Unilaterally imposed Conditions of Service [Archive]

Westcoastcapt

9th Oct 2007, 02:17

Good evening,

It appears that we have yet again, been given another new COS. There have been so many changes since I joined CX, I really am not quite sure what COS I'm now on.

At first glance, this new COS change will have no real impact on me. I've been given a meagre payrise tied to HDP, and should I choose, I can now stay past 55 at my present payscale. However, for our younger members, the impact of these changes will be harder to quantify. Only time wll tell if there is an adverse effect on their progression due to the extended retirement age and the integration of ASL.

My real concern is I think that there is an even greater issue here, that for whatever reason, is being overlooked. Imagine, here we are in a time of unprecedented growth and record profits. We're told that last years record profits are supposedly going to be dwarfed by this years gains. It's boomtime, however, all I was able to secure is a meagre payrise of 1.7%, starting next year, and tied to productivity through HDP. Moreover, my profit share was only 6.4 days and I won't get a 13th month. What we are being given, in no way reflects the success of this company, nor the reality of the airline industry.

Now, given these meagre gains in the boom times, just imagine how much CX will want back in the down times. If the HKAOA cannot negotiate something of substance when we supposedly have the upper hand, what success will they have when the company wants to reduce our package.

Now, that's scary!

Farman Biplane

9th Oct 2007, 03:06

Sounds like there might be a quorum at the EK show?

Speedlever

9th Oct 2007, 03:07

From the latest fleet forum I attended, it seems Cathay has found another novel way to solve some of the crewing issues they are faced with. Direct from the horses mouth, quote

" B777 F/O's are to be P2X'd back to the 744 to fly as S/O's"

This is on the back of three man long haul / 21 hour duty peroids(AFTL's) that are as we speak, being approved by the HKCAD.

Anyone from the AOA care to comment?

bobrun

9th Oct 2007, 03:19

Just read the new COS....very disapointing to say the least.

Question: after a current SO (employed before Jan 08) upgrades to FO and then goes on a base...on which pay scale will he be? The "old" one or the new COS08? There is a huge difference between the two.

The Management

9th Oct 2007, 03:50

The Misses is buying a new Jaguar but she doesn’t know which color to choose. Can someone help?

I need some help on deciding where to buy a condo. We were thinking on London UK, Whistler CAN, or Phuket, TH.

Bugger, I’ll get the Misses the red one and I will buy all three.

Got to like that new COS don’t you. Brings a smile to my face. You’ll love the new AFTL’s even better.

Our new joiners, S/O’s, JF/O’s and F/O’s may not like it but we needed to reduce your conditions and time to command to retain our Senior Management and Senior pilots. They are of course the people that keep this airline running.

You may receive some bypass pay when we CAT A you one month before your course.

Time to command may increase but remaining in the co-pilots seat for another 6-7 years will only increase your experience. Imagine how much you can learn from our Senior Captains on their base.

The time to get a basing may increase somewhat but it will only be 10 years. You can enjoy that time in Hong Kong with the beautiful scenery and great expat package. It will broaden your horizons.

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome our ASL brethrens to our team. Remember Volume 1.

Here’s to my booooooooooooooonus. Got to love it. Great time to be a Manager don’t you think.

Now put you head in the sand and it will feel better in a couple of months.

The Management

slapfaan

9th Oct 2007, 04:07

Anyone from the AOA care to comment?

Congratulations to the AOA for once again achieving...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!

So the new CO's gets forced down our throats...and just to stop a few of us from squeeling, a ridiculous little payrise to make up for 10 years of inflation and living cost increases...

Why people still bother to contribute to this worthless, useless, gut-less organization, goes beyond me...Oh yeah..sorry..it's for "THE CAUSE":ok:

My real concern is I think that there is an even greater issue here, that for whatever reason, is being overlooked.

WestCoastCapt..you hit the nail right on it's head..cx has, and always will have some hidden agenda..so me reckons if you can't fight 'em..join 'em..get as many ratings as you can..get as much housing money as you can..play their little game of majong...and when you've had enough fun, look elsewhere..

cxflyer

9th Oct 2007, 04:38

Westcoastcapt hit it on the head. It was only a few months ago that there was a full page picture of a couple of Cathays "leaders???" , slapping each other on the back for the huge half year gain. Now this is the best they will do. Just imagine what awaits us in any future downturn in business. For those younger members don't wait. Look elsewhere.

Iwannahumpalot

9th Oct 2007, 04:47

I read the AOA email last night and once again it would seem that S.Turner has his hands in the cookie jar. From my reading of the email, it sounded like it was all our fault!! And the smart a$% that he is, he even has the audacity to tell us that he was expecting this response from the company.

My personal view is that i am leaving the AOA as quickly as i can, I have lost all my faith in it and what it is supposed to stand for. And just to rub salt into our wounds, ****e for brains P.Walker insults me by telling me that the numbers that the company got from our own negotiators is what they are offering us. Although knowing who our negotiators are/were, it doesnt surprise me.

Yes i am fuming, and i am sure that someone is going to post saying we need to all stick together, blah blah...been doing that since i have been in this company and i havent seen anything positive yet.

And yes i am looking elsewhere, and yes the sandpit looks great, however, remember if your thinking of going there they dont have no Unions so on thinking about it, its much the same here i guess...I wont be attending the EK roadshow, as i am sure that CX will have people there wanting to screw me again so i will do it the old fashioned way via the internet!! If you do go to the roadshow, make sure that you speak to Donna, she is the chick to see :) My mates in Dragonair have formed a company and 20 Captains are in negotiations with China Airlines at the moment, asking for $18KUS/month and a free first class ticket to Oz...same thing happening with Korean Air and here we are fighting a lost battle for a frigging 3% payrise, WTF!!!!!!

CYRILJGROOVE

9th Oct 2007, 04:55

If the company thinks I am going to be checked by an ASL C&T Capt they better think again ,

Saturn

9th Oct 2007, 05:43

Well, maybe this time I see things a little different. Just an opinion nothing more. Guy's and gals if you think for one minute that EK is a better deal you maybe a little surprised if and when you go. They have the same problems we have and pay less than we do. To give up your seniority here to start all over there isn't really that smart is it? Dubai is not Hong Kong! Train system-huh? Pollution-yes as well, you think it's hot here? No bases anywhere else!!!Come on lets be realisitic we all may not be happy but dare I say it? The new deal is really not that bad-UH OH did I hear a pin drop? If you really research airlines and conditions all over the world you WILL find that CX has the best deal around overall. Can it be better, do we want more, of course. As a pilot group we will never truly get everything we think we deserve. "(HKAOA)Ladies and gentlemen we have reached a new deal with the company. We get a 100% raise and only have to fly on thursdays. (Member) You mean every thursday?" I am already hearing that some of the UPS boys are already regretting their move. They work very hard and you only get TWO WEEKS leave.
What this does in effect is null and void the AOA. I hate to say that but it is the reality. The AOA is an association and not a union. They have no power what so ever and never will. Next change is AFTL's. That is what is really going to hurt.
I guess I'd throw a fit too but this is a business and we are employees. You can choose to accept the reality or not. The fact is it could be a lot worse. They are not taking anything away. The FACA agreement was not being honored by most anyway. ASL was a mistake and now is being fixed. Cathay will not run their company based on what we think or want. No business will. Look at what happened to all those airlines in the US after 9/11. The employees there all lost a lot.
Yes, we can whine on PPRune as that is what it is for. Yes, you can leave but will be surprised at what is REALLY out there. Show up at the EK open house and go to an interview and see Dubai and the operation but really think about what you are doing. Don't sacrifice your life,job,family to just spite CX cause you will probably wind up spiting yourself. CX IS a good airline a good job and Hong Kong is a fun place. This is I guess an unfortunate reality?

fatbus

9th Oct 2007, 05:58

Do listen to what Saturn said. DXB is not HK. There is a lot of very pissed off pilots at EK wanting out right now and are just waiying foe something better and after the traffic death,of a pilot, this past weekend many are just looking for somewhere safe for their families.

