Hurricane crash at Shoreham airshow [Archive]

bri1980

15th Sep 2007, 15:22

No spectators hit = small story in the tiny minds of the press.

It's just like when a jet depressurises and the crew initiates a controlled emergency descent. That becomes a 'terrifying death dive' to make a story. It's a sad state of affairs.

Let's just hope the pilot was able to survive-and if not, condolences to all concerned.

TwoOneFour

15th Sep 2007, 15:37

There's thousands of people watching the air show. Their friends & family at home probably want to know that it's not a repeat of Ramstein, Lvov and others. It's probably fairly obvious to those listening to the TV that if an aircraft goes down that the pilot might be injured; it's less obvious whether spectators might be involved. It's going to be relatively simple to get information on whether spectators are involved compared with reliable information on the condition of the pilot. That will come later, when somebody knows. It's really not hard to work out. :hmm:

Synthetic

15th Sep 2007, 15:39

Afraid not.

interpreter

15th Sep 2007, 15:47

How sad - on Battle of Britain day too.

Flying Lawyer

15th Sep 2007, 16:14

Unconfirmed, but from a friend in the warbirds world I've always found to be reliable.

A Hurricane crashed onto the Sussex downs on open land south of Lancing College at about 3.15 pm.
The pilot didn't survive.
The crash site could not be seen from the airfield, although a large plume of smoke could.
I don't think it would be appropriate to post the name I was given at this stage, for obvious reasons.

Very sad.

FL

Nov71

15th Sep 2007, 16:25

First sadness for loss of irreplaceable pilot
Second sadness for loss of historic, irreplaceable aircraft

IronHen

15th Sep 2007, 16:39

I've just left the Shoreham show after seeing the very tragic crash. Yes, my thoughts were immediately of the pilot. The Hurricane was taking part in a mock dog-fight with 3 Luftwaffe aircraft attacking ground forces... he appeared to be in a dive just south of Lancing College for a run-in back to the crowd, sadly he didn't pull out. I was too shocked to stay. My sincerest condolences for his family...
Pete

Nov71

15th Sep 2007, 17:14

Sorry StevenPJ, I did not mean to suggest otherwise.

(now amended to reflect sad loss of both)

foxmoth

15th Sep 2007, 17:18

I see from the BBC that a Hurricane went in at the Shoreham Airshow, pilot was killed and the aircraft written off. Very sad loss of both pilot and one of the few remaining Hurricanes.

flybywire

15th Sep 2007, 17:26

I heard the news too - terrible!!

Quidditch Captain

15th Sep 2007, 17:33

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6996734.stm

Condolences to family and friends of the deceased.

ExSimGuy

15th Sep 2007, 17:38

"simulated attack on the airport" . . .

Great display, Me's attacked Shoreham. fought off by AA and by Hurricanes and Spits.

At the end the guy next to me said "he's going in" and I looked to see one aircraft lifting out in a Victory Roll, and another "plan view", nose downward vanishing behind a low hill.

My initial thought was that it was a part of the "plan" and he was pulling out behind the hill - but it wasn't that high.

10 seconds (it seemed to me) later,there was a cloud of black smoke. Prayers were said but not a lot of hope at that attitude.

The display was continued some 30-45 minutes later with a rather broken voice of the commentator saying "we have some sadness over there, but I'm sure he'd have wanted us to continue"

Low spirits from there on and a lot of the crowd had left

The Eorofighter came in later,which probably lifted spirits a bit,but that cloud of black smoke was stil "hanging over us"

RIP, whoever was flying.

Mark22

15th Sep 2007, 17:42

RIP

http://www.shorehamherald.co.uk/shoreham-news/Tragedy-hits-Shoreham-Air-Show.3205139.jp

Silent Witness

15th Sep 2007, 17:44

Absolutely tragic. A very special pilot, and a very special aircraft. Through Adversity to the Stars.

