I had Engine faillure for 1 second during take-off

[sternone]

Hello,

My last flight encountered a strange problem, i was taking off doing a touch and go ( i was already flying for 30minutes or so) and while i was climbing at a height of around 300ft the engine stopped completely for about 1 second and then went on on full power.

It was in my Cessna 152 trainer... I immediatly putted the nose down to do an emergency landing, not only the engine stopped but my teacher at that moment didn't knew what to say, we finished the circuit and went for a full stop.

I had set the carb heather to cold while in short final, when i talked to the technician he said it wasn't bad, he said i probably had some icing.

It scared me to death, what do you think happend ? Carburator icing ?

[Mark 1]

the engine stopped completely for about 1 second

I suspect you don't mean that you were staring at a stationary prop, or for that matter even lost all power.
A briefly sticking valve (usually due to lead fouling) would seem like quite an abrupt power loss, and is not that unusual.
Other than that, maybe some kind of lean cut; water or dirt in the carburetter, or an overlean mixture due to air leak or carb adjustment.

I'm just guessing.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

my teacher at that moment didn't knew what to say
Find another instructor.

[A V 8]

I've only every experienced carb icing once. The engine didn't stop firing - it just coughed and spluttered a bit.

Maybe you were unlucky enough to have a bit of ice the right size and shape to block the carb. At 300', you have a lot going on in your head, but, did you put carb heat on? Was there a slightly higher than normal RPM reading (assuming you were on full power on the climb out) if you did? How long was the carb heat on for before you closed it on short final?

Maybe if you could describe the engine characteristics leading up to and after the event in a bit more detail, maybe those more technically minded than me could make an educated guess.

Would air in the fuel line cause this?

Edit: previous 2 posts made as I was typing this. I echo Gertrude's sentiments.

[IO540]

IF the power loss was sudden and was felt as a total loss of thrust, I would guess air or some other ***t in the fuel pipe, IMHO.

Strip down the entire fuel system.

[High Wing Drifter]

Agree with IO, an all-nothing-all scenario does not sound like spark or ice. Must be fuel.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Edit: previous 2 posts made as I was typing this. I echo Gertrude's sentiments.
Usual caveats of course - we weren't there, so don't actually know what was going on in the instructor's head.

If the instructor really didn't know what to do when faced with an EFATO then most definitely find another one - you'll live longer.

But perhaps the instructor simply did nothing for half a second or so to see whether you were going to cope with the emergency, and was going to jump in if you got it wrong - and half a second would seem like an extremely long time in those circumstances!

(When you come to the test the examiner will do and say nothing in such circumstances, until he feels your lives are in danger. Coping with a real emergency is part of the test. Personally I feel that that's all very well, but I tell the examiner that if we have a fire in the air then sod the test, he is to take control immediately and try to get us down alive.)

[IRRenewal]

I'd be very surprised if it was indeed a full second. I'd guess the multiplication factor due to adrenaline in these sort of cases is between 5 and 10.

[VFE]

Is this the same instructor you expressed dissatisfaction with a few weeks back Sternone? Alarms bells are ringing.....

VFE.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Amazing how time flows at such times. I thought I was going to have to jump out of a spinning Bulldog some years ago, and went through a series of checks before we recovered anyway (I was observer, not pilot). My perception was of about 10 seconds elapsed - when I put a stopwatch on the cockpit camera afterwards, it was less than 2.

Yes, you need to certainly talk seriously to your instructor about it. Or the CFI?

My best guess would be a bit of muck in the carb bowl, which got into the jet, caused a momentary loss of power, which in itself changed the jet characteristics and cleared the muck.

Or vapour locking?

Not icing I'd guess, that tends to be more gradual and at lower powers.

G

[draccent]

I wouldn't even look at that plane again until the motor had a full once over.

[Mark1234]

Also my first thought, however, if he was at 300 agl, the throttle had been wide open for a bit..

I'd be guessing at fuel/fuel contamination.

[kiwi chick]

my teacher at that moment didn't knew what to say'

... I certainly didn't run out of things to say when it happened to me :E

I concur with the s**t in the fuel theory and that it probably seemed a hell of a lot longer at the time!

That or it was the Aliens.

:ok:

[slim_slag]

Yes, I think the comment was a bit hard on the instructor. Remember, an instructor is not an engineer. The answer was probably got by people on this site, but I bet it took over a second for them to work it out.

If something like this happens your brain should immediately be moving towards the memory items checklist. You don't have brain time to diagnose things until you have got those items sorted, and then only if you have time, which at 300ft AGL is not going to happen. I also think it been shown it takes about five seconds for the brain to actually realise something is wrong and start to do something about it, and that is during check outs where the pilot is expecting something.

[bookworm]

"my teacher at that moment didn't knew what to say" -- Find another instructor.

I'm surprised you say that, Gertie. The better instructors where you and I fly wouldn't have opened their eyes in a second, let alone their mouths.

[Whirlybird]

Why would you expect the instructor to say ANYTHING? A sudden engine failure is a time to act, not speak. And since Sternone reacted correctly, there was nothing to be said at that particular moment. If the engine hadn't started, well that's a different matter. But it did. And quite likely the instructor didn't know what had happened either; why should he unless he's an engineer?

[sternone]

Thank you all for your reactions,

I suspect you don't mean that you were staring at a stationary prop, or for that matter even lost all power.
A briefly sticking valve (usually due to lead fouling) would seem like quite an abrupt power loss, and is not that unusual.
Other than that, maybe some kind of lean cut; water or dirt in the carburetter, or an overlean mixture due to air leak or carb adjustment.


I had a feeling that the prop was still turning, which means to me that it could be ofcorse less than 1 second... a sticking valve, does that takes down all cilinders ?? Because the engine made no sound at all anymore.. first it was simmering, but then it died...

Find another instructor.


Luckely in my new flying school i get another teacher almost every lesson.. hehe

but, did you put carb heat on? Was there a slightly higher than normal RPM reading (assuming you were on full power on the climb out) if you did? How long was the carb heat on for before you closed it on short final?

Carb heat was on from beginning base to short final..what is that 3 minutes ? but i tought icing was not so common with full power ?? it was at least running at full power for 30 seconds ?

Must be fuel.

Auch :eek:

Could be that the engine more or less "choked" for a second from too much fuel

It was at least minimum 30 seconds after i applied full power, is that choking still possible then ??

I'd be guessing at fuel/fuel contamination.

I really really always drain very very good, also the drainer on the bottom of the fuselage, wich many people seem to forget to be there in a 152, that's were mostly the nasty stuff come out of it !! (and no i do not mean pulling the handle next to the oil check, i mean going on the floor and using the drainer!!!)

[slim_slag]

It's not normal for 'nasty stuff' to come out.

Do you drain the gascolator first? If you do, you can drag nasty stuff down from the tanks into the pipes, and this can reach the engine at embarrasing times. When you drain the wing tanks you don't see the muck because it's down in the pipes from when you drained below. Sort of poorly explained but you get the picture. You should always drain the tanks first.

[A and C]

If I owned this 152 the fuel filters would be checked and the Fuel system would be drained from the drain point (under the and slightly FWD of the tank shut off valve) this is the lowest part of the fuel system and the most likely place to find any dirt._

[ericferret]

A sticking inlet valve might well cause a power drop. As the piston attempts to compress the mixture it feels no resistance and drives the mixture back down the inlet tube and disrupts the carburettor air flow.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'm surprised you say that, Gertie. The better instructors where you and I fly wouldn't have opened their eyes in a second, let alone their mouths.
Yes indeed, see my more considered second post.

The point is, we wouldn't expect them to say anything for a second or so, provided we'd already done the right thing and shoved the nose down, but we would expect them to know what to say, which the OP was suggesting was not the case (without explaining the reasoning behind this diagnosis).

[kiwi chick]

Sorry, Slim Slag, but

and then only if you have time, which at 300ft AGL is not going to happen. I also think it been shown it takes about five seconds for the brain to actually realise something is wrong and start to do something about it, and that is during check outs where the pilot is expecting something.

I totally disagree with this - I wouldn't be alive otherwise.

It may take 5 seconds for the bodily functions to misbehave, but the brain is well and truly going ;)

[slim_slag]

So what happened? (more interested in the aviation aspects, not physiological :))

[david viewing]

We often hear about 'sticking valves'.

Why would a stuck valve close again after a brief interval and then work normally? Why doesn't it stick and stay that way? Is it because the stem cools?

Just wondering.

[david viewing]

Thanks, that's understood. But if it reset on the next cycle that would be about a 50 msec interruption, not the 1 sec outage which is the sort of period we seem to hear about.
Does something else come into play, like turbulence in the inlet manifold mentioned above, to extend the period into a recognisable timescale?

[kiwi chick]

Slim Slag

Spinny thing stopped spinning about 200 ft AGL during go round. EFATO practice. :ooh:

Lot of fresh beef available in the area that night. :E

Sure you don't want to hear about my laundry bill...?! :}

[er340790]

May well be the above.

Same happened to me during simulated Emergency Landing on my US check-ride in a v.old PA-28. After a week or so flying the same a/c, I'd got used to it, but it certainly drew the examiner's full attention at 200AGL.

He said later how impressed he was with my prompt diagnosis!!!:ok:

[kiwi chick]

er340790 - were you meaning me?

No it definitely wasn't the above... it was the student turning the fuel off. Tends to grind engines to a halt.

KC

[slim_slag]

Slim Slag

Spinny thing stopped spinning about 200 ft AGL during go round. EFATO practice. :ooh:That would grab your attention, no choice but to prepare to land ahead, and not much time to decide where.

I cannot find a reference to my 'about five seconds' which would stand up in the court of PPrune. I'm sure I read it somewhere on a simulator study done on how to properly conduct a turn back. Anyway, I did find that the authorities require a two seconds reaction time for airline pilots to add to their calculations when working out runway speeds. So as there are two of them, and they are trained to concentrate on these things, I cannot see a PPL doing better - on average.

Though I do think pushing the stick hard forward is probably instinctive when things go wrong as it is drummed into you with stalls practice. Whether that is the correct thing to do at 200ft AGL when the engine stops? Will have to think about that....

[camlobe]

Crossing from St Mary's to Lands End a couple of years back. Half way across and the engine went quiet...then carried on as if nothing had happened. Totally focused my attention. Total time of silence, about one second even though it seemed like 10. Drained the carb on landing (they all have a drain plug) and found a small droplet of water. This was after doing a full fuel drain check prior to departure.

I have heard of this happening before but it was my first time.

And the chap sitting beside me, who happens to the the local CFI (non-instructional trip) said nothing...for about 1.5 seconds. What he and I did say is not reproducable here, but I am sure imagination will suffice.

camlobe

[sternone]

I believe more and more that i had some small water instead of icing.... i guess we can never drain some water away ??

I always drain extensivly....doesn't seem to help quite enough...

[Will88]

I suspect the heather in the carb might have something to do with it :}

[MSP Aviation]

Stern,

What fuel drain are you talking about other than the wing sumps and the strainer next to the oil filler neck? Is there in the fuselage under the engine?

[ericferret]

150/152 have a drain on the centreline approx beneath the pilots seats.

You need a spanner to open it and in reality it is a maintenance drain not a water drain.

[sternone]

What fuel drain are you talking about other than the wing sumps and the strainer next to the oil filler neck? Is there in the fuselage under the engine?

Well you have one on the bottom of the fuselage,

You need a spanner to open it and in reality it is a maintenance drain not a water drain.


Oh, i just drain it everytime just with my normal fuel drainer, are you sure we are talking about the same one ?

[spitfires rule]

Same here, I always drain the one on the fuselage as well.

[Pilot DAR]

draccent,

Which of the maintenance procedures specified by Lycoming would you feel constitutes a "full once over"? Would it be prudent to also examine the aircraft fuel system?

How much money would you propose that the aircraft operator spend to assess this momentary loss of power?

Would it perhaps be more effective to just replace the engine with a new one to be sure?

So as to offer a little assurance, I can tell you that the 152 can be safely flown and landed under power with any one of it's 8 spark plugs not operating, either of it's two magnetos not operating, any one of it's four exhaust valves stuck slightly open, or a 25% blockage in the fuel system.

My money's on the exhaust valve on this one.....

Pilot DAR

[ericferret]

Not all aircraft have a drainable valve at the fuselage location.

On our aircraft it is a plug locked by a locking plate.

This is also shown as the correct configuration in the IPC (parts catalogue)

[kiwi chick]

Yeah, I don't recall seeing one of those on any of the 152s I flew??