730 Report on Pilot Training.

[corowacomet]

Just a heads up that the 730 Report is doing a story on pilot training tomorrow (Tuesday) night. From the advert it appears it will be based on synthetic trainers/MPL. Should be interesting.
And no doubt provoke some more of the measured, careful and well thought-out debate PPrune is renowned for!:E
The Comet.

[Towering Q]

The reporting should also be 'measured, careful and well thought-out'.

We should be grateful that ACA or TT haven't got hold of this topic...yet.:{

[hornet01]

should be interesting!!:ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

I will ensure my response is measured, careful and well thought-out. :}

[Lodown]

Capn Bloggs, why change now? I'm not.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Being a story from the 730 reportand the ABC, you can be sure it will be 'measured, careful and well thought-out'.............and all John Howard's fault!.

[speedbirdhouse]

Yes, those dastardly pinko commie apparachiks at the ABC !!!!

Far better to get your TV current affairs from today tonight and ACA :rolleyes:

[Capn Bloggs]

today tonight and ACA
Better looking than KOB too..

[eye_in_the_sky]

What time is it on?

[OhSpareMe]

What time is it on?

The 7.30 report? Dunno.

[GUARD]

About 8:15:D

[neville_nobody]

6:45 in the West
:confused::ugh:

[amos2]

Dick Smith is presenting it I believe! :rolleyes:

[En-Rooter]

What? The clown has been found out has he? :=

Is he going to give an honest assessment of his piloting skills? :D

Nob :ugh:

[Howard Hughes]

Why couldn't it be the Chaser boys doing the story, at least then we might get some facts...;)

[Roller Merlin]

From ABC 7.30 Report Website

Tonight on The 7.30 Report
Air Safety

The recent fatal plane crash in Phuket has raised new concerns about air safety and pilot training. Australia is considering a new licensing system for co-pilots which puts more emphasis on flight simulators over actual flying time. But critics warn this training is inadequate. Is air safety really being compromised? 7.30's Mark Willacy investigates.

[amos2]

No, No ,NO...Dick Smith investigates! :rolleyes:

[amos2]

Ah! Yes!...should have guessed...

ex airforce pilots who know F**kall about airline ops, are gonna tell the world how to do it!

Pathetic, Isn't it?

[amos2]

...and Gibson, this CASA turkey!...

what does he have?...

a PPL?

[eye_in_the_sky]

I can't believe I had someone take the bait! :)

[ACMS]

All that aside..........did anyone watch it? anything good?

[amos2]

So, you obviously didn't watch the 7:30 report Frozo?...

you Idiot!

[Oceanz]

Given the low minimum requirements for the MPL they mentioned ... I can only imagine that the pilots will have to clearly display a red P plate, not travel in excess of vref+80, be in before dark and not have any more than two passengers. :ugh:... and you'll graduate to a "lucrative position" :confused:

[amos2]

Strewth! Are you for real Mate?:rolleyes:

[Howard Hughes]

Ah! Yes!...should have guessed...
ex airforce pilots who know F**kall about airline ops, are gonna tell the world how to do it!
Pathetic, Isn't it?
Luckily AIPA are here to save us from the bad men...;)

[ACMS]

Just downloaded the show from abc.
Stewart Cameron was X RAAF according to the show, and I'll be he was a Pilot to.
A load of Bollocks I say.
Yeah that **** sim looked real enough.:D ooohhh heavy rain and crosswind
unbelievable.

[permFO]

TRAINEE PILOT: Note that the weather is raining.

And this astute observation from one of the lucky trainees:

"Aviation is cool. In Australia is the best in the world, the whole world. The instructor here, they are amazing. They have a lot of knowledge to teach us."

Not a mention was made as to how the holders of a Multi Crew License gets to be a Captain.

Its got nothing to do with enhancing safety but everthing to do with filling all those shiny new jets coming off the production line.

[ACMS]

Exactly.....