Let’s hope the idiots in the media that salivate over these events show some respect.

Wannsee

15th Sep 2007, 18:59

As a journalist and pilot I object to the comments in this thread. Not every journalist has a tiny mind neither hunts around to miss report events such as the tragic loss of a great display pilot today. Yes the story is of public interest and some members sections of the media may be guillty of not having the knowlege of aviation we do.

The only thing that we should do is remember the pilot and the great loss to his loved ones. Let the reasons why wait until later.

Wycombe

15th Sep 2007, 19:04

Sitting here taking in this dreadful news.

Was planning to go tomorrow, and I still am, as I'm sure it's what the organisers, participating aircrew and the pilot who has sadly passed away today would have wanted.

cwatters

15th Sep 2007, 19:13

Very sad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6996734.stm

"Two Spitfires carried out a flypast in the "man missing in action" formation shortly after the crash, he said. "

WG774

15th Sep 2007, 19:14

Devastating news.

My thoughts are with the pilot's family :(

TwoOneFour

15th Sep 2007, 19:15

Let’s hope the idiots in the media that salivate over these events show some respect.

Like the "respect" you're showing? Good grief. :rolleyes:

I'm one of those "idiots" in the media and not a single person I work with would even think of "salivating" (what a revolting word) over this sort of thing.

WeeMan18

15th Sep 2007, 19:27

Keep it clean boys.

I was there today and feel devastated. Not much more I can say. The missing man formation was heart rending.

treadigraph

15th Sep 2007, 19:29

A tragedy at any time, but particularly today of all days.

I was fortunately looking at the Cat at the time, so was spared the full shock. The silence while the commentator explained the situation was remarkable.

My condolences to family and friends he leaves behind, and my thanks for past pleasures shared through his displays of these historic and beautiful aeroplanes.

andy elliot

15th Sep 2007, 19:41

Hi all, no I'm not a PP, just a lowly ex RAF Tech. Over many years, like many of you, I have stood watching and hearing the sights and sounds that chill us of that age, Yesterday I chatted at Shoreham to a 'private' Hurri pilot who may have been been the person involved, discussing the merits or otherwise of Spits & Hurris. 4 weeks ago also to Al Pinner flying the BBMF Hurri @ Airbourne. It is immensely sad when a man is lost providing entertainment to us, but in yesterday's converation, for a flyer 'there's nothing like it'. God bless the pilot (and his family) - a man who has given so many great pleasure - the " man missing in action" Spit formation has to be the choker of the day, but the close "family" that they are will surely provide some solace RIP

TwoOneFour

15th Sep 2007, 20:16

No such thing as a "lowly" tech, Andy. :ok:

vespasia

15th Sep 2007, 20:25

I was there today as well. I didn't see the accident itself, but to add to what those above have written, the almost immediate missing man flypasts by the Spits was very moving, and very fitting. How poignant that this was a BoB display.

RIP the pilot who loved flying for us, and sincerest condolences to his family and friends. A sad day for all.

DownwindToBounce

15th Sep 2007, 20:27

I was there today too. Very saddened by events. I couldn't believe what I was seeing at first.

I recall that the two hurricanes were flying away from the airfield to the NE. The lead did a victory roll then the other one, behind and to his left, began a roll in the opposite direction and descended nose down.
As it disappeared behind the trees in the distance I hoped he could recover, but in the back of my mind I realised the chances were slim. Everyone around was shocked and saddened.

My sincere condolences to those who know him. I'm sure he would want flying to go on, after all it was clearly his life's passion.

clicker

15th Sep 2007, 20:50

Hi Guy's,

I was working at the show as one of the Police controllers.
A sad day for all concerned. It may be little comfort in the circs but I can tell you that both Police and Fire units were on scene very quickly but there was nothing that they could do.

All of us in the control room were grateful that the aircraft went into a dip in the downs just to the southwest of Lancing college. Had it only been 50 ft in any direction I believe we would have had more casualties.

