Flybe - What are they like to work for? [Archive]

zammo88

26th Sep 2007, 06:29

Hi everyone,

This is my second post of this nature... I asked any Loganair pilots (past or present) if they wouldn't mind lettting me know what it was like working for them. Same story again; flybe this time...

I'm at OAT just now, very close to CPL, with about another 3-4 months to go before I'm knocking at the airlines doors. I am quite liking the idea of flying the Dash 8 for Flybe and I know they are recruiting just now. Also, being Scottish, Edinburgh as a base would be ideal. I've searched pprune looking for any info relating to working as a pilot for them but no luck. So like I said... Any pilots (past or present), particularly on the dash 8 fleet, if you wouldn't mind replying to this post, it would be appreciated :). Also, if anyone knows... What are the chances of Edinburgh as a base?

Thanks in advance,

Zammo88

ADC2604

26th Sep 2007, 16:03

Whilst I am not a Pilot, I do have several friends piloting for Flybe and they seem to be very comfortable with their employer. Their roster appears to suit them and they fly from their local airport which is only about 25 minutes down the road for them!

The pay side of it is ok but for a first outfit, Flybe are very good and if you want to fly the Dash 8 they probably are best. The only other carrier would be WOW with a -300 but as they only have a few a/c I cannot see them having such a large recruitment drive.

I know that there were a lot of new crew at HQ the other day (some really nice looking ones to ;))

I am sure other crew will give you a better idea but I hope that this helps anyway.

CheekyVisual

27th Sep 2007, 10:40

Any airline that can offer you employment in the area you want to live is worth considering. I've worked for several and ultimately they are largely the same ! Ok some may have a nicer vibe and slightly better Ts & Cs than others but in the end they will all want you to fly hard for as little cash as they can get away with. The rest of it is smoke and mirrors and everyone will have a different take on their life style. No two people will see the same job in the same way.

If Fly Be give you a shot grab it (Have worked for). If Loganair give you a shot grab it (Haven't worked for but know folk). Despite what others might say your life will be much the same working for either as a low hour DE Cadet. In a couple of years you'll be in a position to be more choosy. Remember it's still better than working for a living. Good Luck.

boyband

27th Sep 2007, 13:05

If you get the chance of a job there I would take it. They are not a bad lot. It will get you some experience and keep you going for a while.

Porto

27th Sep 2007, 20:19

Could anyone list which bases planned for Embraer , which for Q400 , looking to future?...please..

SUPER HANS

28th Sep 2007, 09:20

I worked at Flybe for many years (pre merger) It's a good an airline to work for as any other if you want to do short haul. The pay is ok, and so many people leave, that you can get a command quite quickly. Even boyband got one when they were really desperate!:ok:

rumair999

28th Sep 2007, 09:31

I have a friend based in EXT and he loves it down there, great crew, good pay and stable roaster

mad_bob

28th Sep 2007, 12:28

Your having a laaaaaarf mate. On my 4th roster change today already, for today!!! I reckon i`ll get to double figures before the end of play tonight.

Some in soles in HQ Air Cadets really don`t konw if they are sat on the loo or having their haircut half the time. :ok:

Hirsutesme

28th Sep 2007, 12:54

where are you based mad bob?

zammo88

29th Sep 2007, 04:34

Thanks for all the replys guys. I'm really hoping I get the chance to work for them when I've finished my training.

Thanks again,

Zammo88 :)

Desk-pilot

29th Sep 2007, 06:19

Zammo,

I'm a fairly recent (ex OATS) recent entrant to Flybe and I must say I really like it. The Dash is a great aeroplane to cut your teeth on, the flightdeck culture is very supportive, professional and relaxed, the company pays for your type rating, puts you up in decent hotels etc and my roster at least is fairly stable. The pay is OK for a turboprop and the short time to command is enticing. Also the company seems to be doing quite well and expanding (which means security, lots of interesting routes and chance of a jet).

The biggest downside for me is that they always finish you on a late and start you on an early thus shortening your weekend and of course basing is a lottery. If you are Scottish then I'd say you're in luck because traditionally they struggle to keep people at the EDI, GLA and BFS bases cos most of us want to get back down South!

Hope that is helpful and good luck.

Desk-pilot.

speedrestriction

29th Sep 2007, 09:35

That would be BHD (not BFS).

niknak

29th Sep 2007, 15:12

Working at the opposite end, I can honestly say that the very large majority of Flybe pilots are a pleasure to work with.
Although the crews are often made up of very experienced captains and low hour F.O's, they operate to high professional standards and we have a very close working relationship, which includes both professional and social liason.

The only downside from our point of view is their Operations Department, probably because the merger has been poorly managed, the Operations is an utter shambles.
When things are going swimmingly, all is sweetness and light, when the **** hits the fan, all is chaos theory x 100, they haven't got a clue and we end up doing a lot of their work for them purely to prevent inconvenience to us.

Hopefully that side of things will improve, the message has been passed via the senior pilots to the company, if it doesn't, we will stop doing their job for them.

