Balpa objections to Op licence

[Low life]

Some years ago there was a definite move to try and get Ops Controllers/ Dispatches licensed. It was reported BALPA was instrumental in its downfall. Has anyone any proof, or details?

[waco]

I don't know but I would not be surprised.
After all, if you look at the history of the UK airline industry there are two classes of people, aircrew and @@@@.

Things have changed to a great extent over the last 15 years. The skills required these days to operate a modern EFIS jet do not compare to those required to fly a DC-7 transatlantic in winter, let alone a Lancaster to Berlin and back in 1943.

Alas, in our industry, the ability to follow a "purple line" still holds god like status.
Perhaps thats why so many airlines go belly up. After all, would you take a top chemist in ICI and let him run the company? Well thats what happens in this industry.

It really is about time Ops and Crewing staff were

AA/ Given the credit they deserve for making the impossible happen on a daily basis.

BB/ Have a suitable licence system introduced so we can prove our level of competence to those who don't listen.

CC/ Were paid our worth.

DD/ Had our own association to look after our rights.

If flying was difficult, ops and crewing would do it. Give us all 20 hours in an A320 simulator and we would prove it. Would love to see some of those bronze gods of the sky sit in ops and crewing for a summer month and see what they would do.

There...............

Now I feel better but what does everyone else think??????

[opsbod]

I believe no sig has some knowledge of this, he's on holiday for 3 weeks but prehaps we can tempt him out of hiding.

Anyway as I understand it BALPA thought that the Ops guys wanted equal responsibilities, like the FAA system, and so objected to the whole thing. What the Guild wanted was just an official qualification to show that they were qualified and to increase safety and trust in them from aircrew.

[Doctor Cruces]

Not surprising that BALPA effectively killed the idea. Most pilots consider themselves the only professionals in the industry, and to admit that Ops staff are professional in their own right as well as actually having some responsibility for the safe conduct of the operation would be a great blow to their usually over sensitive egos.

Ops staff must eventually be licenced in a similar manner to the USA FAA system, but there must be an effective education of the airlines first as their support in the matter is vital.

Then we will get the old question of who controls the licence, government or airline and it will be all too difficult and fall in a heap again.

It's up to us, ladies and gents, to fight for it and make employers/government/EEC listen to our very valid points.

However, the bottom line will be,as usual, profit margin and the bean counters will correctly assume that professionally qualified Ops staff will demand a professional salary and they will squash it regardless of the benefits that will accrue over time.

Doc C

[JB007]

Way to go Waco !!!,
How's thing's by the way ? Did you know Thug was expecting another sprog ?

Dr C is correct, this argument goes back to the days of early Dan-Air it's up to all Ops/Crewing staff/management to fight on this one. Waco, you'd make the perfect Chairman of a commitee !!!!
I'd be very interested to hear what no sig has to say on the matter.

007

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Hear All...See All...Say Now't.

[fcit]

Waco
an association is already there (EUFALDA), though it's not respresenting the industry needs as effective as BALPA obviously is. Part of the problem is, I think, that most of the high studied beancounters in management think that OPS staff has nothing else to do, but producing cost (i.e. benefit is not as visible). Just ask most of the pax what a dispatcher is and you'll find that most haven't got a clue. On the other hand every passenger will realize the need to have pilots or F/A's on the aircraft; so, their lobby is a lot better than OPS staff's.

Cheers

[Low life]

If we are to try and get official recognition, the important thing is to find out how and why the argument was defeated last time and use that information to produce a stronger argument this time. Success is rarely instant, but built on what is learnt from previous failures.

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It's only a game - and they pay us to play it

[waco]

Hi JB
Ta

Regards to the operational THUG.
Re the other, anything else I can do?

ps does the planet really need another operational thug?

[excrewingbod]

I remember reading in one of the safety mags, about 2-3 years ago, a retiring CAA bloke, was quoted as saying that crewing staff, etc should be licensed, due to the complexity of the job. Typical, that he only made this statement AFTER he had retired!

Anyone got any ideas as to where we go from here........

[The Flying Lamb]

Personally the sooner there is some professional recognition for dispatchers/ops persons alike the better.... Besides, what on earth has it got to do with BALPA anyway?
Or could it be the actual Airlines that are objecting?? I mean, if we were to have a similar structure to that of the Dispatchers in the US, then we would have to be paid the money we deserve... (not that i am complaining about my wage).



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come, come, come! We'll have no trouble here!!

[WHAT DO U ACTUALLY DO?]

Ladies and Gentlemen

This debate has been rumbling for years, personally i believe there is a very strong case/argument for the licencing of Airline Ops staff. I say that because i work within the discipline and have first hand knowledge of the benefits an experienced and technically qualified dispatcher can provide for an Airline. Any good Ops director / Flight Ops manager has / will realise that such people are entrusted, on occasion, with complex decisions which can and do either save or cost a lot of money notwithstanding the safety issues. Unfortunately, very few people in an average airline realise the input an ops officer/dispatcher can have and so we are relegated to similer status as the crew bus drivers (no insult intented)

On the subject of safety, Ask yourself how many times have you had to correct or amend flight plans/load plans for crew??

How many times have you had to explain meteorological info to crew??

