Ryanair - The initial outlay

[Kempus]

Hi,

I've recently been offered a place on the said airline's type rating scheme. Basically i know you pay for everything but what exactly is everything and the cost, ie uniform, id, parking, insurance etc....

Maybe someone who has just joined within the last year can shed some light with costs?

Cheers,

Kempus

[AndyCirl]

Congrats on your offer. I hope it works out.

AFAIK you pay for EVERYTHING

TR, accommodation, food, transport, flights, uniform, ID, parking permit back in Dublin,

[YYZ]

23k GBP did it with no problem for me, did not stop enjoying myself either, so you could do it for less..

YYZ

[Jelly Doughnut]

Don't forget £2.00 for the swimming pool when you do your induction SEP.
Oh and 40p for the car park! :O This from a buddy who just joined.

[JW411]

Well, if £2.40 is going to stop you, don't do it!

[The Real Slim Shady]

Flights are free on the FR network if you jumpseat in uniform. Deatils on crewdock or from your BC.

[YYZ]

We all already know you pay for everything, therefore £2.40 should not really be an issue? As said, 23k will see you through it, and possibly leave you enough to go to the pool twice:}

YYZ

[FlyingRat]

28,000 Euro for TR. Plus accom in Amsterdam. I paid 450 Euro (per month) for a nice three bed flat about twenty mins from CAE. Plus food etc.

Once you start they will send you anywhere for your line training. Positioning flights are free hotels and food are not. Expect to allow a grand or so for accom & food whilst line training. You'll earn about £600 net pm.

Once line trained Brookfield contract most likely Dub or Stn but some guys do get other bases that they ask for. 55 Euro per rostered block hour.

I've got no real complaints (wait for the abuse). I'd still be instructing for £10 ph on PA-28's if I'd listened to half the stuff I read on here....

[Telstar]

Don't forget the leaving fees when you want to leave too guys. All new entry F/Os are emplyed by Brookfield, a so called Pilots agency. You also have to pay a leaving fee/Exit fee of 2500 I am led to belive when you hand in your notice.

[Farty Flaps]

Having read the above no wonder the industry is on its arse. You might as well be in a whorehouse. Oh wait a minute you already are but with a twist you pay to f23k yourselves with a fancy little ego jet to take you're mind of it.:E And a nasty little pikey laughing all the way to the bank.:ok:

[dragon501]

Nuff Said.... DONT F@CKING PAY TO FLY...... They should pay YOU.

[Crusty Ol Cap'n]

These are the guys who are causing the deplorable drop in terms and conditions! I suspect that if they were any good the company would pay them to fly and not the other way around. Prostitution is illegal in many countries! :=

[ICING AOA]

Prostitution is illegal in many countries!


That's why they send you to Amsterdam for your type rating :}

[FlyingRat]

Listen guys I totally agree the T&Cs are rubbish but I'd paid £60k+ at the pointfor my licence and I was earning sod all to instruct (which cost me £6200 to get the rating). Nobody else had even given me an interview..

What do you do? I was at the point of going back to my old job and forgetting it.

Re paying to leave. Yes if you leave in the first 12 months.

[FlyingRat]

Ah yes, sorry I forgot because I had a previous job and I had to pay for my own type rating that makes me a complete idiot who can't think for himself....

[FMSData]

"The new 21st century Cadet is someone who has been a truck driver, plumber, sparky etc and then one day decide they want to be a pilot."

Well I fit into the first part of this comment, but I have always wanted to be an airline pilot and have used hard earned money to pay for training; working two jobs to save money for most of my teen years. The ones not complaining are actually to new boys who have always wanted to fly and are happy with the pay and love the flying.

I'm not having a go but I do think that some people on here need to have respect for us. I have respect for the experienced pilots on here, you guys were my heros when I was young! But it's sad that you actually seem be a moaning bunch. Hope I'm wrong..

No doubt I'll get a mouthful from someone in a minute

[YYZ]

Times have changed and it was long before I joined FR, yes it would be great if we could step back to days gone by, be nice if I could leave my front door unlocked too, but it's not going to happen.

I don't like the way the industry has turned but it's happened...

[sidtheesexist]

The proliferation of self-funded TRs is damaging pilots' Ts and Cs - anyone who cannot/will not accept that is myopic/delusional to be brutally honest - and to be fair it's a brutal dog eat dog profession, particularly at the outset, when you are doing literally everything in your power to get that all important first commercial job. I know, I was in that position - happily I didn't pay for a TR - I couldn't have afforded one anyway.
It's easy once you are on the inside of the tent p*****g out (rather than the reverse - L B Johnson) to become sanctimonious, judgemental and scornful of the lengths to which some people will go to ' follow the dream ' !!
On the other hand, wannabees who fail to accept that their actions are contributing directly to the erosion of pilots' Ts & Cs are even more annoying.

[Dan Winterland]

Ryanair will charge you for everything.

http://newsbiscuit.com/article/ryanair-to-charge-for-emotional-baggage-200

Don't work for the feckers!

[Superpilot]

Don't paying for type ratings. You're f*cking up the industry, ya da ya da ya da.....Who's to blame for this mess???

It's you foolish fully fledged pilots yourself and not the cadets!

Think about it, the cadet, being as uninitiated as a space bound rat is destined to get abused along the way to him achieving his/her dream. You smart arsed Captains and Senior FO's clap-trap on about how cadets should'nt be paying for this and that but you seldom realise only your actions and threats can do anything about it. Since YOU are the on-line workforce, the unions work for YOU.

Let me give you an example of how this abuse is controlled within the railway industry. There's no shortage of people wanting to train as train drivers either. It costs well over £30k to train an intercity high speed train driver, but you don't see firms offering train type ratings and line training joy rides with the promise of some kind job offer. Why? because the industry is regulated and the unions, upon learning about any such notion, would cripple this country.

Home come BALPA and it's members havn't got the same balls? :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[cheesycol]

Cracking point of view superpilot.

Balpa need to be tackling this issue. I was lucky, having not paid for a TR, but I know many who have and many who will. They want to fly, have the licence and the ability, yet the only way that so many of them can do it is by shelling out another wodge.

Many don't have the ability, but money talks.

As airlines realise more and more what a great cost-cutting exercise this is, then we will watch our Ts&Cs go down the swanney.

It is Balpa, and it's members, that should be screaming from the rooftops about this. It has implications on so many areas, safety (ability?), fatigue, Ts & Cs even perhaps CRM.

Selection should be done on merit, not money. Think about where Ts&Cs might be in 15 years because of it.

[Kempus]

Well i wasn't really hoping for a lets slag FR and all those that pay for type rating debate. I'm just trying to get that first job which has been offered by FR.

Now,

Type Rating : £23,000ish
Accom: £2000
Disclosure: £60
ID: £100
Uniform: £300
Insurance: £150
SEP: £2.40
IAA license: £200

These are what i think are the extra's! If wrong can anyone correct me!

Cheers,

Kempus

[Vampy]

I'm sorry, but speaqking as a mere ATCO, I can't understand what the problem is with people paying for their own flying training. How many airlines now provide full cadet sponsorship? And of those that do, how many places do they offer each year? And I wonder how many people apply for positions when they're advertised?

The pilots complaining on here about people 'prostituting' themselves must be living in a molly coddled dreamworld! I think it takes balls to take that step by putting yourself thousands upon thousands of pounds in debt to chase a dream. I know if I'd done the same thing, I'd take pretty much any job that was offered to me at the end of it!:ugh::ugh::ugh::mad::mad::mad:

[Denti]

It's not so much about the initial training to get your license (CPL with ATPL credit), that of course is up to the individual if he wants to take the chance.

It is more about paying for your type rating after the company has allready decided that they want you, they just dont want to pay for the training you need to work for them.

Translated in the ATC world everyone had to pay for the initial training, thats his personal thing, but now they require you to pay for your on the job training as well.

[SOTV]

Let me give you an example of how this abuse is controlled within the railway industry. There's no shortage of people wanting to train as train drivers either. It costs well over £30k to train an intercity high speed train driver, but you don't see firms offering train type ratings and line training joy rides with the promise of some kind job offer. Why? because the industry is regulated and the unions, upon learning about any such notion, would cripple this country.


As an instructor for train drivers the rot has started to creep in. Potential trainees are paying for the psychometric tests that every driver is required to pass, before they apply to companies. It is nowhere near the amount for a TR but the companies lap it up by claiming it shows commitment. It probably saves them a few hundred quid for each applicant who reaches that stage.

The true costs of training a driver ab initio are closer to £100k when salary and all costs are factored in.

Me, I'll stick with the PPL and enjoy it.

