Hello? ML Centre? Yoohoo! Anyone home? [Archive]

west atc

19th Sep 2007, 00:09

Last night won't be the last time TIBA procedures will happen either. The only way it doesn't happen more often is by the goodwill of the controllers being willing to work incredible amounts of overtime. The money is nice for a while but eventually you have to be able to have some kind of life.

There has been warnings from staff that this would happen but it seems that it is cheaper to run rosters tight and cover gaps with overtime than it is to have enough staff to cover emergencies.

Cap'n Bloggs, I can understand your frustration about the frequencies being combined but they need to monitored in case of emergency and there are not enough bodies around to monitor more than one console. Of course there's not a lot we can do about aircraft transmitting on the wrong freq!

SmokingHole

19th Sep 2007, 00:52

The money is nice for a while

Surely this is a nice fat carrot to attract people to the industry as controllers. So why the shortage of staff? Lack of recruitment?

Capn Bloggs - I also heard the said citation making calls on the wrong freq. I'd like to think by the time I was driving something that shiny, I'd have the comms sussed.:hmm:

SM4 Pirate

19th Sep 2007, 01:07

So why the shortage of staff? Lack of recruitment? No shortage of suitable applicants, massive desire by the provider to not recruit on the basis that new technology (thus staff reductions) will out perform the retirements rate. Let's not mention new facilities/extra sectors required due to the increases in traffic; especially in WA.

Come the revolution; when G is G ie no service then we will have heaps too many. The big restructure that is going on right now is to shift as much cost as can be found into the "Regional Services" arm; thus the Cost Benefit Analysis when conducted will clearly show that the cost of service provision far exceeds any safety benefit. Factor in a little E corridor here and there to absolve the issues and hey presto no issues left and massive staff/costs reductions.

Good side is that when the bills are all accounted for RS will cost probably somewhere near $250M per year; RS is Flight service + some towers, right? So the RHS claim of reducing the FIS bill may just blow up; the cost has gone up heaps; but I suspect we all knew that anyway.

Meanwhile, ATCs should stop feeling guilty about staying home (get a life) on their days off and the problem may actually get addressed as opposed to being lifted into the OT bucket; where we can blame sick-leave for the increase; time to counsel those naughty sick-leave abusers.:\

SmokingHole

19th Sep 2007, 02:09

increases in traffic; especially in WA.

Particularly early morning and, as was the case last night, around 6pm wa time - 'peak-hour' in the desert. F100's,146's, dash8's, braz's, metros mixed in with the odd c402, c310 and pa31. All operating within a few hundred miles - nearly all heading to Perth. Same area at midday is usually a ghost-town.

Factor in a little E corridor here and there

Yep, that's what's needed. But fat chance right?

Towering Q

19th Sep 2007, 06:55

TIBA procedures

Please explain. (In my best P.Hansen voice.)

bushy

19th Sep 2007, 07:34

It's NAS procedures used by airlines when ASA can't keep their services going. (but we are not allowed to call it that)

peuce

19th Sep 2007, 07:34

Traffic Information Broadcast Area

You're on ya own! ... Anyone there? .... Anyone there now?

Chief galah

19th Sep 2007, 08:06

It appears to me that E corridors are labour intensive.
How will they alleviate the problem?

Roger Copy Ta

19th Sep 2007, 08:17

Usually give it a wide berth if it's anywhere near me.
Given that those position reports are likely to be miles out or even east instead of west, you might be better off keeping as close as possible! :} At least you can be fairly sure where they aren't!

Howard Hughes

19th Sep 2007, 08:32

Traffic Information Broadcast Area

You're on ya own! ... Anyone there? .... Anyone there now?
I'm over here, so stay outta my way...;)

Capt Wally

19th Sep 2007, 10:10

....'smoking hole'.............it's often the guys/gals in the 'shinny planes' that make the icorrect RT calls........121.5 is at time a joke with not only fingered troubled calls but general 'chit chat' !.........& these pilots are meant to be at the end of the professional tree !.........still humans will always act first, then think !
Restructuring............that word is now rife in all industries.........more work for less staff !