Anyway, Flybe are generally a good bunch and I'm sure you'll gain valuable experience if yu do get a job with them.

Good luck.

zammo88

30th Sep 2007, 02:47

Desk-Pilot,

Thanks for your reply. That's good news about the basing thing :). Also, didn't know they pay for the type rating, that's really good. Where is it they send you for type rating?

Cheers,

Zammo88

PPRuNeUser0178

30th Sep 2007, 08:19

Are flybe still working 6/3?

Currymonster

30th Sep 2007, 08:27

Do FlyBe have any crew based in Manchester. Not said so on website but I am sure I have heard so recently

BluffOldSeaDog

30th Sep 2007, 15:25

ExyDriver - you're having a laugh aren't you?
Currymonster - yes, 400s and 145s

PPRuNeUser0178

30th Sep 2007, 17:51

No Bluff, I'm not, a genuine question!

Didn't realise you were still there, shame on you not remembering your old bank manager and for a very limited period, your landlord;)

MVE

1st Oct 2007, 09:46

Here's my 2p's worth....

5 on 2 off (normally!), if you do a 6 in a row you have to have a 3 off in that month. Never had a problem getting leave I wanted, never had a problem getting RDO's, had my fair share of 5 nights away covering due to shortage of FO's at various bases but new recruitment has now corrected that, good bunch of people to fly with and thankfully they have recruited a few captains who whilst they have lots of experience they're not on their last legs and all bitter and twisted about life! The buy out of BAcon was grossly mishandled from an HR point of view (ie they pis"£d off everyone who they should have kept happy) but the company seems to be in a good position and things seem to be improving all the time. The Q400 is more jet than turbo prop but the starting pay for new FO's is appalling and sadly our CC failed to prevent the company from dropping the salary:ugh: (yes that's right it dropped!) It's not even enough to repay an Oxford loan as far as the HSBC are concerned!
But for a first job as a cadet (and lets face it beggers can't be choosers) you could do far,far worse (like contribute to the downfall of our industry and prostitute yourself and pay for a TR) The tr is payed for and you are bonded for 3 years, by that time you'll be a captain if you joined with any experience. You will be a jet fo within 3 years (if that's what floats your boat) and be able to move to a larger jet operator at the end of the 3 years if you wish.......

brain fade

1st Oct 2007, 14:24

To answer your q...........it's cack!

But, as a noob. Who cares- its A JOB!

However, compared to almost all the others. cack.:eek:

Maude Charlee

1st Oct 2007, 19:20

That would be BHD (not BFS).

Depends how late you get home. Not too far from the truth at times of late. :}

MVE

2nd Oct 2007, 20:19

brain fade, would you be one of those dead end bitter and twisted captains I referred to that no one else will employ? If not give the chap who asked the question the benefit of your experience with a constructive answer rather than a quick infintile response like the one you posted above!

BluffOldSeaDog

2nd Oct 2007, 22:59

Lay off BrainFade, he's never been bitter but he sure is twisted.
FlyBE seems a great airline for that first step up onto the commercial ladder (there are a couple of others but they'll sting you upfront) and for those that aspire to progress to an early command but it was never the cup of tea that all of us BACon's wanted to drink from. A lot left but a considerable number stayed and the continued pilot turnover means that those that join (even if they don't initially get their basing preference) will get a posting where they'd like. Good luck to you Zammo!

acebaxter

3rd Oct 2007, 09:08

Flybe's website says 85,000 sterling for direct entry captains. That doesn't seem to match up with the payscale posted on the same website.

Any idea what the truth is?

excrab

3rd Oct 2007, 09:30

Ace, the truth is there.

It says packages up to 82k for a DEC, and the small print at the bottom of the page tells you that you can achieve that with maximum seniority. On the same page it tells you that a turboprop captain will be earning 55k after two years, including flight pay. Flight pay is probably about £300 per month, and as the pay increments are about £700 per year you would probably start on about 53 including flight pay.

They may be accused of untruths at times but that looks about right. It isn't as much as you can get as a jet captain elsewhere, but for someone with only 2500hrs - I'm not saying that is you, of course - it isn't that bad if you get a base that you want (remember that after 2 years they are putting 12% into your pension, you don't pay up front for your training, you don't pay for your uniform, they provide health care and LOL insurance etc and you are on full salary from day one and you don't have to pay your own hotel bills when training).

Although it might not be obvious from some of the posts on pprune there are certainly worse places to work than flybe.

acebaxter

3rd Oct 2007, 10:43

http://www.flybe.com/images/82.gifDirect Entry Captains

It's probably just me but when you say Direct Entry Captains packages up to 82K Sterling that means starting pay, not pay in 17 years.

I'm well north of 2500 hours and I'm exploring options for what is hopefully my last career move. I know, nothing is final in this industry but one can hope. So, since size truly doesn't matter to me at this point I'm exploring all options, both jet and turboprop, in a search for that mystical airline where they treat you as a valued asset to the company and where hard work is rewarded.

brain fade

3rd Oct 2007, 10:56

Yeah.

