Schragge Musik!

[hoggsnortrupert]

The Germans had some their JU 88' night fighters equipped with a pair of 20mm Cannon, mounted in the top of the A/C, (Vertically).
The pilots of the type referred to this very effective contraption , as Schragge Musik!
(Forgive my spelling)
My Q is: Can anyone tell me what the english translation of Schragge Musik is?
Chr's:ok:
H/Snort

[diginagain]

IFAIK, literally translated it means 'slanted music', the German for Jazz.

[zlin77]

Believe they were angled up at 30 degrees from horizontal. So just position behind and below the target at the right distance and altitude...

[henry crun]

zlin77: What I have read says there was vertical and lateral angular displacement

If the fighter had been just behind and below it might well have been showered by the wreckage of the bomber it had just destroyed.

[RETDPI]

A variety of German and Japanese WW2 aircraft were fitted with variations on this theme.
As for the Brits.....
There was the "Sunflower" Hurricane with an upwards firing rocket battery mounted aft of the cockpit.
I would be interested if anybody has any more details of this project.

[Kerosene Kraut]

Diggin's right.

It's "Schräge Musik".

[DC10RealMan]

"Schrage Musik" was developed as a pair of 20mm cannon at 70 degrees from the horizontal. The pilot with the aid of a reflector sight flew the night fighter underneath the bomber safe from the mid-upper and tail gunners (RAF Bomber Command aircraft did not have belly gunners) and camouflaged against the darker earth. The pilot would open fire into the wing fuel tanks between the outer and inner engines on either wing in an attempt to to set the aircraft on fire without being exposed to return fire from the two gunners or the dangers of the bombload exploding and destroying the nightfighter as well.

[diginagain]

Thanks, KK - couldn't find an umlaut on my Norwegian keyboard!

[hoggsnortrupert]

RETDPI:
How on earth did it aquire this name?
Digin's:
Thanks heaps, "Slanted Musik" I can only admire the term for the period:
And no doubt, the humour behind the term/title.
Chr's
H/Snort:ok:

[RETDPI]

Why the "Sunflower" Hurricane ?
Allegedly because of the explosive manner that the sunflower uses to eject its seeds.
I do believe that the project reached physical form -either a mock-up or prototype.
A bit of thread drift, but at the same time the "Slanted/Jazz Music" name was explained to me by a German I also got the explanation for the Ju 88- "Stortebakker" ( Excuse spelling etc.) intruder aircraft.

He was a famous old German pirate.

[chiglet]

The Luftwaffe had Scharage Musik fitted in several a/c types, with both 20 and 30mm cannons. They were fitted in the fuselage of twin engined nightfighters, JU 88, Bf110, He119 Uhu (not sure of the 119 bit) [The Radio Operator re-armed them]. Also fitted to [some] FW190s [three per wing].
ALL installations were between 60-70 degrees from the horizontal.
You sat back in the bombers "blind spot"
watp,iktch

[Kitbag]

Chig, both Focke Wulf 189 and Heinkel 219 were called Uhu. The FW 189 was primarily a recconaisance aircraft, but several were modified to act as night fighters with radar and a Schrage Musik installation. The Heinkel was a dedicated high speed fighter, again equipped with radar and some were modified to have the upward firing cannon. Would be interested if you have any further detail re the FW 190 variant, I have never heard of this arrangement on a single engine fighter (especially in the wings).

Regards

Kb

[chiglet]

Kitbag,
Yes, I did mean the He219...[muppet] :ugh:
I think that the FW190 was in "Fighters of the Third Riech" [a Huge book, which someone borrowed.....permanently :mad:]
But I have seen other references to the FW...can't think where, at the mo.
I didn't know that the Schalke was so modded [no google, just [a bad?] memory
watp,iktch

[Footless Halls]

How should I know? But I can't remember reading of an upward firing installation on an FW190. Also, though they were used on ('scuse my German) 'wilden sau' night operations of opportunity, surely it was primarily a day fighter.
How those guys flew aircraft with such massive engines at night from unlit fields I'll never know.

[chiglet]

The same way the Hurricanes and Defiants did.....brave beggars:ok:
watp,iktch

[RETDPI]

There was IIRC an upwards firing mortar type mount in a fuselage installation tested on the FW 190. This was for day use against bombers however, and was triggered by a photosensor as the fighter flew through the bombers optical shadow......
In addition I recall that there was a wing mounted vertical rocket system also tried . This however fired downwards as an anti-tank weapon. Work was certainly done on triggering similar systems by sensing the tank's magnetic field. It all never sounded exactly habit forming to me!

