Flight Crew Rostering Commitees!!!!!

[JB007]

Hey Guys,

Has anybody else, within their organisation had a Rostering Commitee which include's a small group of Pilot's and Cabin Crew set up by Flight Management who's sole purpose ( or so it seems ) is to completly tear apart their own roster's and the way we as a Crew Control Department do things ?

Well, at The Worlds Favorite Low Cost we have. Am I alone or should these guys concentrate on doing their jobs and let us get on with ours ? I have yet to experiance a full meeting as, luckily for me, they seem to fall on my nightshifts, but from what I hear, they really have no-idea on what we do......

I know crew like to have an input in roster's for the obvious of reason's but if anybody has experiance of these groups and if they are been of constructive use for Crewing/Rostering staff, I'd love to how....

007

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[This message has been edited by JB007 (edited 10 December 1999).]

[paperpusher]

JB007,
I was speaking to the icecream man today about the above.
He's actually on yr side, couldn't understand the TL situation. He hopes his side does a better job!
Re BMA you picked up on that quickly
rgds thks

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Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.




[This message has been edited by paperpusher (edited 11 December 1999).]

[JB007]

Pp,

Dare I try this one in our own Forum....


007

[paperpusher]

JB,
In a word NO.......
although my post has started off again!
could now start to be interesting.

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Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.

[ghost-rider]

I've had no experience with roster-committees themselves, but I once heard about flight-crew actually stating that crewing were paid commission on everyone they called out from standby ! How's that for ignorance !?

[excrewingbod]

JB007,

These meetings are designed to keep the crews happy. NEVER, have these meetings had any positive effect for Crewing, especially your blood pressure.

Its the management way of slopping the shoulders and blaming us for all of the airline's problems, lack of crews, etc!!

[cj]

What an exciting concept that must be, Pilots actually understanding what goes into constructing a roster!
At the end of the day, all aircrew are interested in is their own social life, whats in it for me, how much can I 'screw' the company for and have no interest in what other considerations have to be taken into account when producing the roster.
I do my level best to limit the imput of Pilots into a roster, and only allow those that have a vested interest (i.e. training manager).

[Jetdriver]

CJ

"All aircrew are interested in is their own social life"..... What a pitiful lack of understanding you exhibit !

This week alone I volunteered to give up a day off in order to do a long flight (15 hours split duty). Only to have it changed because someone in crewing wanted to do " a favour" for a friend. As a result that day off became a standby...complete waste of time.
The following day I was phoned at departure time minus 45 mins for a 13 hour FDP. The reason the flight had " mistakenly" not been crewed with a Captain. Did I take my time getting in ? No ! Because like many of my collegues I take a great deal of personal pride in not inconveniencing our customers and in supporting my company. The flight eventually departed only 30 mins late, and actually arrived back on schedule !
All this happened because some " spotty youth" in crewing failed to do his job properly ! (How offensive do you find that ?)

You should go flying with a crew on a difficult weeks roster and see it from their perspective. Pilots have an enormous responsibility for the safety and welfare of the hundreds of passengers and crew under their authority. Not much risk in front of your computer screen eh ?

Pilots input into the roster construction can only be beneficial, unless you have something to hide or fear. As with all co-operation the benefits should become apparant even if it does mean the "end of empire"!

Given your apparant lack of understanding and perception I would suggest the sooner the better !

[GOLLUM]

The problem is that the only people to talk to crewing is those that moan/complain about their roster, so one tends to become a little cynical. I don't know you Jetdriver, but I know of your kind, and i am sure you are appreciated?, they certianly are here.
All airlines these days tend to operate on a grace and favour system. Traditionally Cockpit Crewing have spared with each other, and it can be a good thing
TTFN

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Not all those who wander are lost;


[This message has been edited by GOLLUM (edited 11 December 1999).]

[JB007]

Ok Chaps,

Excrewingbod - your absolutley right, I never thought of it that way, The commitee is not in the slightest bit constructive but it keeps the crew happy - very clever...