How the F*ck can you be a DIRECT ENTRY guy and have 17 years seniority at the same time??:rolleyes:

Bluff....ermmmm, thanks:ok:

On a more constructive note then. Best thing (only good thing?) is getting to work in the regions, and frankly that is SUCH a good thing it almost outweighs all the bad things.

But the 'bad things' there are aplenty. I found it more of an attitude thing myself, by which I mean the companys attitude towards the pilots.

I'm not workshy, but I prefer to be asked if they need something extra done rather than just finding out I've got to do it. Also they do f*ck you around something special, but believe it or not, I don't mind that at all. What I do mind is being royally f*cked about for NO extra pay!!

Couple more positives then- the people you work with are really great, the flying has more variety than I had before and if you're an FO, command can never be far away.

I was lucky to leave but still have a lot of friends there (i hope:}).

5711N0205W

3rd Oct 2007, 11:12

It's probably just me but when you say Direct Entry Captains packages up to 82K Sterling that means starting pay, not pay in 17 years.

IMHO 'up to' means just that, top of the current banding, if it said 'from 82K' that would be a different matter. It is fairly standard terminology in job adverts of all types.

PPRuNeUser0178

3rd Oct 2007, 11:55

Anyone care to expand on a few issues like:

Rostering
LoL
Crew Food
Leave Availability
Sick Pay
Bonding arangement

Note from post above pension is 12% after two years, what about the first two years?

cheers

ED

excrab

3rd Oct 2007, 18:08

Ace,
I'm afraid that the last part of your post really rules out Flybe for you (the valued asset/reward part). And realistically if you have significant experience and jet command time and can get a direct entry command you'd be better off at Ryan air.

But for anyone considering Flybe, to try and give a fair view of what it is like for a DEC -

You'll join on the Q400 and it is important to remember that there will eventually be about 60 of those and only 15 E195s. So with about 600 pilots ahead of you on the seniority list (assuming any from Bacon stay) you are going to fly the dash 8 for a long time. If that doesn't frustrate you, and you can live with the fact that F/Os you fly with now will achieve jet command before you do, and that there is no chance to progress into a training role because the turboprop trainers are on jet salaries so that is dead mans shoes as well then fair enough. The Q400 has reasonable performance and a good flight deck, and the first officers you fly with will be varied in experience but nice people. Those are good things as you will be flying 4 or 6 sector days probably 5 on 2 off but quite often 6 on 2 off, invariably starting on earlies and finishing on lates. That is what it says on your roster but that is subject to change at short notice, although there is a scheduling agreement giving you some control over your life for the next 24hrs, but that is about as far as it goes.

Whilst you are flying your 6 sector days out of BHD (it doesn't matter where you are based you'll end up night stopping there eventually) crew food will be provided for you, but as Flybe are cheapskates and saved money by not fitting ovens on the dash 8 it will consist of sandwiches, pasta salad, chocolate and crisps - just perfect now the winter is starting. You can get hot drinks of course, but the cabin crew are so busy trying to clean the cabin in the twenty minute turn arounds that you'll have to make them yourself.

If you get tired of all this and need a break then you get about five weeks leave a year. Being at the bottom of the seniority list means that it may or not be available when you actually want it, but that happens in most airlines. Should you get sick then you are entitled to statutary sick pay and Bupa cover to help you get well again, and if you get so exhausted that you lose your licence you get LOL, but that reduces so that by age 55 you only get it if you lose your licence through accident, not illness. You don't have to pay for the LOL or BUPA, but you can put your family on the BUPA scheme at a reduced rate.

Should you survive all this and reach retirement age then you can collect from the pension scheme. It isn't final salary but as money purchase schemes go it is more generous than some. When you join the scheme you have to contribute 4% which the company will match. After one year they up the company contribution to 8% and after two years to 12%. You only have to put in 4% throughout. However if you want to leave before retirement but within three years of joining you will have to pay off the bond. This is a bank loan in your name taken out when you join, but as long as you stay it is invisible to you. The company pays an extra amount into your salary each month which is equal to the loan repayment. If you leave you just keep paying back the loan, there isn't a lump sum to pay off, so if the job you are going to is going to pay you more than an extra £300 per month after tax the bond is no deterrent to leaving (which is one of the reasons that there is such a high turnover of F/Os as moving from £25k on a Q400 to £45k on a boeingbus is a no brainer).

In all honesty it's a good job for youngish guys and gals to get some command experience, or for older career changers to get a quick turboprop command and then stay there as they might be to old to move onto a large jet elsewhere. Alternatively it works if Flybe are the only significant player where you want to be based and you don't want to relocate. But like I said at the beginning of this, there are better places for those with significant experience who are mobile.

Anyway, Hope that helps you all. Any other questions you could always ask at the interview - after all you could turn the job down if they offer it to you.

RAFAT

3rd Oct 2007, 18:22

Ace - I agree, a DEC should be given an accurate reflection of what his actual salary is likely to be at the start, and in this case it won't be anywhere near £82k, £50k is nearer the mark for as year 1 DEC on the 400. The ad is typical Flybe marketing speak - not an outright lie, but not really true either, they're experts at that!