[Double Zero]

I always thought it translated as ' Night Music ' which might make more sense - a version was fitted on the ME163 with a battery of upward firing rockets - once armed, as I thought in all these systems, they fired automatically by dint of a Selenium ( ie camera light meter ) sensor as soon as the attacker got under the 'shadow' of a bomber.

From what I've read it worked surprisingly well, I suppose it let the pilot get on with flying / surviving...

[jumpseater]

The ME410 also had similar installation, heres some pics of a model showing the cannons.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/2012images/stuff/IMG_5862.jpg

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/2012images/stuff/IMG_5858.jpg

[henry crun]

Double Zero: No mention "Night" in this reference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%A4ge_Musik

[chiglet]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but just Where are the "Upwards firing cannon" on that Me410. I can see the "Barbets" [sp], but that's it.
Nice model BTW.
watp,iktch

[Load Toad]

Indeed they are defensive guns on the 410 though no doubt they could be used to attack from below.

A quick Google Image search gives loads of pictures of various installations:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Schr%C3%A4ge+Musik&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

[LowNSlow]

LoadToadThe barbettes on the Me210 and 410 were purely defensive armament. It would be far easier to attack a target using the forward facing guns that were thoughtfully provided by the designers rather than attempt to get into a position to use the rear facing barbettes. :)

Kitbag I don't think the FW 189 with it's little 465hp Argus engines and a top speed of 217mph would have been much use as a night fighter. They did attempt to make a single seat ground attack version called the FW189C though. I don't think it got much further than the prototype stage as the Ju87G was a much more effective machine with it's two 37mm cannon which gave it the nickname Panzerknacker (tankbuster).

[Load Toad]

I think LowNSlow you missed the bit where I said 'Indeed they are defensive guns on the 410 though no doubt...':ooh:

[Selfloading]

An obliging chap a Cosford showed me how the barbettes could be tilted so that they were pointing straight up, I imagine it would have been no problem to use them Schrage Musik style.

[rolling20]

DC10 REALMAN..Not true that Bomber Command didnt use belly guns..The early marks of Wellington did have a 'dustbin' turret, but was only deployed in combat as it had a huge drag effect on the aircraft.
6 Group (Canadians) did i believe fit some sort of belly armament to their aircraft later in the war.

[RETDPI]

Apparently the Me 210/410 defensive barbettes could be elevated or depressed 70 deg. They were controlled by a pistol grip system by the observer.
As this guy was rear facing.....

[dakkg651]

According to my references, I can find no record of the Me410 ever being utilised as a night fighter. The remotely operated barbettes were purely for defensive purposes during its role as a fast night bomber.

The first Schrage Musik installations were carried out unofficially by experienced night fighter pilots such as Helmut Lent which included a Revi reflector sight mounting in the cockpit roof. It wasn't until four months later that factory produced installations became available - and only then to the 'Experten'. Aim was normally taken on the area between the inner and outboard engines of the British four engined bombers to set alight the fuel tanks situated in this area and to avoid detonating the bomb load - especially the Halifax which had wing bomb cells fitted to the area between fuselage and the inner engines. The upward firing cannons used non-tracer ammunition and so Bomber Command remained unaware of this weapon for a long time. Most surviving aircrew were convinced they had been hit by flak.

Interestingly, the first installation of an upward firing gun fitted to an aircraft, I believe, was the fitting of a COW gun to a Fe2b in 1916. This was a large calibre recoiless gun produced by the Coventry Ordinance Works and intended, not as a bovine killer but as a Zeppelin destroyer. It was unsucessful due to problems with re-loading in the air.

[Load Toad]

You can check this thread out cos I asked similar questions a couple of years back:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=203535

[Load Toad]

And this inner bad either:
http://www.histavia21.net/MAN217/do217-%20N1.htm

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Kitbag/Chiglet, pretty sure ''Uhu'' was German for ''owl''. you can see why the a/c might have got the name

[brain fade]

Who says the Germans have no sense of humour?:ouch:

[chiglet]

Chiglet, pretty sure ''Uhu'' was German for ''owl''.
Yep, I knew that, but don't you think that it is a bit daft to have the same name/nickname for two such diverse types?
Whereas the Luftwaffes' own "wooden wonder" [Ta154] was called the Moskito...nice touch :ok:
Now, a slight thread drift....without using any search engines...what was a "Fred"?
watp,iktch

[CoodaShooda]

chiglet

From distant memory, wasn't that the allied code word for FW-190's, from the South West Pacific Area's code book?

Same memory bank seems to recall Schragge Musik was the brainchild of an NCO fitter serving with one of the early Bf110 night fighter squadrons.

