bmi Redundancies (2)

[fokker]

As one of the 109 who got b*tt-reamed last Tuesday, I would like to know why my original thread has been closed?

I concede a growing level of (heated) discussion but this is a crucial issue to many families and deserves an airing where everyone, not just those with access to private forums (fora) can make their opinion clear.

Who knows? maybe even SMB reads this one.

You haven't seen me, right? :mad:

[Capt PPRuNe]

When a thread reaches 100 posts or thereabout we close it because the longer a thread becomes the more load it puts on the server. Feel free as you have to reopen the discussion with a part II thread.

Anyone who posts a reply with little or no content such as a one liner should realise that they are only ensuring that a thread will close with less discussion so please think about your replies and are they absolutely necessary?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Threads containing >100 posts cause technical problems down in the PPRuNe engine room.

Nothing sinister.

Once we can afford a bigger Di-Lithium Crystal then it won't be a problem...

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Arse. Hiya Boss.

WWW

[fokker]

Thank you, sirs.

Keep going, boys and girls. Let's get the message through to them at Crinkly Bottom.(Perhaps that should be; 'WITH a Crinkly Bottom......)

Thanks to Danny and WWW et al for the chance.

Here's to thread 3!


You haven't seen me, right?

F. :cool:

[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: fokker ]

[skyscraper]

Latest news from Crinkley Bottom is that the whole of Operations and Crewing departments are to be made redundant then asked to re-apply for thier jobs but with a much lower head count. Nice eh?!!!

[RAFAT]

Has the aviation industry gone mad? Surely no one can say that this is all the fault of Sep 11th, it's blatantly just being used as an excuse now!!!

[FL310]

RAFAT...you have eventually made the point....even TV companies use the Sep 11 as an excuse now to sack 100s of people...also their rates are better than ever.

[packsonflite]

Roger that, Rafat! I've been saying that ever since Continental announced 12,000 layoffs on the 13th Sept!!!!

I just hope that John Q Public sees that this is all a load of b*****ks and starts buying tickets again real soon.

[MissChief]

On a more positive note, I hear 2 LHR engineers made redundant and then quickly re-instated...anyome know why?

Sad thing is that many of us need to use an online rumour net to learn about our own company...says lots for industrial relations, and doesn't bode well for future good-will between employee and employer. And this is the basis for a successful operation in the long run.

[moleslayer]

Not sure about there being two,but one certainly appealed on the basis that all of his 'approvals' had not been taken into account.Engineers are not made redundant on'juniority',but how useful they are to the company,and presumably cost is taken into account.Watch out you pilots-the seniority list days are numbered!

[fokker]

I won't bore you with the details (anyone in bni knows them only too well) but 'management' are now using the situation to try to scrap all the lifestyle-saving features of our laughable crewing 'system'; features that have been hard-won over many years. B*stards!

Most of these people couldn't manage their way out of a wet paper bag.

Good luck, all.

YHSMR? :mad:

[high & fast]

Management attempts to use the recent tradgic world events as an excuse for change should be met with a one word answer. NO .

[MaximumPete]

Words fail me!!

These proposals rule out any chance of a family or social life. How many kid's parties, sport's days, family reunions etc. etc. do you have to miss before you come home to an empty house and your wife with the outlaws.

I presume these amendments will be voted on by the pilots!!

MP

[Arkroyal]

What I find amazing is that the only person to have been publicly vilified for capitalising on the tragic 11th, is Jo Moore, a Government spin doctress, who was only doing her (questionably useful) job.

Now the so called 'Captains of industry' are employing the same tactics and getting away with it. Shame on them.

Getting briefly back to the ex bmir 7, I am saddened that those displaced by these cuckoos are not fighting harder to have this ruling justified. Back to bmir, say I!

[MaximumPete]

SP

Why do you take things so personally?

Just because Arkroyals views don't assimilate to your own there is no need to get the hump.

Go and get your nappy changed!!

[Sailor boy]

SP, the whole bmi/bmir debate will cause instant friction. The sad fact is that it could all have been avoided with a clear transfer system between the two entities, perhaps in both directions, instead of the confused muddle it is.

Dishing abuse does not help. Interestingly I found the Navy to have very similar qualities to BM, ie 500 ish excellent boys and girls doing a difficult job in spite of the management. There are some top people in BM and I am, saddened by the prospect of not working with them again. Remember the enemy is poor management not your team members, wherever they may have come from.

