Bloody Pilots Trying To Run Ops [Archive]

Whooaahh

10th Oct 2000, 23:04

Well said young man...How would they like it we if walked into their office and said..

Have you set the V-Speed's?
Have you checked the ATIS?
Have you put the fuel in?

Seriously though, it all depends on how they ask and what YOUR attitude is.

Like you, they are just trying to do their job and as THEY ARE SENIOR to you, it is their job to also confirm you have done yours.

In my previous company ALL Operations & Crewing personnel did a CRM course not just the guy's at the sharp end.

CHILL OUT and learn to ignore them or you will find yourself loading bag's before you know it. They of course will still be pilots and the world will continue as normal, only without you in the ops room.

Whooaahh!!!

Grandad Flyer

11th Oct 2000, 02:28

Depends on the company but I have had days when the answer to all 3 questions was NO! (Although that is not the answer they gave us of course).
Its our ultimate responsiblity to ensure flight plans are filed, that we have sufficient rest to operate next flight and that we don't operate outside of the legal rules. Sometimes ops/crewing try to push it that little bit further....

Now I am not saying that you do, but if you are regularly being asked these questions by pilots then either you are not doing your job properly, they don't know what you do, or there is a complete lack of communication between you.

Just a thought.

lalapanzi

11th Oct 2000, 02:33

Whooaahh
Quote: Like you, they are just trying to do their job and as THEY ARE SENIOR to you, it is their job to also confirm you have done yours.Unquote

Accepted they have a right to ask questions, as a vast majority have difficulty in reading a brief that would answer all their questions, BUT PLEASE, NO WAY ARE THEY SENIOR.

If that's the case in your company you have my deepest sympathy. This is not ground ops v flight ops, you work as a team, and show each other mutual respect, nothing more nothing less.

KYGMSY
You seem to have suffered from a long hard summer http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/nuts.gif
The attitude you display is what gives ground ops a bad name, climb down off your hobby horse http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net5/readpb.gif
Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you get these questions, perhaps the answer lies within the quality of the service being offered. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/moon.gif

boredcounter

11th Oct 2000, 02:38

KYGMSY
forget it mate, comes with the CPL, they know everything. Try saying I don't know, When do you run out of hours? or, file your own plan coz I don't know how to, and sit back, drink coffee and watch the B**Tard sweat. ATPL owners are better, MEL issue, need advice, refer them to the Tech Pilot, or Fleet office for a call, then take lunch while you wait................
Like I say mate, comes with the territory, JUST KNOW YOUR JOB, you do your ok
Whooaahh,
we all know that Italy ain't in the real world....................
we have crews loading baggage down there.
Third world aviation, SENIOR TO YOU, Buck up
pal.................................. Enjoy th Ops world, it is good, just do not let the bast**ds grind you down!

no sig

11th Oct 2000, 03:16

Kygmsy, read Grandad Flyer's comments, his point is well made. The key to a good relationship with most aircrew is to adopt and work in as a professional manner as, most of them do - note I did not say all. Aircrew are no different from others in our industry some are easy to work with others are not. That applies to Ops bods as well.

Senior?, no they are not senior least they are in management and their positions defined as such, but they do carry considerable responsibility in the safe operation of the aircraft, your considerable responsibility is in the exercise of operational control over that aircraft.

Lalapanzi is right, it is team work. Our job is to exercise operational control and to support the crew in the exercise of their duties. Take time out to read your Ops Manual again and see where you fit in.

Take a balanced approach in dealing with with aircrew, if it gets testy, get professional. If you have a prima dona, and I think they are a dying breed, address him as Captain, insist that he address you as Mister.

Bloody Pilots? they'll be saying Bloody Ops!

Work to foster a healthy working relationship, its not always easy I know but it is part and parcel of running a safe airline and you're part of the team that makes a difference.

You splitter

11th Oct 2000, 17:32

All good points....

Yes it is annoying when crew ask you if you have filed the flightplans, or if their hotac is booked, or if you have advised the late crews the a/c is now 2 and a half hours late. And no we would never dare walk into the sharp end of the a/c and ask if the gear is down, have the bugs been set or if they've checked cabin secure before landing!

However, any member of crew who's had a long s*it day and then has to wait two hours for their hotel room, because a reservation was missed, is bound to want check their hotac is booked the next time they fly.

Again, any pilot who has sat on stand and had to explain to 130 pissed off pax that the reason they can't leave for another 90mins is because there was no FPL in the system, is certain to check there is a flight plan for the next sector.

At the end of the day if these questions are becoming the norm the maybe you should ask yourself are you delivering the best service.
I tend to find that once you have developed trust between the flightdeck and the operations room, then you will rarely get asked these kind of questions.

If your flightplans are (nearly) always in, your hotac always booked etc, and you still get this type of behaviour then I would suggest telling the 'boss', who will hopefully contact the fleet manager to inform these boys to wind their f'ing necks in!

Used to know a pilot who would sit in the ops room when things had gone pear shaped and say, "why don't you send this one here," or "how about cancelling that one there".

Now that is bl**dy annoying!!!!

KYGMSY

11th Oct 2000, 22:37

To be honest, I try and not let it get to me. I've put up with it for ages now and I've had enough !!