CJ - your right too, in most airline's i've worked for the only people who have an input into roster's are Flight Management and their input is for commercial reasons.

Jetdriver - We are not in the slightest bit having a go at your company good will, most pilots I know go out of their way to help out the Operation when it fall's over but don't tar all Crewing department's with your's which obviously has great in-experiance. My point was are Pilot's input into roster construction actually a help to the Crewing department or just a hindrance, I think you've just proved my point old boy.....
And please don't give me the "Pressure of looking after customer's safety" crap - that's what your paid for.


007

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The World is not Enough


[This message has been edited by JB007 (edited 12 December 1999).]

[Jetdriver]

JB 007,

I do realise what I am paid for JB, Though it is kind of you to remind me. Trouble is fulfilling that mandate is partly dependant on controlling some of the dross that opposes that that requirement. If I have proved your point (what ever that may be) then good !

Over the years we as pilots and crew have learned the valuable lessons to be learned from resource management. Perhaps it is time some of you did likewise. Maybe then the words Customer Safety and crap wouldn't appear in the same sentence !

[quarterback]

Jet Driver......
To clarify CJ's comment.....
"All THE MAJORITY OF crew are interested in is their social life"...
And after a baker's dozen in this game,
I think I've seen more than enough muppets
who are only interested in posing in the local bars/clubs to qualify my statement.....

Yes, I cannot disagree that a minority of crew still have the scruples and enthusiasm
to want to help out, and generally they are the ones who get helped by crewing in return...Your own crowd sound (from your comments) like they've not fully grasped the plot (maybe due to a lack of experience), but PLEASE don't tar the rest of the industry with the same "sable-hair".....

To give a good indication, the follwoing are some of the quotes I can remember receiving or hearing of over the years.....

"Why are you calling me???? I'm on standby!!"

"Why are we late?? I've got dinner planned for later tonight"

"What's the reason for the slot??" -- Airport arrival restrictions Captain --
"Well can't you reroute me to get round them???"

"Do you realise that it's 04.00??" --
Yes, but that's when your standby starts --
"Well it's too early..I'm not f*****g flying."

"You're only doing this to increase the bonus you get paid for call-outs!!"

Need I continue ??
(Because I could easily fill something the size of "War & Peace" if I need to).

Believe me, Jet Driver, people like yourself
(ie those who still want to fly for a living)
are few and far between, and getting less by the day.

And I'd change the stress you get "upstairs" for the chance to see you face the type of s**t that we face daily for 12 hours at a time.....

Over to you pal....

QB

[GOLLUM]

JB, don't beat about the bush mate, go for it. glad I don't do your job.

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Not all those who wander are lost;

[JB007]

Quarterback...

Couldn't have said it better myself !!!

007

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The World is not Enough

[Jetdriver]

Well,

I thought this subject was about the suspicion aroused by the concept of having pilots input into roster construction. It rapidly became clear that it was more about letting common sense become the victim of prejudiced vitriol.

I have to say that despite this thread I still hold crewing and operations in high regard (most of the time). Never the less I still maintain that Pilots input into a subject that is of importance to the whole safety and regularity of the operation is a positive move forward.

If you dont like it ....Cest la vie !

Next time I am asked for a favour I will remember the comments "muppets" and the like......Actually I probably wont, because I don't work for you. You are the hired help too..whatever you may think. Co-operation is the way forward. It will happen.

You might even find that it makes your job easier, although I doubt that is of prime importance.

Quaterback. I am sure that you can quote dozens of examples of the sort you list. I could retort with umpteen examples every year for the last 20 odd years but it is a futile exercise.

If you want to do my job, then be my guest. I suspect your views would probably change radically. I am amazed that you think my views are the minority viewpoint. If that were true wouldn't you ask why ?? Wouldn't you want to encourage the input and transformation that would be necessary to put right such a sorry state of affairs ? Reading some of the comments here it would appear not !

They say.. "If it aint broke dont fix it !" well it would appear from your comments that something is seriously broke......What would you suggest?