To add to this last year a Pilots daughter was killed in a car crash as well, let us not forget her.

whodunnit2

9th Oct 2007, 06:02

Saturn,

I can't disagree with most of what you say. The problem is, and the star chamber love this little one, the trend! We are going nowhere fast while everybody else catches up. EK might not match us at this moment but in a year two they might well be much better off.

We are making huge profits and getting 3% for our troubles. Wow. As somebody stated earlier, when things turn south we will be asked/told to give up and help out.

We still might be among the best paid but for how long? We are trending downwards while the rest of the world hauls us in.

Oh and since when is Cathay happy to be equals with the rest of the world. I thought we invented flying and that's why we were paid more!!!!:ok:

W2

pleb88

9th Oct 2007, 06:26

You guys aren't going to the sandpit := Do your homework! Concentrate on improving the situation not running away from it.

Yes. The HKAOA leadership have failed. It was predictable because they didn't follow the rules:

1. The President should not be involved with negotiations. Failed.
2. Have a mandate and keep the GC informed or they might not support your deal. Failed.
3. Have credibility. Don't include those who lack judgment
4. Do have a lever and use it or else you will get cornered into what they want...CoS08. Failed.
5. Don't give rostering productivity (RP07) on the promise of talks on a payrise. You'll end up giving the productivity (RP07) and get just that ... "talks" on a payrise. Failed.

But most importantly; don't ever give up on fellow negotiators, Committee and 49er types who supported the cause and were unfairly terminated by management for it. You did, and as a result, you will be forever plagued by the inept and weak as your HKAOA leaders.

What to do about it? For a start, close the door on the AOA. It's not a union; you need a proper union, some smarts and plenty of resolve if you want to sort this management.

Please stop pretending that the grass is greener in Dubai; for starters, there is none.

whatdoesthisbuttondo

9th Oct 2007, 06:47

I think those of you who think CX still have anywhere near the best Ts and Cs need to do a bit of research.

Saturn

9th Oct 2007, 06:55

Unfortunatley a large company like CX does NOT answer to its employees but its banks, creditors, parent(Swire) etc.. They give us what they want nothing more nothing less. It does no good to let it bother you as this is the way of most large companies. Look again at what is going on in the US. Employees lost everything and now managment is rewarding themselves handsomely. Addtionally, if in tough times CX comes to us and takes away so will other carriers. I am not trying to say that this is right but I just cannot let it affect my life anymore. It is just a job. I have better things to worry and think about and quite frankly the pay is OK, the check is ontime, and my rosters are OK. Imagine having to be on that 3rd floor having to think about all this stuff day to day,Yikes! We really don't have it that bad. EK is NOT a better place to be. Not saying it isn't a good airline it just isn't better than CX.

Sqwak7700

9th Oct 2007, 09:00

HEy, did any of you guys notice that they changed the HK payscale name to "Asian Pay scale"? Any theories on why they did that? I know it is very subtle, but what might be their reasoning for that?

I can't believe they are actually implementing a paycut in the US. I would have thought that it would at least be equal to current pay. Oh well, I guess they aren't really having problems attracting guys in NA. It is a pretty substantial paycut when you consider that they have lobed off the last 4 YEARS OF THE SFO SCALE!!! And that is where you will be with retirement at 65!! :ugh:

badairsucker

9th Oct 2007, 10:40

Just imagine what awaits us in any future downturn in business

Good point.

A question for you guys...

If we had another big downturn, say another SARS, considering what the management think of us in this pathetic COS08 pay rise, would you take unpaid leave like we did in 2003???

CYRILJGROOVE

9th Oct 2007, 10:55

The moderator got you last time for your foul posts under numerous handles re NC, how long will it take for you to get banned again you POS. Former FAILED AOA leadership whom quit are the lowest form of life. Plenty of folks know who you are and your legal problem is the good old US of A, so when you get tanked and start posting, think twice because you do your reputation no good at all.

Westcoastcapt

9th Oct 2007, 14:38

Good morning Gents,

Everyone just sit back and take a deep breath. No, it is not as bad as you think. For many of us, it is solely an imposed meagre payrise. They haven't imposed a new contract on you, just a payrise. And, the opportunity to stay past 55 on the present pay scale.

Remember, CX cannot impose a new contract on you unless you sign and agree. Yes, the new joiners will join under COS 08.

If you are smart, you will take an objective look around and see if there is something better out there. And if there is, then you will take it. CX will only respond if people choose to leave. However, if you are like many of the people on this forum, you will rant and rave, ......and then do absolutely nothing.

Think for yourself and don't listen to the spin. If you are unhappy leave. You are doing no one any favours by staying, especially yourself. Nuff said!!!

Waterskier

9th Oct 2007, 15:21

What is the new UFO payscale for NA?

Mantaray

9th Oct 2007, 18:20

So lets get this right, if you feel you must work past 55 and you are not in C&T and you dont want to fly rubber dog #%&@ out of Hong Kong then you have to take a basing, Right!!
Well it seems to me that all of the 27 available slots for CNs in the current round of basings have been oversubscribed.
So if what will happen when guys who fall into the above category reach 55 and apply for a basing only to be told sorry all the slots are gone or there are none available in your home country (port).
Seems like there will be no chance for a basing for most of us for a long time now.

What happened to the pay rise in 2009 (we seem to have lost it completely) and the HDP being provident fundable.:confused:

teedub

9th Oct 2007, 21:02

As predicted the new terms imposed involve a paltry raise based on OUR fantastic profits etc etc...Certainly stings and makes us all mad...But much wisdom has been thoughfuly posted regarding EK and greener fields...More for the benefit of NA types there is a choice to be made, especially for recent joiners, between CX and say UPS/FEX, recall (AA) (well US air also if you're mad enough and other ex-legacy folk who I'm not readily aware of).

In a sense its a spot of online therapy (pardon the self obsessivness) but I hope it will generate the serious thought needed before/if one leaves CX.

Managment:

CX Excellent at generating PROFITS. Maintains GROWTH and EXPANSION. Clearly keeps costs under control. STRONG. Restricted essentially only by market forces (yawn! but true).
Staffed by Swire types who are well trained and groomed for certain spots/missions.

NA Generally not good at generating profits (hey I'm just looking a the score card not the rules of the game!). REDUCED fleets in many instances and cut expansion plans until very recently (Delta perhaps an exception to the rule). Limited but at times uses devistatingly obtuse powers to enforce conditions due to strong union/legal/federal forces. Staffed by a mix of longtime industry types and "in & out" types looking to raid the store (stock options, parachute clauses etc)

Pay (salary)

CX Not bad and AN INCREASE not a pay cut! Standard with other airlines around the globe and on the pax fleet more than ave legacy carriers (assuming you are not a 10y AA furloughe and Cat U'd at CX). 13 month if in HK. Not able to manipulate roster to increase credit hours at will. PX'ing utilized to avoid overtime.

