The art of persuasion

[f1aps f1ve]

Hi everyone

I`ve been watching Cathay for quite some time. I'm adequately compensated both in terms of income and rostering. Economicly, the CX backseat pay is less than my current wage, but when you factor in the HK tax and housing allowance, I get more take-home at the end of the month. The backside is, of course, I'll end up living/dying (cross out as you wish) in the Mid-Levels slowly suffocating from the chinese "rise to industrialism" while drinking myself to death in the alleys below, as I wait for the next 4-day trip to take me away in my jumpseat to downtown somewhere.

Needless to say, I'm not joining to live in Hong Kong for the rest of my life, (not specifying my current status within CX recruitment is a natural precaution, seeing that most of the nametags in Catalina's refer to pprune at some point during the evening.)

Growing up, Cathay was always refered to with awe. It was right up there the great ones. The pay and benefits were always mentioned, as was the magic of Hong Kong. Most of the guys I knew flying for the legacy carriers (all retired by now) spoke of Cathay with respect.

By now, I`ve have read every post in this site a hundred times over. The rule by fear, the draconian failure rates, the darwinian struggle for command, payscale and basings. The erosion of payscales to a level only matched by turboprop feeders. The disintegration of the AOA, the managements endless quest for bonus and profits while squeezing the last drops of liquidity from the sustanability that has kept this airline flying for over 60 years.

I don`t hear much talk of Cathay with awe anymore. The spice of Hong Kong dissapeared with the rise of Shanghai and the departure of the Union Jack. Some of the older guys I fly with still make references to the legends of Cathay, but most guys can`t figure out why I even bother. Not now. It seems everyone knows someone who has either turned down a Cathay initial interview, a cathay final interview, or a Cathay offer of employment. Of course I have my reasons for joining. But I`ve got to admit; I`m close to backing out. Very close. The persuasion offered by the sheer volume of warnings keeps me awake at night.

So to all you who argue against CX; please hold off just a little while. I`ve read all the posts, I've heard the arguments. You've almost got me convinced; almost. But if there is anyone who has something good to say about this airline, then please step forward.

Please convince me why an FO with a still-not-receeding hairline should leave his home country to become an expatriate SO with a company unable to attract his equally or probably better qualified collegues. Please tell me the other side of this story.

[Sqwak7700]

Couldn't resist dude, but anyone planning to join as an SO NOW (Being as of today that the new COS08 is gonna be forced down your throat) is focking nuts.

I honestly don't know how CX intends to hire SOs when they are gonna start hiring direct entry FOs in the pax fleet.

Use the money that you haven't spent on CX to get your head examined for even thinking about joining as an SO. :ugh:

[missingblade]

THey will keep hiring SO 's like they always have - ie young kids of a turboprop who sees this as a big opportunity. Are you one?

The guys who are really feeling screwed are the one's that came here as SO's of jets elsewhere. While they are still riding the backseat their mates are getting commands at Jetstar, Easy, Emirates, Korean etc etc

CX won't be able to get SO's with any decent experience anymore - but that doesn't matter - If a 200 hour cadet can do it then so can you!
So mate - it all depends on what else you can get!

[sisyphos]

Only left advantages of Cathay IMHO:

- It may suit your personal situation/ lifestyle, that at CX you are in theory able to switch between bases around the world. ( be aware you need seniority though, e.g. a command on a base might be very hard to get in the future with retirement age 65 on bases/ 55 in H.K.). Other expat-carriers, e.g. EK, do not have these basing options.

- pay in Hong Kong is still allright if you include the housing allowance and you don't need to bother about the exchange rate to Canadian/Australian $ or Euro ( = if you are from the U.S. or you want to retire in a U$ country) . In other words, CX pay is acceptable for non-Americans , if Hong Kong is acceptable for you as a permanent residence.

- There are different types of A/C to choose from (not at the bases though usually). So, in theory, you can decide between ultra long range and regional ops when on a H.K. base ( again, with restrictions, e.g. when upgrading).

- It still has a British/Australian company culture ( though fading), that might be an advantage to other Asian carriers if you are a Westerner yourself. (I never flew for Singapore/Korean etc, so I do basically not know if it is a problem there if you are a colonial-expat, to be honest).

- There is free coffee available in the crew lounge on the 23th floor.:}

[oriental flyer]

Flaps f1ve dying in mid levels is more like it . The visibility today was 2600m in sh-t . Trust me it is getting worse and it is not good for your health.You can taste it as you descend towards HK so if you want to work to 65 & probably die before then from lung disease then come by all means

[Buttie Box]

F1aps F1ve

It's taken me several years to reach some sort of perspective that will enable me to put your post into some sort of context, and perhaps provide some food for thought for others. Normally this would be the sort of chat reserved for over a few gin and tonics, although these days I rarely imbibe as my recovery time is measured in weeks, not hours.

