Oxford or Cabair or any others??

[mb2ai]

hi guys - I need some help.

Ive made the concious decision to persue a career as a pilot, somthing Ive always dreamed of. I was 18 in 2002, and by then the industry was turbulet, so i decide to go to uni.
I studied and graduated in Aerospace Enginering, and have sice persued an engineering career.

This interests me, but I need more from a career hence I now want to train for an ATPL.

The money is available to do the integrated route at oats or cabair. However im stuck between them - and cant decide where to go.
I know which I would prefer and thats OATS, but apart from the bad things I hear about cabair on here; I can find a reason not to go there - because its a few thousand pounds cheaper.

Thoughts please.....

I mean the most important thing to me is that I get employment after whichever course I do -
On the OATS website it states that 54% of BA's new pilots came from OATS in 2006; and there are 2 other FTO's that supply FOs to BA. I know one is cabair with their FO direct course - is the other FTO?

Anyway this is all assuming i go for an integrated course! i mean modular is 20K cheaper - this means less pressure to stop the parents house getting reposessed!

All in all im a bit stuck - engineering dosent cut the mustard anymore, and I cant see which route or FTO to use!

HELP!

MB:ok:

[Mercenary Pilot]

What about FTE?

[maxdrypower]

Read here this question is asked a hundred times a week you should find all info here
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649

[akindofmagic]

CTC also supply cadets to BA.

[mb2ai]

Cheers Guys for the info so far!

I can assure you I have bee reading these forms for months and have searched lots. So please be patient with me - Its probably the biggest decision of my life!

[ray morris]

We laboured over the same decision for my son and in the end chose Oxford. The reason was that ox are very successful in helping guys get their first job. We ruled out cabair after visiting it- as it did not seem to be as professional as Ox. You should also look at CTC self sponsorship route as they have strong links with Easyjet - who are a good employer. Also the CTC course is good

Flight training europe is another option and the attraction is small courses and they use bristol groundshool which is excellent.
Having said that our current impression of Ox is that they are a bit overstretched at present. Their link with Gcat may lead to an integrated course with type rating-- worth asking them about that.

My advice would be do not choose on the basis of cost. Look at the record of employment and the pass / fail rates for each training company.

best of luck

RJM

[ray morris]

Ps we ruled out modular training as intergated training undoubtedly offers a better chance of employment.

[Mercenary Pilot]

we ruled out modular training as intergated training undoubtedly offers a better chance of employment

Not true, besides there is a Modular V Intergrated thread already.

[maxdrypower]

Ray , where do you get the impression that Ox assists more in helping gain employement? Is this from their site ? I think you will find from here that from experience Oxford does precisely the opposite . Just do a search and listen to all the ex oxford students who are still out of a job and have had no assistance whatsoever . An ex colleaugue of mine went integrated at Ox and hasd sod all help . When he finally got a job with Baby they put him down as a success which then potential punters see as someone who oxford assisted (untrue)
I also think you will find that you are not more lkiely to be employed as an integrated type . Yes some airlines do like it , but only some an fATPL is exactly that . Im sure your son will be fine at Ox and may get a job at the end of it they are a good school no doubt . And if you can afford it then why not but dont do it on the strength of their sales pitch . I have had their pitch and its bollocks thye constantly quote successes that are not theirs etc etc
Good luck

[MonarchA330]

On the OATS website it states that 54% of BA's new pilots came from OATS in 2006

Over half of British Airways' new pilots in 2006 came from Oxford?! Either they only took on 3 new pilots in 2006 or there is some spin in that claim there!

[Blinkz]

I went to OAT and have no complaints. There not perfect, but who is. Once graduated from OAT I had three interviews thanks to their recommendations. I also had another 2 interviews which I got off my own back, but one of those I only got because I had OAT on my CV. I was on a double course that graduated in March this year and out of the 44 people in the course all but 4 are now employed for major airlines. 2 out of those 4 not employed are in hold pools waiting for start dates.
This is just my experience of OAT. I enjoyed my time their and due to having good reports and good exam marks I was recommended to some of the best airlines (BA,BMI) It was my own fault that I managed to muck up the interviews!

[Katherine Alexandra]

Monarch A330,

Oxford had 34 ex-students go British Airways in 2006. And a fair number already this year: 47 (BA and BA Citiflyer).

