ground crew duty time

[enginear]

every one in the industry is well aware of flight crew duty time with rest periods and the like, is there any thing similar for ground crew, what is to stop gound crew working straight through. what is the position with some been on standby, with all the regs coming out of europe has this been addressed or is it on the individuals head to say stop.

[PhilM]

No duty times for engineers, its upto individuals and their management's judgement.

If duty time was imposed upon engineering staff, it'd be a nightmare as a fair few salaries are topped up by overtime.

[Fargoo]

Not to mention a fair few airlines relying on the goodwill of eng's working on.
Down to the individual to call time when enough is enough but not always easy to recognise yourself when fatigue is impairing your judgement :(

[Rigga]

At one airline there was a problem which, on an MOR investigation, was primarily caused by an overtired Line Engineer who had worked (or been awake) for some 18 hours when he made the said mistake.
After some debate it was decide to re-write the company policy to appease the CAA that some action had taken place.
After further debate, between management and "Quality", the policy was re-written to allow engineers working hours of no more than 24 per day.

[Kiwiconehead]

Isn't it work until you fall over - then when someone prods you, get up and keep working until you fall over again.

In Oz -no limits, work until you finish - 10 hour break, come back. However companies are becoming more conscious of the duty of care - my joint has a soft limit of 13hrs - any more must be notified to manager for approval - although realistically if you're out in the bush on a breakdown you're gonna keep going.

There was a limit when I worked in NZ where you couldn't certify after 16 hours duty but I can't remember if that was a NZCAA or company limit.

There was a study done in the UK a few years ago which made some recommendations which were pretty strict.
edit: found the link to UK study http://83.146.40.74/reports/24oct02-fatigue/avmaint-work-hours.pdf

[enginear]

this does amaze me with all the B/S coming out of EASA and the CAA and such jumping down our necks about references for this and that why are we not protected in some way. most companies will try hang you out if there is a mistake that is picked up on, i often work in excess of 14 hour days. Companies are looking at the bottom line.

[ericferret]

Every time the subject of excessive hours is raised one group of people jumps to defend the practice.

The engineers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many people see this as the only way they can achieve a decent salary i.e overtime.

One company I worked for suggested that engineers should be rostered the same as the pilots. We said this was a great idea and as licensed engineers we looked forward to being paid the same as an aircraft captain!!!!! That was the last we heard of that one.

The working hours issue is a conspiracy of silence between the engineers and operators.
It suits both groups!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr.Brown]

Money rules.
Companies hire less engineers and engineers earn more! despite saftey being paramount to all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Company's get out clause: HUMAN FACTORS.
Engineers shoud by now all have recieved human factors training. This is the industry's way of saying we don't want to hire more engineers at great expense, instead lets tell all the engineers about the dangers of working too many hours etc etc, the greedy b*****ds won't listen anyway and when something happens it's there fault because we told them so.:ok:
B****x to it Im going to do 85K this year.

[spannersatcx]

We have a limit laid down, normal shift not to be more than 12hrs, the only exception to this is in an AOG situation where we can work upto 16hrs max. Minimum rest is 11hrs between shifts.

The european working time directive is applicable if you state that you do not want to be exempt it.

A third party airline we used to handle had strict limits on what we could work and they could take us to court if we worked their a/c and had exceeded the hours (I think it was 12 or 14)

[boeing_eng]

A right can of worms this one!

Several certifying engineers at my outfit have been seeking to get clear written guidelines on the maximum hours that can be worked when certifying.

We all know what its like......You go away to fix an AOG having already worked a 12 hour shift and then work silly hours on the AOG with the commercial pressures of getting the plane back in the air bearing down on you. Tempting as it may seem to walk away from the plane after working what you may regard as enough hours, how many actually do it?! (leaving the punters stranded whilst you rest plus the added knock on disruption to the flying program etc etc)

Its time companies are forced to limit working hours (especially for certifying staff) However, as others have said, it still suits many to work silly hours for money purposes and whilst there are those prepared to do this, companies are bound to take advantage!

BE

[spannersatcx]

If you are in the UK then there is a law, it is AN 47.

