Citation XL Type Rating

[Spam Up]

Hello all

Im thinking of putting myself through a Citation XL TR and getting out in the Freelance market as an F/O.

My questions are ........


Am I correct in thinking that the TR will cover the XL & XLS ?
What about the Excel, is this a seperate TR ?
Who in the UK has XL's ?
Who in the UK has XL's and use's freelance F/O's ?
What would a freelance F/O be able to charge as a daily rate ?
What would a Captain's daily rate be ?
How many hrs on a type like the XL would you have to log before being considered for Captain ?
Where is the best place to do the TR and how much would it cost ?

Now :=! before I get jumped on for paying for my own type rating, please remember that I am going to do this freelance...............!

Thanks in advance for reply's


Spam Up

[lowy4sure]

there are 16 aircraft in the UK.
the rating is the same
Flight Safety is around $25,000


send my an email or post it and I can send you the list of owners

[Roja]

check you pm's

Thanks

Roja

[south coast]

Hey roja

How many hours do you have, might be easier to help answer your questions.

[Spam Up]

Got about 1200hrs, most of which is M/E turbo prop


Thanks

Spam Up

[south coast]

Spam

I reckon you would need a minimum of 500 hours on type for command, but I think your total time might not be enough.

I could be wrong, but I would think to be captain(on a free lance basis, hours probably higher than from an internal promotion) one would need in the region of 3000 hours.

[Spam Up]

I see what you mean !

I was really thinking about the the return on the money I would have to shell out on the TR, hence, how much does freelance F/O get per day.........how many hrs for command and then how much command for freelance.

So do you think there would be the work out there for a freelance XL F/O ?
Do you think there is a TR which might be more beneficial for freelance F/O work ?

Thanks for the reply South !

Spam Up

[south coast]

Spam

To be honest I dont know much about the free lance market so I couldnt advise on a particular type.

Are you only interested in free lance work, not working for a company as a full time pilot?

[Treetopflyer]

- Am I correct in thinking that the TR will cover the XL & XLS ?

Yes, with a differences course between the two (a couple hours of ground course).

- What about the Excel, is this a seperate TR ?

Excel = XL, just a matter of spelling... :8

- Who in the UK has XL's and use's freelance F/O's ?

I know at least LEA is employing freelance guys. Rath Aviation based in LFMD does as well. Gestair in Spain was recruiting recently on Excels.

[sawaya]

Ho spam up what A turn around barely a week i thought you said that you would never get a rating without a guaranteed job at the end,and you would never pay for the a rating,dear oh dear.

[Spam Up]

Yes ! but I wouldnt do the rating without first speaking to all of the companys who operate the type and ensuring I would get work !!

Also its for freelance work !!


I take it is this statement to which you refer:


'' I would be very very reluctant to go out and get myself a TR without first speaking to a few operators who may give you employment once you have spent your hard earned money. ''


Dont think this says anything about never paying for a TR.............................does it ?






Spam Up :p

[sawaya]

Well explained

[rightbank]

As far as I am aware LEA do not have any freelance F/Os. I think you might find it difficult to get a freelance position with your hours/experience. If you have 5000 hours and 2000 on type its a different story.

[eckhard]

Try European Business Jets at Cambridge. I think they have two XLS's.
Freelance F/O rate should be about £250 - £300 per day
Good luck.

[Pull Up Whoop Whoop]

Spam up - I think you will struggle to get freelance work as an FO. I work for a London based operator and we only very occasionally use a freelance captain.

To work freelance you would have to be OPC'd with EACH operator to be able to fly public transport for them (every six months), unless you can get private work, I think you will really struggle to get any work at all on this basis. There is also the problem that there is only a handful of TRE's in the country, and these are in high demand.

Solution - get a job with an XL operator, build experience, consider freelance when you have sufficient command experience. It is a small industry, and you will meet plenty of people from other operators on your travels, and it would be much easier!

With regards to the TR, go to Flightsafety Wichita, they have an XLS sim, you do your rating on this which will cover the XL, whereas Farnborough have an XL sim only.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Why Excel?

Do your pax brief on your knees like we all had to do at one time. ;)
Speak to June Spencer at Flightsafety get her to give you a great price for a Citation II type rating in Atlanta, pay in Dollars No VAT, Its Multicrew time, £1=$2 your whole expenses bill including a flight out and back should be about £1200.

Do JAA & FAA type training, do the FAA Foreign Pilot IR exam (50 q's) and have a FAA PPL issued with the 500's on it at the same time when over there.
You now have access to around 400 airframes in europe you can legally fly both on the N reg and JAA. You can reasonably expect £200 per day plus expenses as long as you dont take the piss.

Suggest you contact crosswind limits by pm who has done all this and I believe is booked onto a XL TR next month (Being paid for by somebody else )
The whole exercise could cost you about £7k, whilst there do as much free training as you can, such as Hi altitude training, RVSM training, PR Nav training, Windshear alertness training, most of its free and pads out your CV with relevant material.

Personally I'm with the don't pay for a TR brigade, however people pontificating on here about whether or not you should or shouldn't hopefully won't have any effect on whether you are actually going to do it or not(or at least I hope it won't have)

If you are going to do it, keep the costs down. Give yourself a fighting chance with your first jet, don't forget its not just about paying for it you've actually got to perform on the course and flying a lightly loaded excel at sea level is a handful to say the least (wadr comparitively to your TP)

1500 Hour commands on a C550 are possible, but you need to have you sh1t together and have been to most of the usual European Bazaars at least twice, you'll need another 500 hours MC time before they will give you your required ATPL and probably one summer and at least two full winters in the RHS. The above is an absolute minimum before even being considered for the LHS.

Excel commands require 2500hrs more often than not 3000 hours
PS LEA were advertising for mustang and C550 FO's last week why not offer to split the TR or perhaps pay for your own expenses and USA flight and get in with an operator early?

Sorry to harp on

[Spam Up]

Thanks for a very good reply ! :D

Still undecided as to what im going to do, but from the "grapevine" so far I dont think a XL TR can be beaten right now, granted it's about 11K and the courses are jam packed.

Spam Up

PS: Ive done my bit on my knees ( ooooh errrrrr ! ;))

[PicMas]

You can fly the 500 with an endorsed PPL with ME and IR, and get GBP200,- a day?

On a PPL?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

I'm not suggesting anybody does anything illegal, just that its handy to have. Dont forget that you can legally fly a N reg aircraft within the UK with your JAR license anyway with suitable permission from the DOT.

And when it comes to recurrent time with a valid 61.58 type rating you can use that type rating to have a clean FAA ATP issued at 1500hrs subject to a 60 question exam.

I reccomended the FAA PPL just as a vessel to park 7k's worth of expensive training so that when the hours requirement is met you dont need to do the training again to have a FAA ATP/Ce-500 ratings issued again.

I would never suggest that somebody works on a FAA PPL, you could however legally charge travelling expenses and a fee for operational planning and accomodation etc etc and if it worked out at around £200 I'm sure the feds wouldn't be too concerned, I'm sure if I was a CP for a private operation and was cancelling trips for the boss I wouldn't be ;)

[ExcelXLS Driver]

Hi,

I worked as a freelance FO on the XL and XLS for a number of operators. I started with 250 hrs, flying in Europe, but I had some help. With your hours you should be fine. Try Expedite Aviation, they need freelance FO's on the Excel and XLS. Only choose EBJ as your last option. Try Eurojet they have some XL's.
I used to work for EBJ and they aren't the best company to work for but if you need to build hours go for it. Any questions feel free to ask me.

it is a gamble to pay for your own rating but it is worth it. There are a lot of jobs on the Excel and XLS if you look hard enough and meeting the right people is important.