[ghost-rider]

Jetdriver, I understand your concerns, as well as others posted on this thread. Whilst I have every respect for your attitude towards ops & crewing, and your professionalism, I must agree with some of the points raised here about the grief that crwing recieve from flightdeck and cabin-crew.
Should crews be involved in rostering ? Personally, I think yes, for the simple reason it's the crews who are being rostered - but only the senior crews, ie training captains etc.
The point that seems to be getting forgotten is that we're al here to do a job for the same company (whichever one that is) and we should all be flying the same flag.
Most people here have valid points, but as previously stated, rostering is a contentious issue. (I'm in Ops and I'd hate to do rostering or crewing!)
But again as mentioned, how can it be improved to the benefit of everyone ?

[JB007]

Ok,

So, general feeling is Flightcrew want the input into roster's and Crewing/Rostering departments don't want to entertain them.

Jetdriver - your first posting is the attitude we have to put up with all the time in this job but understandable after your own Crewing department's cock-up.....

So going back to my original posting - suggestions please on how to make this work....?

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The World is not Enough

[cj]

JetDriver
obviously touched a raw nerve. Perhaps should have said 'majority' rather than lump all aircrew together.
What goes into making a roster - do you actually have any idea? You obviously know what goes into flying the 'machine' your line of business.
Commercial come up with this all swinging amazing network of schedules. When times are queried, normally their response is, 'slot control'.
Rostering examine this work of art, suggest the level of aircrew required to operate it. This is done not only to ensure programme cover, including standby, but also in the hope that some level of decent social life is available to aircrew.
Senior management look at these figures, load and behold, 'can't possibly budget for that - reduce the number'
So what happens you end up rostering to minimum days off, and maximum flying. Rather than have any type of buffer, those in day to day operations have to rely on 'favours'. Not ideal for anyone.
Who has the better job - we both do, as you do what you enjoy & I do what I enjoy. And no it is not seeing how or who I can screw around today. I am the first to admit why make work when it is not necessary.

If your own company needs additional support or staff training, I am available to any senseable offers!

A lot of company's use computer rostering, which should be totally impartial when 'throwing' the roster together, but at the same time if used correctly you won't have that last minute panic for lack of essential crew. Can recommend such a system if needed.

[ghost-rider]

Computer rostering is great at picking the random crew for flights, and looks fine on paper and in theory. Everyone has a nice plan for the month that (in theory) will work.

However, the thing that will always make rosters change is the human factor - ie crews going sick, FTLs etc (and before I get slated for insinuating crews should never go sick - I'm not !).

Crewing then have the unenviable task of filling the sick or out of hours crew members position, often with little notice and possibly a tight ATC slot, which is not ideal for the replacement crew member either. Early morning callout, extra sectors, a/c swaps, delays will all weigh heavily on the crews morale especially if this happens regularly.

Crews should also remember - and this isn't meant to sound patronising - that ops / crewing have the 'bigger picture' of what is happening fleet-wide for not just that day, but several days in advance, and the knock on effects of the problem in hand, whereas the poor crew are naturally just concerned about what is happening to them at that particular moment.

This is one of the biggest causes of roster disruption, and I can't see anyway round it - unless our bosses are going to provide us with loads of spare a/c and loads of standby crews to sit around the airport 'just in case' - unfortunately I can't see that hapening !


[This message has been edited by ghost-rider (edited 12 December 1999).]

[ALTSELGREEN]

Hey boys and girls, Ive been a crewing assistant, crewing officer, ops controller and now fly for a living. I used to think crew had the life of riley.....big money...loads of time off etc etc. Believe you me, its not like that on the other side of the fence.....its hard work.......

[cj]

Sorry ALTSELGREEN couldn't possibly let you get away with comments like that.

Do I assume that your line of work is harder than that of crewing, I think not. All in all, everyones profession has its degree of difficulty.