Given your experience and the desire for this to be your final career move, DO NOT go anywhere near Flybe, you'll regret it for sure. They are an excellent airline and provide some good equipment for someone starting their Commercial flying career, but for experienced types....:=

There are a few exceptions of course, if you live within 10 minutes of a Flybe base and looking to maybe move to part time working as an initial step towards winding down your career, then it's worth considering, but otherwise don't even think about it.

bigmustard

3rd Oct 2007, 21:41

However if you want to leave before retirement but within three years of joining you will have to pay off the bond. This is a bank loan in your name taken out when you join, but as long as you stay it is invisible to you. The company pays an extra amount into your salary each month which is equal to the loan repayment. If you leave you just keep paying back the loan, there isn't a lump sum to pay off, so if the job you are going to is going to pay you more than an extra £300 per month after tax the bond is no deterrent to leaving (which is one of the reasons that there is such a high turnover of F/Os as moving from £25k on a Q400 to £45k on a boeingbus is a no brainer).

This is not quite incorrect!

There is no bank loan. The company pay for the training up front and if you leave before 36 months you pay back the outstanding 1/36th monthly amount

Turn rounds are min 25 mins.

Leave is 28 days rising to 33 by 1 day per annum for the first five years.

The rest is reasonably accurate if not a little gilted ;)

excrab

4th Oct 2007, 08:21

Bigmustard,

My apologies - when I joined they took out a loan with Barclays in Exeter in my name which worked as I said. Didn't realise it had changed recently.

As for leave, I would suggest that 28 days is "about five weeks" as I said (technically 5.6 weeks so I suppose Flybe would argue that it is "about six weeks", using the same logic they use to quote 82k as the DEC salary).

Scheduled turn arounds are 25 minutes, except of course for the 15 minute ones on the channel Islands out of EXT and BHX in the winter. And if your running late in the evening and trying to get back to any base on the network which isn't open 24 hours.

MVE

4th Oct 2007, 08:30

Big mustard is right, the bank loan thing went a couple of years ago, there is a bond you sign which if you stay for the 3 years means a free type rating.
Correct on the 25 mins turn arounds, as to the payscale adverts there were a lot of people in Flt ops who were extremely pissed off :mad: with the dis-ingenuous adverts regarding pay, never mind those of us actually flying on a lot less wondering what they were talking about. The small print is the believable bit.
You also should consider that flybe is a fairly new company and they are changing all the time, by that I mean that you cannot consider Flybe the same company as the one before we bought Bacon. The company is twice the size and simply cannot afford the turnover of pilots from recent years. There is a definate feeling (imho) that the airline is maturing from the type of organisation that still thinks it runs a couple of sheds out of a portacabin into a professional major airline.
The recruitement process has changed beyond recognition with the online application, dedicated professional recruiters and the like.
We all have high hopes for the new enlarged CC.
I have flown military and major long haul UK and while the pay is not quite as good, I am very happy to be at home almost every night and not living out of suit case for most of my working month! Plus I get to handfly a lively aircraft rather than sit and watch an autopilot for 9 hours on end:ugh:
Finally, there do seem to be a fair share of hasbeens flying for us that either can't or won't move on despite constant complaining (and if they did us all a favour and fO'd elsewhere it would certainly be a better place to work!) but even so we are growing rapidly, promotion is extremely quick and at the end of 3 years, having joined as a new fo out of training, if you are not knocking on or already promoted to Captain you should try another profession.:ok:

MVE

4th Oct 2007, 08:49

Some of the posts above have highlighted one of the major problems with PPRUNE - you never know if the person writing the thread reply is just simply talking bolox or just a bitter and twisted ex employ (no offence brain fade) or simply has out of date info. You have to take anything you read on PPRUNE with a large pinch of salt and do your best to sort the wheat from the chaff! I'd include my posts in the as well!

Hirsutesme

4th Oct 2007, 13:04

Well said MVE. A fair amount of what excrab said was ok, but to suggest flybe are worse than Ryanair is not only inaccurate, it's daft!

bigmustard

4th Oct 2007, 13:19

Hi Excrab

No apology necessary :)

The leave thing. Well, it is as I described but I did not add the wrap around days which means that after 5 years service you have 2 days short of 7 weeks.

100above

4th Oct 2007, 20:14

Brain Fade - of course we are still your friends, just.... ;)
Truth is flybe has changed already in the few months since you departed. The early days post merger, were like the dying days of BA Connect - shambolic. Long delays, loads of cancellations and constantly being messed about. Now it aint perfect, but over the past few months things do seem to have settled down considerably and its nice to be back once again running on time or early most days. Not perfect, but not quite as cack as you remember !

Callsign Kilo

4th Oct 2007, 20:28

Does anyone have any experience of the interview process with Flybe; especially relating to a rookie commercial aviator

I also understand that a sim assessment is conducted via FlightSafety at FAB. Can anyone elaborate on this?