(edited for stupidity)

[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: Mike Rosewich ]

[Stellina]

Mike Rosewich ,wise words. :)

[Arkroyal]

EICAS and Stag Point,

I'm really quite amazed that you choose to take this personally. I share the crewroom with bmir guys and girls, and get on well with all. I hold no grudge against any of them, or indeed the 7.

Let me set my stall out once again. The current situation calls for scrupulous fairness. bmi wil be losing people who have worked for the group of companies for longer than some who will keep their jobs at bmir. If you think that is fair, then I understand your support for the 7. This rule should not be a one way street.

The double standard being applied by the hirers and firers is simply not on. I say again, nothing personal. I wish all pilots in the group the best.

To quote SP: If you can't say something nice don't say anything at all.

Mike, Pete, Stellina and other grown ups,thanks for the support for free speech.

[Stagnation Point]

Pete,Mike sorry to have made that immature post,but I'm affraid I saw red when 7 of my best mates are being picked on and called "Cuckoos" by someone who claims not to hold a grudge against them. It seems a strange thing for him to say. I also feel sorry that you find that the management are your enemy, perhaps it is just a poor selection of words but at a time like this shouldn't we be working with management rather than despite them.

To get back to the Transfer agreement, and to again answer your question, Pete. The TA was, as far as I am aware, negotiated between bmi,bmir and bmi pilots council. At that time nobody from bmi would have wanted to be seen dead in teh front seat of a bmir acft, you may recall that we flew SAABs in those days. You will also like to note the bmir pilots have never been represented in the negotiation of the TA, but then again everyone concerned considered that bmir were gaining something from joining bmi.

You will also note that in a previous I challenged you to take bmi to court if you were not satisfied with the treatment of individuals, that challenge still stands, but I guess, Arkroyal its easier to call 7 individuals Cuckoos on the internaet than to fight for the rights of your close colleagues.

Here's another challenge, is there anyone on this site that can confirm or deny that bmi Crew Council were involved or not involved with the negotiation of the TA. Someone on your CC must read this diatribe, speak up and put us all out of our misery and then we can get on with the important things in life like golf etc.

[FL310]

EICAS...there is no SN pie in Europe...if you count on that, you are lost...

[Bash]

This thread is like Groundhog Day. The bmir crew council were consulted throughout the setting up of the agreement and were instrumental in the old one being scrapped.I will explain once again that the pilots who left the company called bmi regional (formerly British Midland Commuter)and signed contracts with the company called bmi no longer have any connection with bmir. They have left and joined another company. The only difference between them and any other new join at bmi is that that they have been given a date of joining for employment purposes that is the same as their date of joining BMC. You can argue the morality and the emotional stuff as much as you like but the facts are the facts. No-one working for bmi has any legal claim to a job with bmir and vice versa. Those who transferred to bmi work for bmi. The Transfer agreement is not a mess. It was supposed to work this way. The only advantage that these people got by working for bmir before joining bmi was their date of joining. Fact. Now please, someone, put these guys out of their agony or this will go on for ever.

[Stellina]

Changing subject(leave those 7 alone!it wont change things, and stilll leave over 100 people in the streets)....
Any news about more senior crew taking the offer of early retirement or unpaid leave? :rolleyes: :confused: :eek:

[Arkroyal]

Bash,

Agreed, it is getting a bit like Groundhog Day, but some questions remain unanswered. You say:

‘The only advantage that these people got by working for bmir before joining bmi was their date of joining. Fact. Now please, someone, put these guys out of their agony or this will go on for ever.’

Quite. The crux of the matter is whether that was fair, and who agreed it. BALPA is its members, and I for one was not consulted. It seems that the two companies are being viewed as separate entities when it suits some folk, and as one big company to suit others. Their ‘agony’ is shared by 109 others, remember.

EICAS sees that and is aware that the whole affair is a ‘muddle’. (BTW, EICAS, the Navy is not a job for life. You join on a fixed term contract, and at its end you are out. Personally I was out in to the last recession and to the dole queue. With that in mind perhaps you’ll understand that I know how these guys feel, facing the prospect of unemployment).

Stag point,

I understand you ‘seeing red’ and perhaps the word ‘cuckoo’ was rather ill advised. I apologise for it’s use, but you must see that 7 of ‘my best mates’ are being disadvantaged to the benefit of 7 of yours. By the way, I am fighting for their rights, and my posts here are a part of that. I do wonder sometimes if it is worth it, as I have worked with some of those directly affected, and find their supine apathy hard to take.

Two logical arguments:

1 If bmi/bmir is one big company, and those who ‘transferred’ have their employment protected by ‘Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations (TUPE)’, then it must follow that those pilots facing redundancy with bmi who are senior by group joining date to pilots in bmir should also be protected.