............Capt Wally :-)

boree3

19th Sep 2007, 10:55

TIBA procedures?
"Yer on yer own" mate!
A word of caution though. A supervisor may be monitoring the frequencies for any emergency calls so mind your P`s and Q`s...

fujii

20th Sep 2007, 00:10

From the ATC manual (MATS)

Traffic Information Broadcasts by Aircraft (TIBA): A procedure that permits the transmission of reports and relevant supplementary information by pilots to provide information to other aircraft in the vicinity when no air traffic services are available in a given airspace.

JackoSchitt

20th Sep 2007, 21:16

Seeing as most pilots would have, or can at least access (via AA web site), AIP instead of MATS....

AIP GEN 3.3 - 18, 4 Contingency Procedures - Air Traffic Services Temporarily Not available ; and ,

AIP GEN 3.3 - 21, 5 Traffic Information Broadcast By Aircraft (TIBA)

would appear to be more relevant references for the wider community and go beyond the mere definition listed in MATS.

Jamitupyr

10th Oct 2007, 23:25

A mate in the know told me that MEL Centre went TIBA for much of the Goldfields, Pilbara and Central West on the Low sectors last night.

Apparently NOTAMs were issued, but it may have caught some guys/gals off guard when they taxied and/or arrived to learn from Flightwatch (who at least were still staffed) that there was NO ATC service in the Class G airspace.

Some seemed to think that they had a continuous Sarwatch even though ATC were not providing same. A few figured it out to nominate a Sartime to be held in CENSAR and managed by Flightwatch.

The word in the ATC circles that this is likely to happen again on an increasing basis due to their staff shortages. Flightwatch is also pretty short staffed. It probably won't be long til they are on contingency at the same time as ATC.

I wonder what the insurance angle is for this scenario?

BrazDriver

11th Oct 2007, 03:24

The ATIS last night said there was greater seperation between aircraft too. Must be the flow on effect.

Counter-rotation

11th Oct 2007, 04:18

This SAR thing has got me interested!

Let me ask you -

1) I'm in an IFR turbo prop cruising higher than FL180
2) the TIBA is only "G" airspace below
3) in my last position report prior to descent, I advised my estimate for arrival at the destination
4) I was never told "Sarwatch Terminated"

Do I have SAR coverage to my destination? Or upon entering TIBA airspace on descent, is my SAR coverage terminated?

CR :confused:

SM4 Pirate

11th Oct 2007, 05:52

I would suggest that being told that "TIBA procedures apply, frequency change approved" would indicate SARWATCH Terminated; if it were at high levels in CTA on the "Otherside" you have to contact the next unit all by yourself and get your onwards clearance, is it any different in terms of SARWATCH?

43Inches

11th Oct 2007, 07:02

Interested also in what exactly happens to SARWATCH in this TIBA area due to lack of ATC.
The way I understand it is that an RPT or CHT aircraft under the IFR must have continuous capability to contact ATS (or the provision of trained ground company personel etc..). I'm assuming aircraft could still contact ATS via HF whilst in these areas or was HF unavailable too?
Also SARWATCH can not be terminated without a specific exchange, it's not just left to an assumption!

Capt Claret

11th Oct 2007, 07:58

Nominate a SARTIME prior to leaving CTA, then when contacting company inbound, brief them to call Censar when they see the aircraft roll past the terminal and use the phrase, "ABC, Paraburdoo, cancel SARtime"

peuce

11th Oct 2007, 09:02

A full SARWATCH, by its very name, requires someone to be WATCHING.
The fact that you are in TIBA airspace means that there was NO ONE available to man that position... ergo, there is no one WATCHING.

If you nominate a SARTIME for arrival at your destination, that's a different matter. That's held in the CENSAR system.

SM4 Pirate

11th Oct 2007, 10:50

43 Inches, whilst I agree with the sentiments re SARWATCH, being told “Air Traffic Services Terminated, TIBA procedures apply, Frequency change approved” would implicitly suggest to me you are now getting no service; there surely is no doubt.

From AIP Gen 3.3

A position report must be made on the next CTA/FIA frequency 15 minutes prior to leaving airspace in which TIBA procedures apply to obtain a clearance or re-establish SARWATCH on the appropriate ATS frequency.