Would also appreciate any information concerning the Q400. Where the TR is conducted, what the aircraft is like to fly, does it have any traps or shortcomings? Many thanks

CK

excrab

5th Oct 2007, 13:19

Hirsutesme,

Whilst some of what appears on Ryanairs website is probably spin, we have also seen that flybe are guilty of that as well. Obviously it would depend on where you live and basing etc, but if you can get the base you want at Ryan air they claim to offer DECs a package upto £100k as opposed to 82k at Flybe, and a fixed 5 on 4 off roster with no planned nightstops as opposed to 5 on 2 off with night stops wherever required at short notice as crewing try to keep the show running (not their fault, I would add).

Remembering that a DEC at Ryan air doesn't pay up front for training if type rated as do the low houred recruits, I stand by my statement that a pilot with the hours for a command at either company would be better off at Ryan air, and that is backed up, I'm afraid, by the views of a couple of Ryan air captains I have spoken to recently who 18 months ago were Flybe 146 captains.

What I didn't say was that Flybe were worse than Ryan air - apart from anything else I have no personal experience of Ryan air so wouldn't be qualified to judge. I would suggest that for anyone other than a hire houred DEC with medium/heavy jet command experience Flybe is certainly better, but that is only my opinion, and as MVE said you have no way off knowing if that is based on ten years at Flybe or ten months or even no years and no months anywhere except for microsoft flightsim - you will indeed have to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Maude Charlee

5th Oct 2007, 19:31

£82K package.

Presumably that includes the equivalent value of all those nights in hotel rooms? :}

brain fade

5th Oct 2007, 23:03

100 Above

Well I'm jolly glad a top chap like yourself is still prepared to admit he's my friend.

Who cares what colours they paint her in- a Barbie command in Scotland is something to cherish.:ok::ok::ok:

Glad to hear things are on the up.

(couldn't resist a dig at Flybe tho, it's a weakness of mine.:}).

Hirsutesme

8th Oct 2007, 13:20

Accept most of the points you make excrab, the problem comes with the ryanair claims bit.
I've met a lot of Ryanair pilots and I can tell you categorically that in a large majority of cases the substance does not match the spin. There are indeed a few guys who are happy with the salary and the aircraft, but the majority are not, you only have to look at the numbers who are leaving to see that.

excrab

8th Oct 2007, 15:51

Hirsutesme,

Fair enough - I can only go by those I have spoken to (three captains and one F/O), all of whom were ex flybe. Possibly it might depend on the background of those who are leaving - were they new guys who got stitched up for training or had they flown for major airlines prior to Ryan air. The grass is always greener and I'm sure there are places a lot worse even than there. Well, almost sure anyway.

As for "There are indeed a few guys who are happy with the salary and the aircraft, but the majority are not, you only have to look at the numbers who are leaving to see that." I would suggest that could also apply to flybe as it was. Prior to the Bacon merger Flybe had huge regular resignations each winter (someone told me about 60 pilots resigned last winter, 13 Q400 captains in December alone) and the bottom third of the seniority list mostly left before they even unfroze their ATPLs, primarily due to poor pay compared with elsewhere plus deliberate policy of sending people from the South to EDI/GLA/BHD and then recruiting for SOU/EXT/BHX without letting people alread in the seniority system bid for a transfer.

It will be interesting to see what this winter brings.

MVE

8th Oct 2007, 17:34

"someone told me" - oh well that's all right then it must be true!:ugh:

lord mash

8th Oct 2007, 20:35

Have you seen the latest video on 'you tube' of leeds airport ground staff pushing back a flybe aircraft by hand? Surprised they dont dont it more often that way they would save enough to give the cabin crew a decent pay rise instead of trying to cut us out of the bonus scheme lol

excrab

9th Oct 2007, 20:19

MVE,

So where did all the names for exit interviews in November and December last year (displayed for all to see on the wall board in ops admin) come from if it wasn't true?

MVE

10th Oct 2007, 08:41

Excrab, you will see from my post that I did not specifically lambast you for your post regarding numbers other than a frustrated picture. I can't critisise you for spreading rumours on here, after all its a rumour network.
However.....
....your comment on resignations in winter isn't such a shocker, had you given it a little thought. The charters recruit in Aug/Sep time for the next years program and with 3 months notice that means those guys recruited would be leaving in the winter.
It's not a surprise that pilots will leave before unfreezing their ATPL's; you give a young pilot good training on a challenging aircraft like the Q400 and then for obvious reasons the likes of Monarch/BA/Theifair/Easyjet etc. find those same pilots very attractive and want to recruit them. An airline like ours that gives good training and experience to low hour pilots, will always lose a lot of those same low hour pilots to higher paid, larger aircraft operators but those same operators wouldn't look twice at them had they not had their time at Flybe under their belts!!! . As was said to me in my interview 'Flybe has always been a feeder airline' - whether we remain one is yet to be seen.
I agree the basing policy needs a good look at but for instance, 3 guys off my course ended up at the exact base they wanted within 12 months of starting at Flybe, hardly a major sacrifice to make for a pilot wannabee in his first commercial job. Having swallowed up BAcon and doubled the workforce we now have more bases and therefore more chances to move! Your comment regarding basing was again exagerated and inaccurate or at the very least well outdated!