On the subject of ex-pat life

Any emergent economy faced with a lack of expertise will import its deficiency with the promise of a large salary and attractive package. However, once established, there will inevitably be a resentment at paying at said level, especially once a local workforce is trained to be able to replace the expensive employees.

On the subject of modern business practices

Up until the late 70s/early 80s when governments were voted in to look after services such as defence (internal and external), health, education and all the other items listed in Monty Python's Life of Brian, companies would promote their competent operators into managerial positions. These people would not only asset manage but also lead their teams as they knew firsthand what was like to carry out their function. As more and more businesses became privatised, the ethos was to replace the highly paid professional with a business manager, thus it was deemed being able to allow the said highly paid professional to do his highly paid job and pay the business manager a lower salary. Managers became managers, loyalty ceased to have a cash value and inspirational leadership was allowed to lapse. Business managers had business ideas, such as granting a percentage bonus of any savings made at the expense of the workforce they were managing. Personnel departments were replaced with Human Resource departments...but more is perhaps for another forum, another time.

On the subject of your thread

You asked us or anything good? Well, I can achieve my lifelong ambition to fly large-bodied jets. As a tribute to the recruitment system, I enjoy flying with about 95% of the pilot body. Everything about Cathay says "potential" even if much of that is not realised. The salary was good but is continually eroded by conditions of service and a lack of an inflationary pay rise.

But on a personal level, the bottom line for me is that I expected to come here for life but in today's business environment that isn't necessarily the case. As such, it has taken me several years to come to the conclusion that if there is a better offer elsewhere I will have little or no hesitation in doing what is best for the health of me and my family.

BB

[cxflyer]

I've been here 19 years.
Don't bother coming.

[f1aps f1ve]

Thank-you to those of you who replied.

Bottom line: If joining NOW as an SO, is this the career timescale that is being offered?:

SO HKG: 3 years
JFO HKG: 1-2 years
FO Based: 8-10years
CN HKG: 15+ years
Death

[crewsunite]

This is NOT A CAREER AIRLINE ANYMORE

Only come if you can use CX system for your advantage for something else.

We all wish they would give us a decent pay raise and more respect for our goodwill. The truth is sadly NO. Many off us still live by the illusion that CX is the Best - Well even Cabin crew are unhappy & leave ASAP.

They are screwing us when things could not be better. So imagine if things go badly (& in Asia it will have bad days)

So who knows what the future holds - I'll tell you this, it will not be in your hands.

So don't get stuck in our seniority system in time then find you would rather be somewhere else. :rolleyes:

CX treat potential new joiners relatively professionally but once here in HK you will depend on friends & other peers for training & finding your way around. etc

Good luck, if you can build bridges eslewhere do.

[Five Green]

Flaps five

Well a little optimistic on the timeline. More like:

SO 3 1/2 - 4 1/2
JFO 2-3 (used to never exist is used to hold you back and keep some of your salary!!)
FO HKG additional 1- ???? years By this time it may be a long wait to get a base so you may need 10 years seniority or who knows ??
Captain 15 yrs?? Well you may be close on this one, but you may only be doing it for ego as the pay may be less than based FO !!

Of course you could take early freighter command and then it looks like this :

SO 6 months !
Freighter FO 2 years ( after you give up seniority to get the FO !! )
Freighter Captain 12-15 years and then pax in HKG til the end.

If you join with a time line you may be disappointed. If you join willing to let your fate roll along with whatever the bosses decide in any given week you will be fine !

Good Luck !

[Jose Jimenez]

Flapper, if you're looking to make some money (i.e., by buying something in HKG and hopefully selling it for what you paid, or a reasonable profit), maybe taking a base and having a good home life (9 days of work a month if you're based in LAX or SFO), enjoying good medical insurance (for the moment), but not having any fun or enjoyment at work and not really flying (one landing a month and 14 hours across the Pacific isn't flying), then come on to CX. You won't work less for the money anywhere in the world, to my knowledge. However, it ain't flyin', it ain't in no sense of the word, "fun," and your future is completely uncertain.

I understand how, to you, growing up, it looked like the dream job. It was. It's not now. But, if you want to do something else with your life, $150k a year and 9 days of work a month (after a few years) is not bad. You can do a lot at home with your family, or, go to school to prepare for a more respectable and rewarding career.