NA Has increased over last couple of years but still deeply cut due post 9/11 givebacks. UPS & FEX are out on their own (if you can stomach the first year re UPS). Ability to manipulate schedule and thus increase salary (to a point...contract rules etc). Several contracts up for negotiation over next 6 months.

Schedules/Rosters

CX Very little flexiblilty to personally alter days off/trips/overnights/etc. Limited joker days.
No open time or drop trip ability. No bonus for years served (ie seniority). No bidding per se.
Aside the howls of the NA Freighter caps many rosters provide significant days off in a row and vacation block often padded with G days. Little use of crew on A days (watch now I'll get hauled out of bed at 6am next A day and 1000 miles away!!). Dont have to spent three days figuring out your bid!

NA Seniority based so if you're at the bottom enjoy your crashpad/phone going off at 5am on Christmas eve!. With seniority! THERE IS A GOD!

Per Diem

CX CASH IS KING...lets hope when CX goes on shore the Cash won't get counted!

NA 52 bucks a day a month later (plus intl overide in somecases but not much more).

Training/Upgrade

CX Strange place! Graveyard for undesirables (politically & technically speaking). Your are never off probation. Upgrade subject to a combination of ability/politics/who you get! etc.
Captains start at year 1 payscale. ERAS (5 for concept 1 for application)!

NA You pass or you fail S or U...simple! Seniority rules the roost so wait 10 years for a command somewhere (but then go in at year 11 pay!!)..Once off probation generally politics will not affect your sim/line experiences. Less pedantic with proceedures. Focus more on real issues (I feel...)

Lifestyle

CX Oportunity to move to HK and make big bucks as an expat....apt, low tax rate, housing allowance (not to much US tax to pay for off shore), great city (don't inhale though). Not exactly sure how new COS will effect basings but opp to live in home country (and others depending on how onshore stuff works re immigration etc). New A/C, great maintainance, Excellent facilities at CX City! 6 weeks vacation. Great Medical. Schooling. Safe city (crime wise HK).

NA Home is home. Live anywhere and commute JUMPSEAT!!!!!!!!!!!. Clean Air (relative)
Less vacation but easy to bid days off around it to obtain equitable time off.

Job Security

CX Very Good unless you do something or someone wrong

NA Shakey especially if the USA invades (---- fill in the gap) an other 9/11 etc etc etc

Pension

CX 15.5%....ends when you leave...can't be stolen (sorry defaulted is the PC word from the courthouse...my apologies your honor)

NA Gamble as to whether you'll get a good one (A's & B's funds) till you croak or have the lot stolen (oops there I go again...sorry judge)

Union/Future Contracts/Labor law

CX Hence the posting....IMHO its not AOA's fault...HK law is LAW....see what happens when CX goes on shore in the US of A!

NA ALPA (wash your mouth out son!) Teamsters, APA, UPS etc etc....love em or like em its why your granddaddy got sundays off from the pit face. Protected by strong labor laws enforcible in US courts.

Perhaps I'll just wait for the circus to some into town and go visit Mdme Zelda and ask her to gaze into her crystal ball for the right answer. Question is do I brush her palm with a greenback or a redback note?

Real question might be if you had a million dollars or so and didn't have to fly where would you wanna be? hmmmmm!

To all you non NA folks sorry for the splurge but hope it adds somewhat to your thought process.............

Sqwak7700

9th Oct 2007, 21:35

Real question might be if you had a million dollars or so and didn't have to fly where would you wanna be? hmmmmm!

...I tell you what I'd do man...two chicks at the same time.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :ok:

Waterskier

9th Oct 2007, 22:59

This is probably for NC... I was wondering if someone could compare three scenarios in terms of total salary (excluding HDP, housing, Provident)...

First (under COS 99) join as an SO for 3 years, then upgrade to FO on a US base for years 4-10 as an FO.

Second (under COS 99) join as a Freighter FO for 3 years, then switch to US Based Pax FO for years 4-10 as an FO.

Third (under COS 08) join as a US based unified FO for years 1-10.

How much will COS 08 reduce salary (or does it)? While the new UFO reduces the passenger scale, normally it would take 3 years to get to Passenger scale (either as an SO or freighter FO). How do years 4-10 of the UFO compare with the current passenger scales?

T-bone

10th Oct 2007, 01:11

The big thing for me....basings. Age 65 on the base will mean NO command basings available for at least 10 to 15 years, maybe longer, as there are some pretty young guys on the bases. That puts me in HK for my whole career!!!

Fenwicksgirl

10th Oct 2007, 02:20

T-Bone, my thoughts exactly. I think this CoS will have two effects. Forget about the money, no oone will leave because of that. The basing issue which i for one will be affected by and the retirement issue for S.Os and junior F.Os.
I love Hong Kong but i had an exit plan (base) in a few years, but alas, no more.
My Yarpie mates who have lots of mates at Emirates, are now looking there as their commands have now been extended by a number of years.
Thank god for options in our industry now.
Whinge all we want guys but nothing will change until we vote with our feet, just ask at Gulf Air!!!

TWINGLOBES

10th Oct 2007, 02:30

Bohica!!!!

Sike

10th Oct 2007, 03:33

Second (under COS 99) join as a Freighter FO for 3 years, then switch to US Based Pax FO for years 4-10 as an FO.

Third (under COS 08) join as a US based unified FO for years 1-10.Under the previous version of COS '08 which included U.S. freighter scale increases of 3% in both '08 and '09, I calculated that you would make approximately $11,500 USD more in total over ten years if you were to stay on the freighter scale initially and then transfer to the current pax scale. My assumption was a transfer to the pax scale at the 3.5 year mark. However, with a 3% raise to the freighter pay in '08 only (can someone verify this?), it's probably just a wash now. On the UFO scale, you would make a little more money up front. With compounded interest, etc. you could potentially make more over the 10 year period.

My question is, can someone who is currently on the freighter scale jump over to the UFO scale and fly pax immediately? In the short run, this would provide significant benefit to my roster. But, after the 3.5 year mark, I would be stuck with freighter flying and would not have the beautiful NA pax only roster that exists now. However, if you are a stickler for diversity in flying, the UFO option could make things a bit more interesting.

SikeMo

geh065

10th Oct 2007, 05:05

So for HKG based officers, are they eligible for bypass pay when someone on a basing and COS08 goes beyond 55?

Busbert

10th Oct 2007, 05:38

You can always tell when a CX aircraft has arrived.
Because the deafening whining noise continues even after the engines have been shut down.
:)

Kahuna Driver

10th Oct 2007, 06:17

What I'd really like to know is why the company went ahead and did this.
I thought 1992 had passed already.:confused:
Maybe they're tired of seeing all those EK aircraft parked in the desert.

Numero Crunchero

10th Oct 2007, 07:25

bobrun,
my understanding is that anyone going on a base from next year will be on CoS08 - well, once on-shoring for each base occurs. I think UK is first in Apr08.

slapfaan
We asked for in excess of 30+%. Sounds like a lot until you realise that it was to cover from Jul01-Jul10. It worked out to be about 3% a year. A lion may roar and growl, but the ringmaster has the chair and whip.

waterskier
I am not sure of your situation but the 3 choices you suggested are not possible for one person. You are either on CoS99 or CoS08.

If you are on a base now you can stay on CoS99 or move onto CoS08. If you are in HKG now you will have to go onto CoS08 to get a base in future. If you are joining CX after 1/1/08 you will be on the new improved CoS!

Option 2 pays the most and is about 2.4%(nominal, not NPV) better than option 3. Option 1 was less 3 by 5% or so.