43Inches

12th Oct 2007, 09:24

SM4, my only problem with that statement is that no positive cancellation has occured and both parties may be operating on assumptions. The pilot may assume he still has SARWATCH and the ATS operator may assume the pilot will cancel on HF. There are many places in oz where VHF coverage is lost and usualy SARWATCH requirements are arranged in these areas mutually prior to entry, ie cancel in the circuit, via relay, nominated reporting time, HF etc.. After reading the section in the AIP regarding TIBA there was no statement that SARWATCH is maintained or not, only the AIP GEN rules regarding continuous comms seems to stand out, that is VHF control is lost but some comms via HF or flightwatch must still exist there. Further query must be the question that IFR can not operate in this VHF void without HF contact? or if Flightwatch does exist then this must qualify as VHF coverage? Unfortunately I can not extrapolate an answer from what i've read so far!

SM4 Pirate

12th Oct 2007, 09:35

and the ATS operator may assume the pilot will cancel on HF Not likely, he/she just said, get off my dial you're on your own; couldn't be more clear to me. Air Traffic Services Terminated, includes SARWATCH; it's the whole shebang getting terminated.

Relating to leaving VHF coverage the is an obligation as part of the SARWATCH service to follow up with you and if necessary go through HF, mobile phones etc.; before declaring a phase; i.e. the Air Traffic Service hasn't been terminated.

I can guarantee that there will be no follow-up/phase initiated by an ATC when you enter TIBA; unless you don't acknowledge the get off my dial call.

Quokka

12th Oct 2007, 16:16

As a controller who has worked the airspace in question, I can understand the belief that the controllers have that the phrase Air Traffic Services Terminated absolves the controller and the company of any subsequent responsibility in regard to SARWATCH, however, I suspect that the legal answer would be otherwise...

Imagine said situation being examined in a court of law in Australia. Barrister for the families of the deceased questions the Airservices Australia managers and controllers along the lines of the following:

You say that a SARWATCH is an Air Traffic Service and that the phrase "Air Traffic Services Terminated indicated that the SARWATCH was terminated... can a SARWATCH be communicated to, and held by a person other than a person licensed to provide an Air Traffic Service?

Therefore the holding of a SARWATCH is a service other than an Air Traffic Service... it just happens to have been provided by an Air Traffic Controller at the time.

Did the controller who was last able to provide the SARWATCH service have a VSCS communication line to a third party service provider who, at the time, was able to assume responsibility for the provision of SARWATCH to the aircraft until such time as the SARWATCH was cancelled by the PIC?

Why didn't the controller co-ordinate the SARWATCH details to the third party provider of SARWATCH prior to terminating the Air Traffic Service?

The above summarised in three words...

Duty of Care.

tobzalp

12th Oct 2007, 21:36

Sarwatch or Sartime/flight note? We even use different words when ending them.

SM4 Pirate

12th Oct 2007, 23:03

Therefore the holding of a SARWATCH is a service other than an Air Traffic Service No it isn't. If the service is over it is over.

If a VFR was leaving CTA and you said "Air Traffic Services terminated, squawk 1 2 0 0, frequency changed approved" You have not cancelled it's SARTIME; but you have cancelled it's SARWATCH; i.e. two way comms are over and I'm not coming looking for you at my initiation.

Quokka

13th Oct 2007, 15:29

Good points, replace the word SARWATCH with Sartime and we get to the heart of the issue. The IFR service being provided to the aircraft includes both an inflight SARWATCH and a Sartime for arrival at destination.

As indicated by previous posts, the PIC of the IFR aircraft believes that whilst the inflight Air Traffic Service is no longer being provided, an IFR Sartime for arrival at destination is still being held by Airservices Australia, the last ATS unit aware of the aircrafts ETA. Why wouldn't he, they have his FPL and ETA and the ability to hold the Sartime for destination or relay it to a third party service provider prior to refusing to provide any service to the aircraft and it's occupants.

Under law, making a unilateral statement that you will no longer provide assistance to an aircraft and it's occupants does not absolve you of responsibility for that aircraft and it's occupants. The court would attempt to determine to what extent you were able to provide assistance to the aircraft and it's occupants and then apply the Reasonable Actions test to determine whether your refusal to provide such assistance was warranted or not.

Counter-rotation

13th Oct 2007, 21:26

Right, I'd like to add a bit to my previous post, which seems to have opened a can of worms, somewhat...