I'm currently at OAT and, so far, it's been very good. Ok, so the management are not at all well-organised but they've delivered what they've promised (eventually, in terms of information). Of course, only time will tell if they live up to their reputation but, of my friends who've been through OAT, I've heard no complaints.

[Frank Furillo]

If the school say they supply pilots to BA etc then it must be true..... after all the Sunday Express today states that Diana's driver was a MI6 Agent, so thats true as well... I would be very very very very (get the idea!!!) careful about what you are told and read by any school, newspaper, politician etc.
I cannot for the life of me believe that British Airways ONLY take oxford graduates:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Why for the love of god would you not choose on the basis of cost, I did not have a spare £60,000.00 knocking around, neither do most of us.
I attended the Pprune gatbash and senimar yesterday, I would STRONGLY advise anybody who wished to start in the business to go to one. It does help you decide what is the best training for yourself.
Also one final point, we very rarely hear of anybody who has a bad thing to hear about Oxford, now you can take that one of two ways:
Either they are quite simply the finest training money can buy, remember you will go to the states for some of it.
Or they have a dammed good PR wagon and people who have been stung are afraid to comment about things because they may be concerned that it will cause them problems when job hunting. This is a very incestuous business and as the old saying goes, be careful whose hands you stand on going up as you will meet then on the way down! (edited to be polite)

[Blinkz]

Frank, I have to say that is an extremely cynical view. I do agree that everyone needs to use there own judgement and make up their own minds. I also do agree that OATs promotional stuff is a little on the glam/tacky side!

No-one is saying that BA only take from OAT, and no-one is saying that OAT is the best most perfect school ever.

What I CAN say is my experience.

a) I always found OAT very open about most things, when I went to an open day they didn't force me into going integrated, they discussed the pro's and con's of both modular and integrated with me.

b) I can vouch for the fact that this years OAT employment figures are true because for a large part they are all people I know and who actually DID get a job after leaving OAT.

c) Like I said in my previous post, OAT isn't perfect. However its is a very good school, the training I received was excellent and has stood me well for the future. Is it the only option? no not at all! will it guarantee you a job? No of course not. What I do think, in my humble opinion, is that it minimises the risk of getting a job after training. Note I said minimise and not takes away :}

[Frank Furillo]

So who do you work for then??????????????????????????????
Yes I may be cynical, but then again going to the university of life does that to you. I am told by BMW that it is the Ultimate Driving Machine, now I do have one, but I still prefer the Honda S2000 for pure driving pleasure. Oxford are very very good at marketing themselves. I have NO experience of them, but one has to use one's judgement in life.
.
Just to say that I have not been asked in interviews, Who i did my training with, What was my average score on my APTL's and most shockingly of all did I pass my IR first time, shame because I did.

You should always endeavor to do well at anything, however your Blue licence is just that, it does not matter one hoot where you got it from, the CAA treat us all the same. This eliteism that is encouraged by various intergrated providers is one of the many factors causing problems in the aviation world.

My personal advice would be to get your CPL/ME/IR as cheaply as humanly possible and look to do a type rating with hours.
When I was renewing my OPC some months ago for the B737, at Cranebank BA's training centre. I was told by a Training Captain the the two trainiees he currently had, both Oxford Grads, were paying BA for their type rating:ugh::ugh::ugh: yes they were employees, but they paid more for this rating than I did and also lots and lots of lovely dosh more for their licence.
FF

[Katherine Alexandra]

Frank,

I agree with Blinkz. I know a fair few of those who have gone to BA and, while it's recognised that OAT do take credit for their graduates getting jobs that they've not helped them get, they are not lying about having trained their graduates to the standard required by the airlines.

[Blinkz]

an irish airline....:}

and thanks for the backup Katherine, nice to know I'm not the only one who doesn't think OAT is the spawn of the aviation world....

[Frank Furillo]

Dear Katherine and Blinkz,
so so sorry, you obviously have much more life experience that someone in their late 30's, divorced, been made redundant, raised over £100K for training and living costs, runs their own business and deals with their own tax return and their fiancee's tax returns as well.
I have absolutely no issues with Oxford, as said, however I do have huge issues with the elitism that seems to surround many oxford students. There was one at the senimar yesterday and sorry but he needs to learn to wind his neck in.
Why is no one allowed to comment on any aspect of integrated training unless it is to praise it to the gods? I was under the impression that we live in a democracy, well Gordon Brown doesn't think so but thats another issue.
I will not be drawn into the debate, as it has been raging for many years and will no doubt continue.
I am trying to give an objective side to this and am too old to argue or discuss when others quite clearly know better than me.
I wish you both the very best and hope you get what you wish for, me its a Tall Well Breasted Swedish blonde woman who goes like a train, but don't tell the fiancee

Also Blinkz, well done on getting that job with Ryanair, of course you will have to shell out for your type rating. I know lots of Modular pilots who are are Ryanair as well. good luck

[Blinkz]

Why is it that everyone is so keen to insult the integrated route and people who go down it??

I really don't understand it. I'm not disagreeing with your view, I am just saying that in MY EXPERIENCE, since I'm afraid I've not had the luxury of going through a divorce yet, but I'm sure when I do it will open my eyes to the world and everything in it.....

Everyone just seems so ready to insult people willing to spend money on an integrated course. It is very simple, for some people integrated will suit them better, modular will suit other people. NEITHER is better, they both have pro's and con's. Why can't people accept this???

As to the elitism, well again I will have to bow to your knowledge again on this one, as in my time their I've never met anyone who fits this category?? We don't think we're better, we don't have anything against modular people, in fact I have HUGE respect for modular people, as I don't think I would be able to work full-time whilst doing my training, which a lot of mods do. It is the modular people that seem to thing that everyone who goes integrated is automatically a spoilt brat who's daddy paid for everything so they could go flying for a bit before retiring to daddys boat in the med.

Why can't we all just get along??? we all love flying, we're all good pilots, we're all going to be sharing a flightdeck!!! why the hostility???

[Frank Furillo]

I did not insult anybody, if i did by accident, I am very sorry. I just feel that spending £60K+ on a blue book when you can spend a lot less is insane.
I have no issues with anybody and am not looking for a fight.

[future captain]

I'm certain ba do not charge for a type rating.

[Frank Furillo]

Two points,
One: I have no reason to doubt the BA Training Captain who I and my Examiner spoke too.
Two: I have no reason to lie, and no axe to grind.
Therefore I am just passing on some information, whether you believe it or not is up to you, to say "I am certain" is implying that you have insider knowledge, are you a BA Training Captain? Are you head of HR at BA? or are you just shooting the wind?
The best bet is to ask BA themselves, I am just letting people know what I was told by somebody who works there, straight from the horses mouth as they say, not third or forth hand .

[Blinkz]

As I understand it with BA, from a number of friends who are currently flying for them, that you don't actually pay for your type rating however you do have a reduced salary for the first couple of years to pay for it. Not sure of the exact figures tho. Nothing is free in this world anymore!

[asuweb]

BA, like many other airlines do, indirectly charge for the type rating via a reduced salary.

I'm an ex oxford graduate, and had no major problems. As has been said, the management (especially in the FWB) needs (or needed when I was there) a rocket up their arse, but appart from that, things were fairly good. Out of my class, I think around 80% are now employed, or in holding pools.

There isn't a right or wrong way to do the training - it's a personal choice and each individual needs to figure out what the best course of action is.

[expedite08]

It is a shame about this debate. It still rumbles on and on. However, everyone has a valid point to argue! I think that is why it continues! It is a sad fact, and a fact it is, that the integrated lot have got thier name from the spoilt brats out there.

I have seen it with my very own eyes!! I know a guy of 21 who didnt pay a penny for his training (daddy did), and is now with Thomson fly! Yes it makes me feel sick, that im slugging it away the hard way,( constanly broke, no life, all that good stuff etc), but at the end of the day, all people who know him think he is a complete tosser! An example is spending out £400 on a pair of sun glasses! Says it al I think!

HOWEVER!! there are some very good down to earth, mature integrated pilots who have slaved away for the funds, so its not all bad.

[cfwake]

expedite08

just to say that some of us who have been helped out by parents are pretty decent human beings too. just because we've had a (very) lucky break doesn't mean that we should be looked down on or seen as anything other than equal, as many people appear to do simply because we were given a chance that many other people do not get.

i'm not implying that you suggested that you do despise those of us who get help, as your post clearly doesn't, but i feel that people are too often quick to chastise us...and there are a lot of us, including plenty of my friends who are modular, and being helped along by mum and dad too!

[The Mixmaster]

Hear hear cfwake!