QF and CX have similar command times now. QF pays more over a career vs HKG based or Aus based pilots. EK has command time a decade faster than CX/QF. An EK career will have you around 30% better off, after tax, over 10 years. QF earnings will be over 24.6% higher than CX equivalent after 10 years...actually it will be higher than that as you will have to take UFO08 Aus based salary in future and I haven't got the lastest QF EBA figures.

If you want command - look at EK. If you want money look at QF or EK. If you want industrial protection (compared to EK/CX) join QF. If you love zoological maths "RA65 will ACCELERATE your time to command" then join CX.

Caveat Emptor!

Mach75

10th Oct 2007, 07:43

It's fairly easy to read the writting on the wall as to what is going to happen to the availability of basings for captains with the new CoS but is this going to have a negative impact on the availability of FO vacancies as well?
My fear is that with RA65 a lot of F/O's who've been sticking it out in Hong Kong waiting for their command will now have their command delayed so significantly that they'll just say "screw it" & flock to the bases. Couple that with the fact that CX will be hiring DEFO's onto the pax fleet and the fact that new DEFO joiners will have to remain on a base for 4 years before transferring to Hong Kong and I think we may see zero base vacancies for any rank in the near future.

Anyone care to disagree with me?

Numero Crunchero

10th Oct 2007, 07:52

Pleb 88
"1. The President should not be involved with negotiations. Failed.
2. Have a mandate and keep the GC informed or they might not support your deal. Failed.
3. Have credibility. Don't include those who lack judgment
4. Do have a lever and use it or else you will get cornered into what they want...CoS08. Failed.
5. Don't give rostering productivity (RP07) on the promise of talks on a payrise. You'll end up giving the productivity (RP07) and get just that ... "talks" on a payrise. Failed.

But most importantly; don't ever give up on fellow negotiators, Committee and 49er types who supported the cause and were unfairly terminated by management for it. You did, and as a result, you will be forever plagued by the inept and weak as your HKAOA leaders."

Interesting!
The previous 4 AOA presidents also failed rule 1.
Rule 2, from personal observation, this negotiation was run exactly like 2001 - from a negotiators/GC persepective so Nigel 'failed' too!
Rule 3. Well 4 out of 7 negotiators were fired in 2001 - one in particular was infamous for going sick every xmas/Rugby 7s and whenever else the whim took him. So I guess Nigel 'failed' again for allowing him to be a negotiator!
Rule 4. We had a lever in 1999 and 2001 and we ended up getting almost EXACTLY what the company wanted to give us! We had no lever in 2007.
Rule 5. We did not offer any productivity in 2007 or in RP07. Simple maths (yet again). Under 5-4-3 you can achieve almost 3.5 ULH patterns a month - that equates to 3.5*25=87.5hrs a month - so the 900hrs a year target is easily achieveable. On the bus, and soon the 777, the mix of ULH and short haul will ensure that 3 or 4 days off would have been given between long haul and regional flying. So please, without hyperbole, explain the productivity that we 'gave up' in RP07 or negs07??????

As to your last point, I have worked with 3 AOA presidents and numerous other AOA 'leaders'. Two types of people are attracted to positions of influence....those wanting the kudos and those that are selfless and charitable. ST is one of the most honest, selfless people I have ever met. ND had a personal axe to grind, ST does not. I trust ST implicitly although I often disagree with him - but then thats democracy for you.

Mr. Bloggs

10th Oct 2007, 08:27

Oh NC, you are going to hurt Nick's feelings. You know he is one of those sensitive political types.:mad:

Pleb88, I see you deleted some of your post on item number 3. Yes and I agree it is hard to have creditability when everyone knows he screwed his best friends wife. You should have left it up. Oh well, who will know.:}

Me thinks the AOA is truly finished. Can someone give me a reason to stay in. Yes I know the part about IFALPA coming to my rescue in I crash. If I do I correctly I don't have to worry about.:}:} Any other reasons, I really can't think of any.:confused:

We don't need anyone to negotiate for us it just gets imposed. Pilots are running scared and can't even enforce their own contract. Walker acts with impunity and the pilots and AOA let him do it. I guess we get what we deserve.:confused:

Going to be a long hard road for the younger blokes.:{

NC, the new COS will have 5 years loss of license paid for by CX. That will save some HK pesos instead of paying Top cover. NC, how does that work. Will you get paid 5 years from CX as a lump sum and then receive 5 years from Top cover in monthly installments.:ok:

Is there any legal case the AOA can take? I am sure you will see pilots start to bail if the AOA sits by. Can't say I not thinking about it.:sad:

Don't we have a COS and a basing agreement. Why do pilots going on a base have to sign COS 08? I am sure COS 99 has basing policies and the permanent basing agreement.:ok:

So the basings will now be given to the senior pilots and DEFO's, so I think the idea of receiving a base will only get more difficult. So I assume the idea is to get a base now and hold onto it. Works well with CX having a skeleton crew in Hong Kong and having the bases do most of the work. Longer duty cycles coming I presume. We will see this with the new ATFL's being imposed.:{

By the way, who is negotiating the new AFTL's, the same group that negotiated the last deal? Dare I say it, but where is Warham when you need him. Maybe the CPU will take legal action. Set myself up for some abuse here me thinks.:D

What will the pilots do, sit by and just let it happen? Think I know the answer to that one. I am sure it will come down to 'it does not affect me'.:(

Saturn

10th Oct 2007, 09:22

I read on one of the AOA forums about recalling the President of the AOA.

Mach75

10th Oct 2007, 09:22

NC, Is it your understanding that anyone transferring to a base from Hong Kong will also have to accept the new Unified Salary? I can't find any reference to this in the GMA update.
What I do find is that it states that once a base goes On-shore the CoS will be ammended only to the extent to comply with local labour laws. "This will not involve any degradation of conditions".
I am not able to find any reference to being required to transfer onto the Unified Salary - If I'm overlooking something please let me now.

Kane Toed

10th Oct 2007, 09:28

Mach75 saidI can't find any reference to this in the GMA updateAgreed totally - please tell me if i'm wrong.

19weeler

10th Oct 2007, 10:03

NC, You are PATHETIC!

Always have been, and always will be.

It is because of people like you and ST(and of course a membership that resembles a bowl of green jello) that the "aoa" is in the shape it is in today!!

ST has lied to my face many times about many very important issues(MG even more).
ND has never lied to me.

Funny you criticize a fellow comittee member for reporting sick when you were working on your G days during contract compliance!!!!

Very sad!:yuk:

BusyB

10th Oct 2007, 10:33

Extremely well said NC:ok:

Emphysemic

10th Oct 2007, 13:23

Sounds like you guys could do with a healthy dose of Contract Compliance at the very least.... It IS working (all be it ) slowly across the road...:ok:

Numero Crunchero

10th Oct 2007, 15:46

Mr Bloggs,
ok if you want to slander, get the facts straight.
Now can we get on with the main thrust of this thread???

As to your question ref LoL - all that has happened is that they have extended LoL till 60, as per the current ASL contract. LoL and LoI are two different beasts so as usual we are not getting anything for free.

19weeler
what can I say? I have worked with both men and I trust ST. ND was on a personal revenge agenda and would not be swayed from his course regardless of membership angst. Under his 'reign' we went from 95% membership to below 50%. SInce ST has taken over I believe we are now back over 60%.

I don't remember working any G days or answering the phone during contract compliance but since you say I did, I must have. Please tell me what other atrocities I am responsible for.

Now onto serious questions....