ExSimGuy, I may be mistaken but I believe most of the area in question belongs to farmers and/or the college and that most people there were not freeloading. Enough said.

clicker

ps Forgot to add, at the debrief it was confirmed that tomorrows show will go ahead as planned.

justplanecrazy

15th Sep 2007, 20:57

What started off as such an amazing spectacle with the Mesrs attacking the airfield & Hurris & Spits taking off at the sound of the air-raid siren. next minute... From what I saw, it looked like he was in a turning dive, pulling up with the other Hurricane. You're right, there was a delay of more than 10 secs before a plume of smoke.

Most people stopped filming & taking pics but there were those in the crowd filming the aftermath. Why??? No doubt something will appear on youtube b4 the night is out. Shame on them.

I hope he's up there still flying.

Rallye Driver

15th Sep 2007, 21:15

I was up at Cranfield on Wednesday to discuss a routing with the ATC guys for a memorial flypast next week for two WW2 aircrew who were killed on a training flight from the OTU there in 1945.

After the meeting I called in at Duxford for some lunch and saw the Hurricane take off. Don't know if it was the same pilot.

Today we flew the planned route as a 4-ship flypast rehearsal, including a 'missing man' break over the crash site.

Heard about Shoreham, when we got back to North Weald. Brings the whole thing into very sharp focus.

RD

NutLoose

15th Sep 2007, 21:31

Most people stopped filming & taking pics but there were those in the crowd filming the aftermath. Why??? No doubt something will appear on youtube b4 the night is out. Shame on them.

If I had been there, I too would have continued to film or take photographs, not for some sick sense of pleasure, but for the fact they may be of use to the AAIB, whom I would hand them over to, so they may be able piece together what went tragically wrong..

The show would I believe continue, not just to try and reduce the effects of seeing such a tragedy unfold in front of your eyes, but also to allow all the emergency services that need to get in there and possible out again without the chaos that would ensue on the roads as 20,000 people attempt to depart the show.

My heartfelt condolences to the family and friends involved, the only thought i can add to that is, at least he died doing something he enjoyed and loved, not lying in a bed riddled with cancer as some do.

clicker

15th Sep 2007, 21:46

Nutloose,

They did do a short "lockdown" to allow the emergency services to do some road closures without delay but also to allow a tannoy to go out asking for the videos etc to be handed over for the AAIB. Once the local fire brigade had taken over the scene and most of the airfield fire services returned to the airfield the lockdown was cancelled and the flying display restarted.

Once the scene was condoned off most of the roads were reopened bar a couple close the the site.

Due to the number to aircraft airbourne at the time I don't think many people saw the actual crash as they were watching a/c closest to them

Yosser

15th Sep 2007, 22:00

StevenPJ,
Cracking pilot, cracking bloke.
RIP mate, gone but never forgotten.

Edit: Totally inappropriate comments removed.

md 600 driver

15th Sep 2007, 22:05

my thoughts go to the pilot and his family he was a real gent ive never heard anyone ever say a bad word about him its seems strange i will never see him again RIP MATE See you up there
steve

Sam-MAN

15th Sep 2007, 22:49

The media really does get on my nerves at times. They were just interviewing someone who was at the airshow, he said 'They were reenacting an excellent dogfight when he suddenly turned and nose dived into the ground. When your flying a 70year old aircraft thats obviously going to happen'... Why is it 'obviously going to happen'!?!?!?!? Some people really irritate me.

Silent Witness

16th Sep 2007, 00:26

TwoOneFour, been on the BBC website recently? How dare the media show a photograph of the still burning wreckage of a Hurricane. In situations like this the press disgust me.

Sam-MAN

16th Sep 2007, 00:33

Same here Silent Witness. Not the sort of image to show on national TV while there is still a person inside there :=

dclews

16th Sep 2007, 07:16

I live about 2 miles from the crash site. I wasn't at the airshow and didn't see it happen. So sad and my condolences to the pilot's family.

