Simulator or not for IR training?

[Martin1234]

If cost is about the same, which of the alternatives as of below should be preferred for the JAR SE IR(A) rating and why?

1) 50 h of instrument time in an aeroplane

2) 35 h of FNPT II and 15 h of instrument time in an aeroplane

[Canadapilot]

If cost is the same i'd do it all in the aircraft...but i'd be surprised if the costs of each were similar. Unless you're doing the IR in a C152! That said, i found the Sim a far more relaxed way of learning instrument flying...and was certainly glad i'd done a lot before i got in the air when the multi-tasking really begins!

[v1valarob]

Same here, cant see how training in a sim + plane would be cheaper than all plane. I did my training in a sim first, and then moved to a seminole. As a brand new instructor, I think its going to be tough to teach someone in the air, and would much prefer to get the basics down on the ground where you can hit "freeze" at any time and explain whats going on.

-Rob

[asuweb]

A mix of sim and air time. It's far easier to learn the procedures and methods in the sim, without having to worry about the real world environment. If you mess up an approach in the sim, a press of a button puts you right back at the start of the approach, and you do it again. Not so in the aircraft where you have to book slots etc. Sims also have a pause button, so you can discuss certain points with your instructor at the time, look at the printouts and see where you may be going wrong.

[RVR800]

Do it in the aircraft - if its the same cost its a no brainer.

[helimutt]

It's not a no brainer!! The IR is a step up! You need a few lessons in a Sim where the basics can be taught without having to fly a pattern each time. You can pause, discuss, repeat at your leisure so better value for money. ie, you could fly 5 ILS one after the other in a sim but in the same time in a plane, only get to fly one.

Do some sim time for the basic procedures. get them in your head, then get in the aircraft.

This is only my opinion but i'll be surprised at many people saying do it all in the plane only.
Might be same cost per hour but think value for money here. :ok:

[asuweb]

Have to agree, no point wasting time flying around in the plane until you've got to grips with the basics. I can't believe that the sim isn't cheaper than the aircraft.

[FlyingForFun]

Can't agree more with the last few posts. The sim wins every time.

- Much more relaxed atmosphere for learning the basics
- You can be positioned and repositioned at the touch of a button, saves having to fly to the start of an approach each time you practice it
- You can pick the weather/wind yourself. Light winds down the runway for learning the basics, strong crosswinds once you're up to speed
- No ATC delays
- No problems booking slots with ATC
- ATC can be as accomodating or as difficult as you like - accomodating when you're just starting out, difficult once you've got the basics sorted out

I could probably list many more advantages of sim over aircraft if I thought about it.

However, I don't think 15 hours in the aircraft is quite enough, although that is the minimum for a JAR IR. I'd try to get at least 20 hours in the aircraft, especially if it's an aircraft which you don't have hundreds of hours in.

FFF
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[Martin1234]

Thanks for the answers.

I'm considering two different training providers. The cheap one does all training in an aeroplane while the not so cheap training provider does 35 h in the simulator and the rest in an aeroplane. It actually works out about the same price.

I don't think 15 hours in the aircraft is quite enough

Do you think that it's more likely that I will pass in minimum hours if I do all the training in an aeroplane? I will probably start my IR(A) training with hopefully less than 40 hours of fixed-wing as I already got a CPL(H) (low hours though).

[moggiee]

Our sim is £140 per hour inc VAT - less than half the price of the aeroplane (£305). I would be surprised if it's any different elsewhere.

Not only can you get two for one price-wise, but the hour in the sim can actually encompass a lot more training than an hour in the aeroplane. You always get the runway and approach that you need, a quick reset saves time between approaches if required, a freeze can provide a few moments for a hot debrief etc.

[asuweb]

Our sim is £140 per hour inc VAT - less than half the price of the aeroplane (£305)

I assume your prices relate to the hire of a MEP aircraft. The poster in this thread is talking about SE IR.

There would be less of a difference between prices for a sim and air time with an SEP, however I would still have thought the sim would be cheaper.

