Duty time programme

[WANDERLUST]

Looking for a simple programme to keep track of flight/duty times for a small flight dept.

[boredcounter]

Try getting someone to record the times on paper. If you are small, you can't justify a crew records clerk. Presuming your Co. pays Flight Pay, may be worth getting the checker to keep records. My mob flies 13 jets, and we have not computerised (groan) yet. Unless (and it is only my opinion) you can justify intigrated Flight Watch, Sheduling, Crew Recs, do not look for a stand alone package. We tried one once called SMART, it made work. Look instead to justify an integrated package, and no, can't help there
Good luck anyway, got any jobs.............

------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle

[boredcounter]

WL
however, can put you on to, at your peril, so to speak, a few people tht MIGHT be able to come up with an un-supported, Excel type programme, based purely on data input, if I missed the plot. The e-mails onm display

------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle




[This message has been edited by boredcounter (edited 08 May 2000).]

[lalapanzi]

Wanderlust

what number of flyers are we talking about?
I do have a very simple excel based spread sheet that can be used to keep record of 7/14/28 day flying & duty hours + flight pay if done on a monthly/.28 day basis. Does all the sums.

Use a computer system which is very effective is managed correctly!

[JB007]

Or you could try "CHORES".
Crew HOurs REcording System. I used it in Excalibur, it does the job.
Run by a Capt. Robert Dilworth, not sure who he flys for now, was Air2000 I think.
I have no Contact details for him unfortunatly, but British World at Southend have the system, i'm sure they'll pass on his details to you if you asked.

Cheers
007

------------------
"My Name is Pussy Galore"

"I must be dreaming"

[WANDERLUST]

Thanks guys,
We only have 10 sets of crews just now.
Dont know yet whether we will expand or go under. --- Probably expand and go under.
Regards

[RDi]

"Looking for a simple programme to keep track of flight/duty times for a small flight dept". [WANDERLUST]

"My mob flies 13 jets, and we have not computerised (groan) yet". [boredcounter]

Help is at hand !

The problem with UK CAA Crew Records since CAP 371 is that the ops/crewing people who can do all the required sums are all far too busy to do so. So you either have to hire someone to do all the sums, or put a computer in the hands of the crewing people.

We all on PPRuNe know what computers mean: Hutber's law, "progress means deterioration" usually applies. Without effective software, the computer wastes more time not less.

Small new airline companies fudge the issue somehow: they might perhaps do an awkward labour-intensive spreadsheet, discover how difficult programming is, then perhaps try a local shop to write something for them. The local shop charges upwards of 50 quid an hour to program, yet doesn't really understand the problem in enough detail. [ Eg, how many even of us current crewing people REALLY understand the niceties of say, split-duty FDPs on a 3-sector day after a positioning "sector" then a dead-heading "sector" after a standby duty spent in a hotel provided by the company starting at 0500 local for a crew who were in Newfoundland 3 nights ago and were perhaps using a level 2 variation to get there ?] So the local-shop solution can cost tens of thousands, and still doesn't do the job, and the CAA won't approve it easily, and you find you have started not just a small new airline, but a large software development project. And you wish you hadn't!

Yet the all-singing all-dancing crewing and operations planning and rostering software currently used by the majors probably costs a quarter of a million quid up front, and then 50 grand a year to run and maintain.

There seemed to be nothing in between back in the early nineties when CHORES! was developed. CHORES! - the Crew HOurs REcording System - is now well-proven by crewing managers in UK airlines: among them Airtours, Airworld, All Leisure, Ambassador, British World, Classic, DebonAir, Excalibur, HeavyLift, Sabre and Trans-European. They stop using it when they get big enough to be taken over and to afford the quarter of a million quid (like Airworld that joined Flying Colours, or All Leisure subsumed by TransAer) or if they go bust (like Ambassador and Trans European)

Danny & jb007, I hope you won't mind if I sail close to the wind on advertising and risk being banned, but>:

If you are a small flight dept, Wanderlust, even if only 10 sets of crew

and certainly if you have 13 jets, boredcounter,

CHORES! could well be for you. It's available.

eMail me for more details.

Thanks for the plug, jb007

[lalapanzi]

RDi
Sorry but you DO NOT require the CAA's approval to use a computer system. You do need to have all the answers when queries from them arise :)

Wanderlust only wants a programme to keep track of 7/14/28 day running totals. The rest of day to day crewing/ops should be managed by any competent person, who should be aware of what duties etc the crew have operated and whether level 1/2/3 variation, acclimatised un-acclimatised fdp used etc etc.

So to answer Wanderlust, yes I can help with a simple spreadsheet programme, that the CAA where happy to accept. It is so simple it beggers belief http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif
e-mail for more info.

Oh & RDi not all systems cost a fortune. I know of one that is used by International schedule carrier & UK charter to great effect.


[This message has been edited by lalapanzi (edited 14 May 2000).]

[RDi]

Thanks Ialapanzi. That's a good offer for Wanderlust to think about.

Of course you're right about not requiring the CAA's approval to use a computer system. Sorry if I implied otherwise. I meant to allude to "the Campaign" being able to insist that you have in place a scheme for the regulation of flight times, and on the keeping of crew records as part of that scheme. It is the scheme that has to be approved by the Campaign, subject to such conditions as it thinks fit. As you said to Wanderlust, this depends on "what number of flyers are we talking about?" In the past, depending on the size of operator, the Campaign have been fairly abrupt about computer records systems they perceived to be unreliable.

Wanderlust, its horses for courses, really.

Pencil and paper is fine: a brilliant Ops manager I knew kept 2 x 757s worth of crew records on cleverly-designed sheets of ruled paper, without a calculator, for a year. Then they wanted to double in size, so he needed help, and he wasn't then a spreadsheet user.

Simple spreadsheets are fine too: for smaller companies possibly best of all, because if you can spreadsheet you can keep on top of the whole game with this fantastic productivity tool. These days nearly all of us are computerate at home and know how to use and write a useful spreadsheet, so it is fairly practical to do a simple one at work for crew hours, although time and date arithmetic has some odd quirks.

Much the same can be said of the simple database, perhaps more so, because it is after all data - flight and duty data - we are storing. It seems less people have bothered going down this road, perhaps because a database is not always bundled as standard. The CHORES! programs were a simple database, but seem to have developed with the help of down-to-earth crewing people over ten years into something very much more capable.

Ialapanzi mentioned "Wanderlust only wants a programme to keep track of 7/14/28 day running totals", and of course doing the totals IS a simple programme once all the data has been entered. However, Wanderlust may find some reasons for not using a simple spreadsheet or database:

Reason A. The data ENTRY may be the problem, not the simple calculations.

A simple small prop aircraft with 2 flight crew still means you enter the same duty and flight information twice, once for each crew member, unless you had designed a non-simple special interface. With bigger aircraft, at the point where you also have perhaps to enter a flight engineer, and then 4 or 5 cabin crew, there may be 7 or more lots of the same information to enter every time the aircraft flies.

If it takes a minute to enter the flight and duty data for each flight of (say) each of 7 crew members into your spreadsheet, that could be 14 minutes total for each out-and-back ops return. If you have 4 aircraft doing 3 rotations a day, you could be in for nearly 3 hours of intensive data entry every day. And the whole of Monday could be spent doing the weekend's hours backlog unless the duty ops people were also spreadsheet literate enough to do them for you. And that's just putting IN the data. Getting the up-to-date figures out is a separate task.

The CHORES! program target was 2 minutes data entry time for the ops return of a b757 of 9 crew members doing 2 sectors - or a 1011 with 14 doing one. And half-an-hour a day if your airline had 4 of either of those, including getting OUT the totals you needed. One well-practised but non-spreadsheet crewing manager regularly put in 7 crew on 2 sectors in less than a minute. If your spreadsheet system would let your non-spreadsheet ops colleagues do that, Ialapanzi, congratulations - you have to be a programmer !

If you have few flyers and kites, Wanderlust, Ialapanzi's simple spreadsheet could work well. You should be able to keep your finger on the pulse of everything. If you are in danger of getting 4 x a321s or even ba46s, you may want to email here for help!

Reason B. It may be to your advantage to have more than just the simple totals.

Ialapanzi was absolutely right to mention that "The rest of day to day crewing/ops should be managed by any competent person". One is acutely aware that by the time we enter data into crew records, the important bit has happened already: we are well downstream of events. If the planning was wrong, the best crew records system ever won't save the operation.

Producing the information on which the planning is based IS the job of crew records: if you frequently operate on the edge of the allowed flight time limits, having analysis of more than just the boring Campaign running totals can make the difference and give you an edge.

For example, compilations or stats of totals: having 10 crew right on limits while the other 10 have loads of flex might mean you can't fly everything tomorrow: last week you should have looked at comparative statistics of the high hours and adjusted the plan. The problem could be hidden in the one-, 2- or 4- Company-week duties or the 28-day or annual flying hours or even in the 4- or 12-week days-off totals. That might be quite hard to search on a spreadsheet. This is a second reason an operator might want to use more than just a simple spreadsheeet.

Once again, If Wanderlust does not frequently operate on the edge of the allowed limits with a lot of crew members, a simple spreadsheet should be fine.

Reason C. A simple spreadsheet may cost you more than you think at first.

Of course not all systems cost a fortune. A FD of (I think) Novair wrote his own for the whole company, 70,000 lines of dBASE III, commercial, accounts, eng, ops, the lot. So up-front cost is only one factor. Most of us when programming don't cost or charge out our time, which is fine until we realise who is therefore paying for it. Beware of this, Wanderlust, if you borrow someone's simple spreadsheet and have to spend personal time getting it to work in your office. You can find yourself becoming an underpaid programmer.

By the way, nor does CHORES! cost a fortune. No small UK airline would ever have afforded that, we all know the way they are and have had to be. CHORES! actually costs nothing up-front to buy, because it isn't sold: instead it costs pence per crew member to rent a licence to use it, and is maintained on-line for free. Those statistics on totals? Available. Who did most night flights? Available. Achieved Block Times? Available. Split-duty? Available. Sickness and Leave? Available. Request days-off ? Available. Input validation? Enforced. Expiries? Available. Updates for JAROPs ? Free. FDP limits? Available. Allowances and flight pay? Available. Fuel Usage analysis? Available. Bulk fuel uplifted returns? Available. Cargo handled? Available. Self-loading cargo ? Yes.

So, what's on YOUR wish-list ? How did the rhyme go - "You pays your money and you takes your choice". Best of luck choosing, Wanderlust. email for a chat if I can help you choose. Horses for courses.
________________

RDi

[lalapanzi]

RDi - thanks for that explanation. I would imagine if Wanderlust wasn't confused before he is now http://geocities.com/r337m0nk3y/cwm/errrr.gif

That apart, it is best to know up front just what it is you are after, and importantly just what it is you want it to achieve.

The time taken to enter things, should be all part of the daily routine for crew records. Using a spreadsheet, only means you enter the data once, and then by means of cut & paste copy the info to the rest of the crew. Once mastered surprising how quickly it can all be done. Using a spreadsheet is not going to alert ops/crewing to things like consecutive nights, as the purpose of the spreadsheet is to record the achieved hours. That part is the domain of ops/crewing to keep legal.

How does CHORES keep a track of high duty hours? Does one imput a planned roster and then update with the live info? Can't see how this will alert you before the incident.

The simple spread sheet I used just kept a track of achieved hours, so yes, staff had to be on the ball. It all comes down to the type of operation and how tight http://geocities.com/r337m0nk3y/cwm/eyemouth.gif

And sorry RDi I am no programmer, if only :)

[You splitter]

I have been involved with both of these differant types of system. I'll admit I was only ever on the recieving end of CHORES whilst I was a Crewing Officer. ( Sorry remembering is bringing me out in a cold sweat!)

However it did make life a lot easier for keeping track of high hours.
We were given every day the running 7 day totals in decending order with highest at the top. Simple? Yes, but effective. You can identify those crews with high hours and ensure their following 7 days at least have a chance of staying legal. I believe we can all exscuse, within reason, a 7 day bust to the 'authority', but I can't think of any possible reason for someone exceeding a 14 day limit.

To this end CHORES was good at helping you to constantly monitor and amend your duty hours. As far as other advantages to the system I couldn't comment as I never got that involved.

Paper systems and spreadsheets are generally I feel more time consuming, and would not be able as flexible. However this doesn't mean that they would be any less effective for you. As mentioned by nearly everyone it depends on how many crews you need to keep track of, and your available resources to do it. At the end of the day as long as you can satisfy the authority that you can keep control of your FTL's they will be happy with whatever system you use.



[This message has been edited by You splitter (edited 16 May 2000).]

[syd_rapac]

There is an NZ company called Forte solutions that is flogging a crewing system that combines most of the requirments for crew duty times, quals and currency as well as doing rosters etc. It is being used by a number of regionals in OZ. Try Forte.co.nz.
No I do not work for them but have been watching the system develop.
Syd

[RDi]

Thanks, You Splitter for the background. Hope the cold sweats don't last. Nice of you to give CHORES! the "Simple? Yes, but effective" testimonial.

Ialapanzi, to do the high hours the way you suggested is achievable, but of course would involve you entering all the data twice: first entering the planned roster, then the actual flight data once they have flown. In practice, if You Splitter breaks into cold sweats at the thought of entering data once, there is not going to be much enthusiasm for double entry. Too much like accounts, and CHORES! was designed to minimise data entry.

The practical workaround is to A) - run the High Hours scan today after all yesterday's returns have just been entered. Now you know if anyone is close to any of the totals for scrutiny, and which ones. Now B) - run the boring totals diaries for these few exposed crew members into the week ahead. Of course the totals will gradually reduce towards zero as the stuff of last week/ 2-weeks/ 4-weeks/ 28days etc gets subtracted and the future rosters haven't yet been input, so you now know how much increasing flex each individual has on each of those days ahead. C) - make the comparison with the rosters.

Luckily, the rostering has often been done in the form of lines of work or "crew routes" whose hours flying / duty content is already calculated and similar every week or day. With those ready roster figures and the reducing totals diaries to hand, with a tad of numerical agility you can now spot any forthcoming crises. It is often obvious: Eg, 99 high 28-day flying hours today, down to 95 forecast day hours tomorrow, so that's ample flex for doing an Ibiza without busting 100hrs (but not for doing the Tenerife). Hope all that makes sense!

In a full rostering system this would be automated and you wouldn't have to do it yourself. Sorry Wanderlust, don't know of a simple cheap rostering system. But do have a look at the one syd_rapac mentioned - (thanks, Syd) -
http://www.forte.co.nz/Geneva/GenevaFrame.htm

awesome marketing. Feels like a tad more expensive than Ialapanzi's spreadsheet...