[Spaz Modic]

Yes. The new brave world of pilot training to get the RHS filled.
So the F/O turns up one morning and meets the Captain, who says " what's your flying experience mate?". Bloggs says: "200 hours Skipper - 190 of them in a simulator".
"190 hours in the simulator!!!?" exclaims the Captain.
"Yes" says Bloggs, "But it was high fidelity, because Stu said so on the 7:30 report"
Good Grief.:ugh:

[AllInGoodTime]

Bottom line, IF IT IS NOT BROKEN, WHY FIX IT.
They were saying that training in light singles is not relevant to flying 2 crew airline aircraft. Well it doesn't matter what you fly, what matters is getting very compotent at COMMAND DECISION making. Believe me, fly a single around the bush up north in a thunder storm, or coming in to land with Cross wind right on the max on a short dirt strip up north with plane full of pax, these things get your decision making skills honed right in. Or learning the pressure of commercial operations, dealing with passengers, loading aircraft, refuelling aircraft, making sure your get in before last light and juggling 3 chickens to boot, all the while your GA boss is on your back, you know what I mean. All these things happening at once, then get in the Aircraft and have to fly it after all the pressures I just mentioned. You can't teach that you have to learn that.
AND THIS FOOL FROM CASA, SAYING WELL WE CAN PRACTICE FAILING ENGINES ON A 747, YOU CAN'T PRACTICE THAT IN THE REAL WORLD. Well that is what you practice when you get to Qantas, and you will handle it alot better when you have had some real world experience.
The reason why Aussie pilots are so well respected around the world is because of the way we have all had to train and the great experience you get in this country. THE MOST DANGEROUS THING TO AVIATION IN THIS COUNTRY IS CASA, WITHOUT DOUBT!!!
:ugh::{:ugh::{:ugh::{:ugh::{:ugh::{:ugh::{:ugh:

[Spaz Modic]

Any truth in the rumour that CASA is moving headquarters to Mumbai?
Baldrick says Hooraaaaay!:D

[R.Cruizo]

OK Guys & Gals,
We were probably all expecting this response. All things aside I still don't understand WHY we need this licence in Australia???

Now more than ever there seems to be plenty of GA jobs out there for Newbies. And the regionals are starting to seriously hurt.

The 7:30 report quite correctly stated, The latest simulators can train pilots for situations not able to be reproduced in trainning aircraft.

OK, true to an extent. Why not put a 1000hr- 1500 hr GA pilot in there instead of someone with 10 hrs. Then they have the mix of both worlds.

RC

[AllInGoodTime]

R.Cruizo

That is a much more mature and calmer response than mine, I just get so angry with the Stupidity of CASA. You are correct, plenty of pilots around with some experience of the real world, give them a go.

[Boney]

Just watched it on the ABC website.

I think the quote was "driving rain" but the sim had about 10km vis. Maybe the instructor has seen about as much driving rain as the cadets.

The blind leading the blind - scary stuff but think of the size of the bonus mamagements get get from all the money saved?

[Bolty McBolt]

How do you know an airline pilot used to be in the RAAF ?

He will faarken tell ya :ok: :ok:

[Pluto's gone]

Didn't you realise that CASA's call centre is already in Mumbai? They just have us fooled with really good Aussie accents :)

[bushy]

How many of us remember being alone, way out in the middle of nowhere, saying "I'll never, ever do this again"
I don't think simulators can replicate that.
Maybe that's good.

[RENURPP]

I mean taking that logic to a conclusion would mean that during training Army Soldiers should shoot to kill at each other in order to ensure they experience that "tingly feeling in your balls "

Don't you read the papers?
They already do and from an in siders point of view he said they do it quite regularly.
[

[SmokingHole]

I wonder if YBAF's owners have worked out how to moniter the number of 'movements' on the sim and what the landing fees will be:E

Rekon Bob'n'Gordon would've got a little nostalgic over some of those shots :{

[R.Cruizo]

Guys,
Pass A Frozo's comments have some relevance but his Army analogy circumvents his arguement.