:ok:

[The Otter's Pocket]

00severn

So where did you get the money from to train? For your living expenses or for the 2 pints that put you into an arrogant tirade?

Was it mummy and daddy?
Did they pay?

Or were you lucky enough to get a sponsorship?
Because daddy knows somebody?

Well listern here pal these people who were plumbers and electricians, would be alot better off not having to pay for their course and study part time to eventually get to that position.

How do I know? I have been there. Before that I was an Army Officer, am I lowering the standards? Think again.

There may be a lowering of Ts and Cs, however it is not the fault of the new entry pilots (and I would suggest cadet is saved for the sponsored and intergrated students). These chaps are taking the nonsense from people like Ryanair, working hard and gaining the experience. Then moving on with the natural progression and into better paid jobs. Is that difficult to understand?

They are taking the breaks when they find them.

[bonernow]

OOsevern,

You sanctimonious b@stard. What's wrong with a plumber or an electrician becoming an airline pilot? I'd much rather have a colleague alongside me who knows a thing or two about sacrifice and hard work than a jumped up tw@t like you.

As for the paying for the TR issue. Well, quite simply, it's those who are within the industry, and have been for some time, who are to blame for the degradation of T's and C's. If experienced airline pilots with a good few years service had taken a stand against this issue when it first reared it's ugly head, young cadets coming through the system would not be getting raped today. And T's and C's wouldn't be falling down the pan either.

Take a good long hard look in the mirror pal because that's where the rot started. Or are you so far up your own @rse that you just fail to see it.

Becoming an airline pilot these days, for someone who wasn't born into money, is probably the most difficult career choice to make. Aside from the aquisition of the CPL/IR there is also the huge expense attached to it and the subsequent risk. Guys nowadays are spending upwards of 100K to get trained so the additional outlay of 23K for a type rating to GUARANTEE that first job is now an expenditure that has to be seriously considered.

[SOTV]

Before that I was an Army Officer, am I lowering the standards?

As an ex Royal Navy NCO. I would say yes.

:}:}

[lsh]

As an ex Royal Air Force NCO, I would say "yes" too!
(Only joking, the British Army are the best in the world)
lsh

[The Otter's Pocket]

Bonernow
Thanks for backing me up there.
How can people not even in the industry be blamed for lowering Ts and Cs.
The more that people realise that Ryanair is run as a business then the sooner they will use it for what it is...a stepping stone.

Ish and SOTV
Stand still the centre rank...

[Superpilot]

But guys, the argument is that if Ryanair do it, soon others will follow suit (if it isn't happening already). Ryanair are a force to be reckoned with, they will set trends. Soon you will be calling every other airline in Europe a stepping stone!

[sidtheesexist]

Guys - you make a valid point wrt BALPA not doing enough to oppose self-sponsored TRs - I'm with you all the way on that..........

However, to suggest that in accepting the TRAINING COST of the TR that the EMPLOYER should be paying for in the first place, you are not contributing to the problem is, well, forgive me, ludicrous!!! Flak suit donned..

Apologies for thread creep - will make try to make no further posts on this thread.

[FlyingTom]

The ones who did the most damage to T&C's were those that retired at 55yrs with fat pension and took a DEC position elsewhere. This diluted the conditions of everyone below them. I don't notice anyone suggesting they should just stay at home for the sake of the industry.

Age legislation might have changed all that now. Perhaps the demand will improve things for those wanting to get a foot on the bottom rung.

[dragon501]

Flyin' Tom.....

You have lost the plot matey.. Or just started flying.. Or probably even both... These retirees who sticj around for a bit are NOT part of the problem..

People who pay for their rating AND take a crap salary are....

[Dan Winterland]

When you analyse the Low Cost model, you realise that the costs of the tickets aren't necessarily lower (unelss you get one of the first few discounted tickets on that flight), it's the overheads which are lower. As pilots we are overheads. The company's profits increase as their overheads reduce, but RYR have taken it one step further. Making money out of their employees as well as their passengers! Leo Hairy Camel, sorry - Michael O'Leary has had it good for the last few years since 9/11. He has been employing regualrly while others haven't and his profts have soared - partly due to getting people to pay him to employ them.

However, things are changing. There are a lot more jobs around and pilots are a dwindling resource. In some parts of the world the shortages are having big effects. My (and dragon 501's) company had 2000 Cvs on file two years ago. Now they can't even get people to turn up to the interviews! If RYR keep their policy of getting people to pay, then more and more the company will be a stepping stone - with considerably shorter steps.

Michael O'Leary has done more to harm our profession than anyone in this industry. The tide is turning, let's hope the damage isn't pernament.

[45989]

DW you got it in one! As for Flying Rat I think the moniker says all that needs to be said

[5150]

Another quote from 00seven on a different thread:

Long Haul wide body international flying has always been prestigious and has a high status level. Short haul narrow body flying......well it's no big deal really.

None of the arguments you present above will ever change this obvious perception, because the advent of the low cost industry has tarnished the image/status of the short haul pilot to a level consistent with public transport bus, train and even truck drivers.

Of course, some low cost pilots have themselves to blame because they project an awful image just by the way they wear (or in some cases), dont wear their uniform. We've all seen these guys on the ramps.

It does not inspire much confidence or respect from our customers, but even worse, it devalues the profession of a short haul pilot, hence the low salaries and poor conditions.

Do we have an icon that makes the wa**er sign?

[captjns]

(Posted Yesterday 17:56) Michael O'Leary has done more to harm our profession than anyone in this industry. The tide is turning, let's hope the damage isn't pernament.

Before MOL came along with the pay to play scheme, there was and still is Tom Cooper from Gulfstream Airlines a Continental Regional. Students from Europe flocked to his school with a bunch of Euros to train from the Cessnas up to the Beech 1900s.

Then Henry George from Simcenter of MIA came along. His program which cost $33,000 gave 250 hour pilot the opportunity to acquire a Flight Engineer Turbo-jet certificate. The individual would sit at the F/E's panel on the B-727 for six months. Then the individual would return to the training center to upgrade to the right seat and fly 200 hours as a first.

Lets not forget the Comair Academy either... as they are a part of the pay to play scheme too.

[leced4u]

hello guys, i would like to know more about NetJets inside...i have had a look on their website, and everything looks so nice their, is it real ?

thanks

[sidtheesexist]

There's a very informative thread on Ryanair Cadet contracts/Ts & Cs on the 2nd of the 2 wannabee threads - sobering stuff indeed and I am v thankful that I didn't go down that particular route................ :(

[The Real Slim Shady]

these pilots will simply do whatever FR wants of them. Carry defects, go with min fuel, cut corners to make schedule, and even misrepresent the actual departure times to make them look good because they are too scared to face the music.

Let's see - Carry Defects - the oldest jet is just coming up to maybe 5 yrs of age and will be gone shortly, replaced by another brand new shiny 800. Biggest defect I've seen was an airstair that didn't work on the normal system and we carried that for maybe 2 days until the new part arrived. But then we have a book - airlines call it an MEL - which allows us, and all the other airlines, to carry certain defects for certain periods of time.

Go with min fuel - since when has that been a crime? If the PLOG requires us to 9136kgs and the weather is good, no notams to affect timely arrival etc what's your problem? The arrival fuel is usually at least a tonne more than minimum anyway as they PLOG burns are very pessimistic.

Misrepresent the actual departure time - what do you file as departure time? The time the doors closed ? The time you pushed back ? The time the aircraft first moves under it's own power ? Is it the time the aircraft and crew are ready - what happens if you have 3 or 4 fail to join pax and have to offload bags? Different airlines have different policies but at FR we don't push, start and taxi to remote holding burning unnecessary fuel and being so non environmentally friendly as other LoCo carriers do simply to massage their times.

Go back to your Flt Sim world where everything is rosy.

[MrHorgy]

Leroy,

Why do you think your suitcase is reinforced? Of course it's going to get bashed around - not that I condone it being deliberately done, but if people expect to get their suitcase back in as new condition after a few flights they are very nieve, or very stupid.

I hate to jump to their defense, but did you not realise it was baggage handlers unloading, and not Ryanair staff? I lost count of the amount of time I sat in the cabin as crew watching bags being chucked out of the plane willy nilly - people asked me why my airline allowed that to happen, the fact is its difficult to stop it. You can't lug a 20kg bag around a small hold without it getting knocked, or you pulling your back.

*back on topic*

I went to the Ryanair Open Day last month and they were very upfront about the fact you paid for most things. That's how they cut down their overheads. The degradation in general T&C's is not all because of Ryanair, it is as Superpilot states the responsibility of existing pilots and unions. New contracts are brought in, but because "we" aren't on them it doesn't affect us and they are allowed to be introduced for new hires. IALPA have the right idea with the recruitment freeze at Aer Lingus though, so maybe times are 'a changing.