I have been racking my brain, trying to remember particular phraseology used, and I'm pretty sure that:

1) When we entered the TIBA airspace, it was on descent from E airspace (normal) to G airspace (where the TIBA was in force). This was via the normal "when ready leave control area descending, control services terminated". There was however no mention of "no reported IFR traffic" or "contact [some other freq.] at TOPD"

2) After landing we made the same call to HF that is always made, namely "landed Yxxx cancel SarWATCH". The reply was also as usual - "SarWATCH Terminated".

So that suggests to me that a Sarwatch for our arrival was in place. Otherwise, Flightwatch (HF) would have said they had nothing to cancel.
Also, I never heard "Air traffic services terminated" - that phrase has been used in previous posts. So perhaps there are subtle differences in the situations others are describing, to the one I experienced, and am wondering about.

I must say right now, without question - If I know I am subject to a Sarwatch, I expect to be in place

UNTIL I AM TOLD SPECIFICALLY THAT IT ISN'T

I can't find any reference to it being "implied" by any other statement, and that's not good enough. That's like having someone cancel my Sartime (if I'm operating on one of those instead) because they thought that's what I might have wanted. Mate I'll cancel it when I'm finished with it. If you want to cancel it earlier for whatever reason - you better bloody tell me you have.

As a captain of the aircraft, it is my responsibility to ensure SAR services are in place for the flight, in accordance with AIP. How do I do that? Well there are various ways, and it is a function of category and/or type of operation.

SM4 - I am curious, are you posting from a pilot or ATC point of view?

Cheers all,
CR.

peuce

13th Oct 2007, 22:03

I'm with SM4 ....
SARTIME .... held by ATS, normally for arrival at an aerodrome
FLIGHT NOTE ... can be held by anyone, normally for arraival at an aerodrome
SARWATCH ... Search And Rescue WATCH, based on continuous 2 way communications ... provided by ATS. For it to exist, there has to be an ATS Officer there, AND, you must be able to maintain 2-way continuous communications with him/her. If you are in a TIBA area, it is likely that you are only in range of the frequency that is normally guraded by that Sector Controller ... who ain't there. No one is watching your blip or ensuring that you answer all calls. A SARWATCH cannot exist.
Having said that, if you got into trouble and were able to raise another sector on the radio, they would certainly provide you with any assistance they could.

P.S. No one can hear you yell in space !:eek:

Knackers

13th Oct 2007, 22:06

I've been in ATS for 30+ years and I'm with SM4 Pirate on this. I reckon if your air traffic services are terminated then it's up to the pilot to make other SAR arrangements. (And I'd be happy to phone them through for you.)

tobzalp

14th Oct 2007, 03:08

Also TIBA procedures are there and notamed. Those are the rules. No where does it say ATC will hold SAR based on your exit. It states to contact 15 minutes prior to exit to enable SAR and stuff.

To the bloke above who said he landed in the TIBA area and cancelled SAR and HF said the right words, sounds about right. HF will cancel it then go looking for who is holding it. I personally in the reverse scenario of a VFR cancelling a Censar filed Sartime tell them to stand by until I can contact flightwatch and the they accept the cancellation. The Sartime could be held by pretty much anybody and if I know it is not me, I am not saying the magic words until I hear from the person holding it. Bad practice what HF does I feel but otherwise there would need to be much more chatter on already full frequencies.

JackoSchitt

14th Oct 2007, 06:20

Tobzalp,

Re SARTIME held by anybody.....nope.....All SARTIME are held in CENSAR for all civil aircraft nominated to all ATSUs. There is only one CENSAR system and it can be accessed by multiple people. Hell, you can even send an AFTN ARR message and you therefore don't have to know that that much.

Dealing with busy frequencies is a problem - poor coord is a bigger one.

If the single ATCer staffing multiple combined sectors - high and low - answered the intercom in a timely fashion (ie, under 5 minutes on **lots** of occaisions) then maybe the practice of holding up the pilot to merely advise "Cancel Sarwatch" could be justified.