2 If bmi and bmir are two separate companies, then the redundancies should be handled separately (as is happening). In this case the 7 should assume their position on the seniority list i.a.w. their date of joining bmi and go.


The present 'mix and match' of the two is simply unfair.

[MaximumPete]

Why can't we chuck all the joining dates in the same sack and start from there?

The one way flow flow from bmir to bmi of redundancy dates seems more than unfair to all concerned!

MP :confused:

[Stagnation Point]

Unfortunatly Pete your, or should I say the BALPA scoe clause stops any traffic from bmi to bmir. Although I did jear a rumour that the SCope CLause had been scraped.

Ark Royal

Good luck with the fight.

Go too run and get the kids from school.

[Bash]

Eventually Bill Murray just smack's the annoying bloke in the gob. I've tried to explain that this has got nothing to do with fair or right or morals. The seven do not work for bmir! If you want to challenge the terms of their employment with bmi then do it through the appropriate channel which I would think is BALPA. They're a trade union and should know about these things. Remember that the transferees are probably members and entitled to protection as much as any other member. If you're not a member or you don't want to do anything about it then stop whining.

[fokker]

Girls, PLEASE!

Can we just agree that from one end of the telescope, the case of the 'Donington Seven' is manifestly unfair and, from the other, is a bit of luck for them (although a problem that should probably have been spotted when it was created). Either way, it's a done deal and no amount of sniping is going to change it. (I speak as one who has been pushed seven places down the list and am out of a job as of Jan 23rd) Interestingly, I note that Linda L's up to date seniority list as of 04/10/01 made no mention of the seven..........ho, hum.

The crucial thing is to try to save at least some of the 109 (where-ever they originated) and stop SMB (B*stard!) from behaving like a Victorian mill owner. For God's sake let's stick together here.

Twenty point nine million quid? How did he get that? It certainly wasn't a leadership bonus. Still, probably buys a whole sh*tload of amyl nitrate!

F.


You haven't seen me, right?

:rolleyes:

[MaximumPete]

I'm waiting on the pension deal to decide whether or not to take Early Voluntary Retirement(ER) but not getting much help at the moment. Hope to have a decision by the end of this week and save at least one job.

Watch this space!

Nearly Retired MP ;)

[thewwIIace]

if BMI guys feel that strong by it all and really if it is ONE company then it should be ONE seniority list, threaten industrial action to scare the living daylights out of old fishy bishy

[wooof]

Guys,

This thread is starting to look like doing one's dirty washing in public. There is even the facility to wash everything in private (a lot less smelly) on the Midland forum! :eek:

[MaximumPete]

Wooof

Here,here!

The Midland forum must be about the quietest on this site.

MP :)

[fokker]

Quite frankly, I couldn't give a **** about doing our dirty washing in public; SMB has used all available media, including TV & radio to show himself in the best possible light, conveniently omitting to mention that he's a lying b@stard who cares not one jot or tittle for anyone but himself.

Without being melodramatic, I hope that there's just a chance that some of those same media keep a watch on this forum and may expose him for the charlatan he is, thereby giving us some leverage to do something about the current situation.

It may surprise non-bmi employees to know that, despite (obviously) having 20% too many pilots, the crewing dept. is still disturbing people at home, buying days off & calling folk from standby. Somebody (with a moustache, methinks) is not telling the truth here.

F.

You haven't seen me, right?


:mad:

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: fokker ]

[le loup garou]

fokker,
Although I know how you must be feeling at being the 109 it seems that you have a very exagerated hatred of the bmi management for someone who has not been in the company that long. With that amount of discontent with your management you must be grateful that they are releasing you to find a job elsewhere.
As far as your points about crewing, they will only buy days off the people who are willing to sell them. It is those people you should take your grievances up with, and I will be 100% with you. Until people stop selling days off the company will always think that they can run the schedule with LESS pilots.
As far as crewing still calling people from standby. Isn't that the idea!! Standby days however much you dont like them are not days off.
As much as you dislike the management these are the people that may just save your job if suitable routes can be found by Jan 23rd. :) :) ;) ;)

[fokker]

LLG,

How very patronising.

FYI, I don't 'hate' anyone. It's a silly word.

However:

Fact: When asked in another forum about a specific issue, D.Ops deliberately lied in response.

Fact: SMB has gone on record in the house magazine, the national press and on TV, portraying himself as working tirelessly to reduce compulsory job losses. He has done no such thing.