Horgy

[sidtheesexist]

Sorry Mr Horgy - see my previous posts - it isn't JUST the fault of existing pilots/unions - wannabees agreeing to these scandalous terms are equally culpable!! To suggest otherwise is b******s :ugh:

And I would suggest that you too Diamond Dog, need a reality check :rolleyes:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Rather than bitching about "who's fault it was". Why don't both experienced pilots and the cadets work together to try and fix it.

[MrHorgy]

sid,

Sorry I didn't mean to point the finger of blame as just one group - as with the swiss cheese model it take a few mistakes to create a situation, so no doubt we ALL have a part to play. People having too much money doesn't help, the easy-credit crisis we're going through, all contributes, I just think there should be more of a "Bob Crow" type approach to T&C's :E

Horgy

[sidtheesexist]

Mr Horgy - your gracious apology gladly accepted. Joint responsibility - exactly the point I have been endeavouring to make :ok:

Say again Slowly - in order to address/fix the 'problem' of SFTRs, a starting point is a willingness on the part of the various groups to accept responsibility (a trait more and more unfashionable in today's society which is so obsessed with the rights of the indidvidual)for the part they may be playing/have played in creating said problem. I fear that many in 'both' camps want to simply blame it on the other lot...........in reality, I believe it is the fault of all of us. For the record, I have already written to BALPA expressing my concerns - I'll have to do so again. I've tried to make my points courteously - if I've failed, apologies to all offended parties.

[fudpucker]

So, to get to the point where you fly for the likes of Ryanair you have to pay, what?.....About £100k, which you have to 'repay' yourself/whoever lent you the money before you start to show any sort of monetary profit. Lucky I'm at the end of my career not the beginning of it, I've actually made some money. Incidentally, as one who sees CV's there is a never-ending supply of 200 hour wannabees desperate to pay for a type rating (on almost anything) to get a job. There is a shortage of experienced, suitable for promotion pilots. I hate to say it but newbees are cutting their own throats. What the answer is I don't know, but when the music stops (and it will) there will be a lot of people very deeply in debt.

[Superpilot]

Guys, as a mere wannabe (albeit of 8 years now ;)) ofcourse I'm no mastermind on the subject but what I can clearly see is that the onus is upon you pilots to realise that what is happening at the lower end of the food chain WILL ineveditebly lead to the lowering of your terms and conditions (if it isn't happening already).

Fine, if youre Ts & Cs aren't affected now then you have to be willing to say "I don't give a sh*t!" to the following (which I believe a lot of you do):

Somebody with identical experience to yourself, doing an identical job, albeit in 10 years time earning the same or less (in real terms) than what you are earning now.

You frequently fight for pay, roster stability and pension amongst other things. Well protecting those at the bottom of the line by forcing your airline to pay for all training should be another. If you don't protect this baby the rot will creep right up and bite you in the ass and the next 3-5 years is all that you have to fix this problem.

I would love to fight for this cause, but need a job first! :ok:

[JW411]

If I were to go back 20 years or so, the lack of progress at the bottom of the ladder was blamed to a large extent on experienced pilots who had already retired with a very nice pension at age 55 and then agreeing to work for peanuts for another airline just to top up their pensions. This, of course, meant that everyone else had to work for peanuts and so the T & Cs went into decline.

I believe it is still going on. In fact, I do believe that FR have several ex-BA pilots flying with them for example.

[FlyingTom]

I agree JW :)

Come on dragon501, is JW411 too green for you or are you still keen to blame the little guy?

[dragon501]

In a market these days were there is a far larger demand than 'back then' there is no NEED to pay for a rating or training etc..

I do NOT agree that these retirees are by any means to blame for the lower salaries or payin4trainin'. You said it yourself, they work at FH (as skippers, not having paid a penny to MOL) or you'll find in JAL/ANA/SQ/KAL contracts maybe which are wayyyyyyyy off for the wannabee and not that badly paid if I may say so.

Just my point of view.

TA TA

[JW411]

Well actually the way it was perceived was this; cheap, retired and qualified 55 year-old captain joins as a DEC. The senior first officer, who was expecting to be next in line for command, doesn't get his command. Pilot who was hoping to get hired at the bottom of the ladder doesn't get hired because senior FO is still in the right seat.

Worse still, cheap retired captain is prepared to work for peanuts for he already has a good pension. Therefore there will be a reduction in T&Cs for everyone else as long as there is a ready supply of trained pilots who are prepared to work for peanuts.

Certainly Virgin had a lot of that going on in the early days. Also European springs to mind and even Biman Bangladesh had at least one.

[00seven]

You hit the nail on its head Fud.......We have cadets paying 100k to BUY a job in a market where there is a shortage of Pilots. Can you imagine what would be happening if we were in a pilot surplus position!

[FlyingTom]

Sorry for the thread creep here, I just don't want newbies being blamed for destroying the industry when they are just doing their best in the situation they are presented with.

The scale of post 55 retiree v no hour newbie is (or was) probably 1:10. However it was the moral justification that irked me for the mindset of the retiree is the same as the newbie, ie. "I'll accept what the industry offers" rather than "I should sacrifice myself for the greater good".

The difference is that the retiree has had their chance, the newbie really has no choice. No disrespect to retiree's as their wealth of experience is priceless and they bring a lot to expanding airlines, without them there would probably be no training, no newbies.

The rest of us are in a newbie/retiree sandwich. I don't see a brighter future now that 55ers are drying up. The industry will just reorganise a la JAL, Qantas, forming lite versions paying half the wage. They will be crewed by newbies and sandwich'ies wanting a command, thus shrinking the mother airline. This is the real threat under our noses while we're focused on newbie bashing. BA EU/US comes to mind.

[FlyingTom]

And another thing.

OOseven. Imagine what would happen to T&C's if the newbies didn't have to pay 100K. If it was only 10K the market would be flooded. I'm almost greatful to the flying schools for their robbery. Airlines must be looking at sponsorship schemes soon me thinks.

[Farty Flaps]

OOseven has it right.
The industry needs pilots. They should be paying. Dont give me all that nonsense about debt. If you didnt have the money you should have worked until you did. I am a self improver, 15000 hrs, three tp ratings, three jet ratings (in the last six years) and have not paid for one. Why because i worked until I had enough money to pay for my licence. I worked again when jobs were thin in 2000. I have spent the same on my licences as you but only when I was able to. You got yourselves into debt to become pilots, your call. You now are ruining the industry by doing anything to get the jet rating.MOL is giggling away in his pikey office while all you silly people fund his company.

In 1999 I tried to stop people throwing money at the mcc course. Didnt happen. Desperation again. I didnt have to pay for , WHY BECAUSE I FOUGHT MY CORNER WITH THE CAA and if I had failed gone back abroad. The exemption rules for mcc are now in place thanks to pressure from people like me in 1999.What was the excuse then for those throwing money at it. Short sighted fools desperate to get in a jet.
Debt is only half the issue here. Ego plays a huge [art.

Bottom line if your not rich dont spend it.
There is a crew shortage .Fecking stop it you sad people.

[The Otter's Pocket]

Dear Mr Lardy Dar I've worked all my life to get where I want to be and haven't borrowed anything...
Well bully for you.
People take on debt, its called perceived risk.
They risk the debt now to get a better job later.
If they were going into debt now to get a flash car or a sofa then I would have some sympathy with your arguement.
However people going into debt and taking a risk has to be admired.

At least they probably have a life, rather than being some boring twit with a Gordon Brown complex.

[FlyingTom]

From the wife of FlyingTom - some of these posts are pathetically ignorant and show a spectacular lack of empathy.

When my husband decided to follow his dream to become a pilot we both appreciated that it would involve risk, debt and some very lean years. He was lucky enough to be sponsored through the initial training but unlucky enough to have the prospect of a job taken away at the end of the training when Buzz were bought by Ryanair and all sponsorship deals were cancelled. This left him with three options; pay for a TR and have a greatly enhanced chance of getting a job (particularly as he was 30), carry on as a flying instructor earning minimum wage and hope that the industry came to him or give up altogether.

I remember the dilemma and while I agree with the principle of not paying for a TR, real life is nothing like the world portrayed by some of the earlier posts on this thread. When people have worked so hard to reach the final hurdle, who are you people to shatter their dreams with your nasty and spiteful bile spat from the comfort of your full-time pilot jobs?

You are right - people shouldn't have to pay for their training, but the sad fact is that the industry has changed (as have many other industries, my own included). Instead of this unseemly bitching, all pilots and wannabe's should be working together to improve T&C's - remember Management read these pages and they must be very happy to see such a divided work-force.

