Ops - Flightdeck Communication

[ghost-rider]

Calling all flightdeck drivers ...

Be honest - what are your comments with regard to the service you receive from us ops types.

Where do we go wrong in your eyes, and how can we fix it ? (please keep this seperate from crewing/rostering issues).

[blackbox]

Are you sure you want that question answered

[ghost-rider]

Yes ! Come on Blackbox - be honest !

At least we try our hardest to give flightdeck the backup required. (not always appreciated but what the hell !)

I'd like to see them cope without us !

[Jetdriver]

Ghost Rider,

I have to say that my experience of dealing with ops has always been fine.

Usually contacting ops is to find out the status of an aircraft, such as its next destination (for fuel tankering purposes)or some other similar reason.

Occaisionally it is due to an AOG situation, and in those circumstances ops becomes the focal point for advice and information. Where that has been the case I have never found them wanting.

As Captains we are accustomed to having all our resources at arms length. It is therefore very important that when something goes seriously tits up down route, that we have a reliable point of contact. Ops is just that.

[This message has been edited by Jetdriver (edited 28 August 1999).]

[ghost-rider]

Thanks Jetdriver, it's nice to know there's one satisfied customer out there.

But what is it you come up against that really winds you up ? ( if any ? ). Is the information flow good ? Are the comms OK ? Are the flight-plan delivery systems OK etc etc? If not - where could it improve ?

What would be the ideal service provided from ops ?

[opsbod]

You heard the man boys and girls, take a bow.

[Grandad Flyer]

In general I have to say that Ops are pretty good. Problems? I think the main one is the communication side.
Ongoing problems - we write it on a return to Ops Dept, and nothing happens. Who knows where these notes go, but I don't think Ops see it!
Big problem this year? Getting re-routes to improve the slot (great) but not actually being told that the slot improvement is due to a re-route. Finding out when low level, climbing out on a SID and being given a "direct to" somewhere we haven't heard of - not a good time. It has happened quite a few times in the last few months. Then trying to get some foreign ATCer to find out and read out the whole of our route, in a strong foreign accent, can make the initial climb go much quicker.
Once we were pretty tight on fuel, as the route was longer. We ended up negotiating to avoid a tech stop.
We do carry phones on board, and a quick phone call with the basic route is much appreciated.

[ghost-rider]

We normally use an alpha or bravo c/s designator on the reroute, so the crews will know straight away that something has changed. (unless it's just a simple level drop etc)

We also ensure the handling agents have received the new rerouted plogs, and make every effort to contact the crews direct via their company mobile phones (when they switch the things on ! :-( )or via Selcall.

This is the best way we can think of ensuring that crews don't get confused on calling for clearance !

[Grandad Flyer]

That is a good idea, but we usually use Charlie or Delta on our flights. We have had a complete change of flight number before, which is always a good clue to a change of route.
I think I might suggest to our Ops Dept that they change part of the flight number so we know it is a re-route as I feel it is only a matter of time before we have to tech stop due to a longer re-route being discovered once airborne.

[ghost-rider]

The only downside to using c/s prefixes is that you have to refile the entire flightplan - you can't 'change' the original.

This means you become a 'late filer' and are effectively at the back of the queue for a decent slot.

[Cookie Monster]

Generally good.

But someone in Ops shocked me by saying "I don't know, why don't you call "(the handling agent)"? when I asked him where the a/c was and what time it was landing.

Was it a wind-up or what???

Also, re: crewing, I am not saying this is always the case, but many times I seem to get delayed something like 30 minutes only, when the a/c is actually 2 hours late, and have to go into discretion with further delay because of the crewing not delaying us properly. That is, aside from the fact that we have to sit on the ground twiddling our thumbs for a long time when we could have slept on and performed better otherwise.

[This message has been edited by Cookie Monster (edited 05 September 1999).]

[ghost-rider]

Ahh - flightcrew hours ! Love it ! When they introduce the same limitations for ops I promise to be really sympathetic towards aircrew !! :-)

Can't comment on the crewing side of things Cookie, but re the Ops 'wind-up' - we don't yet have access to the airport AMS so we can only get stand info from our handling agents. We do like to have an idea about the eta's though !!!