[PAPI-74]

Do NOT start your IR training in the Aircraft. You will be so far behind the a/c you won't learn anything....just get frustrated.
If you build the blocks in stages, the end result will be much stronger.
Go back to bascis and learn the scan for the mode of flight, rather than a random panic that WILL occur if you start in the a/c.

Save the money and do the rest on the twin, rather that only 10hrs in the twin that some schools recommend.

Get a good sim to start with (FNPT 2) not an FNPT 1.
Some good schools will give you their old FNPT1 for free to practice.

PM me for who.

[moggiee]

I assume your prices relate to the hire of a MEP aircraft. The poster in this thread is talking about SE IR.

There would be less of a difference between prices for a sim and air time with an SEP, however I would still have thought the sim would be cheaper.
That will teach me to read more carefully.

I'd still recommend some sim time - it is more useful than the aeroplane, at least in the early stages for the reasons mentioned in earlier posts.

[Contacttower]

Some people may say this is a silly suggestion; I've got about 20hrs in the real aircraft, but I back that up with practice on Microsoft Flight Simulator, which is practically free. It's not nearly as realistic as the PNPT II but with a world wide database of VOR/ILS/NDB and everything else it's actually very useful. I don't have an instructor with me on the computer, but sometimes I prefer to practice on my own. As far as training that is logged is concerned IMHO nothing beats the real thing and as long as you learn in plane you already know well you shouldn't have too much trouble keeping up.

[PAPI-74]

Yes, I did the same of Elite8.0.
It really helps you to understand the scan and develop spacial awareness.

[FlyingForFun]

don't think 15 hours in the aircraft is quite enoughDo you think that it's more likely that I will pass in minimum hours if I do all the training in an aeroplane?Sorry, no, that's not what I meant at all. Let me see if I can explain it any better.

You should start your training in the sim. Spend as long in the sim as it takes for you to be able to do everything to (near enough) test standard. Expect this to be around 25 hours minimum.

Once you can do this, you should then move to the aircraft. Spend as long in the aircraft as it takes to be able to do everything to test standard. Expect this to be around 20 hours minimum. Then do your test.

What I was trying to say in my earlier post (but obviously didn't say very well) was that if you spend the maximum hours in the sim that can be counted towards your course, then move into the aircraft, you will probably overrun because it takes slightly more than the minimum number of hours in the aircraft to get used to the differences - around 20, vs the minimum of 15. (That's differences between a real aircraft vs a sim, real ATC vs instructor, real background chatter on the r/t, NDBs doing whatever they feel like in real life vs behaving perfectly in the sim, etc.) Don't leave the sim until you are completely ready - but if you are ready to leave the sim before you reach the maximum countable hours, then do so - and this will allow you to fly slightly more than the minimum number of hours in the aircraft, but still complete the course in minimum (total) hours.

What I did not mean to imply is that you should do all your training in the aircraft. This would, I would guess, be more likely to result in the course overrunning (due to inevitable ATC delays, having to reposition the aircraft for approaches, and so on), and inferior training (due to being unable to tailor the ATC environment to your skill level - I make sure my students have all experienced "difficult" ATC in the sim, and my boss would probably sack me if I didn't do so, but you may not get a difficult controller in real life when you actually want one!)

Hope that makes it clearer.

FFF
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[bxkflier]

I'll chime in with my $0.02 - IR is tough. Probably one of the toughest to master.
I spent days :ugh:. Honestly. figured I had better go get a job at the supermarket.

I logged a lot of hours in that Frasca, some with an instructor, some on my own. But remember, with a sim, it can be set with no wind!! So, which is easier, figuring the basics out and then flying real world, or juggling with wind corrections at 8,0000, and wondering why it isn't working.

And, then one day, when you can't take it any more (teardrop, direct etc.), and think it's time for Sainsbury's trainee program, it clicks. And it becomes second nature.

So, I guess the long winded answer above agrees, sim first, then real aircraft. It will save you in the long run.

Good Luck