I sure the HF people would humbly suggest that you review your own bad practices before publicly criticising them and their huge workload juggling multiple frequencies, receivers and transmitters with all calls being cold calls.

tobzalp

14th Oct 2007, 06:57

SARTIME held by anybody.....nope.....All SARTIME are held in CENSAR for all civil aircraft nominated to all ATSUs
That is incorrent.

Additionally, it is not criticism I am posting. It is just stating how it is done. It IS bad practice as I have been involved a couple of times with the HF operator calling me to cancel SAR on something I have had no details on. The phone rang up the front as I refused to read back the call sign. Why would I? the pilot thinks they cancelled, I read it to the HF guy but some dude 2 consoles over or two aisles over has it sitting on a scratch pad, the timer goes off and they go looking for him. There is no record that I cancelled it. Someone calls HF who recalls calling me and suddenly some greasy pole climber from up the front is doing their best to 'make an example' of the practice and I find myself in hot water. Sound far fetched? Well I have worked for this bunch of arseholes long enough to know better.

Sigh. Been on two weeks leave and I swing by to see what is going on and let myself get caught up in it. I disappoint myself sometimes.

JackoSchitt

14th Oct 2007, 09:57

MATS 7.2.25.1
SARTIMES are managed through a centralised SARTIME database
(CENSAR). Flight notifications addressed to CENSAR automatically have their SARTIME details placed into the database. CENSAR will alert the Flightwatch operator both when the SARTIME and the INCERFA times are reached.

MATS 7.2.25.2
CENSAR is used to manage all SARTIMEs for civil aircraft nominated to all ATSUs. CENSAR is also used to manage SARTIMEs for military aircraft nominated to all Airservices Australia ATSUs and most military units.

Pretty clear to me that is not incorrect.

If some ATCer has it written on his scratch pad and has set a "timer" and no-one other than that person can find it...then that is non-compliant with basic docuements and IS bad practice.

The officer (ATC or flightwatch for that matter) that is talking to the pilot, cancels the sarwatch or sartime. They then undertake to coordinate that cancellation to the holder of the sarwatch or sartime.

The phone would ring up the front to one of the supervisors because it is a superviors problem to sort out once the console ATC does not accept it.

What do you expect the HF operator to do? They are a relay conduit and need to acquit that responsibility and get the required acknowledgment and/or readbacks (as also specifed in MATS). If you don't want to do that, then accept that the next step up the food chain is going to get a call about it and you may be called to account.

The Flightwatch officer has no details on anything. Every call is a cold call and it must be taken on good faith that when a pilot calls to cancel SARWATCH, then such a thing exists. Waiting for some ATC running a wad of combined sectors to answer an intercom before "cancel sarwatch" is ludicrous.

Quokka

15th Oct 2007, 06:58

I can't think of a generic word or term for SARWATCH, Sartime and Flight Note, except maybe the three letters... SAR. Replace the words with whatever generic word or term that you prefer or believe to be the case for the following:

Monitoring of the safe arrival of an IFR aircraft and it's occupants at destination and action following a failure to report arrival at destination.

The purpose of this part of the debate is to discuss the responsibility and/or transfer of responsibility for SAR for IFR aircraft when Air Traffic Services are reduced or terminated due inability to provide services in part or whole.

Instead of focusing on book definitions of the words SARWATCH, Sartime and Flight Note, it would be more useful to answer the question of SAR responsibilities of Air Traffic Control prior to, and at the time of, reducing or terminating Air Traffic Services.

If you were asked the question as to why you didn't lodge a Sartime with CENSAR for IFR aircraft before terminating Air Traffic Services, given that you have a direct VSCS line to CENSAR, what would you say?

JackoSchitt

15th Oct 2007, 07:36

If you were asked the question as to why you didn't lodge a Sartime with CENSAR for IFR aircraft before terminating Air Traffic Services, given that you have a direct VSCS line to CENSAR, what would you say?

Did the pilot want a SARTIME?
Were they aware that a SARTIME was lodged on their behalf?
Did they have the capacity to contact flightwatch and cancel the SARTIME on arrival?
Do they have an alternative already organised like company rep on the ground at destination that was holding a flight note on them?

Too many open questions to work through to consider this as a matter of course.

Generic term is the heading of "SAR Alerting".