If you have worked your 'way up' from the ground floor, you will know and appreciate just how difficult crewing can be, as can flying at times.
When you report for duty, your only consideration is your flight, nothing else concerns you. Subject to the size of the operation, you are probably just a small fish in a very large bowl. Crewing & Ops have the entire fleet to take care of, which will no doublt include multiple a/c types, all with their own little quirks.

I must confess my dealings with aircrew that have come from operations/crewing enviroments normally are the ones that can cause the majority of problems. Things like 'when I was in Ops or crewing' we had to do this or that. Things move on, rules change, airlines grow, what you probably had to do bares no relation to todays problems.

Whatever you do, don't patronise us, we work just as hard as the next person, and when you take into account the 12 hour shifts worked thats likely to be 96 in 14 days, 01 more than you are allowed to do as a pilot, so who actually works harder!!

[hopefull]

Re pilot input into roster building. A good idea but only if its pilots who actually fly for a living who have the input. Don't get union reps involved. All they (appear) to be interested in is causing conflict and friction with the company. Get everyone sat down as ADULTS, or have we forgotton how to do that.

Jetdriver - all airlines are interested in is increasing the profits to appease the city and the board of directors. We all know how much co-operation it takes to run an effective flying program. All the directors see is on-time performance figures. Whoever invented statistics should be shot.

Come the revolution all airlines will be run by people who know what is going on!!!!!!

[Too Low Gear]

Wow,
Sorry, I’m usually just a lurker but this thread could not go unanswered. I find that when in conflict with others it helps to put oneself in their shoes to at least try to understand their point of view. To that end, over the years my view of schedulers and ops controllers has come down to this. Underpaid, overworked individuals with a mandate from management to get the flights off, keep the operation going and fill in the holes when the inevitable happens and it all goes pear shaped. All this with an imposed level of resources that is often (probably in both our opinions) not adequate. My experience has been that the majority of schedulers that I have worked with have been decent people with a difficult job and that they are not out to get us. They just want to crew the flight. That doesn’t mean that there has not been the occasional individual who resorts to petty, unprofessional behavior in the performance of their job just as I know that there are pilots who do the same.

Now, a bit about what it is that we do. Piloting is a profession that, from the day we take our first lesson, imbues us with an allegiance first to safety, and all other things second. Jobs and airlines may come and go, but we have an obligation to see that our aircraft is operated in as safe a manner as possible and sometimes that obligation requires us to say no to our employer. Mine is one of the few jobs that I can think of that not just allows me to do that but requires it. (For my employers own good, whether he knows it or not) I think that this is a big part of what causes so much resentment of pilots by others in the airline. And I’ll admit, we are not always the most diplomatic of groups while exercising these responsibilities.

Ghostrider, let’s talk about the big picture. That you have a better picture of how the operation is going to come together over the next few hours/days/weeks I have no doubt. There is another part of that picture which is my responsibility. My world consists of my flight (and the conditions under which it is operated), my duty day, my trip schedule, my aircraft, my crew and my passengers. Unfortunately, if an accident happens, it’s going to happen in my world and that is precisely why the scope of my interests is limited in relation to yours. I would argue that the importance is no less. Aircraft accidents have been known to put airlines out of business. It may be cliché, but you really can’t do a cost/risk/benefit analysis of safety. If you study the chain of events that often leads to accidents, it is usually not just one thing that causes it. Part of my job is to try to identify those “links” in the chain before they become critical. Am I sometimes over-cautious? Most certainly, but at least try to put yourself in the position of being at the end of a 12 hour duty day, at 0300 with 300 passengers and less fuel than you would like, shooting an approach in bad weather. I’m not complaining, it’s part of my job-“what I’m paid for” but it is also a big part of what colours how I operate and interact with the company. Some of this conflict and tension between us is a natural part of "the system". We need to understand that and accept it.