Running around Canungra or Singleton on Live fire excercise is great for trainning but the most respected man was always the Platoon Sergeant or CSM ( WO2). Until recently had seen Battle. Nothing replaces that experience.

State -of - art Simulators are an excellent trainning aid. They can reproduce situations not able to reproduced in a Trainning aircraft.

They have an important place : FOR ALREADY EXPERIENCED PILOTS!

RC

[FlexibleResponse]

Instant Pilots out of a box?

The Emperor is not wearing any clothes!

It's a crock of sh!t! And in time will be responsible for many innocent passenger deaths.

Perhaps we could also fix Australia's lack of medical doctors by training school kids on the internet?

[Charles Abetz]

The problem isn't the training whether we introduce the MPL or not.
The problem is rooting in Management of the Airlines, they view pilots as one poster put it an 'expense and therefore fail to look after their pilots. This has occurred in all professions thus we have shortage throughout.

But fall short of just blaming the Government eventually, the problem lies with the view that pilot training is too expensive! I like REX's advertisement recently.

Also there is more to life of a pilot than in a jumbo. "Training in Irrelevant single engine aircraft" - F**k off!

[Bolty McBolt]

How many of us remember being alone, way out in the middle of nowhere, saying "I'll never, ever do this again


To quote an SR71 pilot...

You have never been lost until you have been lost doing mach 3. :ok:

[Erin Brockovich]

FlexibleResponse that’s a great analogy. Let’s take it one step further.

This is a question to all you pro MPLers out there.……….. Would you send a loved one needing life threatening surgery to a surgeon who has only done an accelerated, simulated specialist course? Only an abbreviated medical diploma for the basics, 10 days experience as an intern and then some simulated surgery training. No Medical degree, no experience.

Unless your an idiot, then the answer is no. So why would anyone send loved ones up in a plane with an MPL pilot who is responsible for many lives, not just one.

Flying is still inherently dangerous. People just tend to forget that nowadays, especially if they know the instructor can hit the pause button if it gets out of shape. There is no substitute for decision making experience period.

As someone stated earlier, sims are an excellent training aid for experienced pilots. What do airlines look for in their interviews? Decision making thought processes during real scenarios. Not something that can be taught in a sim and applied later to unknown scenarios.

Another point is that these MPLs will never have an appreciation of the Captain’s responsibility, duties or role. They will essentially be the Captain’s secretary, look but don’t touch. Talk about a steep cockpit gradient and subsequent safety implications later on.

If this ridiculous scheme gets the nod, who will wear the blood if an 85ton 737NG carrying 200 people crashes because an MPL rated crewmember froze at the wrong time. CASA?

[SmokingHole]

So why would anyone send loved ones up in a plane with an MPL pilot who is responsible for many lives, not just one.

Unfortunately, unlike the face to face meeting you are likely to have with your surgeon, the fare paying public are never likely to see the crew, let alone meet them and ask of their qualifications. For the passenger, it is too late, they have already got a ticket and probably voted with their wallet for the cheaper airfare.

As an example, QF's minimum still states 500cmd, say 600TT. Not sure if anyone actually gets in with these mins. Maybe in QF's opinion the aptitude of the candidate is of more importance than the level of experience. I have met pilots with plenty of total time who would probably freeze at the wrong time... :ooh:

[R.Cruizo]

Quote: Frozo

"With all due respect I don't think you've spent any time in a quality simulator."

Oh yes I have!! If you want to argue the quality of a CAT D sim at Alteon take it up with Management there.

You can learn heaps in a proper Sim, I say you just can't replace experience on line.

[togaroo]

The traditional apprenticeship in GA has worked for Australia, Canada & USA because of supply and demand. In Europe, GA doesnt exist, it doesnt need to, so pilots traditionally have come from the military or intensive structured training programs. The MPL has come from Europe (specifically one well respected northern European Airline pushed for it) where there is a need to find people to fly multi crew aircraft because there isnt the experienced crews coming from the military or other sources, so there had to be another source. Questions should be asked, are the most suitable people being selected and trained for these positions, at the moment yes, but if the interest, terms and conditions continue to decline the best people for the job may not come forward, which would make things interesting.