Mach75/Kane toed
I haven't read the fine print but my understanding is this....since you are both current employees(ie CoS99) you can elect to go on a base but you will have to transfer over to CoS08 at some stage. This will mean no bypass pay for anyone extending 55-64. You will have a choice between receiving CoS99or CoS08(ie UFO) based salary. It varies from base to base but simply put, CoS99 is much higher for the first 4 years, then UFO is higher, then both scales remain close around the 7-10 year mark.

In the Aus basing case, you would be $100,000+ worse off switching over to UFO scale taking a base. You can do say 3-4 years on the base on CoS99 salary (but CoS08 conditions) then switch over to UFO scales if you wish. Once you switch to UFO scales you cannot switch back though.

My advice(with all the usual disclaimers) is if you must/want/need to take a base as an FO, go on CoS99 salary scales. You will have 3-4 years to work out whether it is worth switching to UFO scales at year 5.

As a general warning....RA65 will mean your career earnings(till 55) are such that you will have to work 2-4 more years just to recover lost earnings. If you receive full bypass pay, that loss is ameliorated such that you 'only' have to work an extra year or so to break even financially on the loss that RA65 will cause you.

clear as mud?

AAIGUY

10th Oct 2007, 16:51

Just strike already.

Dragon69

10th Oct 2007, 17:21

"Two types of people are attracted to positions of influence....those wanting the kudos and those that are selfless and charitable. ST is one of the most honest, selfless people I have ever met."

Funny!

"Rule 5. We did not offer any productivity in 2007 or in RP07. Simple maths (yet again). Under 5-4-3 you can achieve almost 3.5 ULH patterns a month - that equates to 3.5*25=87.5hrs a month - so the 900hrs a year target is easily achieveable."

Even funnier!

Idiot!

The Wraith

10th Oct 2007, 17:55

I almost find it hard to believe that Cathay used to be THE airline to work for...
Hopefully in years to come when Cathay is struggling to find anyone who wants to work for a 4th rate airline and breathe toxic fumes every day the present management will be recognised for the egotistical and arrogant fools they are.....or maybe not. Frankly, who cares? By then it will be too late and it will take years to rebuild the airline's once proud reputation.
Two guys just quit the day they were signed off on the 400....nice!! Freighter guys turning the job down before they even arrive..... If Management are telling us that there is no problem recruiting I would suggest they were being very imaginitive with the truth.
I giggle myself silly when I remember that I once thought this was a career airline....and lets not even get started on the "training"!!
The grass is definitely not always greener elsewhere, but just to go somewhere where there aren't so many snakes in the grass would be a start. EasyJet have changed their management and now have a well paid, happy and motivated workforce. Oasis appear to have started that way from the very beginning and may they go from strength to strength.
Yes, it is definitely time to look for a happier place, if not necessarily as well paid.
I'm off to do just that. Funnily, I don't think I'm alone......

:(

SFGDOG

10th Oct 2007, 18:20

I wonder how much our glorious leaders have really thought about this idea of On-Shore Basing Companies. It will be very interesting if the based Pilot's decide to join a national trade union like the TWU in Oz or something similar. Just imagine:

Don't like the roster.
Don't like the lack of an inflation based pay rises.
Don't like an unfair dismissal.
Don't like the fact that your colleague doing the same job is payed according to a higher pay scale.
Would like something like a simple car park at your base airport, or
Don't like an intimidation based sickness scheme.

Call in the TWU official responsible for your workplace and send him off to the On-shore company to sort it out. Things like protected industrial action come into play for the first time for CX Pilots, similar to what is ocurring with NJS in OZ right now. All the local industrial laws will apply. With a Labor government likely to be in power in OZ soon, a powerful union would have top cover to sort out and if needs be, shutdown the local operations for a period of time, of a wealthy international company in order to protect it's new members.

Just food for thought????

montz

10th Oct 2007, 18:34

Cathay Pacific. Now you're really flying. (Soon you won't be, however.) :E

CYRILJGROOVE

10th Oct 2007, 20:43

Probably a case "of toooo much information" NChttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/46.gif

Mr. Bloggs

11th Oct 2007, 01:26

Ha Ha Ha. What do you do there in Incestuous Bay? I was thinking of the other guy not you but thanks for letting us all know how rampant is it over there. Now that’s funny. Can we start a different thread on that alone? It would be interesting indeed.:ok::ok:

IMHO in ND’s reign we had 95% of the membership with 94% voting for industrial action: most knowing they will not carry it out. When time came to carry it out, most quit the AOA. For whatever reason they did not have the backbone. Some claimed financial, fear, and ND was an industrial terrorist. Well I guess if you stand up for yourself you are an industrial terrorist. In the end, those that deserted were very happy with their package. Just wish they would have told the rest but then again it's the backbone thingy.:(:yuk::*

Anyway back to the topic.

So loss of license is still only two years of salary but increased by 5 years to age 60 instead of age 55. Bit misleading in the GMA’s post but that is expected.

Is it possible that the On-shoring is a red herring? Why does someone need to transfer to COS 08 when taking a base? We have provisions in COS 99 and the permanent basing agreement? I think the GMA will have you sign COS 08 by telling you have to sign it. As soon as you sign he’s got you. You signed it voluntarily.:*

The GMA is giving his opinion that you don’t have a choice and you do under contract law.:mad::mad:

I tend to believe the DFO, time to command will decrease with RA65, and I will have all this money in my PF when I retire because I will work longer. He doesn’t lie. Sorry, don't have a smiley for him.

Don’t think local labor laws with protect you with this lot. “We have lost confidence in your ability”; you received three 2’s on your last PC, which was completed by the Flying Training Manager or Chief Pilot. You will be D&G’d and your appeal will have similar results with the GMA. Here is your 3 months.:eek::eek:

Don’t think the guys in other base areas with help you. What will the unions do? We had unfair dismissals before and nothing was done. Don’t expect it to change in the future.:{

Hope the GC is willing to do something, if not it’s curtains for the AOA.:ouch:

Dare I say it, “time to move to the CPU”? Well I guess members, non-members and the company will label you an Industrialist Terrorist. It will be a Captains only union then, what am I thinking……………………:E

We will never increase our COS; we are struggling just to hang onto what we have. Seems that some have just accepted it. I assume it does not affect them as they are on a good package. So screw the new pilots going on a base with the new Unified pay scale. Yep, I’m OK. Take a look around young fella, not much better out there so may as well accept it.:=:=

Hellenic aviator

11th Oct 2007, 02:42

Is it possible that the On-shoring is a red herring? Why does someone need to transfer to COS 08 when taking a base? We have provisions in COS 99 and the permanent basing agreement? I think the GMA will have you sign COS 08 by telling you have to sign it. As soon as you sign he’s got you. You signed it voluntarily.
The GMA is giving his opinion that you don’t have a choice and you do under contract law.

Regarding the GMA giving opinion as Company Policy, I 'ran this by' a couple of solicitor mates who specialise in Contractual Law. Interestingly enough, if someone was to sign CoS'08 just because "you have to" without any specific reference to "Vol. this, Section that, Paragraph (1), subparagraph (f)" etc., is grounds to possibly convince a jury of falsifying, misrepresenting and possible intent of deceiving an employee.
So the Company has big pockets - does that justify Kim Jong Phil from deceiving us ? IMHO, no it doesn't. :=:=

Numero Crunchero

11th Oct 2007, 03:26

sirhcttarp
it will add time to command - if the world continues going as it is now it will add about 3-4years to command time for a new joiner. If we got a fair few freighters and keep the freighter/pax CN pay differential then it will add another year or two to command time for pax only FOs.