Being the generous person that I am, I did their plogs for them once and got the weather for them. Now the b***ards are always on the phone - "can you do the plogs and get the weather ?". Go f**k off.

I'll have to take your advice with the "have you set the v speeds ??" I'll use that.

Even the new F/O's are on the phone - "I have to have 2 days off soon".

Cheers

waco

11th Oct 2000, 23:29

I dont pretend to have all the answers and yes, over my 16 years in the business, I've dropped a few clangers!!!

However, thats 16 years in the UK charter market. I don't know it all, far from it.

However, whenever you try and just give some junior jet jockey (loads of hours sure but straight out of the air force, night cargo, helicopters, cranfield) the occasional word of wisdom, one wastes ones breath. Shame really. Like everyone else out there you try and help..... alas the bronze god always knows best ( I asked you not to divert to BRD there is no fuel there, like I told you before departure).

But, I'll say this much.....it only happends with UK aircrew. Speak to a Canadian, American, finn etc... They speak you like a professional, they operate like professionals and all you want to do is do the very best you can for them. Why oh why cannot UK aircrew realise that :

AA/ They are just part of the team.
BB/ Following a purple line and typing on an
FMC does not make you a god.

(Although a 19 year old flying a Lancaster to Berlin in 1942 would). In the old days the aircraft were made of wood and the pilots were made of steel......Alas.

Captain Airclues

12th Oct 2000, 12:20

KYGMSY

I don't think that the crews intend any insult to your professionalism by asking these questions.
The flight deck culture of challenge and response via the checklist encourages an atmosphere where crewmembers can query another crewmembers actions without it being seen as an insult. I have no problem with the F/O (or the dispatcher) asking me if I have remembered to do something, because I am not perfect (and getting less so with advancing years), and that question might, one day, save my life. It is vital for everyones safety that we all work as a team. I have spent several days 'shadowing' our dispatchers so that I can understand their problems. I suggest that you try to fix up some jump-seat flights so that you can see the other side of the story.

Best Wishes

Airclues

KYGMSY

12th Oct 2000, 22:52

I have been on a few jump seat rides and I do understand that arriving at the destination with no flight plan filed for the return resulting in a 3 hour wait due to a slot can be frustrating. The thing is, some Captain's started doing it, then it wears of on all the golden-bollocks first officers who have only been in the game for 2 weeks !!!

The other day, we received a fax from a captain wanting us to phone the client and re change the schedule to suit him !!!!!!

Ever seen the cartoon Stressed Eric ?

I'M ERIC !!!

lalapanzi

13th Oct 2000, 02:45

If your that stressed out your in the wrong profession or in dire need of a holiday ;)

Here are some tips from a previous topic on stress, try them they just may work for you!1.Structure each day to include a minimum of 20 minutes of aerobic exercise.
2.Eat well balanced meals, more whole grains, nuts, fruits and vegetables. 3.Substitute fruits for desserts.
4.Avoid caffeine. The substance may aggravate anxiety, insomnia, nervousness and trembling.
5.Reduce refined sugars. Excess sugars cause frequent fluctuation in blood glucose levels, adding stress to the body's physiological functioning.
6.Reduce alcohol and drugs. These substances may add to headaches and swelling, decrease coping mechanisms and add to depression.
7.Get a least 7 hours of sleep nightly.
8.Spend time each day with at least one relaxation technique - imagery, daydreaming, prayer, yoga or meditation.
9.Take a warm bath or shower.
10.Go for a walk.
11.Get in touch! Hug someone, hold hands, or stroke a pet. Physical contact is a great way to relieve stress.
----------
So when the next pilot comes in the office, showing all the signs of being stressed out, before you tell him to get some sleep, go for a walk, hug them - then duck

Juliet November

13th Oct 2000, 10:37

Just need to add my 2 pennies worth:
In my experience, which has dealt with crews from all over the planet, the vast majority is a nice bunch who only ask operationally well-funded questions. However, every now and then a hard head will waltz into your office, confident that he is the closet thing to God than man has seen for 2000 years. There is no way a mere mortal will ever convince him that anything he says, does, eats or breathes is anything but perfect, and that he ('cause it is NEVER a she) has every right to command your full attention to his every problem or concern. There is but one way to deal with these people: Professionally, cool, detached ! And when the (explicit) has vacated terra firma, make sure to write a nastygram to his chief pilot explaining how he corrupted your operation. Mind you, whilst the aircraft is on the ground, the flight deck crew must remain seated in their crew lounge, preparing whatever they need to and leave you alone to mind YOUR end of the business.

Smokin'

LocalLad

15th Oct 2000, 06:13

I've only been in the industry for four years, but I've enjoyed every moment of it (I probably haven't said thad that everyday, but it's true). Ok you do find some crew members that you just cannot get away with, it might be a clash of personalities. At he end of the day we have to grin and bear it. If you asked them to do your job, they would probably say no, because A. They dont know your job, and B. They probably do respect you for doing it, but do not show you that.

If they are having a bad day because of fog somewhere, they are probably thinking at least Ops will be pulling their hair out aswell, and vice-versa.

I've dropped some right bollocks in my time, one fairly recently. An aircraft diverted to Lille, so I put a flight-plan in departing from Lille. I then got a call off the crew to say there was no flight plan, here's me thinkg there definitely is, until I looked at the departure station....it wasn't Lille. I just appologised and that was the end of it, the Captains word were "Mistakes happen to everyone".