As for experience, quality time making decisons as a commander is valuable but modern aircraft are more reliable than ever and in the current economic climate such 'hour' building in Europe isnt going to happen so the alternative is to put guys into the airline environment and let them gain thier expereince in a structured and managed environment.

The military have recruited and trained in this way for years, are people on this thread saying that young guys in their 20's shouldnt be flying multi engine or fast jets because they havent 'earnt' their wings flying around the mulga.

Not everyone who has 'done the hard yards' has the right to a job but if suitably able people with the right aptitude to be put through training and are managed then what is the problem.

The problem that so many airlines are having are that aircraft are very reliable and for pilots the simulator is the only place that you regularly get to deal with non normal situations. Are people saying that this 'experince' is not valid? Put it in another context, you can convert on a CCQ from the A320 to the A330 via the simulator only - a zero flight time course. Simulators allow time to train and give pilots valuable experience. Whilst a simulator cannot substitute for the real thing, I for one would rather train and have a SOP to deal with the real thing than muddle through. For those sitting on the GA side of the fence not haiving the benefit of being inside the Airline environment, the training is structured and audited by the airline and regulators, which I suggest is different to a GA environment.

Whilst Australians might not be able to get to grips with such a training program it is here to stay because economic circumstances dictate it, times are changing in Australia, not always for the better but this industry never stands still.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

R.C.:
Oh yes I have!! If you want to argue the quality of a CAT D sim at Alteon take it up with Management there.


To my understanding, Alteon has Cat D Simulators at Brisbane but the Sim/FTD that was shown on the 730 report was a DA40 (or DA42?) FTD which is equiv. to the old Cat B standard.

The current FTDs are streets ahead of the old ATC/Frasca types but still not good enough to substitute reality.

However, with the planet needing 50,000/100,000 Airline Pilots in the next decade, the MCL appears to be a way to make up the shortage.

Lowering the entry bar has been happening for some time. Airlines in Europe (Air Berlin etc) have for some time, taken on F/O's with a S/E IFR CPL with the first multi type endorsement being a 737NG/A320 in a Sim. Some regionals in the USA take on Dash8/ATR F/O's with less than 100 hours Multi.

We may not agree with the MCL but believe me, it's here to stay!. :sad:

[Jet_A_Knight]

The only experience you need to fly an airliner is the experience you get in an airline.

The rest is horse****e.

The benefit of the MPL is the fact that you are trained 'from the beginning' to operate as part of a team in a multi-crew simulated environment, without wasting valuable time and resources tooling around in aeroplanes that have no relevance to airline operations or flying.

It's obvious, that if you have alot of time and experience flying SPIFR in high performance pistons and turbines, dodging weather etc etc, you get so attached to the high workload and stress of keeping yourself out of harms way by yourself without the benefit of another pilot to help you catch out errors or deviations, that there is absolutely no way you can relinquish all that control and responsibility to another pilot in a multi-crew environment: it's just an impossible leap of faith to make....not to mention another skill-set that is impossible to learn after all other skill-sets one must learn.

Airline equipment is so good these days, an airline pilot doesn't need previous experience to get out of trouble - that's why there are multiple redundant systems on board, and radar to help them if they get lost.

I can't understand what the fuss is all about! The MPL crews will be taught how to strictly follow procedures, what to do, when to do it, all in high fidelity simulators, after all, there are plenty of SOPS around to follow, isn't there??

For fukc sake, they are going to do 10 landings in a real aeroplane before they get their licence!