Sorry cyril, my tolerance of people playing the man instead of the ball has been stretched too far.

Now, back to the questions.

Hellenic,
for quite a while CX has been offering extensions to those approaching 55. This has been in part due to expansion and in (major) part due to avoiding any potential age discrimination. CoS99 clearly states RA55. CoS08 allows for RA65.

CX couldn't just offer RA65 without catches.
You can't have all your expat benefits after 55 - why?
You can't have bypass pay for 55-64yo extendees - why?

If you are an SO and sign over you will waive well over $1million HK in bypass pay.

There is one huge benefit of the current state of play. People are looking around and realising that money isn't everything....and in the CX case, money isn't anything(for anyone who joined in this millennium).

For an Aussie looking for work now...he can look at joining CX at $5K aussie a month if he/she lives in HKG(SO) or $7.5K a month if he/she joins as a DEFO. And based on current projections you don't have to worry about doing a scary command course till the far side of 2020 if you join the 'brush wing' so there's another plus.

If I was starting out now I would have QF first, then Virgin intl, then EK. CX offers far less money, longer command time and an unhealthy living environment, in case you decide to actually have a family!

ABCX

cxflyer

11th Oct 2007, 06:16

After 19 years I guess nothing sould really surprise me. For thos with less T.I. her is a review of the various "events" of the past 19 years.
The first few years was great. Then our fearless leader R. Eddington decieded that our Vol1 and CoS needed to be "cleaned up" a bit. Just a "review" to ensure evrything was well presented. :uhoh: This led to the infamous "commitment days" :sad: For this pleasure we were gathered at a downtown hotel and the big brass baffled us with charts showing cash cover and various horrendous senarios all of which ended with the company broke and us out of work. :confused: B Scales were announced, and against the AOA's recommendations were brought in, and of course people came. :ugh: Then the first imposed deal. While sitting in my cockpit at the gate in Paris just minutes from pushing back, a ground staffer ran in with a personalized package for each crew member. Basically sign or never get a base, no raise etc etc. It wasn't too long after that that CX wanted to unilaterally rip up the signed basings agreement. Off to court we went...and the survey said........ binding in HONOUR only, the deal was nixed.:confused: Next came another "review" of our CoS. While sitting at home a FEDEX package was delivered to each of us. Sign by... or quit. It was then time to make the frieghters more "profitable" Keep it in house we said, oh no better to be a separate company, we can hire direct to the left seat easy. After a misserable year or so of that positions were offered to CX pilots, some jumped ( no comment on that). This still didnt reall help. Soon the company had a great idea. Lets bring it back into CX, keep it "in house". A "negotiated deal" saw my salary reduce by 22% and my monthly hours increase and my 13th month dissapear, just whos side the AOA's negotiators were on I don't know, not mine.
The 49er fiasco was next when the company fired , without due process, a number of our colleagues. We as a group,(AOA) collected commitments from members to help the 49ers. This cost each of us a lot of money, but it was something we had to do. sadly, I saw several mebers, mebers that had voted FOR the showdown that resulted in the firings, quit because they "couldn't afford" the extra dues....thanks a lot you F$%%$%# ers. We then saw the company go on a tear, failing numerous command candidates. A number so far beyond any statistical probability as to render it laughable. And so we arrive here, today. the company is making absoulte buckets of money, (good for them), but we see 0% increase, ok 3% for some and they want us to bail them out of their frieghter mess...for nothing. Its been quite the ride. Through all of this I still mostly enjoy the job, and the money, but I don't understand why people still come if they have other options. And to think all of this started with just a bit of house cleaning.:{

Mr. Bloggs

11th Oct 2007, 06:34

HA, time to get your solicitor mates to give the AOA office a call.:ok:

NC, I will take you up on that last request if you are up for it. Please PM me.:ok:

Cpt. Underpants

11th Oct 2007, 07:48

PRICELESS

700 sq ft Apartment In DB: HKD3.8 Million
http://dbowman.com/photos/hongkong/gallery/img/IMG_1036.JPG

Golf Cart: HKD750 000
http://www.ancogolfcars.com/images/club_ani.gif

Emphysema Treatment For The Kids: HKD3.0 Million
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/hk_pollution_0326.jpg

ANOTHER IMPOSED CONTRACT

PRICELESS

badairsucker

11th Oct 2007, 11:32

Capt,

That golf cart is in far too good condition!!!!

ChairmanBoysClub

11th Oct 2007, 14:19

Yes I've decided to give my SELF a payrise. By quitting the AoA I will get another 1% more. Show some teeth you bunch or a lot shall follow. Face the fact.

Westcoastcapt

11th Oct 2007, 14:50

Good morning everyone,

I think CXflyer has given an excellent overview of the events of the last few years. Given the events, I think it is an excellent indication of what we can look forward to, and it isn't pretty.

The sole reason that our pay and benefits have eroded over the years is because pilots keep coming to CX to do our jobs at lesser pay. It started with the B scale and if you take a peek in the Headland, it is full off of new joiners willing to accept, what are we at, an H scale.

CX couldn't care less if you are unhappy in your job, just as long as you are going to work. He will of course take notice, if you leave and go elsewhere. Dakotas, the Lion Rock are full of whining pilots who do nothing, just whine.

Probably the biggest reason the AOA hasn't been able to win anything at the bargaining table is because we are all willing to take from one group to achieve something for another. The B scales want to whittle down A scales, yet they joined saying they would do our job for less. ASL did the same thing to the B scales. The bases lost the 13th month for a meagre gain for the HKG pilots. I could go on but I think you get the message.

The important thing is to think for yourself, don't be swayed by the outspoken halfwit beside you. It has been my experience that they are the first to turn and run. If you see a better offer out there, take it, otherwise quit whining. Moreover, tell the AOA what you want and hold them to account.

Nuff said!

Numero Crunchero

11th Oct 2007, 15:07

It is very easy and somewhat expected that we will look to blame other groups amongst us for our lack of personal financial progress. The truth is we are run by an organisation that uses phrases like CRM and HRM the same way I jumble up the letters when I play scrabble - purely for point scoring.

We work in a 3rd world country with 3rd world environment with 3rd world taxes in a 1st world company taking advantage of 3rd world labour protections.

The 'imposed' payrises equate to around 1 - 1.5% of our fuel burn - that should put into perspective how much effort and thought has gone into this payrise imposition. Fuel costs have gone up several hundred % over the last few years....the salary/PF cost per pilot has gone down!

We are just a cost item on the ledger...nothing more.

2 cents

11th Oct 2007, 15:13

westcoastcapt,

Good morning to you.

Let's see. You're on a YVR base, making CDN$, and you've just been given 10 more years on A scale.

No wonder you're not whining!!

A bit of a win for a select few isn't it? And he's sick of hearing the rest of us whine... :yuk:

Westcoastcapt

11th Oct 2007, 16:03

Back to you 2 Cents,

I don't recall CX having obligatory service, so may I ask why did you join at lesser pay. Me thinks you are part of the problem.

simplex

11th Oct 2007, 17:33

Pleb88: "Have credibility. Don't include those who lack judgment"

NC: get the facts straight. His best friend is a sim instructor
NC: with CX and slept with her before I did.

Hmm ... well that's Ok then?
Apparently your point is made Pleb.
The Committee has an idiot.