Out of interest, where would you suggest wannabbees with low hours apply for their first jobs? Give us the benefit of your experience and tell me what other airline will pay for your type rating and only bond you for 3 years and leave you in a position to apply to the like of BA?.

flyingcamel

10th Oct 2007, 23:31

As someone embarking on their low hours recruitment process for flybe can some answer the following:

- Any chance of a base in southern england if a new joiner? (I count Birmingham as the furthest north I'd particularly like to go, but I do understand we can't have it all our own way.)

- How much hand flying is involved on a 4-6 sector day?

- Whats the average sector pay for a new cadet FO given I think they start you on around £23k basic?

-Do you guys really feel environmentally responsible with your green jets? (Or are you just enjoying the flying?) It's a big issue in the interview I understand.........the green thing that is.

-Finally, just how attractive is it to your next airline to have 2000 TP hours in a Q400 over someone who paid for a job with MOL and has 2000 738 hours? (Serious question as I'm sure lots of people think about this.)

Hope someone can fill in the gaps, and thanks to all in advance for your input. I really would like to be paid to fly given the money spent on training already!
Cheers

excrab

11th Oct 2007, 01:37

MVE,

As you seem to want to make this personal the first thing I would say is that you can suggest all you want, but whoever you are and whatever your experience your suggestion that I need to qualify my comments is just arrogant twaddle. Reading your post I would be inclined to think that you are a flybe management pilot or at least a flybe management wannabbee. It reads like something the tp fleet manager might write.

Anyway, I will give you the benefit of my "experience" as you sarcastly put it, which consists of eight years (so far) flying for Flybe and thirteen years working for other companies prior to that (obviously no where near your experience, I admit) and say that I cannot suggest another company that will do all those things for a low hour wannabbee. However, there is no reason that I should do, as in none of my posts have I said that Flybe is not a good place for a low houred pilot.

All I have done is to give a picture of the working conditions as I have found them, not being based in Exeter, and said that in a specific case of an experienced pilot who could get a direct entry command at either company they would be better off at Ryanair.

So why not give us the benefit of your own experience, especially of Flybe where you have obviously been for much longer than I as you know so much more about it, and prove how £52k working 5 on 2 off starting on earlies and finishing on lates is better than earning £70k plus sector pay with a 5 on 4 off fixed roster pattern, assuming there are no basing issues (as perhaps might soon be the case in BHD if the rumours about a Ryan air base are true).

You are right, also, that there is nothing surprising about pilots leaving in the winter, what however you should be worried about is how many. If you had bothered to read that part of my post you would see that I qualified it with "prior to the Bacon merger" so it might well be outdated. However whilst I will not quote names the figures were given to me by a member of the Balpa cc who might well have known what he was talking about, although you would probably say he was deliberately spreading anti company gossip. The thing you should also be worried about is how you are going to retain turboprop captains, now that the jet pay for tp trainers and the large number of Q400s compared to a small number of E195s means there is no real career progression. Although, as it appears from your post that you joined as a DEC you probably feel that isn't a problem.

Anyway, just to reiterate - I have nothing against Flybe and have enjoyed working for them, and agree with you that it isn't a bad place for low houred pilots. In my opinion, however, I think there are other companies where experienced captains could be better off. I also believe that potential recruits should get a chance to have an idea of what the company is really like to work for.

Finally, the ops admin white board thing - I didn't "hear about it", and "someone" didn't tell me about it, and I didn't "make it up and think it might be true" - I saw it last December when I was in the office in EXT, as indeed you must have done if you were also there.

MVE

11th Oct 2007, 07:00

Excrab, You are obviously a delicate soul and so I have ammended my post to remove the lines that might have offended you , I would suggest you re-read the post I responded to and perhaps with a little reflection you may see why I felt the need to respond. I'm neither a management pilot nor a wannabee, as to me being arragant, I'm so good I don't need to be.:p
Your comment on working at Theifair is naive at best but if you think they would be such a great outfit to work for then seeya! Your silly comment on career progression I'll put down to typing while drunk!
FLYINGCAMEL.
You ask some reasonable questions so I'll try to give you some reasonable answers.....
Basing. You will find out where you are to be based on your first day of induction. There is every chance you get a base in the south but historically the northern bases are more likely as less people tend to want to live up there. The basing situation is not ideal and maybe in the future the recruiters will wake up and organise themselves sufficiently to allow recruitment for a specific base. If you suggest in the interview that you would not accept a job unless you were offered Southampton for instance then there is a chance it would go against you but better than a divorce 12 months down the road perhaps.
Hand flying.
You can handfly but your question suggests you don'y quite get the ethos behind flying modern aircraft. They are designed to be flown by autopilot and almost all of your Type training will be geared to that. That said there is plenty of chance to handfly when you can.
Duty pay.
2-400 pounds a month. Obviously drops when you take leave as you fly less.
Green thing.
What a load of tosh in my view! I can't imagine that any pilot at Flybe seriously thinks we are being 'green'. I pity you if you have to convince an interview panel of it!
TP hours vs 738.
It's got to come down to how you feel about paying for a type rating. Lets face it a 738 will win with MOL or another 738 operator but plenty of guys move to jet operators without paying for a jet type rating. Personally, I think most of our problems as an industry come down to the fact the bean counters have found people so willing to pay for type ratings and medicals and the like out of their own pockets. I appreciate that most or many would not have got a job without doing so and so I see why they have but it's short sighted. I don't think it's an exgageration to say it's ruining our industry as a whole.:=