Keep smiling

KYGMSY

18th Oct 2000, 00:41

If that happened to me mate, the captain would say "OPS F**K UP AS USUAL". I've never heard a pilot say "mistakes happen". Usually "those b***ards on the ground got it wrong again" It's not often at all that we forget anything.

no sig

19th Oct 2000, 03:24

kygmsy
Either you're the problem or you've got particularly snotty bunch of crews, why don't you get out there with them and build some bridges.

KYGMSY

20th Oct 2000, 23:18

No sig

giving all the pilots the weekend off and going for an indian, night outs etc. didn't change a thing.

Cheers

Flanker

21st Oct 2000, 13:07

KYGMSY
What a whinger! You would make an excellent pilot!!

Flameout_No1

21st Oct 2000, 14:05

WELL !!! I've got to say; never have I heard so much envious drivel in all my life.
All these comments only confirm my suspicions that most ( not all ) op's people are only frustrated wannabe pilots who have these enourmous chips on their shoulders, far outweighing any senior pilot's eppaulettes that he/she may be sporting.
AH!! There will always be the do'ers and the
tryhards and my dear KYGMSY YOU ARE DEFINITELY THE LATTER.
Just do youself a favour and get another job
where your the boss and no-one will question anything you do ( howabout an owner-operator, as you already obviously qualify )
Obviously none of the flight crew have any faith in you, and its little wonder with your attitude.
SNAP OUT OF IT MAN!!

------------------
Play it again Sam, I said play it !

You splitter

21st Oct 2000, 16:09

Flameout... All Ops staff are frustrated wannabe's! I seriously hope this is not the view of the majority of aircrew about Ops bod's. If it is no wonder the poor boy has problems with his crew.

Envious....? Maybe sometimes, but only because airline senior management has always viewed Ops as a department that does nothing but cost, cost, cost.(At least thats the way it used to be when I sat in an Ops room.) They don't have that view of u lot. So, maybe, on the odd occasion, envious of that. But I have never wanted to be a pilot. I don't like the 'suitcase' lifestyle and I never grew up as a Kid dreaming of pushing buttons at FL300.

Having said that you do get a lot of PPL's "this could be my big break" types looking for jobs. Generally they make the worst Ops people in the world. And if any of them want to know why, in the words of a great Jedi.
"Your mind is always on where you are going, never where you are at now".

Regards,

[This message has been edited by You splitter (edited 21 October 2000).]

boredcounter

22nd Oct 2000, 03:30

Flame out no 1
Y A W N
Next time you ban your wife from from using the FTLS to get home, make sure you know the rules, cos the phukwit at my mob didn't...........he the pilot had to ask. chip on each shoulder........another of our pilots phoned to ask what side the football was on........11 buttons to dial, four on Teletext.......chip on each shoulder, no not us, Phuked off with having to wet nurse a small minority of drivers who could never do our jobs...............
Sim twice a year, big pressure, you fail you live, medical, twice a year, you fail, you get paid to recover, my real time job has just the same pressure..........
Oh I don't have a bit of paper that sais I'm a GOD, but you all tell me what a shyte job I do,
Wipe your own arses for once...........

edit to tone down

and by the way, next time you are told your slot is due arrivals restricions at your destination airfield, do you yell, "CAN YOU NOT REROUTE US"
Think about it.............To%%ER

Chip, .....................Yeah rightoh

[This message has been edited by boredcounter (edited 21 October 2000).]

Flameout_No1

22nd Oct 2000, 07:32

WIND.........WIND.........WIND.......WIND,
Gee you guys take yourselves too seriously.
Bwhaaaaahaaaaaaahaaaaahaaaa!!!!!!!!
Have a nice day!!!!

------------------
Play it again Sam, I said play it !

KYGMSY

22nd Oct 2000, 14:27

We have more pilot problems than ops problems. Remember guys, it's because of us that you do any flying at all.

Remember the joke :
What's the difference between god and pilots ?

God does not think he's a pilot.

boredcounter

23rd Oct 2000, 02:40

Flame
Don't know what it's like in the land of Oz,
WIND WIND WIND gets right up my nose......
I work twelve hours under undue commercial pressure to make my Airline work. That is my working day. Can I pass it on to you guys......Not in my country. If it wasn't for all those innocent fare payers straped into the same ally tube as the pilots, my standard response would be " you decide what's best SIR"
I console myself every night in the fact pilots are just like children, only children grow out of it.....................

Me, never want to learn to fly, could be sitting next to a TW£t for too long

------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle

Low life

23rd Oct 2000, 11:13

Flameout_No1

I've seen this post many times
When you've finished building your hours and get your first job as a junior F/O you will understand better

mayhem

23rd Oct 2000, 12:09

Ladies and Gentlemen on both sides of the great air/ground divide.
This is a team game and the objective is to get shiney plane from point A to point B with the minimum of casualties, and hopefully within an acceptable timeframe.
Both camps have a smattering of genius, a handful of idiots.
Its called the human condition, and its only a career choice that determines who sits where. QED.

You splitter

23rd Oct 2000, 16:38

Well said Mr.Mayhem.....

With a name like that you would be equally at home in the Ops room or the Flight deck! :)

KYGMSY

23rd Oct 2000, 22:43

Quote :

I console myself every night in the fact pilots are just like children, only children grow out of it.....................