Mr. Bloggs

11th Oct 2007, 23:19

West Coaster, you just trying to wind me up aren’t you.:hmm:

First of all grow some balls, you allowed B Scale to come in the first place. Didn’t you get a raise for it? If YOU didn’t allow this to come in, we would not have this problem.:mad::mad:
Your group would not stand up to CX. CX said wow, pilots are spineless. Let’s keep trying them on, and they did. It didn't affect me attitude.:D:D

Same as your A Scale brothers helped train the ASL pilots and it’s the ASL pilots fault. So when the new joiner F/O’s arrive on the new Unified pay scale, it is their fault because WE don’t have the balls.:ok:

Typical of your group.:mad:

cpdude

11th Oct 2007, 23:24

Play time is over children now lets start to focus on the schoolyard bully and not each other!:ok:

Westcoastcapt

12th Oct 2007, 03:27

Mr Bloggs,

Rather than take personal shots I suggest you stick with the real issues.

What do you mean we allowed the B scale to come. That is probably the most ludicrous statement I have ever heard. What do you suggest we should have done. Stood at the airport, physically grabbed you and sent you back to your home port.

Using the same profound logic, one could say that you allowed ASL to form or you let CX hire DEFO's. The Headland is full of new hires ready to do your job at even lesser pay. On my next trip over hopefully I'll see you in the lobby, ready to wrestle them to the floor and then out the door, never to be seen again.

It is this same elementary level of thinking that is allowing this mess in the first place. So responding to your opening remark, if your balls are tied to your use of logic, then me thinks........

Fenwicksgirl

12th Oct 2007, 04:51

Well once again a post has turned into a slagging match b/w pilots. The company would love this stuff, well done guys. So when our union seeks us to stand together to fight the company they can count on us........yeah right!!! Stop blaming others, it is our own fault and by the looks of things, it aint changing soon!

Iwannahumpalot

12th Oct 2007, 07:43

Hey Guys,

I just wanted to send this out in the hope that some of our committee members might just by accident see it and hopefully they may start to do what is demanded of them. I know that NC is doing the best that he can and we seem to always dump everything on him, and he is only one of the group..and getting onto the aoa forum, well thats moderated and so if they dont like what i type it doesnt go online so i guess this is a good medium, if only more of the comittee would take a look here..

I just wanted to know why the communication from the AOA is almost non-existant? We used to get lots of good comms a while back but recently i hardly see jack from them, except the normal bs from ST..sorry but i dont trust that guy as far as i can spit!! And could we possibly be more privy to what you guys are actually thinking about when you go forth to negotiate for us? And i would pay a little extra to get some proper and professional negotiators to help us get what we are really worth. Our guys tried but it hasnt worked so why cant we look at other options here? Maybe we could take the A scale salary that we pay JF and put that towards our negotiator kitty?

This post i understand isnt quite inline with this thread but it sort of is as well...hope that we can all start to smile one of these days, remember when you used to enjoy going to work? THey were the good ol' days, i am sure alot of you will say that will never happen again, and maybe thats true but as that famous dude said, years ago..."I have a dream, that all pilots will be paid a fair and respectful wage, that pilots will work overtime and not want to be paid for it, where pilots will do all they can to minimise costs to the company"..M.L.King...

Numero Crunchero

12th Oct 2007, 08:25

My 2 cents worth.
I don't believe that 'professional' negotiators would make any difference as it is not an IQ/logic contest. If it was we would win hands down every negotiation. It is about power. We have no power as we have no weapon other than reason. We demonstrated that several airlines from our source countries earn more and have received greater payrises but at the end of negs they just ignored that and came up with their predetermined figures.

Having said all that, I don't think anyone on the GC has any objection with professional negotiators. I don't think CX will negotiate with non pilots though.

The new GC has been sorting out what we collectively think is the best way forward. Unfortunately this has resulted in an apparent comms blackout but is just the natural consequence of seeking consensus amongst 19people before publicly transmitting.

For what its worth I trust ST - I couldn't work for him if I didn't! It is difficult to write something that represents the disparate views amongst the membership and the GC.

We went in asking for a reasonable payrise - just to cover some CoL changes and exchange rate losses. We asked for in excess of 30%(Jul 01-Jul10) and we got 3% imposed instead. EK has had 41% in payrises over the last 5 years and we have had......

JF's salary is SFO B scale - and thats after 15 years of service.

Our thoughts now....well we have a wide cross section of pilots covering much of our demographics. We are looking at many options...contract compliance, legal contest etc etc.

I think about half the GC look at PPRUNE(well thats how many have told me off for what I say here;-) - but we are cognisant of the 'squeaky wheel' bias of this site. Best thing to do is write to the GC with what you would like to see happen...all emails are treated confidentially! CX have a pretty good idea who most people are on here and I can ASSURE you they read PPRUNE.

rhoshamboe

12th Oct 2007, 09:07

NC,
Well I guess JF can't complain, by the looks of things I'll have been here for 15 years and still be on SFO B Scale wages too.
As an aside if ST is so trustworthy why does he keep endorsing ****ty deals??

19weeler

12th Oct 2007, 10:26

REALITY CHECK!!!!!

First of all NC; apologies for my remarks. History will prove them to be true or false.

First of all - A scalers let the B-scale happen!
Sorry A scalers! We all know that the only force able to stop the hiring of crew on lesser pay scales is the currently employed group of pilots.
We all know there is always someone out there who will do your job for less money, if not for free.

A scalers, B scalers - You are all responsible for ASL, integrated patterns, C scale, Veta, COS 99, etc....

Do you see the patten here?
When I hear an A scaler, B scaler, ASL pilot complaning about a pilot joining on lesser conditions than him... and blaming that person for taking the job it makes me sick!!!!!!

It is up to the CURRENT pilot group to maintain the standards they currently enjoy.
The only time here at cx that my cos did not go backwards was from the day the 49ers were fired, until MG got the presidency of the aoa.

We had CX tied up from all angles, rostering, contractual, etc... all we needed was time!

MG won a huge rostering case in the HK courts and damages were awarded to over 900 cx pilots but MG squandered the opportunity to make any improvements.

Then there was the 49ers deal!

NEED I SAY MORE!!!

The lack of transparency and communication from the aoa since MG and ST have been in charge has been terrible.
We used to get weekly updates (at least) with all the details with past presidents.

(Is everyone aware that an aoa member is seeking legal counsel to clarify an alleged rule breach by our beloved union?)
Has this been communicated to us in any of our recent newsletters?
This is a very important allegation!!!!!
If you call the office they will downplay it to the extreme.

ACCOUNTABILITY, and TRANSPARENCY, Where are they?????

NC, you and your comittee are in major ****!
The fact that you have identified yourself on PPRUNE as a comittee member is a disgrace in itself!
Your number crunching is great, but the fact that you made it known that you were a serving comittee member reeks of stinky politics and is extremely unprofessional!!!!!!

WAKE UP AOA!!!!! You are losing it! Get some new leadership that represents your membership.

It is up to US membership!

Is the CPU going to be my only option?
If so, bring it on. At least they have put out a few newsletters in the last few months.

AoA members????

Raise HELL and storm that office!!!! Make JF earn his B+ scale salary. (plus P-fund)

Make our Leaders accountable!!!!!
Phone and ask lots of questions about the RULE BREACH!

WAKE UP!!
PLEASE!!!

Hellenic aviator

12th Oct 2007, 13:17

Numero,

Pardon my question - this is not an attack, just asking for your opinion/thoughts....

In your previous post you state that you don't think the GC would have any objections in having professional negotiators nor would CX be willing to negotiate with non pilots. Is this fact or your personal thought ?