When people ask for help on this forum they don't deserve such abuse - if you established pilots don't have anything supportive to say then stay silent.

To the chap who started this post - I hope you take the job offer. Get your first job and good luck for your career. The TR decision was a tough call for us (it's a lot of money) and my husband did pay for his in the end and is now happily flying for BA - earning enough to pay off the debts!

I appreciate that partners don't normally post on this site but I remember how important sites like this were when my husband was starting out in 2001when we both used to read posts to try to workout what was happening in the industry as he made such important decisions. Positive and honest comments are called for - not the kind of negative nonsense from people who should know better.

[The Otter's Pocket]

Looking at several of the posters (Farty Flaps excluded) they have absolutely no idea of what it takes to be a pilot - a real pilot. Not a thing on their profile, no life experience to speak of and an arrogant ability to slag other off, when their parents have paid for them all the way though their training.

Whats the problem? You fathers mortgage was too big to allow them to remortgage enough for your own TR?

Well done Mrs Tom for having the guts of your husband, I am grateful enough to say my wife has stood by me, as an FI and no TR.

Children get back to your microsoft stimulator.

[dartagnan]

hi,
this industry has turned crazy. MCC, type rating and now you must pay for line training and even your (500)first hours.

all this world is messed up due to this crazy capitalism; a boss makes 500 millions/year and a pilot makes less than 2000$/month (one of the airbus managers left with a bonus of 50 millions euro, and they gave only 8 euro of bonus to their workers) and it is worse every year, we become poorer and poorer, and cost of life goes up.

So what do we need to stop that? a war?
stop Europe, stop to buy the crap from china?
in my point of view, the only people responsible of this fiasco are our politicians.

[shaun ryder]

Did someone upset Nigels Mrs?

[SE210]

Pilots are prostitutes..............................

Short term thinking destroys the business for future pilots.

Hopefully, the global shortage will send the most unserious employers out of business.

I find a resemblance to doping in cycling. Somebody starts using it - they get a head start, and then the rest starts using it. In a short time the entire sport/business is totally ruined.

[Flying Farmer]

Well I for one will not be called a prostitute, there are some of us out there with morals, just! :O
I attended the interview and sim assessment recently(at no cost to me), currently flying the Dash with close to 2000 hours. I was offered a position with Ryanair.
Have a guess at what was offered. 2000 hours and an ATPL soon and they offered a Cadet position!!!!
As much as I would like to move on I turned them down. To everyone else that might even consider paying for a job please dont, its starting to lower our terms and conditions higher up the ladder :ugh:

[Farty Flaps]

Otters pocket,
Cant stand gordon brown. Have been excluded from the mainstream trying to get a job but didnt resolve it by subscribing to the current trends, then in their infancy.

Mrs flying tom,
Good for Nigel.One more lamb to the slaughter. I have more than earned the right in this industry to be bilious if I choose. Nigel is happy now you say...well thats alright then isnt it. Now he can concentrate on complaining to Balpa about loosing 50% bids ruining his time off and whether the report is from the carpark or not, or maybe the length of sbys when he lives 1.31 hrs from base. OOo lets move LHR closer. Or maybe he could campaign to stop people geting screwed? Is that going to happen?..No. Thats what we are trying to do.
Your Nigel is now one of the established pilots sitting comfortably. Lets see how long before he becomes bilious over an agenda within BA far less crucial than the destruction of the industry...and so it goes.:ugh:

Right time to go and try and train another marginal with a purchased tr jet rating and no affinity for the job.:sad:

[The Real Slim Shady]

Flying Farmer, you were assessed by an experienced ( very experienced ) 737 TRE; if you were offered a cadet position perhaps his opinion of your demonstrated ability in the jet ( not turboprop) is reflected in the offer.

[fudpucker]

Guys, there is no pilot shortage...really. Maybe a couple of flights get messed around because temporarily crew are in the wrong place or because there isn't a standby crew on that particular occasion, but by and large the airlines continue to operate...flights go more or less on schedule, CV's keep flooding in to HR departments with applicants offering to pay for type ratings, work for nothing etc etc.
The mob I work for has recently started a policy of not paying people until they get one line.... I think that's a disgrace but they get away with it, so do other companies. We won't look at non type- rated people, we don't need to because there is a line of people volunteering to pay themselves.
I don't expect newbies/wannabees to 'sacrifice' their aspirations by not paying, nor do I expect ex BA retirees to suddenly decide to 'act for the common good'. The situation is as it is, it's not going to change except for the worse, but after it's changed for the worse it will probably get better again....this has been the cycle for the last 50/60 years so I don't see why things should change.
So, should you pay for a type rating...no question really, because the probability is that you're going to have to. I think Flying Farmer's experience best summed up the state of the industry. On paper at least he/she would be a candidate for progression to jets with a good chance of an early command if the opportunity arose. The reality? Offered a cadet position. The conclusion? Any talk of a pilot shortage is wishful thinking. You may look at your roster and disruption to flights and think there is a shortage of crews, the bean counters however look at the bottom line and don't see the need to 'buy' more crews. The bean counters run the airlines, so in the real world they're right and you're wrong (until/unless events prove otherwise). Us pilots have been waiting for 'the golden age' (decent salaries/pensions for a long time...in real terms over the last 30-odd years my pay and conditions have at best remained pretty static and may actually have got slightly worse.

[Flying Farmer]

The Real Slim

Sorry I can't agree with you, have just had a formal command recommendation from my company and Ryanair is not the only offer on the table.:confused:

I went because I was interested in what was on offer, there was talk I might get a DEP position(that needed slightly more multi crew hours than I have)!! now that might have suited me but sorry a Cadet position is taking the piss :*

[CamelhAir]

Flying Farmer, the reality is that pilot recruitment is profit centre for ryr. Ignore Slim Shadys rubbish about not making the grade, he clearly isn't paying much attention if he thinks making the grade is a prime requisite for ryr FO's. The only requirement is the ability to stump up money and then accept below legal minimum wage pay. The maximum amount that can screwed out of pilots is at cadet level, so thats what your offered. What we then saw in action is the direct result of newbies prostituting themselves: they could offer you $hit because if you didn't taking it, some other muppet will.

SE210, that is the most succinct and accurate post on the subject I've seen in a long time.

Farty Flaps, bilious perhaps, but thorougly deserved.

Of course the established pilots have a part to play in improving T&C's, but the continual refusal of the buy-a-jobs to accept any responsibility is rather galling.
As F Flaps pointed out, nobody forces you into debt to go flying. The fact you have done so is no good excuse to cut your own throat thereafter.
As someone else said, that taking that debt is about calculated risk, well clearly the calculations failed if you're then forced to spend more to buy a job.
Anyway, it's your own futures you're wrecking, I just don't appreciate you wrecking everyone elses too.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Camel Hair obviously doesn't hold his colleagues, the F/O's in particularly high regard it seems !

Flying Farmer - I wasn't being nasty with my comments: Ryanair's policy on type rating and availibility of positions changes on a regular basis, and on the day you did your assesment you may have been compared to guys with a shed load more experience and / or ability, hence the offer. Also you will, in the current market, be offered the least expensive position; if you don't take it someone else will.

[The Otter's Pocket]

The Real Slim Shady
I must admit you owe me a new laptop for that comment, I spat a very nice Chateauneuf du Pape all over the screen, (its now running very slowly), one of the best comments I have seen in a long time.

Lets face it Chaps and Chapesses, there is no pilot shortage, the old boys are going to do what they need to to supplement their incomes (the ones with no initiative I mean - the ones who haven't learn't the joys of running a business) and the cadets will do what they have to, to get their feet on the first rung of the ladder.

Its called capitalism. Its not a black magic trick, its basic dog eat dog.
If a cadet wants and can pay for his TR then good luck to them, if not things are a bit harder but they should succeed the old fashioned way.
It is far better than the old nepostic way of "daddy knows the chief pilot". Now that stinks and yes it still goes on.

All a TR really does is make the cadets life a little bit easier.

However when they get to interview and they are a tool, then this will shine through.

If I had the money, would I?
Probably, but what type?
At the moment only a C172.
Euro-Millions didn't come up. Bug-ger

[Flying Farmer]

No offence taken The Real Slim, I said thanks but no thanks, gimme a call when a direct entry slot opens up, I really don't need to fly a jet that much :ok:

[CamelhAir]

Camel Hair obviously doesn't hold his colleagues, the F/O's in particularly high regard it seems !

Some are excellent, some are not. However, the fact remains the selection process is heavily influenced by the ability to pay. And also the willingness to pay. It is not heavily influenced by such traditional methods used by other airlines, such as establishing competencey through various different tests and checks. More cheques than checks in Ryanair.