Fact: The 'management' are now using the idea that those not in the 109 should be grateful to have a job and are attempting to steal back agreements on terms & conditions hard-won over many years. This is behaviour unworthy of an industrial-revolution mill-owner.

Fact: There are two G's in 'exaggerated'

;)

F.

YHSMR?

[Arkroyal]

Bash,

Smack in gob taken gracefully. I'll leave the '7' subject alone. Thanks, fokker for summarising it all.

Just remember

Only two things fly at night:

Bats and t*ats

:confused:

[PaulDeGearup]

Fokker,

Hear, Hear.

I can absolutely verify that not only are certain individuals within bmi management somewhat economical with the truth ( I would just come out and say LIE but it is so emotive)but that they are incompetent.

Fortunately you do have some quite magnificent colleagues who will do their utmost to support you; look at the response from MP. The problem you have is one of time: if MP and any others seeking EVR don't get the information they need to make the decision, due to management incompetence, their assistance will be too late.

When the dust settles in a few months though, who will bmi get to fly their aircraft ? A lot of folks will have very long memories!

[Stagnation Point]

Guys

Good news is only round the corner. More than half of the bmir pilots on teh redundancy list have had their redundancy notices withdrawn. Since Sabena have gone under, and condolences to the 16000 Sabena workforce that are looking at a cold and bleak Xmas. bmi are staying on the EDI-BRU and have announced that they have applied to do BRU from MAN, BHX, and one other port I think.

Don't know what acft they will use, but I hear the are hell bent on laying up the 321's, are they that much more expensive to fly than the 320/734.

[le loup garou]

fokker,

Sorry about that I didn't mean to upset you. I was just trying to point out that the two crewing points you brought up were pretty irrelevant. One of them being about people selling days off (which really annoys me).

Point noted about my spelling although I can't promise it will not happen again.The majority of the stuff you have posted on these pages I have supported.

I hope that with new routes the bmi redundancies thread will vanish and we can all concentrate on fighting for the lifestyle issues.

On a slightly different note does anyone know whether the new routes will be operated by bmir aircraft.

[Ricky Hill]

Hello, everyone! Isn't this fun?

Fibbing? Moi?


:eek:

[Stellina]

Woof, we are all in the same boat.people in almost every airlines are experiencing similar things.knowingabout each other 's problem might help.Even just a little.
And then, what have you got to hide? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Capt Homesick]

Great news that EDI-BRU is being kept on, perhaps it could even grow from an Embraer route to a Fokker, or even a 737?
We can only speculate though, as today's TV news said that British European are going to operate it 3 times a day.
I think the other new BRU route we've applied for is from LBA, but I could be wrong there...
As we have cut GLA-MAN to only 3 rotations a day, perhaps we could find a way to fit at least 1 GLA-BRU in there?
Hopefully this is only the start, and all the 109, not to mention the 15 or so bmir pilots, will find themselves with a lot less time on their hands than they expected.

[airbrakes]

Seniority list dated 30 Apr 01 shows 7 new joiners at the end of Mar 01.

Seniority list dated 04 Oct 01 (see BM_Balpa webgroup under "Files") shows same 7 pilots' joining dates changed to much earlier dates.

Seems to me these joining dates were only considered when it came to making redundancies, then changed to suit. I thought that list was part of our AFS?

Adios Amigos. May see you in the dole queue.null

[wooof]

Stellina,

I've nothing to hide (well in aviation!), but this thread is going around in circles.

Don't get me wrong I fully understand some of the sentiment on this topic, but lets not forget that the seven should not be villified for something that is not of their making. Employment law will prevail.

Now one of our number has completely lost the plot and started making wild accusations (I'll let you guess who that is :eek: )
It's all got extremely whiffy.

[Set_max_Thrust]

A lot of talk of one single seniority list the point of which i assuem would be to allow BMI drivers to shoot across into an EMB145. Which of course will work very nicely for some of the 109. But.. how would mainline guys feel if some of the senior BMIR captains would then be eligible for a command on say an a321. Remember if you want a single seniority list it will become a 2 way street. Funny how a common seniority list wasnt a big issue when BMIR just flew saab340's.. funny that .. U cant have your cake and eat it..

Remember we may all wear the same uniform, but BMIR have a totally different salary and benefits structure.

[PaulDeGearup]

Wooof,

If you are refering to the statements I made regarding incompetence and economy with the truth, I and others, can assure you that they are neither wild nor accusations. I can back them up with hard evidence. If you email me I will copy the evidence to you and give you the opportunity to reconsider your statment.