:{

[RodH]

I have not posted much in this forum but this is one time I will.
The big problem that I see with the attitude of these " Sim " created pilots is that they think that it is just another video game .
If all goes awry you just hit the reset button and all will be fixed .
You can then start all over again without hurting anyone .
If you get confused or lost , simple , just hit reset and all is rosy in the garden again.
If the WX is too bad and you can't handle it " no probs " just hit reset and maybe it will go away " .
To quote the latest sayings of the young " How cool is that " .
They will end up living in a world of fantasy and not reality for quite some time .
Thats it , its just another video game or could be unless their mental attitude changes .
Rod H
:sad::sad::sad:

[Capt_SNAFU]

As has been stated simulators though good for procedures and doing things you wouldn't want to try in a real aircraft, they do however not feel like a real aircraft (767, and 737 3/4/and 800 sims that I've flown) . You don't get that little feeling of sink as you cross the river off 07 in Syd or any other multitude of little things make up real flying. Sims have their place for sure and an increased role is probably a good thing. But to reduce actual flying to 10 hours or something is BAD.

How do you do a PFL in a sim? Computer terrain is just not good enough to be able to do things like this.

The other thing that never gets really replicated in a Sim is the Comms side. You have one instructor playing the role of ATC etc, you don't get all the radio traffic that makes up a flight.

[neville_nobody]

Noone on that show mention the pyschological aspect of leaving a simulator and then doing the same thing in a aeroplane for real, where you have in the back of your mind "if I screw this up we die".

The other problem with the MPL is who will hire these guys? For the system to work they have to have a job lined up before they start as part of their license training is on type. Which Australian airline's going to do that?

Noone mentioned cost yet either.

[bushy]

Is it true that these fellows will never go solo??

[Jose Cuervo]

SNAFU,

That point is a major one. With just one instructor replicating communications, only one transmission by the instructor can be made at any one time.

You cannot possibly re-create the real world where you are flying into a busy CTAF-R, receiving traffic from Centre, and having the cabin call you at the same time to tell you that a passenger has just had some sort of medical problem. All the time flying the aircraft, reading checklists, and talking to the other crew member.

This is my personal gripe with simulators, they just cannot load you up like in real-life. And so sims should be treated as a training aid to practise drills, aircraft handling, and standard operating procedures, NOT to teach pilots how to fly in an airline environment.

[tinpis]

My kids have got VID games and PS2,never been on the flight deck they can remember (too young)

I borrowed a SIM and let them have a go

They said THIS IS IT? :uhoh::\

Too boring.:sad:

[Lodown]

Paint the cockpit windows black, put two widescreen CRT's on the dash and the MPL will probably fly the plane better than the autopilot.

[Ramboflyer 1]

Real life experience aint worth a cracker in Australia already. You could have 20,000 jet hours and if you come back to Australia to work you have to be a junior F/O or S/o . There will be no shortage of guys if qualifications and experience is respected. 100s if not thousands of Aussies would return home if they could maintain their current rank. Bring on the AWA's.

[Sexual Chocolate]

Its like training a bunch of guys on a paintball field and then packing the little tikes up, sending them off to Iraq. I wouldn't want one of the little kiddies covering my arse.....

[Capt Fathom]

Link to 7.30 Report Video (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200709/r186582_695651.asx)

[Mail-man]

We all seem to be forgetting that this will cripple the GA industry.

If kiddies dont have to go bush, take sh!t from management and clean up vomit to end up in an airline job, then they wont. And what will be the future for remote communities, no mail, no rfds, no aeromed, no more aboriginal intervention.

What about the instructors, very few will be left to teach the pilots who want to fly "useless single engine aircraft" for pleasure or to actually get qualifications to fly command of a shiny jet one day.

Will there be enough "hardcores" to keep GA alive, because it already seems there arent enough pilots in the NT to fill the work now

[TINTIN25]

quote "Will there be enough "hardcores" to keep GA alive"

I think you will always find there are some that want nothing to do with the airlines & think GA is great but realistically if there is going to be any increase in pilots in GA it isn't going to come from a young 18 year old straight out of school.

I think the industry needs to look at older people say 25 and older who are starting in aviation as they are more likely to stay in GA having different life experiences they are certain to know life isn't all rosey in an airline!

[neville_nobody]

I think the industry needs to look at older people say 25 and older who are starting in aviation as they are more likely to stay in GA having different life experiences they are certain to know life isn't all rosey in an airline!