[MorningGlory]

Very true, well said camel!

[JW411]

I have trained hundreds of pilots over the years in everything from gliders to DC-10s.

One of my protégés wrote to me recently to tell me that he had moved on from Ryanair to go longhaul.

What he said was very interesting. He told me that he had left Ryanair, not because of hassle or any other reason, but that he wanted to move on to longhaul and that he had got fed up with Tony Blair's government.

He told me that his time with Ryanair had been good. He had been well trained and that the attitude of the trainers in the sim and the aeroplane had been to educate and not to make it like the seven labours of Hercules.

The job was interesting, the airfields were interesting and his rosters were very stable.

The aircraft were mostly brand new (occasionally they might be 5 years old) and he also got paid on time.

His final comment was that he had enjoyed the experience and that it had been "EXACTLY AS IT SAYS ON THE TIN".

I have no experience of working for Ryanair but it seems to me that there are a whole bunch of people out there who are living in Walter Mitty land and hoping to re-invent BOAC.

Didn't you read what it said on the side of the tin before you bought it?

If it really is so bl**dy awful, why in God's name don't you move on like my friend did?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Camel Hair said

Some are excellent, some are not. However, the fact remains the selection process is heavily influenced by the ability to pay. And also the willingness to pay.

The selection process is NOT influenced by the ability to pay. Having been selected as an appropriate candidate for employment the individual - a la Flying Farmer - may reject the offer because they do not like the T & Cs.

Selection and acceptance of an offer are different eggs.

[Piltdown Man]

And don't forget the warm feeling that you can have every night when you know that CAE will give your employer €5,000 cash-back for you doing your course with them. It will be a similar feeling that your soon to be cabin crew colleagues attending training courses in Spain have when they attend courses at a college owned by...

PM

[CamelhAir]

The selection process is NOT influenced by the ability to pay.

Superfluous use of the word NOT.
An individual comes to ryr, refuses to pay for TR, then he/she is not selected.
A system based on merit would select people based on their experience, skills and other various competence based criteria. The best would then be offered the job.
The ryr process however self-selects those who also have the ability to pay. As those most suitable for the job are not always the same as those who can pay for it, it stands to reason that the first, and most important, hurdle to jump is the ability to pay. Everything else follows from this.
You can split hairs all you like about the difference between selection and acceptance, but that's just semantics and it all amounts to exact same thing, i.e. who sits in the cockpit.
The bottom line is that if you are not willing to buy a TR, you will not get the job, regardless of how good you are. Therefore it is plainly rubbish to say that willingness to pay is not the prime criterion in the ryr selection process. Everything else is dependent on it.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Post assessment candidates are selected as suitable from those who attended.

They are then made an offer.

They may either accept or reject the offer.

Fairly standard procedure; if the offer is not compelling - don't accept. Selection and acceptance are different.

[CamelhAir]

Selection and acceptance are different.

Wrong, you will not be selected unless you indicate your willingness to pay.
Anyway, it's all semantics again Mr Shady. No dosh, no job, it's very simple. You can be Chuck Yeager, God and Michael O'Leary all rolled into one, but if you ain't chequing out you ain't checking in.
It is therefore axiomatic that the willingness to pay is the overriding quality required to get the job. Without the cash, nothing else matters.

[Cloud Bunny]

Hate to butt in on the argument here but everyone that goes for an interview with Ryanair know that (for a Cadet position) they are going to have to stump up the cash. At no point during the interview process does the TRE or whoever conducting the HR bit ask to see your bank balance or whether or not you are willing to pay for the Rating. It is taken as read that you are, otherwise you would not be at the selection process.
Therefore it seems to me that the selection process for Ryanair is based purely on ability and suitability for the job.
I'm off now, I'll leave you two to get back at it :}

[MorningGlory]

Although it was almost 5 years ago, I was specifically asked at my Ryr interview if I had the money to pay for the TR.

I said the Bank were willing to lend, and that seemed to tick the last box post sim check.

So therefore although they had already decided they wanted me.. Had I said no I don't have the cash.. well there would have been no offer. Maybe that process has changed now, I don't know.

My job offer in my case anyway, was therefore based on my ability to pay.

[Farty Flaps]

Do RYR use their own tri/e for the training. I could sure use some guidance from a TRI who has been a pilot for 4yrs or a tre who has been a capt for less than two yrs, and a pilot for four.

I think if i was fessing up the dosh I would like some experience teaching me not a trained ape repeating what he was told.:8

[CamelhAir]

Cloud Bunny,
By actually showing up, you are declaring your willingness to part with money. Obviously many suitable candidates don't show up as they are unwilling/unable to pay.
By the very fact that only those willing to pay show up, self selection has already taken place. To suggest that anything other willingness to pay is the prime selection factor is thus nonsense. A selection is being made the moment you make the application. Thereafter, all other selection decisions are made on the basis that you will be prepared to cough up.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Camel Hair takes the not insubstantial salary and whines more than a CFM56 on a 22K derate.
If you are so unhappy put your money where your big mouth is and push off to the greener grass elsewhere; otherwise shut the :mad: up whining about Ryanair.
No rational argument is ever going to change your misguided viewpoint.

[CamelhAir]

Ouch Mr S, touched a nerve have I?!
No rational argument is ever going to change your misguided viewpoint.
Not sure where I'm going wrong. It's so very simple, if you are not willing to pay up, you won't get the job. Doesn't matter how good you are, you're not paying, you're not in. In this scenario, it's hard to see how willingness pay is not the primary factor.
not insubstantial salary
You must be talking about the lowest jet salary in Western Europe. Not insubstantial compared to the dole. Pretty damn poor when compared to any other airline.
otherwise shut the :mad: up whining about Ryanair.
Truth hurts eh? Dissemination of the facts is not whining dear boy.

[Fireboy]

I agree with slim, at no point in the interview was I asked about funds for the TR. Ryanair are turning people down if they don't make the grade in the sim/interview even if they have the funds to pay.

This just goes to show you can't just arrive at the interveiw with with 20k in your sky rocket(pocket) and expect a place on the TR course, you have to make the grade.:ugh:

[CamelhAir]

Fireboy,
If you made the grade but didn't have the money to pay, would you have gotten the job?
Q.E.D.

[dartagnan]

of course, 20k is not enough, you need to pass their selections. they have so many of 200h pilot ready to pay.
they can even ask 30k if the decide to and wanabes will pay if they decide to pay.
this is not only at ryanair, but in many other airlines the same "ripoff".this industry stinks! I just hope to find a good company for myself.
God bless you!

[Fireboy]

It's a very big problem, but it seems to be the way the industry is going, even Bmi regional make you pay for the TR on the emb135/145 £2000 up front then £163pm total cost £12000. I know with FR you need to pay the toal up front but even with Bmi regional you still pay, Jet 2 is another, I think.

Camel, you need to make the grade to get offered a place on the FR TR, it would be a waste of time for the applicant and FR to have someone sitting on the flight deck who couldn't cope with the pressure but had 20k to spend and at the end of line training FR say thanks but no thanks, whats the point in that.

[Mercenary Pilot]

they have so many of 200h pilot ready to pay.Yep they certainly do, not everyone gets in just because they have the cash as FR can still pick and choose. However, if you dont have the funds then you wont be getting the job ether. There are pilots out there who are willing to pay for hours on type and work for free so of course MOL is going to take full advantage.

[MrHorgy]

Forgive me for trying to get a thread on track again, but can anyone give me some indication of how much they earnt in their first year with Ryanair? Just salary, preferably before and after tax, before expenses and loan payments etc..

Horgy

[BongleBear]

the guys a jerk. i can understand him being pissed of with ryr due to the treatment of us pilots and cabin crew, but i think the pay is pretty good compared to other airlines -camelhair calls ryr "the lowest jet salary in Western Europe". thats rubbish.

the pay for the first 6-9 months is rubbish however. you wont get much during your training, along with zero sector pay (which now makes up around 60% of my take home pay). yes it's a struggle up till a time when you've signed a contract and on full sector pay.

but if you're at a point where you're trying to get into an airline for your first job, then i'd assume you've had at least 6 months of struggle without a job anyway. i now take home over 3k a month. thats about 2500 more than when i was doing temping work, about 2000 more than when i was a flight instructor and around 1500 more than some of my mates who are flying for airline who pay less. YES- camelhair, believe it or not there are some salaries in western europe less than ryr, even on jets.

my advice to those pilots whose heads are stuck in the 80's and 90's where pilots where celebrities and on huge salaries is to be pissed off in your own time and quit moaning about it, bringing down others and attempting to put them off ever thinking about starting a career in aviation.

if you stay out of the politics and treat ryanair as they fully expect to be treated (i.e. stay there for a few years, gain command, have a couple more years on the left then leave) then they are a great airline to join. who else takes on cadets with almost zero hours, puts them in brand new 737-800s, pays them well (ok, after the first 9months) and gives them the chance to be captains after 3 years.

the initial payment of a type rating is peanuts. look at how much youve paid already and go for it. its definitely worth it. i know i havent helped steer this thread away from the argument it was turning into! sorry about that Mr Horgy! just pm me and ill answer any questions you've got as best i can.

b.bear

[RAT 5]

Can anyone enlighten us on what the score is if you have stumped up 'all this dosh', finish the sim but bomb out on the base training. Will RYR offer some more training to get you through, or will they show you the door with no type rating to show for 'all that dosh'?