Sadly it is so true.

Having said all the above, we have some absolutely fantastic pilots - I'm not trying to show myself as an anti-pilot guy.

exeng

27th Oct 2000, 03:34

KYGMSY,

You stated, <I'm not trying to show myself as an anti-pilot guy.> And yet you also said, <I console myself every night in the fact pilots are just like children, only children grow out of it.....................>

Seems fairly anti pilot to me, but then what the hell do I know, I'm only a pilot! I'm just going to ask my Mum to change my nappy before driving to work.

Regards
Exeng.

KYGMSY

27th Oct 2000, 23:10

What I'm implying is that there are pilots that take the p*** out of you saying we can't do our job and there are others who are always keen to do any flying, no hassle at all. These guys are great.

lalapanzi

28th Oct 2000, 01:50

So if I've read this right, as long as pilots don't question you & do whatever you tell me, they're the good guy all rest are just trouble makers.

Book yourself on the next crm course you're in need of it :mad:

exeng

28th Oct 2000, 04:43

Dear KYGMSY,

You stated, <What I'm implying is that there are pilots that take the p*** out of you saying we can't do our job and there are others who are always keen to do any flying, no hassle at all. These guys are great.>

Not quite sure just what point it is you are making. By the way, pilots take the p**s out of everybody. They take particular pleasure when winding up one of their colleagues. It's all just 'A JOKE'.

When I've planted one (again) I expect a giggle or two, that's life I'm afraid. Now you Chaps & Chappesses also make 'admin errors'. And guess what? We take the p**s. Well no harm done then, it's better that than an official complaint isn't it?

About the 'others' who who are always keen to do any flying, no hassle at all. Will you do any work, any time? Personally I will only do extra work if it a)pays, and b)if it convenient to me. Call me a fool but that is the way I play it.

Regards
Exeng

Flameout_No1

28th Oct 2000, 09:51

Right!!!!,
I'm going to take my bat and ball and go home.
You Op's guys are way to smart for little old antipodean me.
Just like a POM, no sense of humour.
I think I hear mummy calling.

------------------
Play it again Sam, I said play it !

boredcounter

29th Oct 2000, 02:37

Flame

Hope you come back, love to know, Abo or POM convict offspring?

------------------
Speak the truth,accept the truth.....and only use one handle

KYGMSY

29th Oct 2000, 14:11

Maybe you should read my initial post again. There are pilots who don't question anything, get on with the job and don't ask daft question i.e. have you filed flight plans ? We have a few of these type of pilots who we get on well with and there's the other minority that always moan and complain and question everything i.e. have you booked us into a hotel ? I have to have 2 days off within the next week. Will it fit in our fdp ?

See where I'm coming from yet ???

Flanker

29th Oct 2000, 21:31

I reckon I'm starting to get the picture!

You have some guys who'll fly for food and don't care too much about legality etc.

You have some other professional pilots who also have a life outside of work.

Give it a rest!!!

Mach.99

1st Nov 2000, 20:15

KYGMSY,

I believe that you need to look up to your belly, because if they ask you those type of questions is because there were previous incidents with you or with your mates over there;
If you want to play goods will to aviation that's fine, if you are being blamed for someone else I would suggest to grab the bull by the horns and show some professionalism for a change.

Do not take it personnal, but I hate when people start to criticise others as an excuse for not doing the job.

I forgot to present myself, I am Mach.99 and
I feel the need for speeeed!

Cheers!

Note:

KYGMSY

2nd Nov 2000, 00:44

Mach.99

I have always had flight plans filed, hotels, ground handling arranged etc etc....

Why they still check on all these things I do not know. It doesn't tie in with any of the above comments.

They complain that they never ( bollocks ) get given a crew brief - they always do they just always leave them on the pilots desk.

They get their plogs and forget them too. It's basic airmanship for pilots to check that they have all the necessary paperwork instead of realising at FL100 that they don't know which VOR they're going to next or which London airport they're going to.

Most replies in this topic have been down to professionalism. I Had a phone call from a pilot today asking to speak to ops manager. He was on another call and he asked me to pass a message on to him which was "can you ask him to find out how many pax were on return flight ?" How can the easiest question require an answer from the ops manager ??

Mach.99

2nd Nov 2000, 12:40

Hey KYGMSY,
I think the reason for that is they know that you do not count well....??
Some time ago you may had told them that the primary school was not for you but for the Ops Manager only!! :rolleyes:

I steel feel the need for speeed...!
Mach.99
Hicks?!

[This message has been edited by Mach.99 (edited 02 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mach.99 (edited 02 November 2000).]

Boss Raptor

2nd Nov 2000, 18:38

Nothing new in this scenario...at the end of the day you get nice pilots and nasty pilots...and nice ops guys and nasty ops guys...the way of the world.

Believe it or not early in my ops career at a major operator I had a Chief Pilot who would come in to the ops room and say 'Hello guys, how are you, I can see you are busy would you like a cup of coffee?'

And one fateful night when we had nine diversions etc. etc. he sat next to me and answered the phones, keeping the pressure away from us in op so we could resolve the mess.

When I made the move to flight deck and then back to airline management I never forget this...there is no easy answer but at the end of the day it is the end result that counts,job satisfaction and having fun also help of course!