(Alerting Action is based on 1 of 4 procedures (MATS 7.2.3.1)
Nominated IFER
Required to report or who have nominated reporting schedules
nominated SARTIME
flight note or not submitted flight notification)

Choose your Procedure - Choose your Consequences

peuce

15th Oct 2007, 07:42

Quokka,

There is no disagreement on that. If a pilot ASKED you to enter a SARTIME for his arrival, before he lost contact with you, of course you would enter it. I don't think anyone is saying any different.

The question being asked is how can an ATC ensure you are maintaining 2 way comms (and thus safe), when you are out of range of his comms? I'll exagerate the scenario here so it is more obvious.

Say, you are flying along at 8000ft talking to Brisbane Centre on the Alice Springs VHF outlet 123.6 .... the next sector that he would normally pass you on to is Melbourne Centre, using the Gaffa 189.6 VHF outlet.

However, Melbourne 189.6 aren't there, they are sick. The Brisbane Controller can't talk to you on the Gaffa frequency, you will go out of range of the Alice frequency ... so, you nominate a Sartime (about 3 hours down the track) for arrival at Meeka. ASA will go looking for you if you don't arrive.

However, what about the 3 hour transit of Gaffa airspace? You DO NOT have a continuous SARWATCH on you because you can't maintain 2 way comms. You DO have a Sartime for your arrival.

What you could do is broadcast your progress on HF, so that the search area is minimised. But .. I don't believe that AusFIC have the ability/facilities/technology to provide you with a FULL SARWATCH. They don't have a screen to track you on. They don't have flight strips. All they can do is record your broadcasts on a log.

JackoSchitt

15th Oct 2007, 07:48

I don't believe that AusFIC have the ability/facilities/technology to provide you with a FULL SARWATCH. They don't have a screen to track you on. They don't have flight strips. All they can do is record your broadcasts on a log.

That is exactly the situation as of the death of Flight Service in July 2000.

...but its a better system...apparently.

The HF operator is a relay station. If there is no ATC to relay to and no facility to "hold SAR" - your on yer own.

43Inches

16th Oct 2007, 09:39

Why broadcast on HF if two way comms can be established on HF and normal SAR reports made at nominated reporting points, updated as necessary.
Also a controller does not continuously monitor an aircrafts track when outside RADAR coverage. IFR SARWATCH still exists outside of RADAR on a nominated reporting schedule(CTA or class G), this would occur over most of australia at low level.
TAAATS as i understand can display an expected position on the screen based on forecast winds, position reports etc, when outside of RADAR. I believe any ATS operator can access and zoom in on any part of aus airspace they want to from their console, not sure about the HF guys though.
Still not convinced that the assumption SARWATCH is gone with ATS is correct as reading the rules it states that "FIS and SAR Alerting services may or may not be available",

SM4 Pirate

16th Oct 2007, 10:03

DIRECTED TRAFFIC INFORMATION, FIS AND ALERTING SERVICES NORMALLY PROVIDED BY XXXX AT LOCATION(S) ARE NOT AVBL SERVICES AFFECTED:

AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES, RADAR AND DIRECTED TFC INFO, PROVIDED BY XXXX ON FREQ ZZZ.Z, YYY.YY AND XXX.XX.

TIBA (TRAFFIC INFORMATION BROADCAST BY AIRCRAFT) PROC APPLY TO IFR FLT OPR WI THE AFFECTED AIRSPACE AND ARE DETAILED IN AIP GEN 3.3 AND JEPPESEN AIRWAY MANUAL, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (SERIES AU100 AND AU1200).

FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE (FIS) AVBL FROM PILOT BRIEFING OR FLIGHTWATCH.

SARTIME-BASED ALERTING SERVICE AVBL ON REQUEST FROM FLIGHTWATCH.

WHERE AN ACFT HAS TWO VHF RADIOS, MONITOR THE TIBA AND APPROPRIATEFIA/CTAF FREQUENCY AND BROADCAST AS REQUIRED.
PILOTS OF IFR FLT MUST ALSO:

OPR IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE IFR AND DISPLAY NAVIGATION AND ANTI COLLISION LGT AT ALL TIMES.

OPR IN ACCORDANCE WITH COMMON TFC ADVISORY PROC ON THE FIA FREQ RELEVANT TO THE AREA OF OPERATION.