excrab

11th Oct 2007, 10:00

MVE,

This is going to be my last contribution to this debate. Flybe have an eventual plan to have about 60 turboprops and 15 embraer 195s. In the last few years when the ratio of jets to turbo props was higher it was taking about 7 - 8 years to get a jet command in BHX, and longer than that in BHD, EXT and SOU. As far as I know there are no transfers now from the Q400 to the 146 as it is being phased out, and all those who are transfering to the left seat of the emb 195 are current 146 captains, thus it is probably about 10 years to jet command at the moment.

So, the career progression scenario in a couple of years when the fleets stabilise. Pilot bloggs joins as an F/O on the Q400 earning £23k. All well and good and as you say, no up front payment for a type rating. He/she watches his/her peers from the same integrated course who have invested in a type rating with ctc earning £45k as an F/O on a boeing or an airbus, but our Flybe pilot is prepared to stay where he/or she is. After a couple of years he (I'm going to stop typing "she" as well but please no one get offended) transfers to the emb195 with another bond, having not been in the company for 10 years, and earns £35k per year whilst his peers on the boeing/airbus are earning £45k. Eventually after about 4 years he has enough hours for a command on the dash and earns £52k. (None of these figures include flight pay at Flybe or sector pay elsewhere, of course).

What does pilot Bloggs do now? Above him is a glass ceiling. Q400 LTCs/TRIs/TREs on jet salary plus training increments, which makes them pretty well off, especially with 7 or 8 years of seniority payments. They aren't about to move to the RHS of a jet elsewhere to take a pay cut, or even to the LHS of the emb195 without a lot of soul searching , as they will lose the training pay and be bonded. So there will be very few training vacancies except for those caused by retirement. The same goes for LHS embraer - not many of them and crewed by senior captains who are probably settled and won't want to move (unless of course another UK operator was to buy Emb195s).

So the career progression in the company is limited, whatever you say, and younger captains and F/Os will move continue to move on as they are quite capable of working that out. Because of this - in my opinion which is not a result of being drunk - Flybe will always be a "training airline", at least on the turboprop fleet, as long as the pilot job market remains bouyant. but at least it keeps the trainers from getting bored!

As for Ryanair - I may be naive, but if I was offered two jobs at the same base, one flying maximum hours but with a fixed roster pattern with a reasonable number of days off, and the other earning £35k per year less for max hours 5 on 2 off and only one evening in seven when I could plan to do anything because of starting on earlies and finishing on lates I would find it difficult to convince my wife and kids that the second of those was the better option. I know all about the draconian management, sacked for unstable approaches stuff but I still contend that if you keep your head down, do your job and keep clear of management it is OK for a captain based where he/she wants to be and not commuting.

Anyway, continue to enjoy the dash 8/Flybe. Maybe one day we'll get to fly together and through conversation you will suddenly say "you most be that tw*t excrab because you talk utter tosh" :)

Chesty Morgan

11th Oct 2007, 10:43

Excrab

and all those who are transfering to the left seat of the emb 195 are current 146 captains

Oh no they're not!

MVE

11th Oct 2007, 10:58

Excrab a very quick reply for you......
1. No offence intended and best of luck
2. Why did it take you years to move on to another jet job when almost every other jet employer pays more?
3. Did you ever try for training and the better salary?
4. How many hours did you start at Flybe with? Very low experience I bet!
5. How many other airlines offered you a job when you had low hours?
6. If you join Flybe to fly jets then you are joining the wrong airline (see point 2)
7. Mine's a bitter and no name calling!
8. The fact that Flybe offers great training and experience is a good reason to join rather than not.
9. Can you find me any airline in the UK that offers such good prospects to low hour wannabees and doesn't ask you to pay for the TR.
10. How can career progression be limited when they offer Captaincy to some at just 2000hours total time?
11. That means a new FO joining Flybe on the Q400 could be a Captain on 52k a year in approx' 3.5 years. Find me any other airline that offers that?
12. In answer to the original question asked, I can tell you Flybe isn't Ryanair and thank god for that!:ok:

PPRuNeUser0178

11th Oct 2007, 11:59

I have been observing this thread with interest as someone who may one day consider a "downward move" as some may call it to have a command in the UK at a regional base that I want to be at.

First thing I can say with experience of our 5/4/5/3 roster pattern is that unless Flybe sorts that out they will ALWAYS loose people.

Since introducing the fixed pattern and further improvements to it thanks to BALPA perseverence attrition rates at EZY have never been so low.

