Come The Revolution

[Pulp Fiction]

I've just returned to the UK after spending a fortnight's holiday in Oregon. I haven't flown a single engine piston aircraft for years and so, when I saw a small airfield close to where we were staying, I said to my wife that I'd like to go up and have a fly round. The scenery was spectacular and I just thought that it would be fantastic to see it from the air. I went in and made the usual enquiries about fees etc., and I was amazed at how cheap it seemed. It was even less than I used to pay when I was training in England back in the early nineties, I hired a pristine Cessna 172, complete with instructor, for $85.00 per hour. That equates to approximately £42.50!

I've just got back in from a four sector day and the young, recently qualified FO that I was flying with was telling me that 18 months ago he was paying approximately £115.00 per hour for the same aircraft to train in the UK and with an instructor you can add another £15.00 to that bill:eek:
You have to ask yourself why there is such a massive difference in costs between the USA and the UK. People will point out to such things as landing fees, approach fees, fuel costs and so on, I know this. But what it really all comes down to in the end is that the value of anything is simply the price that the majority of people are willing to pay that makes a company the maximum profit. In Britain we are overpriced horrendously for many things without any reasonable justification and obviously flight training is included, but I never realised it was such a huge difference.

Here's what I propose you do about it. From a certain date, any date that you decide, make sure that no one pays for a flying lesson, hires an aircraft or takes an air test for at least one week. Let the GA airfields and flight schools across Britain fall silent. If that boycott doesn't bite hard enough then take another date and do the same again for two weeks.

I bet that the cost of your training will drastically reduce, you will have demonstrated that you are not prepared to be blatantly ripped off like this anymore. One or two weeks out of your training schedules won't be money lost either because if you are successful you will have a much reduced fee for the rest of your training. Show them that you are not just cash cows and start a revolution, a price war where you, the customer, are driving down the costs to the reasonable level of your American counterparts:ok:

I'm off now to get some :zzz: I just had to write this when I realised how exploiting the UK flight training industry is.

[paco]

You are certainly correct about rip-off britain (if I need cheap computer bits I simply go to germany, and how come groceries are way cheaper in Lanzarote where they have to ship them in?), but I suspect the rip-off comes from higher up the scale, from people who simply don't care whether we fly or not.

Phil

[152wiseguy]

I'm not sure that this would really work. I've worked for a reasonable sized flying school and they really don't make much on the rates that Pulp is posting. As paco says the problem isn't at the flying school level it's a lot higher up the food chain. :ugh:

[Pulp Fiction]

152Wiseguy I agree with you, but here's the deal: if the flying school doesn't make any profit from the flight training it cannot pay the people 'higher up the chain' therefore the effect will definitely be felt. We all know that the total rip off starts with the CAA, filters down to the airfields (approach fees, landing fees etc.) then onto the flying schools (who then have other extortionate fees that they have to pay) before it finally comes out of your wallet. If you cut off the supply at source, hey presto.....nobody makes any profit anymore & they have to reduce their 'cut' and hence it's more affordable for the trainee/private pilot.

E.g. I want a Latte from Starbucks & I'm prepared to pay £1.10 for it. Starbucks can make a profit from £1.00. HIGHER UP THE FOOD CHAIN SAYS, "we have to make sure that Starbucks charges at least £1.25 for the Latte because we are greedy, all consuming bastards who do nothing for our money but rip off our people." I was prepared to pay £1.10 & we would all have been happy but at the fee of £1.25 I'm not buying coffee. The result is that I walk away thirsty, Starbucks loses revenue, and HIGHER UP THE FOOD CHAIN also loses out. It would have been far better to get the 10p on top rather than the big fat zero that their ludicrous rip off demands.

Stop being ripped off, organise a date of not flying for a given time and you will all reap the rewards. Good luck, do it and stop being taken for a ride:ok:

[Groundloop]

Except of course that there are enough people willing to pay £1.25 so they easily cover the odd £1.10 lost by the hundreds of extra 15p they take.

Not a very good example, I think.