[Kitbag]

LowNSlow: Kitbag I don't think the FW 189 with it's little 465hp Argus engines and a top speed of 217mph would have been much use as a night fighter. They did attempt to make a single seat ground attack version called the FW189C though. I don't think it got much further than the prototype stage as the Ju87G was a much more effective machine with it's two 37mm cannon which gave it the nickname Panzerknacker (tankbuster).


See here: http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW3/fw189-002.jpg It is clearly equipped both with LN2? radar and upward firing weapons. Size isn't everything:O

[hoggsnortrupert]

Jumpseater:
What make of model manufacturer, and where did you purchase it, what scale?
No ones commented on the TA 152??
Chrs'
H/Snort.:ok:

[LowNSlow]

Kitbag Size isn't everything but speed is :ok: I see the radar array but I suspect that the gun pointing upward is just the rear defensive machine gun hangining in it's mounting. Could the radar have been used for shipping attack as the FW189 could carry 4 x 250kg bombs if memory serves me right? I don't think the top speed of 217 mph would allow it to readily catch the bomber stream cruising at around 200mph to easily. Even the Ju-88s and Me-110s needed water/methanol injection to give a boost to performance to overcome the significant drag of the radar arrays.

hogsnortrupert When he designed the Ta-154 it appears that Kurt Tank didn't seem to understand wood like de Havilland did as the gluing methods employed damaged the adjoining wood and compromised the structural integrity. Tank cancelled production after 8 prototypes, 7 pre-production airframes and 10 serial production airframes had been made. The better glue he was waiting for never materialised. Herr Tank did a cracking job of modifying his original FW-190 design to make it into the Ta-152 high altitude fighter though.

[RETDPI]

The FW189A Schrage Musik mod ( Lichtenstein C-1 Radar and a single 20mm cannon) was to go after Po2s that were on night interdiction.
They were apparently operated by 1./ NJG 100 out of Greifswald into about February 1945.

[chiglet]

Cooda, Yep, a fully marked up FW190 flown by the Japanese foe evaluation purposes, Do you want to set the next braincell teaser?
watp,iktch

[RETDPI]

"FRED" was also the ASCC designator for the P-63 Kingcobra - which was in service with the Soviet Union. Then there was the Eric Clutton FRED........
But isn't all this drifting way off thread?

[Kieron Kirk]

It all adds to the fount of knowledge.
FRED-Flying Runabout Experimental Design.

[RETDPI]

That's why its spelt in capitals.
Time for a FRED Thread?

[Kitbag]

LowNSlow If you look at the tailboom you'll see it has Eastern Front tactical markings. Seems there was a need to defend in the East as well as the West. As RETDPI indicates it was a single weapon. The defensive MG installation was a 7.62 weapon (latterly a double weapon installation) the weapon in the photo is clearly of larger calibre.

[jumpseater]

I can find no record of the Me410 ever being utilised as a night fighter
The main operational night fighter version of the Hornisse was the Me 410 A-2/U2, fitted with nose radar aerials, a 50 mm BK 5 nose cannon for bomber destroyer purposes, two MG 17 machine guns and two 20 MG 151 cannons in an all-front armament configuration, except for the rear MG 131 barbettes. This was one of the most wonderful gun configurations of the Hornisse because of its tremendous destruction power. The BK 5 was a troublesome cannon for its automatic reloading system jammed easily; even though, a single round could bring down a four engine bomber hit in any part from a 1000 yds.
Some units non specialised in night interception duties used Me 410 Zerstörers for special night missions. Among these units was V./KG 2 which had its first casualty in Me 410 on the night of 13-14 July 1943; it was Feldwebel Zwissler’s and Oberfelbwebel Raida’s U5+KG, shot down by a Mosquito NF XII of No 85 Squadron. Also V./KG 2 (U5+) and 14./KG 2 used Me 410 Bs (U5+) in night attack operations. Oblt. Abrahamczik’s Me 410 had painted in black its undersurfaces for this purpose; he was the squadron leader of 14./KG 2.
I can recall reading accounts of RAF aircrew, night bomber crew specifically, reffering to attacks from these, in the latter part of the war. Certainly the Barbettes were conceived as defence but were also it appears used 'offensively'.
I no longer have the instructions for the kit, but one of the colour schemes was as far as I recall for a night fighter unit, it was built a good few years ago now.
Hogs, its a Revell 1/48'th scale model built by myself as a test piece, I think it's still available.