Pilots value lifestyle, and its a thin line between living in the regions and getting maybe one "valuable" evening at home a week and commuting from the regions to London but having more valuable time at home. A thin line that I am yet undecided upon which side is better for my future.

As for an airline that pays for your TR etc etc I spoke to a mate yesterday who is an FO at ScotAirways/Suckling and although I think there is a lot of change there at the moment with respect to the City Jet deal, when they recruit you on to the 328 your are paid a salary and are bonded for 15K over three years with no loan agreements. You also get a uniform accomodation whilst training and medicals paid for. It'a always been a gentleman's type agreement and although not the highest paid certainly a great first job, also used to be good for internal command promotion too, but as said above may all be changing.

And yes I did used to work for them.:ok:

angelorange

11th Oct 2007, 12:23

A 10 year captain on Dash 8 pre Flybe take over went to EZY this year but still had to do TRSS.

I find it astonishing and probably a result of the TP v Jet talent discrimination airlines have adopted since Pontius was a pilot.

Even if excrab is right regarding Flybe being a training airline, a leaver on the Q400 fleet may still have to pay for a jet rating after all!

"What a way to run a rail road" springs to mind.

crossfiller

12th Oct 2007, 20:31

Well FlyBe rostering is truly in the dark ages;
6 or 5 on, then 2 (mainly) or 3 (occasionally) off. Policy is to minimize days off even if this means a good number of days are only two sectors.
You will start your days off from a late and the first duty back will be an early - which on a two off means you only get one evening effectively free, and when coupled with 6 on is, from the rest/recovery point of view, bordering on the dangerous.
You will not get many of your request days off granted - Manchester pilots were told that you get a request day if it fits with the roster pattern - in other words you get a request day granted if you were going to get a day off then anyway.
Unless you are very senior you wont get much if any of the holiday you bid for.
The weakness of the scheduling agreement means the company has wide latitude to arbitrarily extend/alter duty days and convert early standbys into late duties.
On the plus side there’s a great bunch of people to work with, and that includes the crews and the front-line crewing officers and rosterers down in EXT who seem decent enough when you talk to them (which makes it difficult to understand why the rostering’s so cr@p - I think it has to do with policy and company structure - which is apparently unusual in that the rosterers and crewers aren’t under the same direct management chain as the flight crews). Also there doesn’t seem to be a blame culture if you’re honest, and captains are allowed to get on with being captains without being micro-managed.
In summary: If you’re a newbie looking for experience, or experienced and in the happy position to be able to work a part time contract, FlyBe is for you. On the other hand if you have the experience to be able to choose, and you aspire to some sort of reasonable family/home/social work life balance, then look elsewhere. Pity really; FlyBe could be O.K. if it got the rostering right, but as ezydriver says "pilots value lifestyle" and unfortunately as long as its current rostering practices continue it will remain a high crew turnover training airline.

excrab

13th Oct 2007, 11:44

MVE
1. Thankyou
2. Job satisfaction
3. See 2 and draw your own conclusion. Not much satisfaction in A-B four times a day for 8 years
4. You might lose the bet. It may surprise you to learn that DECs are not a new thing at Flybe/British European/JEA
5. 2 Neither of which were Flybe which at the time operated 5 turboprops. The one I joined only exists now in the history books
6. Proves my point about career progression
7. No problem I'll get them in
8. I agree
9. Initially good prospects see 6. Also see ezydrivers post re scotair
10. see 6 again its not about what you fly but sadly for most the money is more important
11. BMI baby, Jet2, possibly easy depending on basing. They might have to pay for a tr but will earn significantly more initially and after 4 yrs hard work command on a 737 or bus is possible at £70k plus ? depending on the company
12. I never said it was

low n' slow

25th Oct 2007, 19:58

Any FlyBe FO's here that can answer my questions?

How do you find the operational environment with regards to SOP adherence and so on? Paperless cockpit?

I've got about 1200 hours TT of which about 800 are on a JAR 25 TP. How
long will my time to command be (all other JAR-FCL requirements fulfilled).

Schedulingwise, is there an economic compensation for changes in the roster or are they able to move it about as they please? How about overtime compensation and working on offdays? What will a typical monthly salary after tax look like (I ask after tax because I don't know the UK income tax, I'm Swedish). What are the additional allowances (overnight payments, sector pay, weekend compensation and so on)?

How big is the bond, that is, how much is the max amount that one can be required to pay incase one decides to leave before the 3 year bond is over?
What's the chance of getting the Exeter or channel island base's? Is it part of the initial contract or is it a lottery once you get in?

Are there any other benefits involved, health plan with free gymcard or similar goodies? Staff travel with FlyBe and/or allied airlines?
License and medical fee's paid?

Sectors per day? How early are the earlies and how late are the lates? How long (block time) are the sectors in average?

Sorry if the questions seem stupid. I have a decent job for the time being. It pays well but this is mostly due to schedueling problems and excessive compensations for company f-ups. Also the operational environment is more cowboy than professional and I'm looking for a standardised cockpit environment that makes good use of functioning SOP... Basically everything you'd expect to find in the TP-swamp.
Thanks on forehand/ LnS