The corporate management of all approved maintenance organisations are required to review this Airworthiness Notice and implement suitable policies and procedures to make all maintenance staff aware of them. The requirements of Articles 18(7) and 18(8) of the Air Navigation Order (2005) as amended, in addition to an understanding of the requirements placed upon the UK CAA within Part 66.B.500, fall on those who
certify the completion of maintenance. The guidance material contained in this Airworthiness Notice is equally applicable to all non-licensed personnel engaged in aircraft maintenance tasks and in principle should be adopted throughout the aviation industry as a code of practice. Organisations shall also take note of items in paragraph 3 which require their participation in the areas concerned.

3 Guidance
3.1 Fitness In most professions there is a duty of care by the individual to assess their own fitness to carry out professional duties. This has been a legal requirement for some time for doctors, flight crew members and air traffic controllers. Licensed aircraft maintenance engineers are also now required by law to take a similar professional attitude.
Cases of subtle physical or mental illness may not always be apparent to the individual but as engineers often work as a member of a team any sub-standard performance or unusual behaviour should be quickly noticed by colleagues or supervisors who should notify management so that appropriate support and counselling action can be taken. In particular, a decrease in mental fitness in many cases may be related to stress from within the working environment or to the personal circumstances of the
individual. Instances of aggressive behaviour, vagueness and slippage of personal standards (cleanliness, appearance etc.) may be indicative of more serious mental issues. Such issues may bring into question the ability of the individual to be trusted or to maintain the necessary levels of concentration to take appropriate decisions on airworthiness matters.
3.2 Fatigue Tiredness and fatigue can adversely affect performance. Excessive hours of duty and shift working, particularly with multiple shift periods or additional overtime, can lead to problems. Whilst the safety management aspects of these matters are being addressed through the UK Operators Technical Group individuals should be fully aware of the dangers of impaired performance due to these factors and of their personal responsibilities.
3.3 Stress Everyone is subject to various stresses in their life and work. Stress can often be stimulating and beneficial but prolonged exposure to chronic stress (high levels or differing stress factors) can produce strain and cause performance to suffer allowing mistakes to occur.
Stress factors can be varied, physical – e.g. heat, cold, humidity, noise, vibration; they can be due to ill-health or worries about possible ill-health; from problems outside the workplace – e.g. bereavements, domestic upsets, financial or legal difficulties. A stress problem can manifest itself by signs of irritability, forgetfulness, sickness absence, mistakes, or alcohol or drug abuse. Management have a duty to identify individuals who may be suffering from stress and to minimise workplace stresses.
Individual cases can be helped by sympathetic and skilful counselling which allows a return to effective work and licensed duties.

Been there, done it and used it. (HKAR's are the same as UK)

[Kiwiconehead]

Theres a percieved and sometimes real pressure on many engineers to push themselves past their bodily limits to 'go the extra mile' in an AOG situation rather than be seen to be a rebel or troublemaker by resting when they ought to.
Therein lies the problem - most of us engineers will invariably "do the right thing" when confronted with an AOG situation - but the cost on our bodies can be expensive.

Another danger is the trip home after these sort of shifts - usually the adrenaline keeps me going until the job is done but then find myself nodding off on the shuttle bus to the carpark.

My company is pretty good with trying to get relief staff on site or standing down people after long shifts but still when they ask if you can stay it's hard to say no - just because it's what we do.

[Mr.Brown]

I for one would love to see a body like the ALAE push for such legislation....
I agree totally, In this age of accountants making most of the decision's safety appears to have dropped down in priority. It would be great if the ALAE would voice our concerns over the working hours issue.

[boeing_eng]

Legislation is needed (as it will take this to stop companies singling out those who are not prepared to work excessive hours)

AWN47 is simply a list of guidelines....nothing more!

Currently, for every engineer prepared to make a stand and not work excessive hours, there's at least one other :mad: who will happily jump at the chance to work a Ghoster for dosh purposes (plus possibly being stood down for the next shift!!) As it stands in many companies now, you're better thought of by management if you're prepared to work Ghosters!!

BE

[ericferret]

Doing unsheduled overtime to solve a crisis or controlled amounts of scheduled overtime is one thing. However I know of one UK operator where engineers have been allowed to roster themselves on O/T for over 20 days in a row.

There has to be a limit somewhere and the CAA needs to take more interest in the subject.

What is the point of all the human factors training if some of it's basic concepts are ignored.

[spannersatcx]

AWN47 is simply a list of guidelines....nothing more!

Not really, sounds like a requirement to me.

Organisations shall also take note of items in paragraph 3 which require their participation in the areas concerned.

[boeing_eng]

AWN47 is full of good stuff but is written in normal CAA parlance (ie suitably vague)

Sure, we can all currently quote it to our employers until we're blue in the face! However, there's nothing in it to totally prevent anyone working Ghosters etc or any other daft amount of hours because its left up to the individual to decide how capable they are of continuing after working excessive hours.

AWN47 mentions that by law engineers are expected to take a professional attitude with reference to fitness for work etc. All this means is that if there is an incident we can be prosecuted for not following CAA guidelines . We have no legislated protection regarding maximum working hours and its this that needs resolving to level the playing field for everyone across the industry.

I think if some of the punters knew how long Engineers had been on the clock when recovering AOG’s, they would justifiably refuse to fly on the plane!

BE

[enginear]

i think you have hit the nail on the head, all authorities have their version of AWN 47. one must not forget that it is the larger companies dictate to the authorities and the only way the rules will be changed it it starts to cost them money ie lawsuits. all will be fine until something happens and you will be hung out to dry, there is one guy i work with used to do on average 65 hours OT a month, you cannot be safe working these hours and until legislation is passed nothing will change

[happybiker]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/PAPER2002_6.PDF

For the insomniacs this CAA Paper may provide some food for thought or further comment!

[spannersatcx]

interesting article in the latest issue of Tech Log (produced by the ALAE) about a case that involved AN47, and was successful as well.

You won't find it on the net as it is a paper mag issued to members. If you want to join then go here (http://www.alae.org/)

[WenWe]

....Which doesn't relate to duty times at all.

[Mr.Brown]

The article in tech log does however show that particular company's attitude towards AWN47 even if the case was not duty hours related.

[3D CAM]

We are all covered, if we want to be, by the European Working Time Directive!!!
The onus is on the individual to tell your company that he/she wishes to work within that limit which I believe is 37.5 hrs/week.
We, as a unit, have just done that very thing. Caused a bit of a stir within our H.R. dept. (if you can call it that) but after doing 97hrs. o/t on top of 12.5hr. days over a seventeen week period, we decided enough is enough! (With the odd couple of days off admittedly.)
As previously said, the extra money is very nice but does it surpass home life/ quality of life??
Work to live not the other way round. We are our own worst enemies. What does a driver do when he runs out of hours? He goes home with the companies blessing!
As long as we bend over, all companies will try to get the bat up a bit further.

[spannersatcx]

WenWe never said it did, but was pointing to the fact that AN47 is there and is there for not just the individual but for the compamny to act on as well.

[ericferret]

I thought you had to opt out of the working time directive, not in???

[NutLoose]

what always got me in Airworthiness notices was the fact we were supposed to be able to determine ourselves if we were fit to do the job if alcohol or drugs had been used......... tell that to a plod giving you a breathalyser........ I am perfectly capable of driving this car, after all I have just signed out an airliner with a bunch of pax on..........

OK not a real case senario, but you know where I am coming from.......:=

[3D CAM]

Eric.
Opt out or in?
We were assumed by our company to be opted out of the working time directive unless we told them otherwise, in writing.
As I previously said, we eventually did just that! (Opting back in.)
I am deliberately not saying which company!

[ericferret]

They must employ chimps in the HR department!!!!!!!!!!!!