[bonernow]

RAT 5,

To answer your question, I know of two guys who struggled on their base check. They were put in the sim at EMA for a few more hours (At FR's expense) and then went back up in the real thing to do their circuits again. They both passed and are now flying the line.

Mr Horgy,

I made £35k net (From Cadet to FO) in my one and only year at Ryanair as a PAYE employee. I was fortunate in that I was through my line training in six weeks and then straight onto a Ryanair contract and half sector pay for the first six months. (I say fortunate because some guys are a little unlucky with the continuity of their line training and it may take a bit longer)..

During that six month period of half sector pay, you will get a lot of flying done believe me. This is because you're fifty percent cheaper to have flying than a FO who is out of that six month period.

[stansdead]

BongleBear
Your post is what this whole thread is about. Terms and Conditions !!!
You say you take home £3000 a month. Well, good for you.
How much of that do you spend on your own food and water at work? How much of that is your car park pass? How much of that is your uniform and dry cleaning? How much of that is for transport to and from sims? How much of that is for accommodation at the sim?
A not insignificant sum
On top of that, how much do FR pay into your pension? How much do FR contribute to your death in service benefits? How much do FR contribute to loss of licence insurance? How much do FR contribute to PHI income insurance?
Absolutely nothing
You get my drift, the job is cr@p..... and it's because muppets similar to you think that you are well rewarded. You aren't. You are badly paid and work hard for that privilege.
Contrast your position to a legacy carrier, such as Virgin or BA (where all pilots should be aiming their terms and conditions). A first year FO at Virgin takes home £3400 a month (for no more than 760 hours a year) PLUS allowances downroute, gets all the above benefits (and more) and a 15% company contribution to a pension, on ALL pay including flight pay, except overtime.
That's not bragging. It's where terms and conditions should be. If not better.
Wake up and smell the coffee (that you had to provide yourself of course).

[MrHorgy]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I appreciate the time people are taking to message me and answer my question.

Stansdead, although I agree with you in theory, I notice that Virgin and BA aren't taking 200 hour wanabees on, and throwing benefits at them. BA take Oxford bods, but have you looked at the cadet salary scales? It's worse than Ryanair in some cases!

People also say instructing is better - I don't see pension, salary, loss of license insurance, (insert benefit) provided there either, yet thats a better option?

I've personally taken a long hard look at Ryanair. Where else can you get a job fresh out of school flying a jet doing 900 hours a year on an interesting and varied route network. Sure the pay isn't great, but it's going to be better than sitting on arse moaning on Pprune. And after all, I can go to BA when I have my 500 hours anyway, which will be roughly 6 months of flying at RYR. Unless (heaven forbid) I actually enjoy working for RYR? Who'd have thought it, I am getting a nice sprinkling of PM's from people who are actually pretty happy.

Horgy

[stansdead]

MrHorgy

But it is not only 200 hour pilots who pay for type ratings with FR is it?

Everybody seems to. If people just said no for ONE month, FR would change their tune. QUICKLY.

[BongleBear]

How can you compare ryanair to virgin?! yes the t's & c's are better with virgin, and the pay may even be better. but it's chalk and cheese. mr horgy is asking for comments on a low houred pilot joining his/hers first airline. and if you look back at my post you'll see that im talking about being at ryanair for a few years, gaining work and life experience, then moving on to one of the airlines youve named. for an answer on those people who have thousands of hours experience and still choose to join ryanair- you'd have to ask them. however id expect them to explain that they know theyre getting treated poorly, they are home every night, have a fixed roster and know when they'll be home, and have great staff travel benefits- especially if they live away from their base. for those who have families these points are extremely important. believe it or not some people are prepared to sacrifice payment to cover travel, uniform and dry cleaning for the extra time they get to spend with their family. how would a new dad find it with a random roster flying long haul?

so why do people choose to pay to join ryanair? it just suits some people.

[sausagefingers]

Stansdead
I work for ryanair and a good friend of mine works for Virgin and I do earn more than him. £3000 pounds a month is bulls++t i took home £4450 last month.. How much did you earn as a F/O.
Pay for a hotel twice a year really does not break the bank.
Taking healthy food to work is maybe better than eating the Sh+t you might get served full of fat.
Pension I have my own.. Plus enough net pay to afford 5 houses
How many do you have. Do you really think your pension is worth that much
Love sausage :D

[dire straits]

Well said sausagefinger, Im with RYR now, and enjoy it! Have paid for my type myself, home every night, brand spanking new airplanes that are xtremely well maintained.
I don't want longhaul, don't want to be away from my family for days in a row, and honestly I have eaten enough infested crewfood in my life to manage without for the rest of it!!!!

Careerwise, I bet cadets that stay on with RYR will make more money than anyone in a so called lecay-airline will make over their 40year career. Upgrade to captain at age 25, put away £15k in a pension fund a year for 15 years plus the company contribution(£5K), let that money swell till you retire and have a good laugh at your friends that decided to "wait it out" in order to not pay for a rating. They got a job with BA at 28, with luck captains at 42 at the lowest payscale, lowest on the bidding list. They will do London-Manchester in the weekends for the next two years.

Depending on how you look on it RYR may not be so bad, it sure is a lot of airlines out there where you are worse off!!!!

Question at the end here: Is there really a need to tell people they are stupid just because they have invested in their future?

[Silent-But-Deadly]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the people that have contributed positively to this discussion.
I'm fresh out of OAT, with an interview with Ryanair this week - so am keen to hear as much about the company as possible.
I'm married, with a 3 year old daughter and another due in April - so share the sentiment previously mentioned about not wanting long haul, not wanting to be away from family for days at a time.

I'd be interested to hear from the guys who do have things to say about Ryanair that they don't want to air in open forum.

Many thanks

[Diamond_Dog]

Hey guys,

I passed selection recently and have been offered a place on a 'Ryanair Training Course'. I have received my 'fixed-term training contract' as a .pdf via email. The contract clearly outlines my responsibilities and liabilities.

Section 3 Highlights the 'term'. It states that the contract will terminate 6 months from completion of base check. For this period I will be on E15,000 pa gross. (=£749 pm net).

Some guys have said that Line Training can be completed as early as 6 weeks from the base check. The presentation at the open day informed us that after successful completion of line training, cadets are offered the standard contracts (most likely Brookfield). I have heard some FR pilots say this as well.

Can any peeps who have completed line training recently confirm this?
If so was your contract also titled as a 'fixed-term training contract' ?

Its just bugging me a little that I may finish my line training after say 2 months, I'm then released to fly the line fully without a training captain but I am retained on the low take home for another 4 months. (That would be a bit of a p*ss take).

Can any peeps who have recently started on standard Brookfield contracts also offer any advice on how they are managing themselves as sole traders/limited companies, offering any general pointers on how this works in relation to the agency?

Please pm if you wish.

Many thanks.. :ok:

[CV Donator]

As we all know, you cannot guarantee the take home figure will be the same month on month in FR. Before I left the company I sat on my ass for two months surviving on my basic pay of £1700 which was tough, is this still going on? As far as the benefits go with legacy airlines all well and good but there is no way I will be relying on the super annuation to get me through in later life, hopefully make the money on housing allowance etc. This I suppose is the benefit of ryr, quick command invest wisely then get out of the company as soon as possible.

[eagerbeaver1]

me too sausage - I calculated my work related expenses and it was only a weeks flying.

Dry cleaning? Do some companies pay for your clothes to be cleaned?

I get a delicious/appropriate meal every day better than 'orrible crew food. I am home every night, I get absolutely no hassle what-so-ever from crewing etc and I get between £4k and £4.5k a month net.

I paid for my rating many years ago when it was a lot cheaper but look where I am now - not sitting on the bench.

Anybody would be a fool to turn down an opportunity on principle.

[stansdead]

sausagefingers

I took home £3750 last month after my pension contribution, for an 85 hour month. Plus allowances downroute. On top of that nearly £1000 went into my Virgin pension.

I have more than one property too. That's not the discussion topic here you know. Who, as a pilot ,doesn't own more than their primary residence now? It's nothing special, so get over it. House prices can go down too..... I am acutely aware of that currently.

As a new dad I quite enjoy my 16 average DAYS OFF per month thanks on my "random" roster".

I am not trying to turn this into a mine is bigger than yours argument..... I merely was alluding to the fact that people like you think you are better off than you are. You could earn so much more than you do if you all stood up against O'leary.

I am glad you earned £4500 last month. Please tell everyone how much you will earn in January or February when the sector pay cheques dry up? About half that maybe?

Chalk and Cheese maybe, but why not accept that you should be aiming for better terms and conditions? Surely that has to be the aim doesn't it?

[top jock]

At the end of the day its up to you what you are happy with. I spent over 12 years with them and i was very glad to get out. Alot of people who post here like myself remember the good old days when it was a nice place to work before MOL went nuts and turned it into what it is today. People have asked what it is like to work there now and we have posted why we think it is not a nice place to work. I know guys who are living on £600 a month which is a disgrace. New fancy airplanes or not, people are leaving very quickly and that is one of the reasons that routes are being cut and 7 aircraft grounded for the winter. I really enjoy my new company and i am very glad i gained great experience and met some great folk but it is not an airline that i would look at long term. You are only as good to them for as long as it suites them. If you refuse to do anything for them no matter how many times you have gone out of you way to help them , they will be after you. When you hand in your notice they will make you give them 3 months notices and they will not fly you because as i was told by a base captain that they will leave you on standby so you dont get any sector pay. Now if thats the way they treat people you can see why alot of us here have no time for them. If anything happens to you on line and you make a mistake you are on your own. It has been proved many time overs. I hope most of you who join get what you want out of them and move on but remember when asked what we think we will tell why its a nasty company because of what we have seen over many years and not just what we have read here.

Good luck

[CamelhAir]

Pay no attention to camelhair. The guys a jerk

:D

So let me get this right, as a long time FR pilot, I tell it like it is and this, to some wannabe who doesn't like what I'm saying, make me a jerk!

Stansdead is the only person talking any sense on this thread. It's the likes of all these wannabes, not even in FR, who think they are being well rewarded, that is screwing this profession.
All this rubbish, I earn this at FR vs that elsewhere. Yeah, but you don't pay for your rating elsewhere and you have a pension, sick pay, loss of licence etc etc etc. In your astonishing arrogance, do you all think you'll never get sick, never risk loosing your licence and never retire??
All told, the FR package is the lowest of a jet pilot in Western Europe. Sorry to rain on your parade boys. Anyway, you better get used to disappointment as it awaits you at every turn in ryanair.

Chalk and Cheese maybe, but why not accept that you should be aiming for better terms and conditions? Surely that has to be the aim doesn't it?

Nail on the head. That said, it's not chalk and cheese either. Fr affects all. If you're perpared to work for $hit in fr, all anyone else needs do is pitch slightly above that, $hit + 1 if you like. You're cutting your own throats and everyone elses.

Sits back to wait for Bongles "expert and experienced" riposte.

[thebeast]

I am glad you earned £4500 last month. Please tell everyone how much you will earn in January or February when the sector pay cheques dry up? About half that maybe?

As a RYR UK FO my take home is fairly consistant at around £2800 but as said above you get nothing else and pay for everything. In my view its not to bad and compares with alot of UK airlines but lags miles behind the likes of Easy when all the extras are added.

[Finals19]

Nail on the head. That said, it's not chalk and cheese either. Fr affects all. If you're perpared to work for $hit in fr, all anyone else needs do is pitch slightly above that, $hit + 1 if you like. You're cutting your own throats and everyone elses.

Oh so true CamelHair..! The lowest common denominator drives the market..

I've seen this in other countries too... hate to say it but this happened a while ago across the pond with certain sectors of the industry - guys prepared to pay to work, one operator with crap t&c's - suddenly presto! all the other operators know they can also start to dilute t&c's, save money where they never previously could and we all bend over...

So now you have a whole new market developing - TRTO's cutting back a slice to the airline for the SSTR, airlines saving big time and all of us getting royally b*ggered...so much for unity!

[MrHorgy]

Forgive me for once more trying to get this thread on track - perhaps a mod could step in and tidy up some of the scrum that seems to be overflowing.

I, like Diamond_Dog, am also interested in what sort of tax/Ltd company arrangements people at Brookfield/RYR have. if you don't want to trawl through this, then please feel free to PM me.

Horgy

[MorningGlory]

Stansdead check your pm's thanks :ok:

[Diamond_Dog]

Hey guys,

I passed selection recently and have been offered a place on a 'Ryanair Training Course'. I have received my 'fixed-term training contract' as a .pdf via email. The contract clearly outlines my responsibilities and liabilities.

Section 3 Highlights the 'term'. It states that the contract will terminate 6 months from completion of base check. For this period I will be on E15,000 pa gross. (=£749 pm net).

Some guys have said that Line Training can be completed as early as 6 weeks from the base check. The presentation at the open day informed us that after successful completion of line training, cadets are offered the standard contracts (most likely Brookfield). I have heard some FR pilots say this as well.

Can any peeps who have completed line training recently confirm this?
If so was your contract also titled as a 'fixed-term training contract' ?

Its just bugging me a little that I may finish my line training after say 2 months, I'm then released to fly the line fully without a training captain but I am retained on the low take home for another 4 months. (That would be a bit of a p*ss take).

Can any peeps who have recently started on standard Brookfield contracts also offer any advice on how they are managing themselves as sole traders/limited companies, offering any general pointers on how this works in relation to the agency?

Please pm if you wish.

Many thanks.. :ok:

Sorry to post this again. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't in invisible ink the first time round. Pressman, thanks for focusing on what I was trying to say.. Can anyone else shed light specifically on what I was asking.

Cheers..

[BongleBear]

camelhair you are a jerk, get the point! people like myself are trying to say that it's a great place to start, then move on. answer me this: what other airlines take on low houred pilots who can then gain 2500 jet hours in a few years? if it's so bad and other airlines are so much better, then why are you there?!

[Finals19]

I think the point is more that places like RYR are changing the dynamic of the pilot employment market. If other companies follow suit, apart from a dilution of t&c's from what they used to be (which has been a progressive but direct result of low houred guys desperate for work submitting to such conditions) its going to be a case of "those who can afford to fly will" Ultimately the market is being commanded by your ability to spend, not your ability to fly...QED...

The airline cashes in, and those guys who have worked hard through their training, but neither want / have the ability to finance the SSTR, are left out in the cold. That's a very sad state of affairs, because ultimately we have all lost out due to the phenomenon of SSTR! The SSTR guy is 25K down compared to the way things used to be, and the guy who can't foot the bill for the SSTR is sitting on his arse or instructing on 172's....

Thumbs down all around mate....:(

[stansdead]

it is worth remembering that no matter what FR or Brookfield tell you, that if you are working in the UK and living in the UK, or the "centre of your life" is deemed to be in the UK, you WILL be eligible to pay UK income tax.

That's the end of the matter, there is no short cut to not paying tax in UK.

Elsewhere, who knows, but to try and eke more money out of FR by tax loopholes shows just how terrible things have got in our industry.:confused:

[JW411]

Such a carefully thought out and erudite reply; have you ever thought about a career in the Diplomatic Corps?

[20driver]

Finals the market has always being dominated by "those who can afford to fly will”. Apart from the military or ab intio cadet programs it has always being pay to fly. PPL, IR, CPL, ATPL, who paid for yours? SSTR is just an extension of what has being going on for years. At least with FR you have a job after spending the dosh. How much were you guaranteed when you started your ATPL ?

Hard to believe but at one time airlines hired pilots off the ramp and trained them from zero hours but that is no longer the case. If enough people stop turning up that will be the case again but until then Ryanair and everyone else will pay as little as they can to get the labor they need.

If the pilots in the UK and elsewhere want to change this stop blaming the people at the bottom with zero leverage and start doing something. The old model of captive customers getting stuffed to pay for what ever deal the monopolies made with their labor are long gone.

[EjetSetter]

[Finals the market has always being dominated by "those who can afford to fly will”. Apart from the military or ab intio cadet programs it has always being pay to fly. PPL, IR, CPL, ATPL, who paid for yours? SSTR is just an extension of what has being going on for years. At least with FR you have a job after spending the dosh. How much were you guaranteed when you started your ATPL ?


SSTR is not an extension, its an option. An option most people with SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome) have. Is it fair though that because of Ryanair the whole market has to change? NO!

I think a lot of the pilots are asking others to take a "look at the whole picture" and not just themselves. As a student I might go the CFI route just to improve hours, gain some experience and move foward with a career at a "major" or an airline that bonds you for a couple of years. Getting the hours under my belt.

However I do say another way to combat this is to get GA back. General Aviation is what is causing low hours and because of that you people over the pond are suffering. (Just a thought)

[bonernow]

This is an amazing thread creep. The guy only asked for advice in relation to the inital outlay he would have to fork out during his Type Rating.

As usual, whenever Ryanair is mentioned, the is a diversion, the genesis of which focuses upon the "scandal" of paying for additional training or working for Ryanair.

The guy has made his choice and decided for whatever reason, that he is going to pay for a type rating and commence his airline career with Ryanair. I for one wish him the best of luck despite my previously posted misgivings.

Perhaps some of the old timers out there, rather than shake their heads at us younger guys, care to cast their minds rear wards and recall the day when paying for a Type Rating was first introduced. And then hang their heads in shame for not taking the airlines on over the issue and saving this career for future generations.

But the old timers didn't, because "it didn't affect them". Selfish, self serving and very short sighted. It's not the "youth" of today who have created the problem of SSTR, it's the older wiser pilots who should have known better at least a decade ago.

[skyworks]

Bravo!!!!! :D:D:D:D

[Finals19]

Finals the market has always being dominated by "those who can afford to fly will”.

With the exception of the RAF, places like Hamble (back in the day many years ago) and (before 9/11) OAT, yes I agree. And this forms a fundamental part of my argument. Its costly enough to do the ATPL basic training, let alone the almost mandatory requirement for an SSTR....

How much were you guaranteed when you started your ATPL ?


Absolutely nothing, nada, zilch mate. I was told that I would have to go out, search out that first illusive job, and really sell myself to get it. That job might have been para dropping, banner towing, instructing or Air Taxi - it was called working your way up the ladder.

If the pilots in the UK and elsewhere want to change this stop blaming the people at the bottom with zero leverage and start doing something.

Err...23 grand is quite a lot of leverage in my opinion.

Hard to believe but at one time airlines hired pilots off the ramp and trained them from zero hours but that is no longer the case.

And why is that? Because one day, really not that long ago, some guy somewhere said "hey, I'll finance my own type if you hire me..." He dropped the ball on that day and its been rolling downhill ever since...

[Hirsutesme]

Well said bonernow. But it is not too late to change things.

[Ramsey]

Spot on Bonernow..

[The Real Slim Shady]

If the moaners want to check the thread on DHL in Iraq, perhaps they would realise just how cushy Ryanair is !

[Mercenary Pilot]

I'd still take DHL over FR any day. :p

[The Real Slim Shady]

Now why would I not be surprised at that taking your username into account :rolleyes:

[CaptainJim]

Ryanair base preference
Did any one out there get one of their 3 base preferences for FR?


?????????????????????

[CamelhAir]

If the moaners want to check the thread on DHL in Iraq, perhaps they would realise just how cushy Ryanair is !

So it's better than getting shot at in Iraq, must be cushy so :rolleyes:

[MrHorgy]

Well Camel if you don't like RYR, then feel free to go and get shot at. If you have nothing else to contribute, why do you continue to troll?

Horgy

[Say again s l o w l y]

That sort of attitude drives me nuts.

Why should someone leave a company if they aren't happy? Why not stay and try to make things better, rather than just bailing out at the first opportunity.

The standard Pprune call of "why don't you just leave" is purile, facile and totally devoid of any merit as an argument.

Some people care about the company and people they work with and want to make things better. How would leaving achieve that goal?

Please come up with something that moves the debate on rather than just resorting to name calling and other tactics that most adults left in the school yard.

[Diamond_Dog]

Why not try telling us about the "initial outlay" !?? Does anyone police this site anymore. It has gone majorly downhill in some sections.

[rubik101]

pressman, amongst others, is under the very mistaken impression that Brookfield contract pilots are not liable for tax. Believe me and the others who have posted here and elsewhere, you are liable for tax in the country where you derive the majority of your income, no matter what your nationality or domicile happens to be.
Brookfield, along with other contracting companies in the EU, have already been investigated and individuals who are on their books will be required to pay tax in the not too distant future. It is only a matter of time before ALL contractors in the EU will be paying the tax due to the Revenue at the appropriate rate. Not only that, unpaid tax on previous income up to seven years will also be collected. Individuals could also be liable to penalty payments decided by the Revenue, without recourse to appeal, if payments are not made on time.
Keep your head in the sand if you feel lucky, otherwise I would recommend talking to an accountant, soon.

[Silent-But-Deadly]

I was wondering if anyone had any experience on the Brookfields deal - is it a good option to use an umbrella company rather than going self employed? This is the way I did things when IT Contracting, and it made life so much easier.
Also, under Brookfields can you claim back expenses such as petrol, meals etc, and offset them against your tax?

Cheers

[MrHorgy]

S-B-D,

I'm under the impression with such arrangements any expensives you could prove were incurred due to that business would be claimable - items such as petrol, food at the airport, ID pass, parking, etc should all be tax deductable.

That's not tax advice incidentally - although i wonder why so many people keep silent about their own arrangements, i'd be very interested to hear what people have worked out.

Horgy

[MarkColeman]

This is an amazing thread creep. The guy only asked for advice in relation to the inital outlay he would have to fork out during his Type Rating.

As usual, whenever Ryanair is mentioned, the is a diversion, the genesis of which focuses upon the "scandal" of paying for additional training or working for Ryanair.

The guy has made his choice and decided for whatever reason, that he is going to pay for a type rating and commence his airline career with Ryanair. I for one wish him the best of luck despite my previously posted misgivings.

Perhaps some of the old timers out there, rather than shake their heads at us younger guys, care to cast their minds rear wards and recall the day when paying for a Type Rating was first introduced. And then hang their heads in shame for not taking the airlines on over the issue and saving this career for future generations.

But the old timers didn't, because "it didn't affect them". Selfish, self serving and very short sighted. It's not the "youth" of today who have created the problem of SSTR, it's the older wiser pilots who should have known better at least a decade ago.

Very well said, thats shut alot of people up.

I'm half way through my atpls and the REALITY of the situation is that ryanair looks to be the best option for me, self funded type rating and all. In this industry thats future is so dependant on the global economy, & the price of oil i feel like i need to get my foot in the door and start climbing the ladder ASAP. If things do go downhill a few years from now id rather be in a situation where i have 5000 jet hours instead of 2000 cessna hours.

For all those people ****ting on young guys like me for considering self funding a type rating, i say pull your head out of your ass and wake the **** up. What is the alternative? Perhaps you would prefer me to not get a job and go back to my 9-5 life 80 grand in debt?

I totally agree with the above quoted poster - where were all you moaners when self funded type ratings were introduced? Dont blame people like me for your t & c's being degraded, its simply the unfortunate reality of the modern low cost aviation industry.

[Carmoisine]

FlyingOfficerKite It's really, seriously, annoying when you spend the time to reply in detail, step by step and write a response to someone's question, that takes 15-20 minutes, only to find that they haven't even bothered to wait for a reply and cut and pasted the question on another thread.:ugh::{

[inner]

So, if i work with a brookfield contract and have a job offer with another company, i have a notice period of 3 months and paying a fee of 2500eur to brookfield?

Correct???

[paradropper]

only if you did your initial assesment through Brookfield

[Miss Flossy]

It's all well and good for experienced older pilots to sit on here pontificating and slagging off pilots who pay for type ratings, but when nobody else is recruiting pilots with low hours, what the hell else are people supposed to do?

My OH has paid for a type rating and I am FURIOUS that people are slagging him off for it. He is a fantastic, dedicated pilot who had to get through so much before he even got to an interview with Ryanair.

People know before the interview they will have to pay for a type rating with Ryanair, but it's not just the fact they have 23k burning a hole in their pocket that they get past the first interview stage, not just anyone can stroll in and get a job. Two other interviewees didn't get onto the type rating course although they had the money to pay for it.

People slag off Ryanair, but I can tell you that

1) He has a set roster so we know when he is working
2) He has a huge amount of hours already
3) He is flying a brand new 737 around Europe
4) If he hadn't have paid for his type rating he would still be sitting in an office wondering why he had gone through 2 years of college, Instrument ratings etc etc.

It's a step on the ladder, unfortunately, just being a good pilot or knowing the right people won't get you your first a job as a pilot anymore.

Sad but true.

So stop slagging off people who pay for type ratings, I can promise you that anyone who has had to fork out for one would much rather have spent the money on something else.

Nobody would pay out so much money just on a whim......they do it because they are passionate about flying and need a break.

[stansdead]

Miss Flossy

Don't get too emotional now please.