I would dispute that theory. Have seen numerous people go through GA very quickly by playing the age card. Letting it be known that they are only interested in GA as a result get quick progression and they are off to an airline or RFDS.

[bushy]

Real bush pilots will be doing those jobs, and doing them better.
The flood of city pilots only came because the flying schools persuaded far too many pilots to get CPL's and they could not find work in the city. But the flying schools killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
It's much the same as the tax concessions that resulted in lots of wealthy hobbyists setting up charter companies, and getting into something they knew nothing about and did not care about. They just wanted to dodge tax.
These things do not result in a stable industry.
It's like alcohol. It makes things look rosy for a while, but when the effect wears off the problems are still there.
And in the future (starting now) the goose will be taking many of the golden eggs to whoever has got a good simulator. It seems that will be big overseas based companies, and the airlines.

[BombsGone]

My two bobs worth.

What about Captaincy skills?

In Command Under Supervision has its place but is no substitute for In Command with no one covering your ass. It would appear the first time an MPL is actually in command will be on his first captain trip with 100+ pax on board. Only then will they find out what sort of captain he is without the check and trainers watching him.

Was a bit pissed that "former RAAF commander" was used to give someone credibility and give the impression that they were a RAAF pilot.

P.S. Insert Him/Her as required for equity reasons.

[Howard Hughes]

I would dispute that theory. Have seen numerous people go through GA very quickly by playing the age card. Letting it be known that they are only interested in GA as a result get quick progression and they are off to an airline or RFDS.
I agree totally, even the RFDS can't hold on to people like they used to, many over 45's are making their way from the RFDS to the airlines, the lure of a shiny jet, seems just too strong!:eek:

[cunninglinguist]

I think sims are great, who has'nt had the pucker factor on a LOFT or a PC ??
If you treat the sim like it does'nt really matter if you prang it, to quote a famous naval aviator " you guys are dangerous " :}

Having said that, and as has been already mentioned numerous times, the sim cant teach you good old seat of the pants, scare the crap out of yourself, I'll never do that again decision making.

I'll bet you the mentioned times of 190-200 hours will not be sim time, who the hell is going to pay for that at around a grand an hour :confused:
More like 50, tops. ( betcha it will be little more than we already do for a type rating, cheap cheap )

Lets not forget what this is all about, an attempt by the airlines to circumvent the pilot shortage that is developing, by creating their own pilots ( Frankenpilot ?? ), rather than paying a decent wage and attracting, or keeping the ones they've already got.:suspect:
With good old CASA in their back pocket...........pathetic :mad:

[QFinsider]

You cannot buy experience.

[Jet_A_Knight]

People keep saying that you don't need experience to fly an airliner.

Especially in Europe, I'm told.

So where's the problem??:rolleyes:

[Spaz Modic]

If ever there was a Krock O'Krap in the business, this is one.
The enthusiasm with which the candidates will embrace this is going to be irrepressible. Fewer checks, learning to fly a sim by rote, palsy walsy instructors.
When this comes to pass, I want to see the licence and medical certificates of the pilots (hopefully there will be one), when I get on board the machine. If one has a MPL, I'm off - and so is the family.:ugh: Hard to comprehend these so called authorities are going for this - clearly the el cheepo airlines we now have - Dick gets closer to his goal - affordable safety.:yuk:

[No Idea Either]

I cant wear this MPL thing either. As a skipper, the MPL is working under your licence. Would you let them TO or LD in anything other than CAVOK L/V. If not, how are they to gain experience, to learn basic stick and rudder, navigation and weather skills and of course decision making. Oh thats right........GA.

[Wiley]

Let's not forget what this is all about, an attempt by the airlines to circumvent the pilot shortage that is developing, by creating their own pilots Agree 100% - and guess what? Without a shadow of a doubt, they're going to pull it off, for sadly, when push comes to shove, if the choice is airliners parked against the boundary fence due lack of crews and training apes to man (should that be 'ape'?) the front seats, guess which way the decision will swing?