[rotorfossil]

The FW 190 installation was a test for a similar installation on the ME 163. The FW had two barrels in each wing holding 50mm HE recoilless shells, designed by Dr Langweiler who designed the Panzerfaust anti tank weapon. These were fired electrically by a light sensitive cell. The Me 163 was meant to have 5 barrels.

[Brian Abraham]

Interesting thread and have poked around for clarification on the 190. Wilde Sau (wild boar) refers to the concept thought up by Hans-Joachim "Hajo" Herrmann, day fighters would be sent up and look for the bombers from the light of flares dropped from light bombers, searchlights set to a wide beam or illuminating lower clouds, or the fires on the ground below. A few Wilde Sau night-fighters were actually fitted with "FuG-217 Neptun" radar, with the transmitting aerials on the aircraft's spine and receiving antennas on the nose and wings. This scheme went no farther than operational trials, possibly because the workload of trying to fly the aircraft and read the radarscope at the same time was simply too high for a single-seat aircraft.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/1920005.jpg

A-8/F-8 series airframes were often used for different armament and equipment testing. Unfortunately, only a small part of the documentation concerning these tests survived, making it impossible to describe in detail all of the modifications and resolve some the contradictory information. In spite of this, we know of the following armament modifications:

1. SG 113 Zellendusche - 3-tube battery based on the MK 103 cannons mounted in the rear fuselage. Firing was made by a photosensor impulse. - SG 117 Zellendusche - 6-tube modification of the previously described battery.

2. Rohrblock 108 - similar construction with 7 tubes based on the elements of the MK 108 cannon, fired by photosensor impulse. Probably, it consisted only of MK 108 cannons barrels with a single cartridge; after firing of the first barrel others were fired automatically by the recoil force of previous barrel. This kind of armament was used for bombers interception and was tested on the Fw 190A-8 (W.Nr. 733713), prototype designation V74.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/1910004.jpg

Anti Tank - Doubled SG 113 A Forstersonde missile launchers were mounted obliquely inside the wings directed downward. Firing performed automatically using Forstersonde magnetic field detection principle, when the plane flew low (30 feet) over a tank. In October 1944, at the research facility FGZ (Forschungsansalt Graf Zeppelin) this device was mounted on the prototype Fw 190 V75 (W.Nr. 582071) and W.Nr. 586586 planes. In December 1944, the system was also mounted on the Fw 190 (W.Nr. 933452). This system was found to have low accuracy, so development was abandoned.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/1900003.jpg

For the anti bomber role aircraft were fitted with,

R1 field conversion - The outboard MG 151/20 cannons were removed and gun pods mounted under each wing with a pair of 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons in each, giving a total weight of fire of six 20 mm and two 7.9 mm guns. This conversion reduced speed by 25 mph and range by 19 miles.

R2 field conversion - Replacement of the R1 20mm gun pods with a 30mm MK 108 cannon under each wing. (not to be confused with the R3 conversion which was a long barrel slow firing 30mm MK 103 cannon for anti tank use).

R6 field conversion - Installation of a pair of WGr. 21 (21 cm) mortar-rocket tubes under the wings.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/1920006.jpg

The best, and seemingly most accurate, 190 site I found is http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/stuff_eng_fw190_01.htm

rotorfossil - could find no mention of 50mm. do you have further info. One thing the Germans certainly did with the 190 was experiment and innovate.

[brickhistory]

As this thread seems to wind about a bit, let me QC Brian's

This scheme went no farther than operational trials, possibly because the workload of trying to fly the aircraft and read the radarscope at the same time was simply too high for a single-seat aircraft.

unless you were a USN F6F-3(N). So combine single-seat fighter plus working the radar plus carrier ops.

I believe the USMC got some of their night fighter Corsairs operational before VJ Day as well.

[rotorfossil]

Brian Abraham
Details of the vertical 50mm weapons in "Rocket fighter" by Mano Ziegler, Chapt 15, picture opposite p.98. The problem was that the operational Me163's weren't having much success as the high closing rate gave sighting problems and the short endurance meant only one powered pass.
The 190 trials were just to prove concept.These were successful against a fabric target stretched between two balloons except that the muzzle blast cracked the canopy.
On the 163, 5 barrels were arranged slightly angled fanwise and a short delay charge in each pair of barrels prevented airframe damage. Unfortunately on the first test, the delays were inadvertently not loaded and all 10 went off together, probably triggered by a patch of mist. Result - scratch one Me 163 and an injured pilot. This all in 1945, so too late for production.

[LowNSlow]

kitbag / RETDPI I'd forgotten about the Russian night ops. :\ Going after the PO2 night bombers makes much more sense given the speed differential between the two types :ok: