easyJet Airbus 319 LGW F/O

[FMSData]

Good Morning,

I would love to hear from anyone who has recently been through the Type-Rating with easyJet on the Airbus 319 and now based at LGW.

What was the whole experience like from application through to Line Training? I am about to commence training with Cabair at Cranfield and am very interested in applying for this scheme upon completion.

Also, what are the starting salaries after joining easyJet through this route?

Any information would be great.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You seem to be committed to a £70,000 training spend without having done much research. You're by no means alone in this.

Good luck,

WWW

[TurboJ]

Don't try to run before you can walk !!

TJ

[FMSData]

Like you say, no doubt I will run (or walk) in to a big brick wall at some point after I have graduated :ugh:, but Law of Averages surely suggest that getting a job has to happen sooner or later!

I have done research and to me the statistics showing employment from similar Integrated ATPL courses seem to be reasonable at the moment, besides I have wanted to do this for as long as I can remember and I wouldn't stop for anything.

I am really trying to get an idea as to whom the best operators are.

People from Cabair seem to be getting into BA at the moment but I'm not sure if that's for me?

Thanks Guys.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

FMSData - I don't wish to be unkind but it seems possible that you are yet another lamb who has wandered into the wolves enclosure.

Are you aware that a great many people who attend an Integrated flying school never achieve their goal of airline flying?

Would you be able to hazard a guess at the numbers?

Are you aware of how hard it is to find a first job when you have less than 200hrs?

Would you be able to afford a Self Sponsored Type Rating?

Please do use this forum to gather information to inform and assist you in your pursuit of becoming a professional pilot. It is a uniquely valuable resource. But please understand that you seem to have selected both a career and a training path based on alarmingly flimsy research.

WWW


(not that there's anything wrong with Bedfordshires largest flying school)

[scruggs]

People from Cabair seem to be getting into BA at the moment but I'm not sure if that's for me?

No disrespect mate but you should grab any first job with both hands! Only if you've got a few offers can you be a tad selective. I'd hate to think how many wannabes would snap BA's hand off for a job!

Just my 2 cents worth. Good luck at Cabair.

Cheers

S

[FMSData]

WWW; could I ask what your current situation is in the industry, are you an enthuiast or current pilot? I assume you had great difficulty getting a job, if so could you tell me how long it took?

Cheers.

scruggs; good point, I'm sure I wouldn't give up an offer from any airline. What I'm trying to understand is where is the best job out there? And from what I've read easyJet appears to be where most pilots sing their praises.

Cheers.

[AlphaMale]

you are yet another lamb who has wandered into the wolves enclosure

And a dangerous area it is too!

FMS - Research this forum and all the answers will be there. The pilots here are intolerant on new/young guys who come on here asking the same old questions. You will get eaten alive with an attitude of "I'm not sure BA is for me" and saying that Integrated will give you a better chance at the airlines.

You'll be one of many (hundreds in fact) who would have trained at an integrated school looking for a job in the RHS of a shiny jet. Do the sums of how many people graduate from OAT / CTC / Cabair / FTE per year and then take a look at how many job vacancies there are this year. You'll find there are a lot of disappointed 200hr pilots with fATPL's. Then take into account most people will probably go modular to get their fATPL.

People here are struggling to get a job on turbo props having come out of an integrated course. And a lot of pilots are paying the £20k for a Type Rating to make themselves more employable.

Can you afford to pay £70k+ and then £20k in order to get a 'chance' of a job. :cool:

[FMSData]

I'll take you're advice by shutting-up and keep looking.

Sorry Everyone

[MrHorgy]

Don't beat yourself up about asking what you might see as reasonable questions. Harsh words you might get on here but that's the nature of a faceless internet message board.

Keep your eye on the web you'll be surprised how much info is out there. Go and look at some schools and be confident that you can make an informed choice. But scruggs (when is scroggs back I wonder) presents a valid point - take what you get. I'd pilot a flying carpet is someone paid me for the priviledge.

Horgy

[Desk-pilot]

You won't be coming out of any course and choosing who you work for - you'll be coming out of your course and desperately hoping to get a job without having to fork out another £20k for a type rating.

For what it's worth I did the Oxford Integrated route, averaged first time passes at 87%, Passed all flight tests first time (partial IR) and it took me 18 months to find a job on a turboprop (and I had ten years working for an airline in Management as staff behind me!)

There are few professions with such a massive oversupply of candidates to jobs even in the good times (acting and being a rock star are the only two that spring to mind as probably worse!)

Desk-pilot

[Flaperon75]

FMS Data,

Just with regard a couple of points you have made:

"People from Cabair seem to be getting into BA at the moment but I'm not sure if that's for me?" - If you look at the link below to the Cabair employment statistics on their website, you will see that only 1 graduate has gone to BA this year.

http://www.cabair.com/careerpilot/graduates.htm

Also, regarding your query on Easyjet, I believe you have to have 500 hours multi-crew experience, and even then you have to pay for your type rating. See the link below:

http://www.easyjet.com/EN/Jobs/Pilot/pilotrecruitment_typeratingsponsorshipscheme.html

So this may be a reality for your second commercial airline.

If you are going to Cabair then your most likely destination would be Flybe. They have strong links in to this airline, although you would have to perform well in groundschool (ave. over 85%in exams) and acheive first series passes in your flying exams. Also, just to make you aware of reality, if you do acheive a position with Flybe, you would have to be prepared to fly from any of their bases....

Hope that's helped open your eyes a little.....

[londonmet]

Please close thread. Gone down the standard PPRUNE route.....:ugh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Actually I'd like this thread to remain.

If the Wannabes forum had but one purpose in life it would be to act as a reality check for people whose only source of information and advice is OATS/CABAIR/FTE and the rest of the Vested Interests that sell flying training.

That in this day and age people still wander into the world of Wannabeeism, order some brochures, then decide to spend £70k at a school because they think it will get them into BA actually staggers me.

I put more research into which type of ballpoint I buy next week.

For the most recent year (2006/7) the UK CAA issued 1146 new CPLs (Aeroplanes). We can assume that each one of these was to someone aspiring to become an airline pilot. More than this number of course start a CPL course but some people give up along the way.

Lets say that every one of these newly minted CPL holders gets all their exams and their IR and MCC and enters the job market in the UK.

You have 1146 CV's being added to the pile on each Chief Pilots desk.

There are 15,477 pilots holding UK CPL or ATPL (Aeroplanes) licences and 204 of them are currently aged 59 and likely to be retiring next year.

Assuming the average professional pilot starts work at 25 and finishes at 60 he has a 35 year working life and therefore 15,477 divided by 35 means there is a likely replacement level required of 442 new pilots each year.

Yet each year around 1,200 are churned out by the flying schools.

Ah! I hear your cry, but what about expansion?

Indeed, some airline are expanding and adding more aircraft to their UK fleet. Next year you might see EZY and RYA add 10 more airframes to the UK fleet and possibly the same from all the other operators combined. With 12 pilots needed per airframe that is (20 times 6) 240 new jobs to add to the 442 retirees. So with 1147 newly minted pilots chasing 682 jobs you can see that competition is tough indeed. And there are already unemployed pilots out there.

And then of course, the elephant in the room, the European pilots who all speak English and would be delighted to get a first airline job in the UK. You are up against all of them. By way of compensation you are of course able to apply for any flying job on the continent as long as your German/Swedish/French/Spanish/Czech is up to the required standard. Which it isn't.

So.

As you can see, just taking the most basic 15 minutes with an internet and the back of a fag packet we can prove that an awful lot of people who pay an awful lot of money to learn to fly NEVER EVER manage a career as a pilot.

This is not something that I have ever heard or seen pointed out by any flying school.

Quite the opposite in fact.

Good luck,

WWW


ps The job market now is as good as it generally gets and will probably deteriorate. However there have been much worse times to consider starting commercial training.

[FMSData]

WWW thanks for the reality check, but I'm going to continue my training as an Airline Pilot.

Like you've there are lots of unemployed pilots, mostly with good experience behind them. But would applying for a TR with CTC to enter their hold pool be just as bad to get an interview/assessment for?

Worst comes to worst I could pay for a TR, which has has its problems of course (what a/c) but I know Ryanair do a Self-Sponsored TR. Does anyone know how much attention this SSTR gets at Ryanair - are their lots of pilots prepared to pay for TR?

I know I started the thread abit poor, but I have done my research - the problem was is that it was mainly the level of exam and IR success that made me choose where to go, as all the main schools showed reasonable levels of employment.

PPRuNe is the only place I have found that this sort of information. Getting this information is great but I had no idea at the levels of unemployment.

Please continue to post as I'm grateful for help.

PS. Anybody have a different method of obtaining a job? - hour build until 1500 hours etc...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You might want to make absolutely sure that you have examined the Modular option in enough detail. The savings can add up to the cost of a SSTR, ie around £20k.

How are you getting the money for this training? Will you be in debt or will the people you borrow it off be in trouble if you can't repay them for many years?

WWW

[Vito Corleone]

welshman, ur fag packet maths is excellent! :D
If only we'd all seen this at the start of training. So it would seem that just under half of all wannabes never get there. What a sorry tale indeed, the only winners are the flying schools.

[future captain]

I've been looking into training alot for the past few years. Towards the beginning the flashy OAT brochures etc would sway me towards them and make me think they are the "gods" of flight training. Now slightly older and more wiser. I read the posts on this forum, many of them from people like WWW, scroggs, "the usual suspects" who have first hand experience of the industry.
Going modular you could complete everything in the same space of time but with 20k saved, then start looking for jobs, then if you have no luck, maybe look into a FI rating, and worse comes worse a type rating. I reckon all 3 of those would amass to an integrated course with OAT or FTE.
Some people go integrated some modular, some get jobs, some don't. Hard decisions again for me :ugh:
Good luck :ok:
Once I finish uni I should have around 20k saved up, mostly consisting of the student loans i took out. So i will need another 20 odd k, my family are supportive and are willing to assist.
The loans have to be paid back when I earn over the 15k threshold, so I won't have banks chasing me left right centre, the money will go when I am earning some, whether it be flying or not.

Its not easy :{

[FMSData]

The cost of my training is around £55,000 with a £6,500 budget for living costs. I have a lot of money that I have saved during my time in IT at Scottish & Southern Energy, and from money my parents have put away for me, which means I only need a £20,000 from the bank; the loan has a 2 yr deferral on it which means I don't start paying it back until October 2009 which is 1 year after I finish my ATPL. Its a 9 year term with £300 a Month resulting in £12,000 interest (so paying back £32,000).

I still have the luxury of living at home with my parents when I have finished my training and have no other responsibilities; except my girlfriend - so my expenses will hopefully be low during the hunt for a job. I most likely be getting a temp job in IT soon after finishing my ATPL to help raise more money towards a potential TR etc..

I managed to raise 20k myself during my youth and fulltime employment (selling everything in my bedroom too!) and had 10k from parents, as they good clearly since my dedication, and 10k from my grandads property after he died when I was 5 I think!

I haven't got a 70k loan hanging over my head with £800 pm repayments paying back 100k like some of the guys on here! So this does affect my decision to continue as my potential risk of going into debt is reasonably low as I think I could manage a £300 pm with a temp job. Obviously I don't want to just throw away my cash!

I have worked hard and spent very little money to get this opportunity and it would break my heart to give up now!

Cheers for the continued help and guidance.

Best of luck all.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

226 FI rating for aeroplanes were issued by the UK CAA in 2006/7.

It was 266 the year before that.

There is somewhat of a shortage for FI's at the moment though the season is soon to be over.

Good luck,

WWW

[Superpilot]

My guess would be that around 1/5 of those 920 would settle for anything less than an airline job. That 1/5 therefore will end up within some small scale commercial operation. With the remaining competing against the 750 or so from the previous year who are still waiting to get employed and likewise for them....you get the picture.

[timzsta]

What there has never been a shortage of is 200hr newbies wanting a job on a shiny new jet.
The shortage for airlines is generally experienced FO's. In the past few years that has been to some extent generated by the rapid expansion of the LCC's. As soon as FO's become experienced they move to the LHS. I believe 2700hrs in the minimum time for command now in Ryanair as an example.
That said some do get lucky as the airlines need keep the pyramid of experience in the company balanced.
So when taking people on ideally the airline wants someone type rated and experienced on one of their aircraft types - thus minimal training required and minimal training risk. After that they want somebody with commercial airline experience, after that somebody with IFR/Multi time (air taxi etc). After that ME/IR instructors, after that CPL instructors, after that the likes of me (PPL instructor), after that 200 hr CPL/IR.
There is a shortage of Instructors though. What is driving it is fewer people are considering it as an option to gain experience and secondly the money is cr*p.
But it's a start. Instructing is challenging and rewarding. You will learn from it, and your flying will improve. And I am 6 hours closer to that first airline job tonight then I was on Friday night. What have you done this weekend to get closer to living that dream...

[Winkiepinkie]

At the risk of getting a severe bollocking off the likes of WWW and Scroggs, could I be so cheeky as to ask for a few stats regarding (specifically) the integrated route flaunted by Cabair, OAT, CTC and FTE (the big schools in general). The reason I ask is because I have researched this matter quite a bit and for the life of me I cannot find any 'negative' info.

All the people I have spoken to (schools included, and yes I know - it’s like taking advice from the devil), instructors, graduates etc have stated that for the most part (and it seems almost 100%) people are finding jobs very soon after graduation and VERY few not finding a job.

Like I said, I was (still am) rather sceptical of this info, but could anyone (esp WWW) shed any light onto what might be the ‘true’ numbers behind integrated students graduating and find jobs and those that do not.

Thanks a bunch, w.

[MrHorgy]

Define 'job' - A lot of schools announce sucessful placements with Ryanair, but that's a bit different than say a place at bmi or BA.

A better question would be to ask the schools for raw figures, or a percentage in employment, and the average time from pass to job, if they have that sort of data available. A school can claim they have people in jobs, but what if they took 6 years to find it?

I believe the only school that can claim near 100% placement is CTC.

Horgy

[Dan Winterland]

WWW. Your long post was excellent. Just one issue. Don't buy ballpoints -nick them from hotel rooms like everyone else!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I challenge anyone to rival my extensive collection of hotel pens. Particularly my 'Ramada' section which comprehensively spans 4 generations of type including the rarely seen 'blue inked twisty'..

As for schools stats - fact is they don't know themselves. Most leave the school without finding a job. When they do maybe 6 or 12 months later there's very little reason to inform the school of the fact.

My guess would be of the 100 graduates from Kiddlington, Bedfordshire or Andalucia about 50 find airline jobs within the first 6 months. 20 others find some kind of flying employment and around 30 die a cold lonely death in their own beds having never been paid to fly anything for anyone.

Cheers

WWW

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

WWW, you havent been to the Hilton then? Cardboard biro's, simply terrible :ugh:.

[MrHorgy]

Actually I find the Hilton biro's surprisingly good. I have hotel pens from a few in Cancun - limited editions though obviously, the hotels aren't there anymore!

Horgy

[captain111]

Ok, here goes...

I have read this thread with great interest as I too shall be blindly handing over a significant sum of cash to a certain integrated school close to a rather famous university very shortly and would like to offer a couple of (hopefully) innocuous remarks.

I'm sure anybody who has researched any time into the various training options available will have stumbled across the employment statistics on the OAT website. Whilst I am not so naive as to suggest that all the employment successes for this year are necessarily all graduates from this year, the fact that there are consistent levels of employment over 3 years seems to suggest a healthy level of employment success. Furthermore, on the OAT forum, it is stated that the number of integrated students trained per year is capped at 220 and that the cadets (thomas cook et al) are not included in the statistics (but are included in the 220 trained). Thus, if we assume that the majority of the employments occur in a reasonable period of time (is that not a fair assumption?) the numbers seem to suggest a somewhat more positive outlook than might have been suggested previously.

Another point that I have often thought about is this. Whilst I agree that the schools themselves will prefer to hide negative statisitics under the carpet why is it that, if so many people are forking out such significant sums of money and ending up in Tescos, they aren't shouting about it? Sure there are the odd people who crop up on this site that have a hunch and haven't got to where they thought they would get to, but why aren't there more?
I'm sure I have been considering this through a pair of very fetching rose-tinted glasses (and do please let me know if they don't suit), and do not get me wrong - I am more than realistic about the pitfalls and risks associated with entering this career - but I do believe that a blanket approach to the entire training industry is a somewhat unhelpful way to assess training risk.

Send on the firing squad....:eek:

p.s. when I went to visit the bank manager at the HSBC, he not only had unblemished praise for OAT (don't forget I was already signed up so absolutely no need for the sales pitch) but was adamant that the vast majority of graduates on the HSBC books who where dutifully paying back their loans were in flying jobs. An important point he also raised that I think is imperative was that, in his experience, those who weren't were as a result of their own faults. This really ought not to be overlooked when considering the rather alarming probabilities mentioned elsewhere on this thread!

[future captain]

Good read this thread is.

Just a side note: CAT3C AUTOLAND

Loving the "defrosting ATPL" comment in profile, first for me.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You can rest assured that any figures used by a schools marketing department represent the VERY best case statistic.

I used to be an instructor in Jerez and have friends who have instructed in Oxford and Cabair. I KNOW that quite a few people don't ever make it despite writing the big cheques. I can't challenge the schools own figures but they don't tally with my experience in the business.

Times have been exceptionally good in recent years though so the figures may be quite high.

Good luck,

WWW

[captain111]

I'm sorry mr WWW, but I have to take issue with a number of your points.

What exactly do you mean by 'You can rest assured that any figures used by a schools marketing department represent the VERY best case statistic'? Surely you are either employed or not and not in the Schrodinger state of either at the same time? I really think that such a bold remark requires some sort of explanation.

Maybe it's just me but it seems that you have an axe to grind with the integrated camp. Having suggested that the figures 'represent the VERY best case statistic' you fail to substantiate this with any evidence and then fall back to the rather limp excuse that employment has been rather positive recently. I'm struggling to see where this is going.

I appreciate that you are in a far more knowledgeable position than myself on this topic but I find your arguments less than persuasive.


Just my thoughts.

[MrHorgy]

Not that im jumping in WWW's shoes here, but I thought it would be clear that these companies, whether integrated or modular, are businesses. As such they try to create the best image of themselves in order to attract new business. That's why you should go on the figures that the schools provide alone.

horgy

[speedrestriction]

I had a little giggle when I saw FMSData's post saying eagerly he will follow his dreams of becoming an "Airline Pilot." Not so long ago that was me, however getting out of bed this morning at 4.30 I felt less an Airline Pilot and more an airline pilot! Best of luck with the training and job seeking.
sr

[FMSData]

Thanks SR! I've learn't alot on here and am grateful for the continued information. I will try hard to get great results on my exams and hope to get recommended to BA on the SSP! Who knows.

FMS

[Desk-pilot]

I can only speak as a Graduate of OATS APP from over 2 years ago.

Of the ten or so on my course a couple dropped out of the course due to either outside pressures (kids) or lack of study leading to failing exams or tests.

Of those nine who finished the course three of them ended up paying for their own type rating to secure a job.

The rest got jobs with airlines willing to pay the type rating and bond them. Two of us got turoprop not jet jobs and in my case that was well over a year after Graduating (probably because I'm an old fart!)

All of us got a flying job. In most cases this was due to OATS referring us, that referral is really worth its weight in gold - in fact I doubt I would have got a job without it despite grades above 85% and passes in everything first time/series due to my age (36 on Graduating)

I do know of a couple of people from the course before us who still haven't got jobs, although I gather one of those has now decided to pursue music as a career.

Hope this is helpful.

Desk-pilot

[Kit d'Rection KG]

...that this thread makes me think even more that anyone training to be an airline pilot now, simply lacks the judgement ever to do the job properly.

Anyone of sound judgement wouldn't gamble enormous debt against the chance of a worthwhile flying career!!!

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[FatFlyer]

Just to answer the original question, 3 ways into easyjet
1) CTC cadet
2) TRSS
3) Direct entry

with only 200 hours you would only be eligible for CTC cadet which means going through their selection scheme. 6 months on about £1000, then onto easy pay scale.

TRSS, if you have some turboprop or small jet experience, (figures change but i think it is about 500 hours multi crew) starting on £39780, after 5 years £44,780 (£5000 a year reduction to pay off the training "loan" which is taken out in your name)

Direct entry with medium or heavy jet expereince, start on £44780 (£72000) as captain.

Also sector pay around £10 per sector depending on distance.
pay to increase soon with pay deal negotiated(about 4%)

Good luck with your career choice, yes not everyone gets through, but if it is something you really want to do and don't try, you could regret it for the rest of your career.
(then when you achieve your goal, you might find getting up at 4.00am for five days in a row not as much fun as youi thought)

Best Wishes
FF

[Kit d'Rection KG]

but if it is something you really want to do and don't try, you could regret it for the rest of your career.

This could work both ways: there really is the risk that you'll be accepted!!!

:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

[v6g]

I'm sorely temped to start a training school - it's clearly where the really easy money is.

[bilderberger]

There are some comedians on these threads!!!

FMS Data, I do not know what planet your on, but look at it like this mate........Plan for it all to go t*t's up (then, when it does, you can flip burgers with me in Macdonalds!!!)......Here is the best part,
If it all doesn't go t*.t's up....then you've made it haven't you.
Plan worked!!!!

good luck

P.S I blame the parents.