I ask this because firstly, I am not happy with the results of what the GC has come up with and secondly, I for one, would be willing to pay extra to have professional negotiators to represent us. If CX is not willing to speak to 'non pilots', then why is it ok for a 'non pilot' to be the current DFO ?

Would it hurt us in at least trying another avenue (professional negotiators) ?

If not, then why not try this ?
If so, then what is the point of belonging in the AOA or, even the AOA existing ?

SAD

12th Oct 2007, 14:37

NC

Do you or any GC members you know of regret having given up on the 49'rs or atleast the ability for the AOA to fund their legal fight after this last blow to the goodwill we have shown?

BusyB

12th Oct 2007, 14:44

SAD,

There is so much more involved that it is not something that can be openly written about on here.

Yes, I think it could have been handled better by ALL involved. Managerial quarterbacking is merely pointscoring and totally unconstructive.:bored:

Numero Crunchero

12th Oct 2007, 15:35

19 weeler,
my identity was the world's worst kept 'secret' - it was brought up during negotiations by CX. I have always tried to post under the assumption that everyone knows who I am. That helps restrain me from saying things like
"NC, You are PATHETIC!
Always have been, and always will be."

You have the benefit of anonymity, I do not. I liked CPRUNE as at least we knew that almost everyone on the forum was a colleague. ON PPRUNE we do not have that certainty. But at least you have one viewpoint of the GC in the public domain...people want transparency....I am transparent!

SAD,
I was not on the GC when the 49ers deal was done. I can say that I was very unhappy with the double vote...as I was last year with the RP07 double vote. I believe we should live with the consequences of our own rules even though they are somewhat undemocratic.
Anyway, those issues are a can of worms...so I will leave them unopenend!

The rule 'breach' that 19 weeler refers to...I don't think it is any secret that some(many) are unhappy with what happened last year with RP07 - some have contested that it was illegal. I am no lawyer but I must admit I saw nothing illegal in the path that was taken. As far as I can tell it was within the rules...but then thats law for you, 2 opposite opinions for the same rule.

Hellenic,
not sure if it is their policy or an unwritten rule. I remember the abacus wouldn't negotiate with JF as he really disliked/hated JF. There are many issues that are quite difficult for an outsider to negotiate/appreciate. My point is that negotiations are not a game of poker or 21. Negotiations, in my experience, are about the company legitimizing the impending imposition of whatever changes they wish to implement. We went in wanting to discuss salary and salary only. What do you do when the other side says that there are other agenda items and that the deal requires recommendation from the other team? It wasn't a negotiation...it was 9 weeks of time wasting to make the final lowball numbers look semi legitimate because of the length of time it took to reach them.

As to what is the point of being in the AOA? I ask that question of myself every day. I can't see how things can be better if there was no AOA! We have little influence with an AOA - but I can't see that things would be better if we had no AOA. There are the ancillary benefits of LoI insurance and some help in cases of D+G etc. But joining the AOA is not the panacea to our industrial weakness. Are the 40% of nonmembers any better off than us? I am probably one of the more cynical amongst us but that is because I have spent more time dealing with CX than most!

sirhcttarp
SO bypass pay seems to rely on being 'assessed' - but not sure as I havent read that anywhere recently. FO command bypass pay is dependant on you NOT being cat D. So assessed or not, you are eligble for bypass pay as long as you are not cat D.
You will hear many people say that they are not getting bypass pay even though they are coming up for command. That is because there are only 20 or so pax CN extendees that generate bypass pay and there are at least that many Cat B and Cat C FOs.

But looking ahead...lets assume every CN extends to only 60...in late 2012 there will be between 270-300CNs beyond 54 - ergo there are potentially 270-300 SFOs eligible for bypass pay. Now here is the gotcha...if you sign over to CoS08 you do not get any bypass pay and no one else gets it in your stead. SO if the most senior 300 SFOs included 150 on bases, only 150 FOs would get bypass pay -those on CoS99.

So if you are more than 5 years away from command now, as you get close there could be between 250-500(if everyone extends to 65) extendee CNs which means that at even 100 commands a year you could be getting bypass pay for up to 5 years. Every year on command bypass pay is worth over $400K HKD plus you are entitled to CN's benefits...so housing and J class FOC presumably!

clear as mud?

iLuvPX

12th Oct 2007, 16:25

NC asks:
Are the 40% of nonmembers any better off than us?

Yeah, we are about 1-3% of our salary better. :cool:

Beta Light

12th Oct 2007, 17:53

iLuvPX,
I suggest you and your non member mates take that 1-3% and buy yourselves a spine, or some balls.

Iwannahumpalot

13th Oct 2007, 06:03

Thats what we need, smart, intelligent, constructive comments like wheelers comments..mate, it doesnt help us at all trying to move forward when you post comments like you did, pull your head in and get a reality check...

NC, has the GC discussed at all the possibility of pro negotiators? Didnt the company hire some thugs to be there negotiators? if so, then they dont have a leg to stand on if they want to only deal with us, i wouldnt give them a choice, if they are hired by the AOA then they are representing us and they wouldnt give up until they get what they are told to and because they are being paid by us, they wouldnt stop!!!

I may have to call in a favor or two from the Teamsters!!! Now they would be enjoyable to watch!!!

hump-OUT

Mr. Bloggs

13th Oct 2007, 06:51

NR considers professional negotiators as terrorists and he doesn’t negotiate with terrorists. He said that many years ago.:E:ok:

oriental flyer

13th Oct 2007, 09:55

This from the ryanair web site for those looking for alternative comparisons
do the sums at GBP 15.7 to the HK$ . Suddenly our salaries don’t look so attractive
UK salary Eurozone
Captains

Up to £100,000pa HK 130, 833 pm Up to €130,000
Training £120,000 HK 157,000 pm up to €160,000

First Officers (1,500 hrs)
Up to £70,000 HK 91,583 Up to to €80,000

Numero Crunchero

13th Oct 2007, 15:18

I think you need to check those figures. After 9 weeks of negotiations the company thinks

£45,036

is the right figure for an FO to start on a UK basing. Please advise ryanair etc of their misquoted salary!

MAX

14th Oct 2007, 03:34

The UFO starting salary for the UK base doesnt reflect the bucketload of of experience CX requires for the position.

Lots of companies have starting salaries in the mid 40k's but the entry requirements are much less.

The point is, why would experienced pilots who have progressed up their respective companies career ladder want to join CX on that starting pay?

MAX:cool:

CMOTDibler

14th Oct 2007, 04:04

"Maybe I am being overly optimistic but we aim to talk about Roster Practices and Basing Policy next year so we may as well add pay and retirement age into the mix again."

Is he joking? Look where integrated negotiating got us this time. Surely it is time the AoA stood up and said no, we will not negotiate anything else until a reasonable offer of pay is on the table. When pay is resolved we will move forward.

The AoA GC would have reasonable justification in saying to the company that it unlikely a vote on anything other than pay will win the support of the masses due to the damage done by the company's imposed miniscule pay rise. Given the company's obvious disregard to move forward together the membership will be anti any company attempt to alter Roster Practices and basing policy.

As a second thought, why do we need to be re-negotiating Roster practices again so soon unless the company has won some concessions from the CAD that it wants to implement.

Also it appears that the company plan to wait a little bit (until next year) to find out if there implemented contract and pay impact on retention and recruitment. If no-one leaves (as I suspect they won't) and no-one joins they know they can tighten the screw another turn.