Snicker if you will jb007 and quarterback but consider this, 10% of any identifiable group is made up of jerks/miscreants/whiners...etc. That’s 10% of pilots, 10% of schedulers, 10% of ops controllers, 10% of managers (oops, sorry okay 25%+ of managers). My experience in 17 years of flying has proven the 10% rule. Ask yourselves if your opinions are being formed by the 10%’ers or the other 90%. If you really think that the percentage is more, maybe it’s time to put yourself in the other blokes’ shoes or maybe take a look in the mirror and ask if you are perhaps the other side of the same coin. A bit longwinded maybe, but just 2 more thoughts: "legal doesn’t mean safe" and in the words of that misunderstood American, Rodney King, “Why can’t we all just get along.”

Okay, ready, fire, aim.....


[This message has been edited by Too Low Gear (edited 16 December 1999).]

[JB007]

Ready, Fire, Aim.....

Hell No - I'd like to buy you a beer....

I've been in this business nearly 10 years personally and about 20 years following my father on jump seats and as it happens i'm jumping on the band wagon and sitting ATPL exams in the new year....

I can see both side's of the coin, but at the moment I work for an airline where I have never, in all the 10 years, taken so much crap !!!!!

You Sir, talk perfect sense.....we need a few more of you.


007

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The World is not Enough

[JB007]

Paperpusher,

I knew this was a good subject.....please let me post it in our own forum.....

007

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The World is not Enough

[ALTSELGREEN]

Dear cj

You seem to have misunderstood my comments-
You do a very demanding job. And it was no different when I did it. I had snotty captains bauling down the phone at me for calling them on days off....Had cabin crew tell me to foxtrot oscar when I had to call them out at 0430 in the morning...I can remember ATC Problems so severe that we cancelled the rosters and told everyone to come back in when they were in hours to go somewhere? I've dealt with mixed fleets
too. One firm I worked for had 6 different fleets. I've had to stand in front of a Commercial Manager and tell him that we can't crew a series of flights...Ive been there over and over......I chose to change my direction and all I am saying is that aircrew life is not as easy as many people think..... In most aspects,it is a very demanding and unforgiving profession.

[cj]

Well now that we've all vented our spline at each other, I believe the original thread was Pilot imput into rosters.

These I have found to be very hard to make work. Meetings are held, views expressed, lots of nodding by both Pilots & Management, agreement reach meeting end.

However, when these local agreements are implemented by rostering, who try to follow the glide lines, not enough crews is normally the outcome. Report back to management, first thing out the door, forget the agreements, get the flights rostered. Roster issued, loads of 'pissed off' pilots complaining about the local agreements they thought they had.

There is far too much commercial pressures for reasonable and socialable rosters to be produced. Too much envisome is put on rostering to the minimum requirements of 371.
Somehow senior management have to realise that the minimum is just that and should not be used as the brench mark for standard practices.

If those that have to deal with the aircrew were listened to, and we were allowed to roster to how any half decent rosterer would prefer, there wouldn't actually be a need for a committee, rosters would be sensible. But then how often is 'sensible' used when dealing with senior management!

Computers do make life easier, at least a decent system does, ensure everything & everyone is legal. With legal, additionally read safe. Only the operating crew know how safe they feel. If a crew member doesn't wish to undertake any duty offered to them, I personally accept their decision, unless it relates to a specific cap371 rule that has been mis-interpretated.

Lets all be honest here, company's will never recruit the correct number of aircrew to offer quality of life above or beyond the minimum requirement. So all us crewing folks can do is attempt to make the best of a bad decision.

[paperpusher]

JB,
Go for it, but remember the reasoned argument that has happened here, and it has been interesting reading, will be turned on its head as soon as it hits the private forum floor. The crew will input their own personal stories of 99hrs in 28days as the norm, minimum days off as the norm, being called on their days off as the norm. These people should be talking to the Managers, but it will be you who are put up against the wall. But I will be there to lob the odd banger in.
good luck

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Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.

[JetLag]

cj,

I don't see your responce to ALTSELGREEN.
In his post he didn't ever say that his job was more demanding or difficult than your's. he merely pointed out that the grass is always greener on the other side...
You jumped on him saying you could not let him get away with comments like that. Comments like what? That the other side is not as easy as it seems.
Read his post and your responce over again and take a look in the mirror after.

