nike]

The last slide of that download is classic.

Titled: "Reasons for resignations"

Not sure "Reasons" is the correct word for the title when the pie chart references various airlines.

How does the slice titled "other" fit into this slide?

I would have thought, the slices should have been titled such "reasons" as...

Pay
Lifestyle
Personal
Retirement
Loss of Medical
Career Change........amongst others.

A company is not a reason to resign. What a company might offer IS.

Weird certainly, but I guess not unexpected from spin-doctors and those idiots who love making these little slide shows for their presentations. Pretty.

[Jet_A_Knight]

3rd on the list of 'reasons' for leaving is 'other'.

Is that other reasons?

Or other airlines?

Nice graphs by the way.

What about a graph that shows a comparison between payscales of all the other carriers.

Let's put a few more in there and see what the graph of rate of increase in payscale over the last 10 years and see how pretty that looks.

etc etc

[To infinity & beyond]

It looked like a roundabout for them to go round and round in circles on, and just keep on blaming everyone else for their problems.

[BombsGone]

Have a read of this

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/07/2084239.htm?site=riverina

It appears at least one politician has bitten off on what REX is selling.

[Wizofoz]

Yes, I love the way that Jetstar, Qantas and Virgin Blue are "Reasons". Last time I checked they were airlines!!

It seems that REX is trying to say that it goes without saying that people will leave to go to the other airlines, without needing to answer the simple question, why?

[pig dog]

Until now I have just been watching the Rex threads from the sidelines with interest, but the chart on page 6 is just incredible. It shows that almost as many pilots have left between July and October this year as did for the previous 2 years combined. Additionally even at what looks like conservative figures for Rex's forward resignation projections, the annual resignations this financial year will equal 61.4% of their pilots. How can any airline afford to lose this kind of experience and expect to survive?

Would the last one to leave please turn the lights out!

[The Kavorka]

Now, I was not very good at maths so please some correct me if i'm wrong..

According to the graph 69 people have left and they have replaced them with 67 others.......

How does this equate to a shortage, and how come they have cancelled so many flights?????

I think they have printed numbers to fool the mums and dads who have shares so they don't panic and sell them......(I believe there could be a law against that!!!)

Anyway time will tell....

[nomorecatering]

Oh great, now we see Rex cadets farmed out to Airlink and Pelair, surely that will see the end of direct entry pilots for Ailink and Pelair.

Are we going to see a situation develop where cadets are favoured over experianced drivers.

5 years ago I had not enough hours, now, It seems I have too many.

[ules]

wow :eek: rex are really trying hard to keep their investors by spining so much crap it just goes to show that wat i heard might be true,
my brother who works for a preety big company in sydney (not mentioning lol ) heard rumours of rex collapsing,apparently heaps of share holders and investors are slowly pulling out ,
i dont know if this is true. so dont start yelling and bagging me out lol.
:D

[SIUYA]

Dr Oakenfold

Good point! And it's more or less along the same lines as the point I've tried to make to aircraft in post #87 on page 5 of the 'Rex suspends maryborough services too' thread.

Mods.............any chance of merging the 'Rex and the Media Release','Rex recruiting..or lack of', and 'Rex suspends maryborough services too' threads, because they all seem to be taking the same direction?

[neville_nobody]

Dictionary.com defines poaching as:
1. To trespass on another's property in order to take fish or game.
2. To take fish or game in a forbidden area.
3. To become muddy or broken up from being trampled. Used of land.
4. To sink into soft earth when walking.
5. 1. To take or appropriate something unfairly or illegally.
2. Sports To play a ball out of turn or in another's territory, as in doubles tennis.

So how REX can then complain that their pilots are being poached is beyond me. Free market economics cuts both ways. The pilot market has been in airlines favour from the inception of Kendall and Hazo's for the first time in any of these company's history they are running into a labour supply problem. To try and solve this issue by complaining that major airlines who pay DOUBLE what you are paying are "stealing" all your pilots is illogical. If you were the RAAF and the airlines were paying out bonds for the pilots that could be considered poaching however people who are attending interviews of their own free will are not being poached.

Funnily enough in the USA some regional airlines guarantee a certain percentage of their pilots will get into mainline!!


From the Australian November 9th 2007

REGIONAL Express has blamed poaching of pilots by low-cost airlines for the suspension of some of its air routes.
Rex deputy chairman John Sharp said the airline had been losing significant numbers of pilots to low-cost operators Virgin Blue and Jetstar.
"We would like to think that both Virgin Blue and Jetstar could do more to solve their pilot shortage problems than just raiding regional airlines," Mr Sharp said. Both Jetstar and Virgin Blue have hit back, saying they were not poaching, as pilots naturally wanted to move from a regional operation with turbo props to jets.
And those two airlines are also losing pilots to overseas airlines offering higher salary packages.
Rex announced the suspension of its Brisbane to Maryborough service on Monday, blaming pilot shortages.
That suspension followed a network review to identify the routes with the lowest load factors, and followed a similar initiative undertaken at Cooma for the off-season until May 18.
The airline has also been forced to cut a third of its flights between Sydney and Wagga Wagga until Christmas.
"The shortage of pilots has been described by Qantas' chief pilot Chris Manning as even more catastrophic than the collapse of Ansett," Rex managing director Geoff Breust said.
Speaking at the Regional Aviation Association of Australia Convention at Coolum last month, Captain Manning said the pilot shortage was the worst he had seen in "my 37 years at Qantas".
Rex sees its problem as only medium-term. It claims to have had 700 applicants for its pilot cadet scheme, with the first batch of 20 to start their 32 weeks of training at the Rex pilot academy on December 10. The airline has teamed with Mangalore Airport in a joint venture to create the Civil Aviation Training Academy.
The academy expects to accept up to 80 pilots in the first year, but has plans to increase the intake to 350 a year by the third or fourth year of operations.
The first few intakes will be reserved for cadets recruited under the Rex Pilot Cadet scheme, after which the Academy will accept private students as well as those sent from other airlines, both local and international.
Rex chief of staff Jim Davis said Australia would need "1800 over the next two years, but the supply of new Airline Transport Pilot Licences every year in Australia is less than 400".
Under the Rex pilot scheme, pilots will be sheltered from most of the $80,000 cost of the pilot training, in return for a five year commitment.
The airline is also pressuring Government to do more, by providing loans similar to those in tertiary institutions.

[Chadzat]

AS far as I am aware- it is still the case that pilots must APPLY to the majors for a job. How can that be called poaching if the PILOTS want to progress their careers?

[The Kavorka]

Again this just proves how farked Rex management is......

I left rex for Jq and was not poached.....(i'm not wild game!!!although some ladies may disagree!!:cool:)

I left to fly a jet and get paid more than the pittence Rex was offering.....as many others have..

If these baboons think they are going to train 80 pilots a year they are kidding..there is no instructors left, let alone ones that live in Mangalore..

After to speaking to a very Senior Rex capatain recently he expresed his disgust with the company as he believed that instead of pumping money into untried wannabes, they should at least reward the guys who are willing to stick around and help the company out their current situation..

But no, GB and his group of yes men would not even consider that....:mad:

[Level Ridiculous]

This is my first post. I have spent today on the net sending off as many resumes as possible because Im sick of being taken for granted by the Rex Group. The level of disrespect is unbounded and then these unbelievable press releases which is where we have to get all our information from because the company is so arrogant about whats happening. They're enough to make you spew. This current management should be thrown off the harbour bridge for their absolute lack of direction. Talk about heads buried in the sand. You would think it was quite the opposite, i.e. a pilot surplus. There is no way possible that they can get out of this current situation. I say tough tits, sucked in and now whos smiling chumps. Its been said before 'Last one out turn the lights off'

[Lodown]

Rex has made it abundantly clear that they are not prepared to be anything other than a temporary notation on the pilot's log book. Unfortunately this might translate to a temporary mention in the annals of Australian aviation history too.

[KRUSTY 34]

Kim Hai, REX Chairman is in town tomorrow. Amongst other things, a meeting with the Orange council. Rumour has it that the council are mightily pissed off with the high rate of cancellations. Well get used to it boys. Unless REX attacks the real issue, retention of existing crew, things will only get worse!

Also on the agenda, a meeting between with the REXPC. To the best of my knowledge this is the first time he has met with them at an official level!!! It will be interesting to view the minutes (if of course they are available).

At the rate REX are losing crew, (I know it's all be said before) the only solution is a re-evaluation of the worth of the regional airline pilot. To date, this has not been a consideration of the company. Any sort of half assed watered down attempt, (please see the QF Link insult) will only result in failure.

It is now crunch time. Do what's necessary, or lose the airline!

[wethereyet]

As always K34, you call it like it is.

I would be nice if the media could do some research and get it right, the boys aren't leaving to fly jets... they are leaving because a captains salary at Rex after tax only just meets the interest payments on an average house.

Highly professional individuals who have made many sacrifices and are unable to make ends meet while doing max hours, WTF. At least 60-70% of intakes would be happy to see their career out in a regional airline, the figures just don't add up.

It's to late to ask a horse that's bolted would he have stayed for $$$. Like a divorce, it's really already happened before the paperwork.

Unfortunately we will have to watch the retards bathe in bonuses till it all runs dry :rolleyes: Greedy, greedy.

[nomorecatering]

Hmmmm 80 cadet pilots a year and all starting on the 10th Dec at Mangalore?

Its 4 weeks away and there is no ramp built for their aircraft, and there is no space left on the existing airport ramp. Between us and Kestral we have taken all the spots. There is a new apron planned but its not going to be done in 4 weeks.

In recent weeks 3 small classrooms have been built by the airport. Also aparently 15 new Warriors and 2 new Seminoles have been orderd.

However it will be a good thing for the airport as the number of aircraft based here eventually will compell the airport owner into spending some money on new parallel taxiways.

Dont know where they are going to get Grade 1's from, I hear of a few grade 3's being approached. Also much training will be in simulators, so you wont clock up huge hrs as an instructor. Salaries offered though, seem quite attractive from what I hear.

All hearsay so open to correction.

[wessex19]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD6gbrIw4nQ

[downwind]

The new cadetship in MNG that REX has got going is very similar to the Ansett cadetships they had in Tamworth in the 90's, the cadets from there went succesfully into Kendell then into QF, AN and now DJ etc... without the 500 m\e cmd. The 500 m/e command comes from the old senior commercial requirement needed by the old CASA. Cadets are going to be the new way for airlines in australia in the future. An airline can have the choice of picking fresh young naive wanabees for a pitence and training them to there standards, just look at ryanair in europe a classic example and lufthansa flight training in bremen they have been doing it for years and flying in europe is LOT more demanding than flying in Oz.

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday downwind, few questions.

How many Ansett Cadets were there during the aforementioned period?

How many of these went on to attain command?

In our new CASA, as opposed to the old CASA!, how many multi-command hours are required to hold a command on the SAAB 340 in REX service?