Hunter58

3rd Nov 2000, 18:54

And I can tel you waht happens if a pilot really becomes too close to god (one-sided, certainly).

One of the companies that I consult had in general very good people in the flight deck, causing no problems at all, even if Hell went lose due to maintenance, weather, undecisive customers (that's someting quite usual in the cargo business) etc. etc. etc.

But there were a very few, that could make your life miserable. They new it all (even when they were almost arrested in India by customs officers), never were late ('that stupid cab driver did not find the cargo terminal - ah, Captain, you were supposed to check in at the passenger side!), and generally new soooo well how to fly an airplane, that the F/O usually called up the fleet captain and refused to fly with the guys another time...

That said, the spirited leader, considering himself to be the absolute picture of god and the best pilot ever, had to go to the sim. Guess what, he failed! Given a second chance, the guy shows up totally unprepared again (don't forget , he invented flying) and flunks it again. He's gone and noone shed a tear!

------------------
There's nothing like a three-holer...

Lozza

4th Nov 2000, 02:26

i'm with KYGMSY on this one 100%.the comments made to his initial post by members of the flightdeck fraternity only go to prove his point.you guys stay on the flightdeck-i doubt most of you could hack it in the real world.

lalapanzi

4th Nov 2000, 03:21

Yeah, & where is this 'real' world?
Another candidate for CRM.

exeng

4th Nov 2000, 05:28

Dear Lozza,

Your comment , <you guys stay on the flightdeck-i doubt most of you could hack it in the real world.>

I've lived in the real world for donkeys years. As an apprentice engineer for B.O.A.C., a ground engineer for the same, a Flight Engineer for B.A., an F/O for B.A., a Capt. for B.A.

Show me where the real world is then.

Perhaps it is time to leave this odd place.

Regards
Exeng

[This message has been edited by exeng (edited 04 November 2000).]

Secret Squirrel

7th Nov 2000, 18:49

Deary me, what a fuss!

It is generally well known who I work for and the guys there are a good bunch in the main. Certainly the lifers anyway. (with the possible exception of ONE who shall remain nameless).

Bredcounter writes:
"Phuked off with having to wet nurse a small minority of drivers who could never do our jobs..............."

Poor deluded soul. It would take me 4 weeks to learn your job but it would take you considerably more to get qualified in mine. I never tell OPS how to do their job. I do, however, feel at liberty to question certain decisions. If they don't like it TUFF!

KGMSY, it may sound very amusing to waltz into a flight deck and ask if the bugs have been set etc., except there's only one problem: you're not qualified to ask that question. You wouldn't know whether the pilots were telling the truth or not. So you should sit down, be silent, and speak when spoken to only.

The majority of ops guys are good at their job and they understand that we have certain responsibilities. We also have a thing called a licence which we don't want to lose because some pressurised Ops manager has to keep the show on the road. Would you deny that ocasionally (granted, rarely) you try it on with us and cajole us into flying outside of our limits?

KGMSY, Boredcounter, get a life or get a licence.

BTW, don't you have some hotacs to book or something?

------------------
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

Mach.99

8th Nov 2000, 03:31

Secret Squirrel,

Thank you very much for your comments. I believe those comments were exactly what K…. was expecting to hear from a Tuff professional like you?!

("Poor deluded soul. It would take me 4 weeks to learn your job but it would take you considerably more to get qualified in mine. I never tell OPS how to do their job. I do, however, feel at liberty to question certain decisions. If they don't like it TUFF!")

1. My experience tells me that, someone who speaks like you do not "survive" long enough to be released in any OOPS Department. I trained an ex-pilot which took me considerable amount of time and patience. Lesson nbr1 was how to do a flight plan. Lesson nbr2 was about I.T. and nbr3 What do the pilots need???!!
After two years he is doing OK..??!! But, that one was the first and the last one.
I can bet you that relatively speaking it will take less time a certified Ops person vs civilian ab-initio becoming a pilot than a certified commercial pilot vs certified Ops doing Ops.
My percentage!
2. The liberty to ask questions is in both directions, how we make them is another issue and decisions we all have to carry sometimes together.

("KGMSY, it may sound very amusing to waltz into a flight deck and ask if the bugs have been set etc., except there's only one problem: you're not qualified to ask that question. You wouldn't know whether the pilots were telling the truth or not. So you should sit down, be silent, and speak when spoken to only." )

3. Once again I disagree; There are pilots that need to be told to read the MEL and proceed immediately to the destination;

("The majority of ops guys are good at their job and they understand that we have certain responsibilities. We also have a thing called a licence which we don't want to lose because some pressurised Ops manager has to keep the show on the road. Would you deny that occasionally (granted, rarely) you try it on with us and cajole us into flying outside of our limits?)

("KGMSY, Boredcounter, get a life or get a licence.")

4. We all can buy Pieces of paper on the Market depending on the budget if it is yours or from your Parents. There are certified personnel with "things" every where which can be lost for one reason or another. Insurance might be an option to keep them.

So, Prestigious Operations Gentlemen and Intruders,

I do not agree with some K… points and I think he or his Department showed some problems that only one person can solve and certainly you (S.S.) are not the one, because your comments look like coming from a "Negro on the right seat flying with some s***t Airline in Europe…!"