[cj]

Jetlag

Obviously your interpretation differs to mine, abit like when people read CAP371.

I found the reference that its hard work being a pilot, at the same time comparing his previous roles in crewing & Ops.

Having been in the business for over 20 years I would not wish to compare who has the more important role, as we all play a major part in the running of the airline.

We all have good days & bad.

I certainly don't need a mirror to look into, do you?

[JetLag]

ALTSELGREEN
Hey boys and girls, Ive been a crewing assistant, crewing officer, ops controller and now fly for a living. I used to think crew had the life of riley.....big money...loads of time off etc etc. Believe you me, its not like that on the other side of the fence.....its hard work.......

Now, where in this post is he comparing his present job with his previous roles? He just says that he had a different view on the job of flight crew when he was on the other side. I'm pretty sure that it would be the same if a pilot would go to work at crewing or ops. You don't know what it's like until you experience it. To make it completely clear: I mean that both ways!

cj
What an exciting concept that must be, Pilots actually understanding what goes into constructing a roster!
At the end of the day, all aircrew are interested in is their own social life, whats in it for me, how much can I 'screw' the company for and have no interest in what other considerations have to be taken into account when producing the roster.
I do my level best to limit the imput of Pilots into a roster, and only allow those that have a vested interest (i.e. training manager).

To me it sounds like you have developed a grudge against flight crew in your 20 years in the business. This is why I brought up the mirror.

[This message has been edited by JetLag (edited 19 December 1999).]

[cj]

Thats obviously the impression that has been conveyed, which unfortunately is wide of the mark.

As your bone of contention obviously stems from how I have read the posting do you not think that those in Ops & Crewing actually know how difficult your job is! Do we need it pointed out to use in a patronising manner, I think not.
I to have experienced life from a flying view-point in the loadmaster trips I have done. Yes not flying the aircraft, but just as long, if not longer duty, with the R&R at the end!!

I still hold my original view-point rostering committees are a fine idea, especially on paper, just never seem to work in practise. Unless the pilots that form the committee have a good all-round grasp of CAP371 and not we only want, want is there any point in having the committee in the first place.

Jetlag, does your company have a rostering committee?

[PHANTOMMENACE]

cj

Or should I call you pilot hater?
Mega chip on your shoulder.
When you were a little boy did you grow up saying that you always wanted to be a crewing officer?
I think not!!!

[cj]

Phantommenace
Whose throwing their toys out the pram now :)

It's easy to have a go at me, and make all sorts of assumptions to my upbringing etc.

Instead of going for the easy route, why not participate and offer some points of view on rostering committee's which is what this thread started as.

I have been extremely forthright and above board, with experiences of rostering committees, as unpopular as they have proved to be. I do notice that with the exception of one other (see @why do the job') only pilots have taken exception to this posting, why's this?



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know the truth, speak the truth, but above all live the truth.

[GOLLUM]

It appears that everybody's off on a slag off the otherside trip. The question originally set by JB. was a simple one, set to hopefully get views from allsides, whatever those views maybe. It seems to me, and it's only my opinion, rostering, have to look all parts of the whole, and try to cover all eventualities, Pilots (no offence gents/ladies)tend not to see the whole or the pitfalls,and look for a good, stable roster, which is not always possible. This is where it falls apart. Some Pilots are able to see 360 deg' but in my experiance these guys are not the norm. Trying to get the right people in the right place is the trick. Let Rostering, Roster, Pilots, Pilot, and input from Training, and senior Pilots where applicable.
Just my opinion...

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Not all those who wander are lost;

[CREWSLAPPER]

Pointless exercise.
Pilots will always come first and foremost. They are a Companies most valued asset.
How many times have you reported an incident of difficulty with a crew member to a chief pilot? Amazing how 9 times out of 10 you never hear the outcome. Or it comes back twisted round with the finger pointed back at the crewing department. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif