hours building

[A330 Dreamer]

Has anyone ever went hour building in Canada?

If so could you recommend somewhere to go?
also is it the same as hour building in the states where you need to send off the paperwork approx.90 days before arrival to get tempo issue of a canadian licence?

Regards

looking to do roughly 30 hours wherever chose to go eventually.

[A and C]

Inexpensive hours are closer to home than you think and cheap hours are never as cheap as they seem !

Check your PM's for a realisticly priced hours building deal.

[nomad_07]

Hi A330 Dreamer,

I went to California to do my hour building in July/August of this year. I researched the Canadian option but it was not easy, I emailed Harvsair, Toronto Airways and Moncton Flight College, but the response was not very clear from any of them, I even called Toronto airways but they were extrmely unclear, I dont think that they get many hour builders there. Moncton do get more as they are Cabair affiliated, but do you want to be hour building where there are hundreds of commercial students who will take priority? The flying worked out to be a lot more expensive (roughly £10 an hour more) in Canada compared to the US because of the current exchange rate.

Obviously if you want to go to Canada thats your perogative, but make sure that the school you are going to have the aircraft you want to fly available, and ask how available it will be for your use whilst there?

I did 70 hours in Oxnard with Aviation PAcific and would strongly recommend them, I paid $9300 for 70 hours including 5 hours dual instruction, homestay accommodation, a jeep for my use whilst I was there, and pick up and drop off from LAX. This was on a PA-28 (Cherokee), which was for my sole use whilst I was there. You can get cheaper in the US, but it is rare to have a total package at such a price and to have an aircraft for your use only.

On another note about hour building in general, I found that the cost was roughly the same for a lot of countires once you factor in the various differences in flights to get there and the exchange rate. For me, the US is the best, its great for hour building. The validation of a foreign licence can indeed take up to 90 days, but mine took two and a half weeks, which is about the norm. Obviously going to do your hours in France or Spain will mean no licence vlaidation if you have a JAA licence, but the flying rental will not be cheap - I found places in France that were cheapish, but still not as cheap as the US even once you have factored in flights and accommodation. Weather could be an issue too. Spain is not cheap as you pay 16% VAT on the rental costs. I know you can get cheap rental rates in this country, but remember to factor in the landing fees which really mount up if you actually want to go places, and obviously the atrocious weather at the moment!

Good luck with your decision!

[Longfinals]

having been to the US on 2-3 occasions to hour build i would strongly recommend it. No landing fees, people are really friendly and deals can be found. I even teamed up with some other pilots at the flight school and we went off exploring in 1 a/c sharing flying duties.

If you want to stay away from base on 1 or 2 nights then Best Western do deals for pilots usally about $35/night for a room, get the FBO to call them.

Good luck

[thornycactus]

I went to California to do my hour building in July/August of this year. I researched the Canadian option but it was not easy, I emailed Harvsair, Toronto Airways and Moncton Flight College, but the response was not very clear from any of them, I even called Toronto airways but they were extrmely unclear, I dont think that they get many hour builders there. Moncton do get more as they are Cabair affiliated, but do you want to be hour building where there are hundreds of commercial students who will take priority? The flying worked out to be a lot more expensive (roughly £10 an hour more) in Canada compared to the US because of the current exchange rate.
Do you know it was 'unclear'? These schools are unlikely to entertain people coming for time building!

These schools are flooded with potentially rich students from India! Yes, Indians everywhere and Indians flooded these flying schools! :DThe flying schools rather accept full course paying ($$$) students than people paying peanuts flying for time building.

[thornycactus]

http://d.yimg.com/ca.yimg.com/p/070815/afp/isgelde80150807203321photo00.jpg

See the picture above?

Now, eversince these two leaders met, the barrier entry to U.S. for Indians has been lifted.

Now, Indian Nationals are everywhere in United States. They almost filled up the flying schools in U.S.

[NavPilot]

having been to the US on 2-3 occasions to hour build i would strongly recommend it. No landing fees, people are really friendly and deals can be found. I even teamed up with some other pilots at the flight school and we went off exploring in 1 a/c sharing flying duties.


No landing fees....for how much longer...?!:(
It's only a matter of time...

[FlyingForFun]

I went to California to do my hour building in July/August of this year. I researched the Canadian option but it was not easy, I emailed Harvsair, Toronto Airways and Moncton Flight College, but the response was not very clear from any of them, I even called Toronto airways but they were extrmely unclearDon't forget that you can do your hour-building with anyschool or flying club, or even buy your own aircraft. You do not need to do it with an "approved" school, or with a school which has any prior experience of hour-builders, so long as the school you are going to has the aircraft you want and can give you the hours you need.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your Canada question, but why not try contacting some Canadian PPL schools. My experience (as a customer of, and an instructor working for, a number of different schools) is that many PPL schools are happy for renters to fly their aircraft, because that's what most PPLs do after they finish their training, whereas commercially-oriented schools often need their aircraft for their commercial training. I'm not surprised Nomad didn't have a good response from the schools he contacted. I would expect a good PPL school to give you an accurate answer to the licensing question, quote a price (both dual and solo, because you will need some dual to get checked out first), and recommend some good places to go to.

Remember the most important part of hour-building - have fun!

FFF
-----------------

[NavPilot]

Remember the most important part of hour-building - have fun!

Very very good point you make FFF. Most hour builders (the pre-CPL ones :oh:), quite forget this. I went about time building until, an instructor told me whilst preflight planning a Xcrty, "fly as long as you can ! just keep clocking it in ! " Thankfully I wasn't too far into my time building, and realised exactly what NOT to do !:ok:
Thereon it was always different routes,different terrain, to different places...smaller unmanned fields, sometimes unkempt paved runways with huge tufts of grass well beyond threshold:eek:...
I'd throw-in a bit time building in different countries too, if you have the option.
A330 Dreamer, if you're still keen on time building in Canada, send me a PM...

And again, re-iterating what FFF said, enjoy it! you'll miss it !!

[newpilot83]

Nomad 07 ,
I would like some advise on Aviation Pacific at Oxnard Airport, CA for a Professional Pilot flying programme.. I am enrolled there through UKFT, which has been cautioned in these forums.. I really dont have time and need to make a quick decision whether to go for it or not.. so pls help! :sad:

[A and C]

It is a very strange thing about the British, they are always running the UK down and think that they are getting ripped off. The result is that a lot of you who have this ingrained attitude are about to go to the USA/Canada and spend more money on hours building than you would in the UK.

The price per hour in the UK is very compeditive with the USA if you include all the costs (hotels, car rental, airline tickets, travel insurance etc) and with a few trips to France or the Channel Islands you can drive the price down to well below the price in the USA.

The simple fact is that most of you guys are not "doing the numbers" before rushing off to the states.

All of what I have said above assumes that you get to find a good aircraft rental company, a lot of you wont! Most of my customers have been to the USA and have failed to get the flying that they expected done, this happens all to often and now you are paying for some very expensive hours with little chance of recovering any of the costs apart from the aircraft rental.

There are hour building deals to be had in the UK so why not support you home industry and save money at the same time?

[Flying surfer]

i would disagree with A and C. In the Uk you have to do loads of hours 80+ to even come close to saving any money spent in the US.

The beauty of the US is being able to do as many approaches, practice ILS, landings knowing that you aren't going to have to pay a single penny towards it. No landing or approach fees unlike the UK, good weather most of the time and easy to fly virtually anywhere. Lotsof info on every airfield and a top class service.

I did my training the UK but now fly in the US whenever i can as i can;t afford to do more than 15-20 hours in the UK or Europe whilst flying in the US i pay a fraction of the price and get to do 40 hrs + in 2 weeks that i spend there every year - 18 months

[TelBoy]

In my view the US is a great place to fly (yes I am an FAA licence holder:)).

In the UK we get drawn into the US schools that offer training to foriegn students and are approved by the US immigration to off I20 for your M1 visa. These schools charge a "premium". If you are hour building only, then you can go to the US on visa waiver and "fly for fun". Provided you have the FAA licence, just look at local rentals from clubs that have probably never even seen an Englishman. The deals you will get will AMAZE you.

Happy flying all.

[WannaBeBiggles]

If your hour building for your CPL or want more command time for an airline gig in Europe I don't think it would be valuable for yourself because the airspace in Europe is different to the US and really if you want those hours to count as something more than a little bit of ink in your log book and a little more stick and rudder skill, then I would advise you invest that little bit of extra money in yourself (and your career) and fly in the UK/EU.

Just my two cents.

[worldpilot]

Hour building in the US is something I will recommend though. It is much more cheaper. Here is an example equation.

It cost me between 250-280 Euros to rent a Cirrus SR20. Thats 12500-14000 for 50 hours. In the US, the same aircraft cost me 200 $ per hour. At the current exchange rate, thats a damm good deal. With the US rate, you still have enough cash to do some sight seeing and enjoying yourself.

WP

[A and C]

The only way that I can reply to the likes of flying surfer and the others is to tell it like it is and this is going to sound like some sort of advert, this might be a bit close to the rules on pprune but as it is a direct reply to some of the posts above I shall try.

My company is in the business of leasing high quality aircraft (C152) for hours builders these aircraft are well maintaned with modern radios and low time engines, and in a condition well above anything that you will find in most UK flying clubs.

The aircraft are leased for an agreed number of hours to be flown within a time period (usualy 40 hours in two weeks) the price is between £40-42/flying hour +VAT dry dependant on contracted hours.

All the landing, parking and fuel bills are coverd by the pilot so he faster the hours are flown the better the deal as this reduces the fixed cost in terms of parking and landing fees.

My customers tell me that the true full cost of hours building this way is about £60-62/ log book hour. This can be reduced to IRO £55 if you fly abroad and use duty free fuel!

As flight safety is paramount the contract covers the probability of some days being lost to the european weather and the company will offer a refund or alternative lease days (at customer preferance) to cover bad weather so as to not put pressure on pilots to fly if the weather is to bad.

Because the customer can base the aircraft at the airfield of his choice hotel & car hire fees are avoided and the aircraft is avalable to the customer at all times.

I have flown in the USA and if you find a good company to rent from it is a very good deal however as I found to my cost the good companys with well maintanerd aircraft that are actualy avalble to fly wil not be charging the bargain basment prices that people seem to quote in these forums.

Also The weather in USA is not as good as some might have you think, if you factor your fixed costs (hotel+car hire+airline ticket and divide that by the number of days in the USA) you will find that it is well above the cost of a lost day with one of my aircraft (about £12/night parking).

I did my FAA CPL/Multi/IR in the USA at a very low cost but I was working in the USA at the time and could afford the time to look around , this proved to be vital as the first two opperators that I aranged to fly with could not supply the aircraft that they agreed to! I did finaly find a very good flight school but the cost was $50/hour above the headline rate of the adverts that you see in the european flying rags. however had I been on a three week hoilday and not a three month work placement I would have failed to get anything done despite booking ahead.



In conclusion the USA can be a very good place to fly but it is not as cheap and risk free as some would have you think, about 50% of my customers have been to the USA and for one reason or another faild to achive there objectives.

Please remember that there is a UK alternative to the USA and cost the hour building reaisticly before parting with your hard won cash!

[Finals19]

Hour building in Canada - very straightforward, and attractive rates too...

To fly in Canada, you need a foreign licence validation, which is obtainable from the local Transport Canada office for about $60. You will likely need a letter from the club / school too. More information here:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part4/Standards/421.htm#421_07

I would strongly recommend British Columbia - Vancouver and the Lower mainland (the valley that leads in from the ocean to the mountains) Pretty much a full ATC service, good radar coverage and in the busier areas (around YVR and south Vancouver Island) you're mixing it with the big boys, which is good ATC practice. Mountains rising up all around, so in good wx some stunning moutain flying to be had, although you will need a moutain check ride to venture outside the lower mainland.