[opsbod]

Cookie Monster

Regarding delayed report, I can understand how you feel, but officially crewing can only delay you once anyway according to CAP371, then your duty starts at the delayed report anyway. Also I know from experience that when delaying crew I still like them at the airport in plenty of time as in short-haul we can make up time and having to wait for a crew we've delayed would be regarded as a deadly sin.

[Cookie Monster]

Opsbod,

I do see your point about not wanting to cause further delay by the FD not being there when the a/c returns. But it's so rare that 2 hours delay at the time of departure of the inbound a/c can be miraculously shrunk to 30 minutes by the time it arrives! So, what I'm saying is that it is better to delay us by let's say 1 1/2 hours in that sort of cases and not have to have us go into discretion - and having to give us longer min. rest period as well sometimes, because we report too early.

Also it really is a myth that a/c can make up a lot of time. 15 minutes maybe, but we can't just click our fingers and fly faster! Even the turnaround time has a limit because the pax don't load 10 times quicker than normal just because we're in a hurry, either. We do try to help by speeding things up, but...

[Jetdriver]

Ghostrider

I appreciate that your comment is a little tongue in cheek. However when was the last time Ops crashed killing dozens of people ?
Yet that is the very reason for the existence of Flight time limitations.

I suspect there are one or two people out there who dont have enough respect for the raison d'etre of these FTL's.

I think most of us realise the very difficult jobs the folks in crewing have in fulfilling there obligations to the companies, equally I accept that the crews sometimes fail to apply the necessary co-operation to get the job done. However I don't want a crewmember on my team who is genuinely fatigued, ill or under the weather any more than I want any serious defect to the aircraft itself.

There will always be abuses on both sides and misunderstandings which dont help anybody's arguement. However the laws in respect of fatigue and particularly FTL'S should always be taken seriously by ALL parties involved in there implementation and operation.

[quarterback]

JETDRIVER

Fully agree with your comments that FTLs are taken lightly AT YOUR PERIL!!!, and having been in this game for more years than I care to remember, I would have little, if any, respect for anyone who thought otherwise..
However, (just to heat up the melting pot a wee bit), wouldn't the crews feel that they had a safer back-up if the Ops and Crewing bods on the ground were covered by the same
legal rest minima and hours limits as those enjoyed by all of you in the "upper office"???
After all, when you've spent 12 hours doing a damned good impression of a "one-armed paper hanger", without even the chance to enjoy the tea/coffee supply that you guys get
(or even the pretty young things that bring it!!!), the grey matter between the ears is somewhat frazzled to say the least, and that
is when things are missed which can cause
a chain-reaction which ends up with the "front-seat guys" getting steamed up, and not then performing at their optimum level...
I'm not attempting to say that our mistakes
can have the catastrophic consequences that flight-crews' can, but if we on the ground are as awake and alert as we can possibly be, the service you receive can only get better????

Comments please!!!!!

[quarterback]

JETDRIVER

Fully agree with your comments that FTLs are taken lightly AT YOUR PERIL!!!, and having been in this game for more years than I care to remember, I would have little, if any, respect for anyone who thought otherwise..
However, (just to heat up the melting pot a wee bit), wouldn't the crews feel that they had a safer back-up if the Ops and Crewing bods on the ground were covered by the same
legal rest minima and hours limits as those enjoyed by all of you in the "upper office"???
After all, when you've spent 12 hours doing a damned good impression of a "one-armed paper hanger", without even the chance to enjoy the tea/coffee supply that you guys get
(or even the pretty young things that bring it!!!), the grey matter between the ears is somewhat frazzled to say the least, and that
is when things are missed which can cause
a chain-reaction which ends up with the "front-seat guys" getting steamed up, and not then performing at their optimum level...
I'm not attempting to say that our mistakes
can have the catastrophic consequences that flight-crews' can, but if we on the ground are as awake and alert as we can possibly be, the service you receive can only get better????

Comments please!!!!!

[ghost-rider]

Jetdriver,

Quarterback has summed it far more eloquently than I did.