... and I agree with the comment that the sim time these trainees will get be an absolute minimum, and will almost certainly reduce to an even lesser number of hours when the airlines scream about the cost.

Gents, (and gentesses), we're a bit like old salt mariners in the dying days of sail, bemoaning the fact that the new breed of 'sailors' operating the new-fabgled coal-fired steamers don't have the necessary skills to operate a 'real' ship.

I can assure that certainly the way the bean counters see us.

[FlexibleResponse]

If this simulator training is thought to be the all-singing, all-dancing answer to pilot training for airline pilots, surely it would be equally applicable to other areas as well?

How about car and motorcycle training to be done on simulators with automatic licence grant on successful completion of the course? I am sure you don't need experience in actually driving a real car, truck or motorcycle to be safely set free on the streets of Australia?

This could also be extended to heavy truck and construction machinery licences. Think how much money and time could be saved.

How about simulator training for becoming a Member of Parliament? You could watch say 100 hours of televised House of Representatives with a sprinkle of senate proceedings for the upgrade licence. That could be enhanced with slagging off at interactive simulated opposition members. When you had finished the structured course you would be admissible to the highest echelons of Government.

At least you would probably have had more training than some of the d!ckheads that are authorising this ridiculous and dangerous "science-experiment" called the MPL licence.

[STUBBIES]

Hi chaps.
I'm wondering if everyone who is making money out of this MPL has told travelers that a 10 hour(on a/c) pilot will be landing if the Capt. becomes incapasitated.It must be the first "let's remove redundancy"scenario I've ever heard of.
:ok: Yeah that will solve the shortage.
I wonder who proposed this idea,must have been an Airline boss.

[Lord Flashhart]

I cringed when i heard Cameron say "competency based training" as though that was a good thing. That is another topic in itself:yuk:

Simulators are too one dimensional in that they replicate Weather and visuals and Systems failures, but the Don't PROVIDE EXPERIENCE with the REAL world. EG, Language problems, Radio problems, the thousands of little swiss cheese events that one encounters and mitigates every day on the line.

For my money the Multi crew licence is an accident waiting to happen by placing far too much emphasis on the Captain to manage it all.:eek:

[KRUSTY 34]

Lord Flashhart,

To the point and true!

As Wiley said, this process is being driven by bean counters in an effort to avoid parking aircraft. Well I'm afraid to date they haven't been particularily sucessful.

DJ are still cancelling up to 30 flights a week due lack of crew. REX cancelled 8 flights last Sunday and 11 or so the week before. All due to lack of crew. This trend will not only continue but will become appreciably worse as the major players move ahead with their planned expansions. Hell, even REX has expansion ambitions, and they can't even crew their existing flights!

So in true bean-counter tradition, lets put in a scheme that will see the market flooded with low-time and ultimately lower valued pilots. We can pay them less, as they will have limited options, and we can retain them by locking them into contracts for the privilege. They'll generally be young and niave, so we can manipulate them pretty much the way we want.

I have said this before. The profession of pilot has been in decline in this country for years, simply because the effort and financial outlay nowhere near matches the evential outcome. You will not reverse this crisis overnight.

The wholesale increase in wages and conditions across the industry will not solve the problem overnight either. It is fundamental however to the recovery and sustainability of all aspects of Australian aviation into the future. If you pay them, they will come.

In the current climate, unless perhaps we are talking about Qantas, Cadetships and/or the MPL will fail because of the above reasons. Some people are gullible, but I doubt they are out there in the numbers required?

[cunninglinguist]

For the skippers out there, remember that you are still responsible for the flight operation, your job is going to be a lot harder under this system as you will become a baby sitter/instructor for the new guys who come on line.

Spot on the money 'trails, as any expat Skipper who has done some flying in Europe or Asia will attest to.
Of course the difference being you can get some decent money O/S to compensate slightly.

Maybe we could all get together :rolleyes: and go to the companies and tell them we want Trg Capt pay whenever we fly with these MPLs................that'd work :{
( or we could just say to management " thats not how we did it in Ansett " )