Seems pretty clear to me, NO SARWATCH, NO ATC, NO DTI;
FIS available from briefing or Flightwatch, SARTIMES available from Flightwatch; where is the doubt if you read your NOTAM?

peuce

16th Oct 2007, 11:04

43Inches,
SM4 is correct. It's there in black and white. However, as further explanation ...
You said : "Why broadcast on HF if two way comms can be established on HF and normal SAR reports made at nominated reporting points, updated as necessary."
Because ... FLIGHTWATCH can take your position report alright, BUT ... they can't give it to the guy whose airspace you are in ... he is off sick and the position is closed. Nor can FLIGHTWATCH check to see if you reach your next position report ... they don't have strips or screens or the facility to track you (if they did, they would be called Flight Service:)). All they can do is log the report ... in case there is a search for you later down the track. They would then do a search of all the logs for any evidence of your whereabouts.

43Inches

16th Oct 2007, 23:44

Thanks for the NOTAM, havn't seen that before and I agree it is very clear. It is hard to believe though that they quite literally throw IFR aircraft together in this area with the frequency congestion and lack of traffic information other than broadcasts (which can be overtransmitted), hopefully alot of operators out there have TCAS!

SM4 Pirate

17th Oct 2007, 00:35

It is hard to believe though that they quite literally throw IFR aircraft together in this area with the frequency congestion and lack of traffic information other than broadcasts (which can be overtransmitted) And this is why it's a real problem. ATC staffing levels are such that almost 3 times a week somewhere in the country a sector or group of sectors is going TIBA procedures. We are officially 45 operational controllers short (with 16 OS controllers in or about to enter the system), something like 8 Flightwatch operators short; right now.:mad::mad::mad:

At the rate we are poaching from the RAAF and getting people in off the street, we aren't even exceeding the retirement forecasts; so it's got to get worse before it gets better. All the while a world wide shortage is apparent and OS companies are making offers that are almost too good to refuse; the old supply and demand equation.:\

Now to make the system (and the Canberra bosses) look better they propose providing break relief, not by using TIBA procedures, but by having a "non endorsed ATC" manning the console, logging requests and calls and advising that the request will be available in XX minutes (when an endorsed controller finishes their break). Of course they will be able to respond to emergencies, they are still controllers after-all.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

It's a disgrace that ASA is even doing this, it's even worse that the regulator, CASA, seems to complicitly support them by saying nothing.:=

SM4 Pirate

18th Oct 2007, 02:57

I heard the big fat Prop on the radio (774 on the Lindy Burns show) yesterday, he was talking about the nurses in Victoria, he doesn't even know what's in his dodgy unfair laws. An interesting transcript I'm sure for anyone wanting to score points.

"Isn't it ironic that the Victorian Government is using these laws"; fact they will be fined for not using them.

"Well the nurses should be paid if they went to work"; well, no under your stupid laws when taking industrial action you can't be paid, or can't even except payment.

Even if that Industrial Action is completely trivial such as a ban on milk in their cuppa's.

If unions are so irrelevant, big fat Joe, why are you running such a hard union scare campaign?

AirNoServicesAustralia

18th Oct 2007, 04:08

Well if the number of new Aussie voices I am hearing on the coord lines to Muscat and Bahrain are anything to go by, the overseas recruitment has been a 2 way street.

To compound this problem, what does ASA think will happen once their 16 non-Aussie recruits validate, serve their time out and get their Aussie passports. I would have thought it would have been a safer bet that the recruits would stay if they were Aussie nationals returning from OS, but apparently not.

Either way, it has always been the case over here in the Gulf that ASA management practices have been Serco etc. best friend when it comes to recruitment of controllers. Half of UAE Centre is filled with Aussies almost totally due to complete ineptitude on the part of ASA management. Keep up the good work :ok:

Maggott17

18th Oct 2007, 06:47

It is not just the Controllers who are leaving in large numbers.

We have been trying to get a new approach designed for one of the airfields that our company operates into but we keep being told that AsA don't have enough staff to deliver the goods. It is costing us money to carry the extra fuel. :ugh:

Enquiries reveal that AIS has only two qualified approach design people and have not been able to recruit any additional staff or replacements. Two have resigned in the last few months and others are about to follow.