Does a refuelling need Customs? [Archive]

Fuji Abound

24th Sep 2007, 15:44

I dont know the answer but I can see where you are coming from.

It seems so stupid that you cant stop just for fuel given that you are not leaving the airport confines.

Looking at it logically, I can however see a valid argument against.

There are plently of grass strips with fuel where you could stop just for fuel. However, these are not sterile areas.

You could claim you were stopping for fuel whilst dropping off half a dozen illegal immigrants who would be through the non existant perimeter fence before they could say Ooo la la.

In theory this would not be possible at larger customs airports becasue airside is sterile and at smaller customs airports, customs might be watching you!

Of course the stupidity of the whole process is highlighted by several of my trips to France. I now routinely ask the Customs airport whether they want me to stop, or whether a T and G and or low level fly past will do. Often they chuckle, tell me customs are not here today anyway and be on your way! Is that legal - I have no idea, but if ever I am asked I shall say I was told by the Tower not to stop. (not much help if you only want fuel I agree).

Compare the hoops we have jump through with yachties who I suspect could cram far more immigrants into their focsle that we could fit in a spam can.

bookworm

24th Sep 2007, 15:55

Chicago Convention 1944

Article 10
Landing at customs airport

Except in a case where, under the terms of this Convention or a special authorization, aircraft are permitted to cross the territory of a contracting State without landing, every aircraft which enters the territory of a contracting State shall, if the regulations of that State so require, land at an airport designated by that State for the purpose of customs and other examination. On departure from the territory of a contracting State, such aircraft shall depart from a similarly designated customs airport. Particulars of all designated customs airports shall be published by the State and transmitted to the International Civil Aviation Organization established under Part II of this Convention for communication to all other contracting States.

Fuji Abound

24th Sep 2007, 16:01

Of course if you had to divert due to an immediate technical problem .. .. ..

IO540

24th Sep 2007, 16:45

That text, bookworm, appears to say that any State you overfly is entitled to force you down for an examination, which is obviously true. And that one has to do this at a Customs airport, which is also obviously true.

I was talking of a voluntary refuel stop. A Customs airport has an "airside" (at least, during its Customs hours) which means one can land there without leaving "airside".

How do airlines and business jets do their refuelling, without everybody (or anybody) having to clear Customs?

BackPacker

24th Sep 2007, 17:08

IO540, can you elaborate a bit on your scenario? Within Europe, the only way you've got to show your papers to customs is either when entering the Schengen area from non-Schengen (that's the UK, for all practical purposes, considering the audience here), or vice versa.

The only way I see your scenario being a problem is when you fly UK to UK, with a fuel stop in France, or fly Schengen to Schengen, with a fuel stop in the UK. Not very likely scenarios, IMHO.

Or does this have something to do with the Channel islands? Have to admit I do not know their legal status exactly, and the availability/hassle of customs there.:confused:

IO540

24th Sep 2007, 17:21

No, it concerns a landing a bit further out than that, where an airport refused a landing for a refuel *only* because they did not receive PPR for Customs.

Zulu Alpha

24th Sep 2007, 17:29

I once went to Southampton to clear outbound to Alderney. The children were sleeping in the back. They made us wake them up and take them through the terminal only to have to turn round and go through Xray, security customs etc. to get back airside. As there were no flights leaving at that time they had to start all the equipment to screen us.

Ridiculous, as we had only stoppped to clear outbound and the immigration/customs man had come out to the aircraft anyway.

Never went there again.

mm_flynn

24th Sep 2007, 18:18

Reading Bookworms quote I would interpret as

1 - If your flight is permitted by this convention or other special authorization to overfly a state then you are allowed to overfly the state.

2 - If you are going to stop in a State (or are compelled by their overflight rules to stop) the State can require that your first stop in and last stop out are at Customs airports and the State must make the list of Customs airports available.

I can see no reason why a technical stop on an international flight should be allowed to use a domestic airport. The whole logic of an international port is that there is a part that is 'outside the country' and a line which is then 'inside the country' as long as you stay 'outside' you don't need to pay import duties, have Visas, ditch goods that are prohibited in that country. Landing at some random internal location defeats the whole logic - how would you argue you hadn't 'entered the country'??

States can always make rules that say 'If you are from XX then it is OK to enter somewhere other than a Customs Port'. And of course Emergencies are different - you need to receive permission in triplicate before you can crash;)

IO540

24th Sep 2007, 18:27

Slopey

24th Sep 2007, 19:18

where an airport refused a landing for a refuel *only* because they did not receive PPR for Customs.

not a case of
"G-ABCD, no PPR, no Customs, no fuel"
"Roger, G-ABCD"
"Wherever Tower, G-ABCD"
"G-ABCD, Wherever Tower, pass your message"
"Wherever Tower..... Mayday! Out of fuel!"

:}:}:}

EvilKitty

24th Sep 2007, 20:03

AIP General 1.2.1.1 (Eire, N. Ireland, IoM, Channel Islands), 1.2.1.2 (arrival from EU) and 1.2.1.3 (arrival from non-EU). http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/gen/10102.PDF

The provisions are based on first landing within the UK - even if not for disembarkation.

Wrong Stuff

24th Sep 2007, 20:12

No dispute about needing to land at a Customs airport if one is landing non-Schengen etc etc.

The Q is why one needs to clear Customs when the actual activity is just a refuel, when everybody can remain airside.
IO540 - your question seems to imply that airside is some sort of international no-man's-land, rather than part of the country itself. Whilst states have the option of treating it as such, it need not necessarily be so and probably isn't ever treated as such. In the UK it plainly isn't so - you can clear customs from many airfields that have no meaningful border between airside and landside. Although not as obvious, it's the same at a number of foreign airfields - for example La Baule, Courchevel, Saanen and Lausanne. Conversely, you can be airside at an international airport with a clear distinction between airside and landside - for example Paris CGD and Orly - and you still need to meet the transit visa requirements even if you're not even getting off the aircraft.

mm_flynn

24th Sep 2007, 20:14

IO540, I didn't quite understand the original question. Certainly at a 'proper' international airport you do not need to clear customs for just a refuel. I suspect (but this is a guess) the answer is in your second post -
A Customs airport has an "airside" (at least, during its Customs hours) and a 'customs by PPR' airport probably does not have an 'airside' unless the PPR has been applied for.

If I understand the scenario - you are planning to land in a country which would require customs clearance if you were to go landside, the airport is Customs by say 12 hrs PPR, No customs notification has been made as you don't plan to clear customs as it is only a technical stop, the airport refuses your landing.

From the State's perspective I can see that they could deem the airport to be a Customs airport only if the PPR process has been complied with. I can also imagine that this facility is designed for arrivals only, not transits. Certainly this is true in the UK, where you can not treat a concession aerodrome as an international aerodrome for anything other than a normal GA arrival or departure.

IO540

24th Sep 2007, 20:15

For some reason most people assume that (a) nobody flies very far outside the UK, and (b) the pilot had no fuel left.

I am looking for more general references (ICAO, perhaps, but one could start with say Italy or Greece) on whether or why the pilot+passengers have to enter the terminal and clear Customs when it's just a fuel stop.

Airlines and bizjets do fuel stops routinely, without clearing Customs. I did one a few years ago (747), with everybody remaining aboard. How does that work? In GA terms, I have refuelled at say Biarritz on a UK-Spain flight without going anywhere near Customs (stood around the aircraft).

One obvious issue is when one needs to leave airside to pay for the fuel.

mm_flynn - you assume correctly and that (PPR for Customs, or part-time Customs) is probably the heart of the matter.

However, take this example:

Pilot 1 lands at 0900, having given PPR for Customs. He is OK. "Airside" is "airside".

Pilot 2 lands at 0905, not having given PPR for Customs. "Airside" is not "airside" now??

EvilKitty

24th Sep 2007, 20:46

Going a bit further afield...

US Federal Code Title 14 Part 375:

§ 375.24 Entry and clearance.

All U.S. entry and clearance requirements for aircraft, passengers, crews, baggage and cargo shall be followed.
Ok, so maybe not what you was after...

From your example, Pilot 1 gave PPR and so customs/immigration was notified. They may (according to the laws of the appropriate land) decided that no further action was necessary, but they knew about it so all's well - or they may have decided to show up to take a look. Pilot 2, however, didn't notify, so customs/immigration were not aware and so had no say in the matter.

I think it comes down to whatever the law of the land is concerning border protection, customs and immigration - the relevant AIP Gen 1.2 (I knew they were all the same for a reason:}) should be able to tell you...

DFC

24th Sep 2007, 21:15

Just to add to a previous post,

You can not have pasengers on board an aircraft when refueling with Avgas.
No airport want to have passengers hanging round on the ramp while the aircraft is being refueled. Thus passengers have to go landside and back and hence need not only customs but immigration.

As an example, most countries that require a Visa do not require one for transit passengers but other countries require certain nationals to have transit visas even if they never leave the airside.

So please remember that it is not just customs but also immigration, health, agriculture, security services and so on who are part of the entry and exir requirements.

If there was no where else to go and lack of fuel was a safety issue then it would be right for the pilot to insist on landing however, they could expect to have to remain in the aircraft for however many minutes (or hours) it takes the proper authorities to arrive.

However without knowing the exact airport, it is not possible to say for sure if the actions were normal or correct.

Regards,

DFC

bookworm

24th Sep 2007, 21:46

No, it concerns a landing a bit further out than that, where an airport refused a landing for a refuel *only* because they did not receive PPR for Customs.

More than 10 years ago I met a US pilot who wanted to hire an aircraft to go to Greece. He didn't care much about the type of aircraft, as long as it had enough range so that he didn't have to stop in Italy to refuel.

Whether you were in the right, or in the wrong (and just at the mercy of an unhelpful ATS/airport) doesn't actually change the fact that you're never going to put your wheels down in Italy again, does it?

radicalrabit

25th Sep 2007, 09:26

This really made me smile as I frequently sat on the jetty at Ullapool having sandwiches and a natter with Spanish and French and Russian trawler men (and other Merchant types) who were just passing through. The customs man was seldom any where near and if he was it was Generally only for a blather and spot of lunch . Aviation does seem to have been singled out for closer sctutiny these days , Shame to wake the kids up for some "jobsworth" though, and laughable when you pass endless border controls without even needing a passport in these modern times of an open Europe.

IO540

25th Sep 2007, 09:37

Just to add to the soup here :) I have just heard from a very experienced airline ops man that as a default position refuelling does not need a customs declaration.

Obviously a specific airport can have whatever rules it likes - they can require you to wear pink underpants to get avgas - but it was the general principle I was after.

DFC

25th Sep 2007, 09:45

Your friend is correct in what they say.

However, it has absolutely no relevance to your problem.

Fuel (and other aircraft stores) taken on board an aircraft are free from customs requirements.

In simple terms all he has told you is that you do not have to declare to customs on arrival the fuel in the tanks that you are importing into the country or when leaving, the fuel you are exporting.

It is not the fuel you are having a problem with it is the people on the aircraft and their need for customs, immigration and so on to be in attendance for an arrival.

Once again please give us the location an I may be able to give a more specific answer.

Regards,

DFC

PPRuNe Radar

25th Sep 2007, 11:50

Make sure you are doing a 'rendition' flight on behalf of the USA, then you'll get technical stops without any hassle or bother from customs ... at least in the UK, allegedely. :yuk:

IO540

25th Sep 2007, 16:43

Somebody then tell me why I can stop at Biarritz or San Sebastian (to name but two) for a refuel, pay the fees, and remain airside the whole time?

DFC - he didn't say that. He specifically said that a fuel stop does not need Customs clearance.

This needs to be posted in a forum for "bigger planes" I think...

mm_flynn

25th Sep 2007, 17:27

IO, is the example a fuel stop staying airside at LFBZ from EGXX without providing PN to Société Aérienne du Pays Basque on the previous day? Or is it simply the question of the ability to stay airside with proper notification?

DFC

25th Sep 2007, 21:56

IO540,

Re Biarritz

The last time I was there, I noted that the handling agents office was located airside just to the left of the exit gate. You can go in there for whatever you want and still be airside.

Once again I say tell us exactly where you are asking about and you might get a direct answer.

Regards,

DFC

IO540

25th Sep 2007, 23:44

The last time I was there, I noted that the handling agents office was located airside just to the left of the exit gate. You can go in there for whatever you want and still be airside.

You are changing your tack DFC, correctly at last. And Biarritz is not the only place, by far, where this is so, and that includes the airport I have in mind.

In fact one can pay for most things remaining airside, nowadays, using cash or plastic.