S.S. make sure the needles are centred on your next ILS and please read the Notam´s before you go to bed. Sweat dreams.

I Steel feel the need for Speeeed…..!!!!!!!
Mach.99

Secret Squirrel

8th Nov 2000, 04:48

Mach 99, dear boy, do calm down. Could it be that those noble pilots' inability to grasp your modus operandum could be a reflection on your inadequate teaching abilities?. You see, a monkey can teach a monkey, hence why you can teach other 'normal people' to pick ants out of a log using a twig. However, put a monkey in charge of a pro like a pilot and of course he's not going to learn. Let's face it, we're much further up the evolutionary ladder than you and this thread demonstrates it all quite clearly.

Now run along and prepare some pilot briefings or something. Or better still, go and buy yourself a dictionary and learn to spell my language correctly.

Perspiring dreams to you too.

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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

You splitter

8th Nov 2000, 16:52

Ladies and Gents,

I'm afraid that what started off with some good discussion has, yet again, ended in nothing more than an eloquent display of chest beating (Whilst we are on the subject of Monkeys!).

We (Ops personnel) all know the stereotypical pilot, head up his own arse, shoulders puffed out with self importance, with an opinon that everyone else is trying to somehow climb out of the primordial soup.

And the flight deck have their own stereotypical Ops bod. Never knows what day of the week it is, resents them for being up there, not intelligent enough to get a proper job and slightly unbalanced due to the chips of differing severity on each shoulder!

As always, the seteotype bears little resemblance to the reality. If we were all as described above then God help the aviation industry. Or at least the Pax that travel with it.

Pilots, please don't assume we will respect you for the position you hold. We won't. We will respect you for your attitude, professionalisum, and the drinks you buy us after work.

Ops people, Don't assume every little dig at the system is a personal attack on you. The majority of flightdeck do respect the job you do, and would not be able to, or indeed want to hack it in the Ops room. (So they tell me!).

Respect and trust are two way traffic. Regardless of if you are a Chief pilot, low houred F/O, Ops Manager, Crewing Officer or the Ops gopher, don't expect trust or respect unless you are willing to grant the same to colleagues.

Those of you, on both sides, who are unable to do this should leave those of us who can to get on with operating a proffesional and happy ship.!

Amen.

waco

8th Nov 2000, 18:50

Well done "You Splitter" some excellent points very well made.

Yes all AIRCREW should have respect, that applies to pilots and junior aircrew. Alas that does not allways apply in both directions.

I have to say, my dealings with non-UK aircrew are Very interesting. They are ALLWAYS polite and often call us "Sir" not that I would every want that, but I have to say there is a huge difference between UK and non-UK aircrew (what does everyone else think?). When one is spoken to in such a way you really want to go that extra mile for them.

Secondly, the skills required to pilot an aircraft have changed fantastically over the last 60 years. The 19 year old guys who flew a lancaster to Berlin and back in 1943 with 200 hours total time - total heroes. Getting a DC-7 across the pond in January during the 1950's, hey thats class. You do not need the same skills to get a B777 across the pond today. Different, yes, but boy, its easier.

Thirdly, In those early post war days, when the aircraft left base the commander had so many other "external" tasks with his remitt which are now left to ops and crewing.

So to some up. Yes all aircrew positions should be treated with respect ( thats respect for the position not necessarily the individual). Times have changed and I don't think many UK aircrew appreciate that. We are ALL ONE TEAM now. Treat us well and you will be amazed what we can do for you.

PS I have noticed a current trend where Captains will try and get ops to make decisions which are undoubtedly only the Captains to make. So if its wrong....they have your name and can blame you !!!!
Would never of happened 15 years ago.
I'm happy to make those decisions, but only If I can have the captains pay.

KYGMSY

8th Nov 2000, 23:42

All pilots,

I suggest you all read the following from You Splitter's post :

We will respect you for your attitude, professionalisum, and the drinks you buy us after work.

Come on guys, if we both do our jobs properly there is no need for pilots to query stupid things like can we really take x number of pax ?? If we couldn't we obviously would not have taken the job on.

Waco - I for one always treat aircrew with the same respect they give me. Pilots who ask me SENSIBLE questions will receive an answer to the best of my ability / knowledge. Pilots who ask ridiculous questions I have little respect for as they think we can't do our job or are taking the piss. I often think with one particular pilot he thinks I don't know/can't do something because of my age.

<We are ALL ONE TEAM now. Treat us well and you will be amazed what we can do for you.>

This needs to be emphasised more.

Secret Squirrel :

<It would take me 4 weeks to learn your job but it would take you considerably more to get qualified in mine.>

Are you implying that our job is a piece of piss and yours is so highly ranked that you are only second to god ??.

Secret Squirrel

9th Nov 2000, 04:58

SECOND?!? Oh ye of little faith. ;)

Mach.99

10th Nov 2000, 04:50

DO NOT READ
For Secret Squirrel only, :)

I though you were clever enough to notice my foreign accent, you are curious, ha?
I am going to help you. ENGLISH IS NOT MY MOTHER TONGUE! All clear now? Good!
Although I am not French or German my accent his sufficient to make myself understandable to W****S like you besides I believe that I can write better English than you would be able to write or spell my Mother Tongue!