Yes I did mean the comments tongue-in-cheek, but as said by Qb, I agree wholeheartedly why FTL is there, but also for the exact reasons mentioned by Quarterback - do you not think it would be a good idea for ops/crewing to have similar limits ?

European law (I belive) gives a maximum of 8-hr shifts - we do 12hrs! Don't get me wrong - I don't mind, I've known nothing else for the last 16 years in aviation - but your brain can only take so much ! Wibble.

Again, I agree completely about not wanting a fatigued crew member onboard. Enough can go wrong when you're fully awake, let alone totally knackered. We in ops & crewing do need to be very carefull when requesting crews go into discretion, without adding the pressure onto the crew member to go that few miles too far with regard to alertness. Point taken Jetdriver.

It's also refreshing to hear that co-operation between ops & the crew is needed to get the job done. IMHO there is far too much of an 'us and them' policy. After all - we're all trying to get the same result.



[This message has been edited by ghost-rider (edited 07 September 1999).]

[Grandad Flyer]

Ops guys - have many/ any of you jumpseated on a flight? I know some of our "local" guys do, and have found it extremely useful.

[ooooh matron]

I fly with our drivers AT LEAST twice a month. This is also usually done on MY days off. (Those that know me will vouch 4 that!!)

I have never seen any flight-deck spend any of their time in Ops, unless they want a favour of course!!

[excrewingbod]

Grandad Flyer,
Did many jumpseat rides while working in crewing/ops, a great insight into the 'other side'.
However, very rarely did the flightdeck get any insight into the ops side of things. In fact at one point the company made trainee f/os spend at least one week in ops. This was a very useful exercise and was very successful, but it very shortlived.

[Grandad Flyer]

I have visited our Ops and Crewing departments, both at a base far from mine, and when they weren't busy asked various questions. It was useful, but I have to admit that I felt that they didn't really want flight deck there.
I would love to have a week rostered to spend "behind the scenes" from Ops, Crewing, Handling Agents, Check-in staff, etc.
I wonder if our management would like that though? I personally think it would be very useful. I have spent a day at LATCC and that was a very useful insight.
Do any companies offer this opportunity?

[ooooh matron]

Squeezy Jet have just been through a small period where we've had too many FOs. I made the suggestion that they should spend some of their standby time in the Ops room. Our Ops MGR was up for it, the FOs were up for it. BUT IT NEVER HAPPENED!!!

It think the Chief Flying Desk was a little worried that we had better ideas than him!

[Hamrah]

I have nothing but the greatest respect for Ops and Crewing Boys and Gals. They tend to get all the crap from Handling agents, crews, their boss,etc., and generally still produce the goods.

At Go, all newly promoted Captains spend a day in OPs/Crewing, and a day on the ramp with the Go Team Supervisors, as part of their Command Course. It gives them an insight into the workload when things are going seriously pear-shaped, and reduces the level of nuisance RT/Phone calls.

Cheers

H

[ghost-rider]

We normally get a jump-seat ride as often as possible. It's really usefull to see it from the flightdeck side, ie the pre-brief, startup etc etc.
On the comment about flightdeck visits to Ops - I disagree with Oooh Matron in the fact that quite a few of the Capt's / FOs have spent time in Ops - and we've found them to be the most helpfull now they realise what goes on here. A complete 360 from what some of them were like beforehand !
Any form of cross-famil has to be a good thing IMHO.
And Grandad - flightdeck crews are welcome anytime here - I for one appreciate them taking an interest, quite apart from the fact we can get more direct feedback about reroutes etc etc.


[This message has been edited by ghost-rider (edited 15 September 1999).]

[ghost-rider]

Intersting to hear Hamrah's comments re Go. The idea of flightdeck spending a day in Ops / Crewing is excellent. Has there been a noticeable increase in co-operation ? Do the crews want to go and spend a day there ?

[Hamrah]

Ghost rider

we started doing it as part of Command courses, so the participants were usually enthusiastic. The feedback from those who have participated is so positive that many othe crew members now take the opportunity to spend time with their Ops/Crewing/Ramp colleagues.

It has produced very positive benefits for all sides, and, as a practice is to be recommended.