[3D CAM]

Eric.
You got it in one!:D

[pacificmarlin]

145.52 Maintenance personnel duty time limitations
An applicant for the grant of a maintenance organisation certificate must establish procedures to ensure that a person who is authorised under rule 145.60 to perform or supervise maintenance, or to certify release-to-service, or to certify conformity to acceptable data is relieved from duty for—

(1) a period of at least 8 consecutive hours in the 24-hour period immediately before exercising the authorisation; and

(2) at least 4 periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in the 30-day period immediately before exercising the authorisation.

[ericferret]

Does this mean you can do 26 days in a row and then certify at the end of a 16 hour shift????

[pacificmarlin]

Wouldn't that only be one period of 24hrs min?

[whiskeyflyer]

Regarding PacificMarlin quote
145.52 Maintenance personnel duty time limitations
An applicant for the grant of a maintenance organisation certificate must establish procedures to ensure that a person who is authorised under rule 145.60

................
Anybody got a copy of any procedures or sample I could see. (will send you a digital beer/whiskey of choice in thanks :ok:)

We in RSA have the same rule coming into CAA law very soon (was announced 2 weeks ago). Its about time the ruling is being implemented, as we have been our own worse enemy continuing with an AOG snag when we know we are tired and most engineering management agree with the new law, as they can stop the bean counters pressurizing thm to push the limits.

How does the law work in practice in NZ? (was there a requirement to hire more engineers/problems with overtime? etc etc)

Which other authories have the duty time for engineers in place?

Interesting I see no reference in JAR/FAA regs for duty time limits for engineers (Check e.g. FAA FAR 145s, so unless somebody can give me a direct link, I can find nothing) Found lots of studies/workshops/conferences but no legal implementation.

EASA seems to have basically said the EU Directive on Working hours will cover the issue. Am I correct in assuming this?

[mnttech]

Whiskeyflyer,
What you are look for is this in the US:
§ 121.377 Maintenance and preventive maintenance personnel duty time limitations.

Within the United States, each certificate holder (or person performing maintenance or preventive maintenance functions for it) shall relieve each person performing maintenance or preventive maintenance from duty for a period of at least 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days, or the equivalent thereof within any one calendar month.

Note that this is only for FAR 121 (airline) operations. I did not see the same rule in 91, 135 or 145. Some state's labor law require time and a half for every hour worked past 12 in one shift, so that might be more of a stopping point than anything else. But the way this rule is written, you could work 26 straight days, get 4 off, and do it again month after month after month.

[whiskeyflyer]

thanks mmttech for the 121.377 FAA reference
I was scratching around part 145 looking for what you supplied

Looks like no limits on daily hours but thanks for the heads up on individual state law.

In my opinion Part 135 operators are where the long hours mainly arise

[west lakes]

For UK & Ec workers these are worth a read.

http://www.berr.gov.uk/employment/employment-legislation/employment-guidance/page28978.html

Note the following paragraphs: -


Where the regulations do not apply
Air transport, as covered by the Aviation Directive (2000/79/EC). This Directive affects all mobile workers in commercial air transport (both flight crew and cabin crew), but not workers employed in General AviationOn 1 August 2003, the Working Time Regulations extend cover to the following sectors:
Workers in air transport, other than those covered by the Aviation DirectiveWhat if a worker agrees to work longer hours?
An individual worker may agree to work more than 48 hours a week. If so, he or she should sign an opt-out agreement, which they can cancel at any time. The employer and worker can agree how much notice is needed to cancel the agreement, which can be up to three months. In the absence of an agreed notice period, the worker needs to give a minimum of seven days' notice of cancellation.
Employers cannot force a worker to sign an opt-out. Any opt-out must be agreed to. Workers cannot be fairly dismissed or subjected to detriment for refusing to sign an opt-out.
Employers must keep a record of who has agreed to work longer hours.
In other words you are subject to it unless you agree to opt out of it. I would suggest any employer that says different is in breech of the law
And
http://www.berr.gov.uk/employment/employment-legislation/employment-guidance/page28979.html


Daily rest

A worker is entitled to a rest period of 11 uninterrupted hours between each working day.
Weekly rest

A worker is entitled to one whole day off a week.
I have only quoted bits from questions seen earlier in the thread - the whole lot is worth a careful read.