Current rate for a C172 is about C$150/hr all in, so about £69/hr. No landing fees, except at CYVR International, but why go there in a 172 anyway!

Main GA airport is CZBB Boundary Bay, about 18 miles south of Vancouver. Two hard runways, full ATC, even a VOR/DME approach.

Schools / Clubs worth considering...

Pro IFR (Beech Duchess, C152, C172, Citabria)

www.profir.com

Pacific Flying Club (C172, C152, 1xPA28, PA34 Seneca)

www.pacificflying.com

Flying generally slightly less Americanised and very friendly people are the Canadians!

[Flying surfer]

i do have to side some what with A and C as much of the flying that I've done in the US has been on tatty high hour a/c with limited radios and bit that fell off them once in a while :)

For a low time pilot the US offers a good startign point in a GA friendly enviroment and air traffic controllers are more than helpful especially if one is a bit nervous on the radio (like i was in the beginning and i'sure many people are).

But if you want quality flying time, having to plan rather than jump in and decide in the air and adherence to good RT practice then the UK is the place to fly. If you can Fly in the UK you can probably fly anywhere. Its like sailing if you can sail in the English channel with all the shipping, tides, currents then you can sail anywhere, how lucky are we.

[A and C]

So you go to Canada and fly for £69/hour and you think it's a good deal?

Please tell me how this is a good deal when my customers tell me that the true and full cost including parking, landing fees & fuel runs at about £60-62/hour (and £7/hour less if you fly abroad and get the fuel drawback).

Yes it's a 152 not a 172 but the objective is to build the hours not fly 4 people around!

The fact is as a way as a cost effective way to quickly build hours towards a CPL your numbers don't add up and that is before you factor in airline tickets and hotels.

[FougaMagister]

I did hour building in Florida (50-60 hrs) right after PPL, then a year later in France (30 hrs) to round up P1 hrs before CPL, then in SA during CPL. Also flew in Canada (last year) on a flying holiday.

I'd say flying IS cheaper on the other side of the pond (a Warrior for my sole use for a week priced at 50 quid/hr wet in Canada), SA was dead cheap (a Warrior III for 50 quid/hr wet, but the Rand has appreciated considerably against Sterling since then). There are hardly any landing or approach fees in the US, Canada or SA, but as has been mentioned, one must factor in the cost of the trip and accommodation etc. for the duration.

So for a limited amount like 30 hrs, I'd rather recommend to look closer, to France (where local aeroclubs are non-for-profit associations who are not subject to VAT therefore don't charge it, and where landing fees are not too common and not applicable at the base airfield. End result: flying is 25% cheaper).

Then again, you can go to a UK club and tell them: "I need to build up 30 hrs in 10 days on your Cessna/Cherokee/Robin etc. What discount are you willing to do?" If they don't play ball, walk away. I bet they'll catch you before you leave the airfield! :E

[LH2]

I have to give my vote to France & Spain as an option for hour building.

I have never flown in the States so I don't know what it's like over there and therefore I will not get into a discussion over whether it is better here or there.

However, I think you would do well to listen to what the likes of A & C and FougaMagister are telling you. I for one pay between €90 for a PA-18 and €117 for a C172K. Most small aerodromes do not charge for landing fees in either France or Spain, and most smaller airports either do not charge for approaches or charge a set fee above a certain number of them. Not sure if accommodation in general is cheaper in the US, but plenty of airfields in France where you can pitch your camping tent under the wing. Some places have special accommodation for pilots where you pay what you feel like to cover the cost of your stay (€5 is fine, although I'm not that tight and prefer to leave a bit more).

One difference I can see is, it seems to me, the State-side options are more like served on a plate, whereas you have to do your own research on the continental options. Plus you've got language issues to deal with as well, but hey, good practise for when you're landing in, say, Palma and have to get the message across to the fire brigade that your engine is in fact not on fire :}

And remember, whatever you do, it's not worth doing unless it's going to be fun. :ok: