View Full Version : CAP371 - Simplified Version Needed!
Is there a consensus of opinion that CAP371 needs to have a simplified version for the sole use of pilots?
This document seems to flummox the most experience of pilots who have difficulty in interpretating the rules.
I can not imagine why pilots will not unquestionably accept the word of ops/crewing personnel when asked to perform some given task. Instead you have to spend a considerable amount of your time explaining the rules and why they are able to do the duty assigned. If I don’t question your ability to fly the aircraft, don’t question our ability.
Additionally, if you seek advice from the publishers of this working document quite often they offer differing interpretations and display difficulty in understanding their own rules!!!
I do accept that there might be cause to look at the training offered to crewing/ops staff to enable them to function competently, so perhaps that’s where the problem lies.
squeakyunclean
2nd Aug 2000, 18:31
The reason pilots question crewing/ops is that on occasion we are asked to perform duties outside the rules of the ftl. eg.
given change to duty at 0900 to report at 2315, depart at 0015, return 0945. Total fdp 1045 max allowable 1015? When queried with crewing told ...quick turnaround, blah, good winds, blah, higher cruise speed, blah, blah. All of it bollo*ks. Asked to speak to management who just confirmed all the bullsh*t. This may answer your question.
CJ - Good thoughts.
Its about time 371/FTL was cleaned up and brought up to date. Lets take all the ambiguities (ooooops spelling!)out.
That way we know where we stand, so do the aircrew and management.
No arguments then. If crew are FTL, no standbys to replace = night stop, ops next day etc.
Don't have a problem with that.
Only 3 things important in aviation, safety, safety and safety. Oh and since we all get paid peanuts, why should we stick our neck on the line.
squeakyunclean
sounds like you are with a bunch that safety doesn't mean alot! I am with waco on that issue, safety is no accident.
From what I have seen alot the problems stems from staff not being adequately trained to be able to perform their tasks competently.
I have to say that CAP371 is easy enough to follow with ntaoch 6/94 clearing up the confusion caused by 371!!
The bottom line I am afraid is contained in the air nav orders, with the onus on the aircrew to ensure that they are legal the perform a duty. Therefore should ftl be included on all aircrew induction training courses whether flight deck or cabin crew?
Grandad Flyer
3rd Aug 2000, 02:45
Although in general our crewing/ops departments are pretty good, I too have been asked to do a duty which was outside limits.
I was on standby very early (like 5am), called at 11 to start a duty at 2pm, off duty c 1am, 3 sectors. That seems like longer than the legal 9.5 hours FDP to me. Wasn't even mentioned. Not only that but when I had completed the duty I was told I should have not written on the fact that I had been on standby since 5am as I now needed a really long rest period, which cocked up the next days duty. Erm, yeah, and that would be my fault would it?
Besides which, the buck stops here - if the CAA were to check up and find that we were on an illegal duty, its our licence that is up for a possible suspension.
We are also supposed to be asked if we can work outside of our contract, but it rarely happens, its usually a "you must do this duty" as opposed to saying "you don't have to do this duty but we'd be grateful if you would".
So come on, you can't really blame us can you?
Ok, my twopence worth....
If Crew Control are asking crew's to do something that is out of 371 limits then I would say it was down to inexperiance of that Crewing staff member.....or unprofessionalism, I mean, what does he/she think his/her job description is.
To a new person to Crewing CAP371 looks bloody awful !!, maybe there should be a simplified version and certainly made available to crews, who are generally pretty good on basic knowledge but still room for improvement !!! - as an example, it's amazing how many Discretion Reports I get which have been worked out including 30 mins de-brief or standby start time is FDP start time. An ex-airline used to have a crewing rep. to visit all ABinitio courses to introduce themselves and go through the Crew Control's general working practices, an excellent idea but I've never seen it since.
And on a final note why do Pilots always quote "The CAA will take away my licence" well, Bollo*ks - the CAA will not take away anybodys licence for busting an FDP or any other legality on your roster, it's the operator who will get a wrist slapping not the flight crew, the CAA can only suspend your licence on medical grounds. Please come up with another excuse from now on!!
Cheers
007
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Hear all....see all....say n'owt !
Like that first sentence JB.
How's it all hanging by the way ?
Bronze god yet ?
JB
try reading art64(1) of the ano. Aircrew can be prosecuted under this article.
remember there are fdp busts & then there are fdp busts!!!
see what happens if by accident an discretion goes over the 3 hr mark. All are in the firing line, especially the aircrew.
Due to the complexity of the subject, why does it receive very little priority when it comes to staff training?
waco - sounds like you have previous with JB??
JB - could tell all - but then I'd have to shoot you !
Close to max FDP, think we all remember KLM at TFS, enough said...........
One thing I've never understood about this industry.
Pilots, fully trained obviously !
Cabin crew, trained accordingly
Engineers, lots of nice bits of paper for those guys.
Yet the chaps and chapesses who run a multi billion dollar capital intensive, quick moving industry where tens of thousands can be spent in an instant are hardly trained !
Why ?
Well we all know that the power in UK aviation still rests with the four gold bars and if you don't fly you are not as important. Goodness forbid that any one on the ground in European aviation should be given any real power. Just think, they would have to pay us real money.
I'm lucky enough to have an FAA dispatchers licence. This would not solve all the problems in the world if a European equivilent was introduced but it would certainly prove to the rest of the industry that the ops and crewing chaps and chapesses ARE intelligent, dedicated, hard working, well trained individuals.
It just won't happen though cos the powers that be don't want it.
ps do I get a round of applause for my 50th posting!
squeakyunclean
3rd Aug 2000, 20:51
That depends on the other 49...
This should make things more clearer...
