ETOPS,Ferry Flight, RVSM, MNPS

[aviator4294]

Hello Folks,. . I wonder if you can help me about flight planning for a new airplane ferry flight from Boeing. We are going to take off from Gander with a brand new B737-800 from Gander (for the fuel rates) and fly to some where in Europe. I wonder my plan is correct and the route I planned is: GANDER, N50/W50,N52/W40,N53/W30,N53/W20, N53/W15, UN530 and so on at FL410. Do you think I can get a promlem free clearance for this flight plan ETOPS,RVSM and MNPS wise. Thanks for your replies.. .P.S. This is a little urgent.

[Captain Airclues]

If you need to ask a question like this on PPRuNe then please get somebody who is more qualified to do the delivery for you.. .. .Airclues

[OO-AOG]

Where are you flying to? Is you aircraft RVSM certified and MNPS equipped?, do you intend to use the tracks?, are you suppose to follow ETOPS rules or not?, are you flying private or under a commercial AOC? . .A couple of questions to be answered before we can answer your questions...? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[aviator4294]

1.We are flying to istanbul. .2.Our aircraft will be RVSM approved for this Ferry flt by the state of registry. .3.We are not going to follow ETOPS rules because we are not ETOPS approved yet. .4.We are going to fly with a temporary decleration of competency or with a spl ferry flt permit (will be advised soon by our caa)

[fcit]

Aviator,. .. .the routing you have in mind will most probably not work. I have been flight planning for a couple of those flights and usually it is preferred to utilize the so called "Blue Spruce" routes. . .. .Those will lead you across Greenland using CYFB, BGSF, BIKF as enroute alternates (note that BGSF is not open 24hours, so you will have to make arrangements in order to use it as an alternate or plan your departure accordingly).. .. .Besides the RVSM, MNPS and ETOPS approval, you should also have a look whether your B737 has HF radios on board. If you don't than you will be limited to VHF routes (and there will be no ifs and buts to that).. .. .Of course, a lot depends on the requirements that are put onto you special ferry permit, by your CAA, but operating North of the organized track system, you will have the least problems.. .. .Check out Chapter 11 of the MNPS doc at <a href="ftp://www.nuntius.co.uk/nat/MNPSA9/mnps9.pdf" target="_blank">ftp://www.nuntius.co.uk/nat/MNPSA9/mnps9.pdf</a>. .. .Also, this is written for loss of com equipment, a lot is also true for ferry flights with inadequate equipment.. .. .Isn´t Boeing usually providing for flight planning for delivery flights?. .. .Any questions, drop me an email.. .. .Cheers. .fcit

[OO-AOG]

Still not sure what you are allowed to do, but if I had to send one of my trijets across the pond today, I would probably fly this: CYQX..5050N..5140N..5230N..5220N..LIMRI, this is the optimized route for today (not taking into account the tracks, you need to fly below/above or between the levels in use).. .As you are flying a twin, I would still suggest to comply with a 120 rules for your enroute alternates (I always use BGBW/BIKF and EINN).. .So the route above might be a little bit south to comply.. .As fcit told you above, the blue spruce route might be a safe option, I've done it a couple of time when our small twins need to go home for maintenance, but with a brand new 738, I am sure you can fly a more direct route. But again, it's all question of what you are allowed to do by your company/country regulations and aircraft equipment.

[fcit]

BGBW is not approved with the OPS SPECS/OM Part C of a couple of airlines I know. First due to the simple fact that the approach is a nightmare (with mins just like VFR mins and high mountains around it - when adding your alternate mins you have to have very good conditions), second because of rather limiting opening hours.. .True Greenland is somewhat limiting, but I usually prefer to use BGSF.. .. .Cheers. .fcit

[OO-AOG]

fcit. .. .Indeed, my mistake. BGSF is more suitable.

[CIV5C]

Capt Airclues,. .If you can't write any more constructive posts, let someone else post them for you! . .There's guys out there who might not have the same experience as some of us. . .This forum is all about helping your colleagues. One day you might end up yourself with a question which to others seems ridiculous.

[knows]

I'm afraid Capt airclues is right - some of the advice here is simply wrong!. .Pprune isn't a great place to learn this sort of info!

[Captain Airclues]

CIV5C. .. .I am somewhat confused by your post. Nowhere did I state that we should not discuss MNPS, RVSM or whatever you like. What I said was that someone with no training or experience in MNPS operation, which aviator4294s post clearly demonstrated, should not be operating in this area. Most airlines spend a great deal of time and money training their crews in North Atlantic operation. Discusions on PPRuNe are no substitute for this.. .. .aviator4294. .. .As well as practical training, some airlines produce computer based training courses for MNPS operation. These include procedures in the event of engine failure, weather avoidence, wake turbulence and radio failure. They also contain audio/visual briefings on all of the diversion airfields. You also need to bear in mind that once airbourne you might be rerouted. Make sure that you know how to calculate ITTs and amend the distances. Also ensure that you fully understand the track structure in case of a diversion.. .There are currently several pilots who are highly experieced in MNPS operation who are sitting at home looking for work. Why not take one of these guys with you to sit on the jump-seat. He would be worth his weight in gold if you had a problem.. .. .Airclues

[CI300]

ETOPS ? Why are you worried about that. Delivery flight is non-commercial thus no need to plan etops. very handy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .As for a route on a purely best time/burn how about :. .CYQX DCT YQX 5150N 5345N 5635N 5730N 5825N ERAKA UN581 BEN UN585. .FINDO UY802 RAPIT TEXEL 5110E STO30 4620E SERCE VA4 GOTAN VG8 IST. .DCT LTBA. .And an altitude profile of. .370 5110E 390 STO30 410. .To give you an EET of 0648 and net fuel load 18166kgs.. .This is optimised for the B738 (non winglet) on today's winds.. . . . <small>[ 21 March 2002, 19:54: Message edited by: wong one ]</small>

[limey lad]

may i suggest routing bfi-yyr-pik-destination. this will follow great circle routing quite nicely and will also allow you to operate close to the blue spruce routing allowing vhf communications all the way. yyr handles delivery flights very well - woodward aviation (sita yyrwacr). i work for northwest, and we have had over 100 airbuses delivered pik-yyr over the years with great success. if you fly bfi-yqx, you may well end up flying far longer than optimal - and any savings you may make on fuel purchases will be lost by higher enroute burn. it obviously depends on the winds, but 95% of the time, great circle routings over greenland will be far more efficient. i work our sea-ams flights on a daily basis, and routings are often north of yfb, but i think that yyr may well be a better option for you. i did a quick sea-yyr flight plan for a dc10 at mach 82, and it was around 4+52 enroute. yyr-pik on optimal routing was 4+10. this was based on winds for march 20th. routing that day was yyr..valie..scrod..56/50..58/40..58/30..57.20..mimku.un562.mac. if you are not hf-equiped, a good routing would be yyr..foxxe..loach..58/50..ozn..61/40..63/30..embla..kef..vm..aldan..ratsu.un610.billy.un610.stn. time enroute on this route was 4+35 - so only 25 minutes longer than optimal. if you flew a similar routing out of yqx, it would be a far longer flight due to distance from vhf routing. for a delivery flight, 2 sectors such as this in one day would be about 9 hours flying time....plenty for one day. you will have no problems on such a routing getting fl410 out of yyr provided you don't fly it during the westbound flow of traffic over the atlantic (and especially if the westbound nat-tracks are northerly, which is the norm.) hope this helps.

[Crusty Ol Cap'n]

4294, Good luck with the flight. Get Boeing to help. Lots of good info on <a href="http://www.nat-pco.org." target="_blank">www.nat-pco.org.</a> You could also check the back of the Jeppesen Atlantic Orientation Chart for the relevant details.

[Daifly]

Blo*dy hell.. .. .I have to admit that the very last place I'd be asking for flight planning information would be here (that's not a slate on PPRuNe, which I think is great). . .. .$25,000,000 (or whatever) of brand new metal and you won't even pay the $200 for Jeppesen/BaseOps/Universal etc's advice on North Atlantic flying.... .. .Talk about false economy.

[Capt PPRuNe]

aviator4294 has a problem with email address and all notification of replies are being bounced back to me so i am closing this thread until aviator4294 fixes email address in profile to a valid one.. .. .Please do not use the 'notify by email' each time someone replies to a thread you start if your email address in your profile is no good anymore.