Also not discussed is one reason certain things in the UK are more expensive than in the States is VOLUME. The market in the States is soooo much bigger than in the UK that certain costs can be spread out whereas in the UK these costs have to be recouped from a much smaller source. Not the whole story but does contribute to some of the higher charges.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Here's what I propose you do about it. From a certain date, any date that you decide, make sure that no one pays for a flying lesson, hires an aircraft or takes an air test for at least one week.

Well, give it a few more weeks and the Wx will be standard British, meaning little of no activity anyway. Unlike the most parts of the US where its usually flyable all year round. :p

GA is its own worse enemy, I don't know hardly any professional pilots who bother flying for fun here anymore. Far too expensive and totally pointless, landing fees are a joke, to many "chips on shoulders" attitudes, the general service you get is shocking and the aircraft are usually older than ones self.

[Bandit650]

I really resent the premium us UK pilots have to pay for the honour of flying above our land in training aircraft from schools/clubs, and the sound of some sort of "class action" (for want of a better phrase) seems very tempting. Where exactly does the money we pay go anyway??? I would be very interested in look at the %breakdown of a typically hourly school rate. I hear lots of rhetoric about airfield charges/landing fees/fuel but if anyone can furnish us accurate detail on this I personally would find it very enlightening.

Whilst I'm at it, I would also like to throw in a sniffle at the general lack of true "self hire" organisations where you can arrive at a specific time and know the aircraft is actually present (i.e not long overdue) and fueled as per your request and ready to fly. We pay very high rental rate and, IMHO, get a raw deal on service in general. The FTOs from where I have hired from in recent times have a large fleet and should be able to offer a better service to their customers. Turning up and finding the aircraft is still covered, with hardly any fuel, missing entries in the log, low on oil, low battery and thus requiring an hour of sorting out before you get anywhere near the ignition is not good enough and I've regularly experienced all of the above (all in one slot once!).

Rant complete. Runway vacated.

[Genghis the Engineer]

UK: Punitive property taxes on hangars, briefing rooms, etc.
US: State subsidised airfields

UK: Weather allowing VFR flying ~250 days per year
US: Weather allowing VFR flying ~350 days per year (in much of the continental US if not all)
(Assuming that fixed running costs around about 50% of the cost of running an aeroplane, that's just added about 15% to the cost of running an aeroplane.)


UK: Fuel £1.30/litre
US: Fuel ~$4/gallon (about £0.52/gal)
(So at 30 litres/hr of a typical 4-seat aeroplane, that's worth £23/hr difference)


UK: Aircraft parts mostly imported from US
US: Aircraft parts mostly made locally
(Add 17.5% import duty to the parts, plus cost of shipping - I'd guesstimate that's just added around 4% to the cost of running your aeroplane.)

UK: Ever shrinking military
US: Large military turning large numbers of skilled people out into the labour market without their having to pay their own training costs.
(Hard to quantify, but it must have an effect)

UK: Typically 25-30 days paid leave per year
US: Typically 10 days paid leave per year.
(So, assuming a similar working week, that's added 8% to your labour costs with nothing else accounted for)

UK: CAA required to charge for everything
US: FAA paid for from central taxation.
(Ever looked at the CAA scale of charges for licences, tests, flying instructor revalidations, AOC inspections, airfield licence renewals... All of this ends up on your flying bill. On the other hand, in the USA they must be paying it, it's just invisible.)

Plus the cost of living is rather higher in the UK, so people (FIs, mechanics, engineers, cleaners, the lot) all have to be paid more in the UK to live.

None of which is about company profits I'm afraid, which I think are fairly similar both sides of the pond - possibly slightly better in the USA. But does, IMHO, explain why flying is so much more expensive over here than over there.

That said, those of us who buy shares in aeroplanes in the UK, and don't mind doing a bit of aeroplane cleaning and maintenance ourselves aren't paying that much more than renting in the US. I fly a very nice 4 seat taildragger for around £65/hr over here - including my monthlies; and I'm sure that I'm not unusual in that- I know of several C152 (or similar) syndicates where around £45/hr would be about right if you flew 3+ hours per month.


So, I think it's a combination of taxation, fuel company profiteering, weather, employment culture and geography. I really wouldn't blame the FTOs for much of it.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

I really resent the premium us UK pilots have to pay for the honour of flying above our land in training aircraft from schools/clubs, and the sound of some sort of "class action" (for want of a better phrase) seems very tempting. Where exactly does the money we pay go anyway??? I would be very interested in look at the %breakdown of a typically hourly school rate. I hear lots of rhetoric about airfield charges/landing fees/fuel but if anyone can furnish us accurate detail on this I personally would find it very enlightening.

Whilst I'm at it, I would also like to throw in a sniffle at the general lack of true "self hire" organisations where you can arrive at a specific time and know the aircraft is actually present (i.e not long overdue) and fueled as per your request and ready to fly. We pay very high rental rate and, IMHO, get a raw deal on service in general. The FTOs from where I have hired from in recent times have a large fleet and should be able to offer a better service to their customers. Turning up and finding the aircraft is still covered, with hardly any fuel, missing entries in the log, low on oil, low battery and thus requiring an hour of sorting out before you get anywhere near the ignition is not good enough and I've regularly experienced all of the above (all in one slot once!).

Rant complete. Runway vacated.

That's just lousy customer service - but to be fair(ish) to the UK, I've had much worse service than that at at-least one US FBO.

G

[Finals19]

Agreed with Bandit650. I have been to several FBO's in the states where we have uplifted minimal fuel, and their peripheral services (i.e. pilots lounge, refreshments, even a loaner vehicle to pop down the local restaurant / town for an hour or so) are on a different level to any UK airfield I have ever visited. So then why is it that the fundamental basics like having your a/c ready for flight, fuelled etc and not with a list of (admittedly legal but deferred) defects are often phenomena at UK schools?

As for the price thing - there WAS a price war a few years back at Cranfield - Bonus and Flyteam were involved IIRC and for a while the C150/152's were booking out at mid £60's/hour - admittedly money down up front, but a good deal nonetheless. Quite simply with many airfields with more than one school, its a case of collusion in price fixing.

It would indeed be very interesting to see a break down of running costs for (say) a C152 and C172 (or equivalent) Anbody care to?

[Grass strip basher]

Good posts Genghis

My observation would be that it doesn't appear to me that your average grass roots flying club in the UK is exactly rolling in cash... in fact exactly the opposite many struggle to make the books balance. As such I don't think "avoiding" renting club aircraft for a week would be fair on the clubs some of which are run by enthusiasts rather than avid capitalists.

Although I agree the price of hiring a 152 in this country for an hour is simply nuts and leaves GA inaccessible to many.... more of a "top-down issue" (i.e. fuel costs, regulatory burden etc) than a "bottom-up" one (i.e. how many flying club owners drive around in Porsches??)

[UncleNobby]

I live and work in the US and it all comes down to competition and choice. The US is packed with GA airfields, flight schools, clubs, academies etc etc. Even here is Massachussetts where the price is relatively higher than other States it's way cheaper than Ireland or the UK. Within 60 mile radius I have my choice of 10-15 airfields and as many flight training schools.
For my 152 its $137 an hour including instructor, and like I said probably a lot more expensive than other states (cost of living in Boston etc etc, on the flip side we get paid better than most states).
Thats still under 100 euro an hour all in, or 70 or so pounds.
Can't complain really. :ok:

[Bandit650]

Isn't it all about to change over there though at some point? I heard something about plans to charge for use of airspace and airfields being sold to the private sector etc? I think I read something along those lines anyway (could have been a lod of magazine twoddle).

[UncleNobby]

From what I hear, and have read, it has changed a lot over the past decade or so for the worse (more expensive, a few airstrips getting bulldozed, Meigs field in Chicago possibly the most famous). That being said, GA is huge in the states and I wouldn't expect it to go downhill quickly or without a fight....AOPA for example are always banging the drum.

[A and C]

As usual the thread starts with a rant that is not backed up by the facts, I can rent hours builders a C152 in the UK for the same price as going to the USA.

The only thing is you have to see the cost of the flying realisticly and include the price of airline flights, hotels and car hire into the hourly rate.

My hourly rate will come out at about £60-62/chock to chock hour if you fly 40 hours in two weeks, if you add up all the costs of flying in the USA you will find my price hard to match.