Which kind of pro are you? Not that I am interested in but I am starting to be concerned with your future? Shouldn't you be flying some where like a "real pro" which takes orders from the Left Seat? Or you prefer the Flight Simulator 2000?
Maybe your Chief Pilot told you to perform a proficiency check and instead of that, like a "bull**** pro" you decided to learn a little bit with Operations Forums? Don't you have a girl friend or a boy friend to play with? Do not make them sad and start reading those approach plates, unless you want to be on the 800 Clock news, like a "Another star".

Sweat dreams!
Mach.99

I steel feel the need for Speeeed?!

[This message has been edited by Mach.99 (edited 10 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mach.99 (edited 10 November 2000).]

Secret Squirrel

10th Nov 2000, 05:22

Look Guys, I recently found this forum and the first thing that came into my head was, "I bet I find an anti-pilot thread on here". Lo and behold my suspicions were well founded. So I thought, right, I'm gonna wind 'em up a bit. I could have gone for the moderate approach such as some have done here but KGMSY's approach was to pilot bash, so I thought I would OPS bash a little.

It may be a little late to be taken seriously but in reality I don't consider myself above anybody in my industry. You have your job to do and I have mine. I don't tell other people in my industry how to do their job. If I think they are hindering the progress of my day I ask for an explanation and don't use this as an excuse to ask SILLY questions. I rarely ask operations anything to do with their decisions such as A/C changes, or re-routing of flight plans etc. Sometimes I may ask out of interest later, but this is because I take an interest in how and why decisions are made, perhaps to better understand subsequent changes. Sometimes I call in and they say, "You're not going to do DUB now, you're off to NCE". I'm sorry but I like to know why. Not that it makes much difference I just like to be told, so they tell me. Also, if I'm flying in the air the last thing I want to do is get my OPS Manual out and check my duty times so I ask them to make sure that it can be done. I don't do this unless I'm sceptical. When I get on the ground I check for myself, but in the meantime it may have escaped their notice and they will have more time to execute any necessary changes.

What annoyed me about your thread, KGMSY, is that I find it banal to go on about a couple of individuals who might well be @rseholes even to me as if it were the norm. You get them in all walks of life and the pilot fraternity is certainly no exception and nor is the OPS fraternity.

Mach.99, don't take offence, I was joking and I'm sure you're not a monkey. In reality, I don't know how long it would take me to get proficient at your job. I guess it rather depends on the interest with which I might pursue it, that's as humble as you're gonna get.

We don't have to make split decisions EVERY day, mostly the days go very smoothly and in large part it has to do with everyone around us. We just turn up, press a few buttons, sign a few bits of paper, point the airplane in the right direction and off we go. I appreciate that you have a lot more hectic days than we do with temperamental planes, wx, and yes, troublesome captains and F/O's. I'm sure I don't have to patronise you all about our hectic days (infrequent as they might be), but I'm sure that on the odd ocasions that our training is really put to the test you are glad that you are on the ground.

This in no way excuses real idiots and KGMSY, I'm not sure you know what a real idiot is yet.

Hey, Mach.99 I've just read your post. i guess I deserved that and accept the slap with dignity. E-mail me and we can sort this out in a friendly way.

Regards, Secret Squirrel.

[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 10 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Secret Squirrel (edited 10 November 2000).]

You splitter

10th Nov 2000, 13:31

Secret Squirrel,

Not all of us took your comments that seriously. There is a reason you probably got jumped on. Normally anytime a pilot does come down here the only contribution we get is piss taking of one form or another. I guess we get fed up of it sometimes.
Nice to see a serious constructive post for a change.
Cheers

Juliet November

13th Nov 2000, 03:53

Secret Squirrel,

Damn glad for that last post of yours, was about to draw my light sword and hack your high-flying arse to pieces. But as I should have expected, you are most probably the kind of chap who has us OPS guys going the extra mile. You see, most of us actually like the job we do, most like your sort I guess. And belive you me, it's actuall fun when the s**t starts hitting the fan, a/c goes tech, weather closes in, back-up's are out of position and the stand-by crew's can't get into to work because some damn idiot turned his 18 wheeler tits up on the road blocking all access. This is when we earn our pay, and the last thing you really need in a situation like this is an obnoxious pilot asking stupid questions (like is my hotel near downtown, and are you sure it's a 5 star). Doesn't happen very often, but I've been asked that very question on occasion.

However, in general the coop between OPS & flightdeck is very proffessional and to the point. The no nonsens approach.

I know you were joking when you called us "frustrated wannabe's" (or similar). Well, must admit there is some truth in that. Quite a few OPS people only work there while they collect enough hours to jump ship for a flying job. Good for them, but the rest of us decided for various reasons to stick to the ground except when going on vacation or something. I don't envy you guys at all (but would like your pay-check though :-) ) for a number of reasons. Principal of which is that I can actually have a life outside of my work, and apart from week-ends always know where I'm going to sleep at night.

Glad we got the thread back on track.

PS. My native language is (surprisingly) not english. But only 4.5 million of the world population can read and talk my tongue, so for all praticial purposes I do manage getting the message across in your language. On the other hand, the percentage of babes in this part of the world is directly proportional to the tax rate. Probably the only thing that has kept me here :-)

Smokin'

Lozza

13th Nov 2000, 20:39

amidst all the "flightdeck are w*****s//ops are s**t" nonsense,thankfully now resolved before the imminent onset of claret,one highlt interesting point made by waco.
dunno if anyone else has found this but his comments about johnny foreigner flightdeck crew being more receptive/professional/polite etc. definitely rang true in my ears.
without wishing to start any more aggro,seems that they definitely require less mollycoddling than their UK counterparts.
anyone else have experience of this and any suggestions why ?

Mach.99

13th Nov 2000, 20:54

Secret Squirrel
I just read your post.
I am glad to know you a little bit better.
Happy Landings,
Cheers!

Mach.99
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif
I steel feel the need for Speeed!

Harry Wragg

13th Nov 2000, 21:28

And they all lived happily ever after!

PPRuNe Towers

14th Nov 2000, 01:52

Merely a suggestion Lozza but if you're thinking particularly of US crews their despatchers are trained, examined and licenced. The subjects covered mean weather, weight and balance and performance issues are discussed (in the technical sense) amongst equals

There is a depth to their knowledge that may well ensure greater mutual respect.

------------------
Regards from the Towers

[email protected]

waco

14th Nov 2000, 02:24

Far be it from me P.Towers, but this humble UK based ops guy has :
1 FAA Flight Dispatchers licence from an American University
2 PPL
3 16 years in the business
4 1000 hours on the flight deck jump seat.
(sad I know, but I've logged them)
5 Lots of nice UK O and A level passes
etc....etc...etc...
Therefore I assume from your comment that I SHOULD have "knowledge that ensures a greater mutual respect"

My level of "knowledge" is not unique in the ops room, I could easily name many collegues with frozen ATPL IR,class 1 degrees etc.

I really don't want to fall out but in my humble experience those non UK guys, especially those from the "new world" really are more polite and friendly to deal with.

Appreciate your thoughts....

Oh and by the way, most of us are desperate to obtain a JAR licence with similar standing to the FAA flight dispatch, ie ATPL level.

Juliet November

14th Nov 2000, 09:14

Well if you think that UK crews in general are worse than others (not my opinion BTW) then you should try a belgian for size. Man do they suffer from the "4-stripe syndrom" in a big way. However, applying a detached and professional approach does help. That and having all your stuff correctly prepared will carry you a long way, even with the most hot-headed flyguy.

Smokin'

Flameout_No1

14th Nov 2000, 16:57

WHY ALL THIS BACKSLAPPING, BOOT LICKING, LOVEY DOVEY HYPE?? We all know Ops guys are so blatantly envious of us pilots, its really a waste of time trying to explain to them why our roles are more valued and dare I say it superior.
There is no comparison in the skills required to command a large jet aircraft, compared to the paper shuffling they so often whinge and complain about having to do.
GO ON get a license (if you're up to it) and then maybe, just maybe you'll have some credibility when it comes to discussing aviation with the professionals.

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Play it again Sam, I said play it !

Lozza

14th Nov 2000, 17:44

flameout-you've just proved my point about UK flightdeck.nice one.

exeng

15th Nov 2000, 07:04

Flameout,

Your comment, <our roles are more valued and dare I say it superior.> With a comment like that you are very likely to be flamed out.

I'm embarrassed for you! Very chidish typing.

Have you ever stopped to think how different it would have been if you didn't get the 'breaks' that you did. (Oh I know you worked hard for it, so did I). We are not 'superior' people, just people who worked hard and got the breaks.

There are very many other people out there who could do our jobs as well as us, or better.

I, for one, am thankful.

G'Day
Exeng

waco

16th Nov 2000, 18:32

Flameout

Do you fly, or just type and follow a purple line?
Best of luck with a CRM course.
There are good guys and prats on the ground and in the air.

Oh and best of luck with the cosmic radiation.

KYGMSY

16th Nov 2000, 23:23

Flameout must be a wannabe himself as I can't see a REAL pilot with that attitude. I'm sure a guy from ops would have already knocked f*** out of him. Maybe he flies PA28's for a living...

JB007

18th Nov 2000, 03:04

Flamout,
I'd like to meet you one day....

Waco,
Awww bless...
You must have been logging jumpseat rides since the "Brown" B737's....
Are the other lads at Parkhurst aware of this...? Opened the floodgates for major p!sstaking or what.....

See you later
007

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Hear All...See All...Say Now't.

waco

19th Nov 2000, 15:48

Hey JB
I'm not bothered!

What does worry me, is that I once had a
great flight deck visit on a comet. A bet you did'nt realise I was that old.

Are you officially a bronze god yet ?

KYGMSY

24th Nov 2000, 02:08

I've had pilots phoning now asking me for pax figures. Maybe they've all read this topic.

If it happens again, I'll be phoning the captain on his mobile, asking to speak to the F/O, and tell him to land back with a certain fuel quantity. See it does work both ways. Surely I don't have to have any qualifications for this do I Secret Squirrel ? ( Page 2 ).

"it may sound very amusing to waltz into a flight deck and ask if the bugs have been set etc., except there's only one problem: you're not qualified to ask that question. You wouldn't know whether the pilots were telling the truth or not." We wouldn't ask the question if we didn't know what the right answer would be. We are wannabe's. This is the perfect way to get into the aviation industry and so we learn things about the aircraft we operate to help us in the future when we go for the ARB's.