View Full Version : United Lost After Landing In Low Vis

16th Sep 2007, 14:38

Dale Hardale
17th Sep 2007, 00:37
That is scary stuff.

Full marks to the dude at the holding point to 5R who decided to sit it out until the runway status was certain. :ok:

As for ATC......:ugh:

17th Sep 2007, 00:56
Have to admit, the ATCO was given sufficient info to make it clear that a runway incursion had taken place.

Shocking that she didn't act upon it.

17th Sep 2007, 00:57
Scary indeed ! Sounds like the US Air pilot was the only one who knew what might be going on.

17th Sep 2007, 00:58
Kudos for the guys holding on 5R. I am sure they remembered Tenerife.

As for the ATC, she wouldn't be so eager to put people in the air if she was inside a cockpit.:ugh:

Once again, a ground radar would avoid this mess.:eek:

Check Six Krueger...

ray cosmic
17th Sep 2007, 02:34
Flowers for the USAir. What is it with controllers living in the past tense I cleared you for.. Such a waste of time and concentration.
Actually, listen to the other one; United 1448 Runway Incursion at Francis Green, RI.

17th Sep 2007, 02:48
Great job guys. What's up with the ATCO? Is she brain dead or just plain pushy to get planes off and away?

Btw, this really did happen to such " sky gods ". For if it had been the lowly paid aviators from the third world, the chest thumping and screaming accusations of incompetence and lack of S A would have been thunderous.

fire wall
17th Sep 2007, 04:05
This is a prime example why surface movement radar should be operational at all airports before Low Vis proceedures can be implimented.

17th Sep 2007, 04:13
It might reassure some of you to know that this recording is used during our controller training as an example of how a combination of both human and environmental factors can lead to near disaster. Very sobering indeed.

17th Sep 2007, 04:47
Just a heads up. This incident is almost 10 years old and the dipiction you are watching has been used by US ATC and airlines in training for almost as long.:)

Ignition Override
17th Sep 2007, 05:02
Was that not at (PVD) Providence, Rhode Island?

This must be from several years ago (USAir saved the day back then-maybe many lives). We were all briefed on this in recurrent training about two years ago. Was this just now discovered by people on Pprune?

Or did a nearly identical situation happen again?

Have not been for years to PVD, but along with MKE, MDW, HOU and numerous others, what a 'nice' runway layout...;)

It is a miracle that some radio calls from and to tower were not blocked, and that USAir was apparently finished with checklists, allowing them a chance to listen.

Why did the tower controller not stop all operations when such confusion happened? That might be just hindsight. Also, why do so many controllers seem to assume that we all hit each airport fairly often. Some we don't see for an interval of 12 years. Maybe PVD, HPN, YXE, PBI..or many others. A 757 avoids most of these, b.t.w., but pilots change fleets (in case ATC reads this).

17th Sep 2007, 06:45
It was in 1999 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_T._F._Green_Airport_runway_incursion

here is some info from the NTSB with even more damning ATC - the controller clears the US Airways flight twice in the midst of all the confusion..

and here is an NTSB animation

and the US Airways First Officer was given an award from ALPA

17th Sep 2007, 09:59
With the benefit of hindsight, the over assertiveness and aggressiveness of the ATC is chilling. You could hear the anxiety in the voice of the United male crew member. The controller just seemed totally focused on clearing people for take off although she had been given a false position report which exacerbated the situation.

Thank you for posting I have learned something today!

17th Sep 2007, 10:20
very similar to Linate (LIML) Italy accident in 2001, by that day is a common incident in crm courses, if you find have a look to it, it's exactly the same, but with an md82 and a c525 destroyed, and moreover with 118 fatalities!!

17th Sep 2007, 10:49
How come everytime that I hear some truly scary ATC it's from the US? Is it because they are the only ones with enough guts to put this stuff out in the open, or is it because they are pushy?

Doors to Automatic
17th Sep 2007, 11:20
What on earth the ATCO was doing clearing the USAir for take-off when she didn't have a positive fix on the United is beyond me!!

Check Airman
17th Sep 2007, 14:06
Saw this one a few months ago. The scary bit is that she clears USAir for takeoff, and assures them that United is not in their way, despite admitting that she doesn't know where United is. Don't know how the FAA manages to think it's got the greatest ATC system:ugh:

17th Sep 2007, 14:28
What on earth the ATCO was doing clearing the USAir for take-off when she didn't have a positive fix on the United is beyond me!!
In my read of what I heard, she felt that she did have knowledge of where United was, and after several exchanges was convinced that she was correct.
and as it turned out was she not right in that point:confused:

So if my read is correct this a a procedural (what level of information is necessary to make a decision) issue rather than a castigation of the controller

17th Sep 2007, 18:07
in low vis or night you need to be totally sure of the postions of a/c moving on ur field! man..thats a scary one to watch!

fatboy slim
18th Sep 2007, 09:04
Also a good reason to insist that the lunacy of speaking french at CDG is ended,

18th Sep 2007, 14:41
Someone made a comment on this which I agree... this incident is a clear example of why all of us must use English in Aviation (FYI my mother language is Spanish but I hate to hear someone talking in Spanish at an international airport)


RMarvin86 (1 week ago) (Reply)
A clear example of how important it's to listen the radio all the time. What would have happened if the UA1448 was speaking a local language with ATC? A distaster. Pilots/ATC think about it! English must be used all the time.

very scary....

Well done for UsAir...


Pugilistic Animus
18th Sep 2007, 22:59
What do you guys think of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YvjUpEHKoQ&mode=related&search=?

Ground operations are the most treacherous :(

Good folks on both sides of the freq. overtaxed by a strained outdtaed and unsafe system governed by a famous tombstone agency ---good people waiting to be destoyed no one wants this to occur but it does, there has to be a fix even one incursion is unacceptable but not totally preventable in today's evironment SMCGS, stop bars, etc. has to be implemented at ALL locations where air carrier ops take place; it IS worth the cost [i'm sure everyone agrees].
how can we bear another KLM/Pan am

I'm sure all carriers have implemented a comprehensive low visibilty taxi procedures written in all Operation specifications because now some carriers have RVR 3 operations! and with increased use of LAHSO! sounds like a disaster waiting though I pray not!

On the other side, that clip I got from youtube didn't mention if the percentage of GA included: a fair assessment then?