How many times have performed a flight crew briefing and had to maybe clarify reqd minima at an air field which they had got wrong because they had not read notams correctly??

How many times has an aircraft diverted to an airfield without checking with ops and realising its closed on arrival overhead??

There are many more......

No doubt however the bean counters will win as long as those involved in Ops do not band together as one official,effective body (correct me if im wrong but EUFALDA does not appear to do much)and lobby hard with weight of numbers.

Any comments???

[waco]

Yes, gold star!!! for the above

[fcit]

It is difficult for an association like EUFALDA to make a stand. As mentioned before, everybody obviously realizes the need to have a pilot and F/A's on aboard (even the need for the afore mentioned crew bus driver appears logical), but have you had this issue before that you had to explain what you'd actually do as a dispatcher?
I had many times and most people just don't know about this profession (due lack of public relations). For the public here in Europe (it appears slightly different in the U.S.) everything flight related is taken care from the cockpit and anything else by passenger service - nothing between.
What would happen if dispatcher threatened with industrial action? Well, we all know that ultimately the airline would come to a stand-still, but would the public? Most definately not!
Now take an association like EUFALDA. How on earth are you expecting them to lobby for a profession that is not required in the eyes of the average traveller? I certainly do agree that there is a lack of public relations. But awareness is something that has to be created and (especially here in Europe) cannot be taken for granted. Let's emerge out of the shade and step into the light. Once news articles run stories like I have seen them in the U.S. ('Dispatcher saves flight by advising crew of lighting at destination'), it will be easier for EUFALDA or whatever the dispatcher union might be called than.

Cheers
fcit

[Lozza]

it's about time someone brought up this topic.i've been trying to get information on getting some form of professional qual. for ages.the only thing out there is the FAA-which i've been told is useless in this country unless you can get employment with a foreign airline.aside from that it would be nice to get some sort of recognition for what we do instead of the usual **** we get from flightdeck/passenger svcs etc.

[fcit]

Lozza,
how about doing some more research. If this is about professional qualification, there is a whole bunch of courses and programmes to attend. The DFS in Langen (Germany) offers a 6 (or 8?) week Inital Flight Ops Officer Program that offer a professional background. Also, you might want to consider getting yourself a JAR-OPS 1 Auditors license (or at least some basics) - remember that the written law is the basis for any dispatch operation (playing on the computer can done by everybody).

Cheers

[opsbod]

It says in JAR OPS
"An Operator shall exercise operational control and establish and maintain a method of supervision of flight operations as approved by the authority." (JAR-OPS 1.195)

And thats all it says, not a bad summation for a trade thats taken most of us years to learn and do well. I for one would love to be licenced and to receive the acknowledgement of what I do every day, but as long as the authorities, the airlines and the flight deck fail to recognise the contribution we can make to Flight safety and cost saving were on to a loser.

The problem is were not in the glory end of the business, we work quietly behind the scenes, had a TV crew in our Ops room for a whole day but we simply weren't interesting enough for broadcast.

Personally from what I've heard here and on their pages I don't think EUFALDA is the right answer either, doesn't seem to be putting itself forward or to be represented at any of the conferences I've attended.

Suggestions for the way forward? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[no sig]

Back in the late 70's & 80's the British Guild of Flight Operations Officers worked in vain for the adoption of the ICAO 'recommendation' for the licencing of Flight Operations Officers. It is important to note the word 'recommendation' here, had it been a 'standard' the UK would have been obliged to introduce an accreditation. Alas, it is not.

I do not recall BALPA being an open objector to this, but I can say there was little support from the CAA. Also, I suspect the airline pilot/management fraternity confused the desire by the BGFOO to promote a licence/ acceditation with the US FAA disptach system, which is not the same thing.

Another issue, as I outlined in another posting, the US 'flight release' would not sit well with our aircrew as it is not part and parcel of commercial operations as it is in the FAA system. Our pilots have always been trainined to accept complete responsibility for the safe operation of the aircraft and this is part of the ANO/ANR, their licences are based on this. No problems with that fact, but we all know our aircrew rely on a multiude of ground staff to support their flight, I would have thought that they would have welcomed a qualification for their colleages who prepare the pre-flight information they rely on and offer support in flight. We have licenced engineers of course, who require training etc etc, to ensure an aircraft is airworthy. It should of course extend to Ops.

Why didn't it happen, simply, I believe that the industry was working without any form of flight operations officer acceditation and those who could have supported were not experienced enought to be able to comprehend the benifts or were too afraid of another group of individuals to manage and who would have reasonably demanded higher salaries.

For my own part, it would be a great thing to have a common acceditation whilst recruiting Ops staff, and I would encourage any ops bod to ensure you obtain as much training and certification as you can. The FAA licence and the UK City and Guild Ops Dispatch course are very good places to start.

On another point, aircrew are our colleages, there are good and bad as with all walks of life and I would not for a minute foster any division between us. Aircrew are/we are operational personnel and as such are part of the chain of safety. It is my experience that most aircrew understand and appreciate our role in the business. The more professional ops are the more support for a formal accrediation we are likely to get.

It would be good to hear from the others involved in the BGFOO at the time as I am sure they would put another spin on the above.