The CAA are about to scrap the "fixed" duty hour limitations for Aircrew and replace with "Rolling" limits as the fixed weeks contravenes EU/JAR rules, or more likely because the Nigels have moaned about how hard they work. If only...
007 - confirm or deny!
Funny also how the rules go out the window on xmas eve or when its a week on the beach job - cynical I know dont bother telling me i'm a dick
Don't see why the current max duty week has to change. Under eu rules the max working week allowed is 48 hours averaged over 8 weeks I believe.
So taking that into account as FD can only work 95 hours in a rolling 2 week period they should not fall foul of that rule. However, cabin crew different due to the increase hours they are permitted to work, so that might have to change.
As previously stated, strange that they is not the same dedication to training ops/crewing staff as there is aircrew!!!
There have been weekly courses held by the airlines at BOH, but that only scratches the surface. About 1 day spent on crewing!!!!!!
Course at BOH ? are those the UKOMA course's?
From what I hear ideal for novices/Ops Assist types but nothing else, mind you, it's a start I suppose...!!!
OC41,
I had heard of these duty hour limits changing about a year ago but nothing else since....not really sure myself, present duty and flying hour limits are workable, it would be silly to change.
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Hear all....see all....say n'owt !
Sounds like some fine 'sharp' pencilling going on with some rosters! From my experience the proper use of computer systems should put a stop to this practice. This will especially apply if trying to assign an illegal fdp, as any half-good system will be set-up so that you cannot do this.
Whilst on computer systems, of those that use one, how would you rate its usefulness in assisting you with your duties?
Something else that is noticeable is that as airlines have expanded the role of operations has changed to where you now have seperate ops & crewing staff. Over a period of time this has resulted in ops staff only knowing the ops functions & V.V. for crewing. Very few airlines have 'dual skilled' staff. This is not necessarily the fault of individuals not wishing to learn all aspects of OCC, but possibly company's not preparing to invest in ensuring that staff receive the correct training, which will offer more flexibility & understanding.
Also need to remember that some of the questionable decisions that are made have a large imput from those that like to ignore rules - COMMERCIAL http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif
Wig Wag
5th Aug 2000, 01:33
1. CAP 371 was written to stop airliners crashing due to tired pilots.
2. Since it was written things have changed.
3. The document needs re writing to reflect modern schedules and practices.
4. This should cut down on early starts, increase min rest and reduce sleep loos through duties throught the night.
5. IF WE DON'T ALL START SHOUTING LOUDLY NOTHING WILL CHANGE.
Night Freight 1
27th May 2001, 19:41
Just a thought has anybody tried writing the FTL scheme as a flow chart?
no sig
28th May 2001, 00:10
Waco, in your post you mention power on the ground?, has nothing to do with power, but has everthing to do with responsibility. The Commander is rightly the one who calls the shots with regard to the operation of the aircraft even under FAR121, operational control on the other hand is 'exercised ' by the staff designated by the Company as competent to do so. Therein is the difference, competency!
We do indeed miss having a formal accrediation/licence in the UK and this has over the years resulted in often less than competent staff exercising operational and particularly for Companies who do not take the time to train their staff.As an ops bod for over 30 years I can tell you its no wonder some crews don't always trust what they get out of the Ops department, and it hurts me to say that.
Unlike aircrew, or FAA dispatchers, Ops staff in the UK lack a legislative requirement to train as individuals therefore, many ops staff fail to appreciate the environment they work in requires them to ensure they have a high standard of aeronautical knowledge. All too often knowledge is collected piece meal and with little depth.
As a lad I had an Ops Director who warned me about the 'a little knowedlge is a dangerous thing', the longer I spend in this industry I appreciate and understand that simple and well known saying more.
It is unlikely that we will see an FAA style licence, but we most certainly need to work towards an accreditation for Ops bods which will mandate a minimum level of knowledge for the job. THE ICAO Flight Operations Officer syllabus is a very good start, and more appropriate in Europe than the FAA dispatcher licence. Start there any of you who want to know what you need to know, or perhaps with the ATPL syllabus.
I'm sorry to have got off the orignal point of this thread, What JB007 says is true, it is more often the Company/Ops Mgr who gets in the neck at flight ops inspection when an FTL bust or error is made. The CAA expect the exercise of of operational control, that is Company adherence to the FTL scheme exercised by the Ops department, they know crews will get it wrong, but both of us shouldn't! Just this last week I took the blame for a crew member who took a rest reduction without providing adequate travel time to and from the airport, the crew member did it, ops failed to prevent it! The airline took the hit not the crew memeber.
In the crewing world it is one of the few areas where Ops/Crewing and the pilot do indeed share a joint responsibility.
MilOps
29th May 2001, 11:39
No Sig.
Can you give me the gen on the ICAO OPs Officers Licence please. I've made enquiries, as I'm trying to get myself spammed up with civvy qualifications prior to demob in 3 years, but nobody I've approached so far has heard of it. Additionally I've got the gen on the C&Gs, at your suggestion, and will start them soon.
cheers MO.
5552N0426W
29th May 2001, 14:36
no sig
I too remember the same Ops Director tell me that. It's made an impression on me in my 26 years in the business.
Just be very carefull and if in any doubt, ask for advice. Your Manager should be available to give you guidance but if not, your FOI is always around at the end of a phone if you need clarification and I've always found them very helpful.
no sig
30th May 2001, 01:18
MilOps -it's an ICAO document, sorry don't have it to hand for the reference, its Flight Operation Officer training syllabus. Bolton Street College in Dublin, I believe run their course to the ICAO syllabus, don't think there is a ICAO course in the UK.
5552N - I'll have to plot those coordinates, but it's funny how these thing stick with you eh..