Hot Charlie

16th Sep 2007, 07:39

BBC news confirms it was a Hurricane (of the BBMF?)

Hurricane yes, BBMF no.

Photoplanet

16th Sep 2007, 08:35

Other posts here have it as BD707 from Spitfire Ltd, Duxford.

Either way, it's a sad loss of a pilot.

justawanab

16th Sep 2007, 09:25

There is saddness here on two count, first and foremost the loss of the life of someone who, whilst he was doing something that he no doubt greatly enjoyed, was doing it to entertain us and secondly the loss of another of a now rapidly dwindling fine example of an aircraft to which so many people in England including my parents, and consequently me owe so much including quite possibly my very existence.

I have the utmost respect and gratitude to the men and women who help to preserve and demonstrate these old aircraft for the entertainment and education of current generations.

My dear old Dad was in the RAF late in the war and worked many long hours alongside the original Hurricane pilots so I have a kind of vicarious connection to them. Even back then, during the war, when the loss of a Hurricane and its pilot was common it was still sad ... now in a time of peace largely owed to them ... that sadness is magnified many times.

RIP

BoeingMEL

16th Sep 2007, 11:10

Wannsee ... if you want evidence of the normal and routine garbage that journo's typically spew out you may wish to check out the story on page 2 of today's Sunday Times.... there's hardly a single paragraph without one or more glaring errors.

Why can't you folks check facts before rushing into print? :confused:

Jeezus! bm

Flying Lawyer

16th Sep 2007, 11:32

It was not BBMF.
Nor was it the Vacher Hurricane, in case anyone was wondering.

It was Tom Blair's.

I don't think it would be appropriate for me to post the name of the pilot. I've been given it by friends who were flying with him in the display, but don't know how widely known it is at the moment.

Very sad.

FL

PPRuNe Pop

16th Sep 2007, 13:42

Until the name of the pilot of this unfortunate occurence is known officially. Please do NOT make it known - even if you THINK you know it.

A name has been announced in previous accidents and found to be wrong. Don't let that happen here.

When it is in the public domain its fine, and not before.

Thank you.

PPP

Pollyana

16th Sep 2007, 15:16

As a former pilot who gained my PPL at Shoreham a few years back I follow the info about the airshow every year on the net from my new abode in Queensland.
Stunned and horrified at what happened this year, my condolences to the family and friends of the pilot.
May he fly high with God now.

Fg Off Max Stout

16th Sep 2007, 15:59

Pilot's name released:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/localnews/display.var.1691950.0.tragic_airshow_pilot_is_named.php

RIP

Bluesteel705

16th Sep 2007, 16:04

Perhaps in even worse taste than some of the media coverage, footage of the crash has been uploaded to Youtube :yuk:

Disgusting :mad:

Flying Lawyer

16th Sep 2007, 16:07

Now that it's been published -

Brian Brown, from Breighton Yorkshire, was arguably the most experienced Hurricane pilot currently flying.

I met him only once - he became involved in warbirds after I'd stopped being actively involved - but he struck me as a good bloke. Other pilots who knew him well confirm that impression and say he will be sorely missed on the display circuit.

Tudor

VFE

16th Sep 2007, 16:42

R.I.P Brian.

VFE.

misterbonkers

16th Sep 2007, 18:45

RIP Brian.

You will be missed by many.

Always the man to call when I needed a cheeky quick refuel!

:(

shortstripper

16th Sep 2007, 19:42

I've only just heard! I've not watched the news or been online for a couple of days, but was flying not more than twenty miles away at the time of the crash. It seems so wrong that I had such a lovely flight, when so close, somebody's day went so wrong! I watched Robin Bowles (sorry if spelt wrong) go down a few years ago, and remember the slow realisation that it wasn't just part of the act :uhoh:

RIP

SS

justplanecrazy

16th Sep 2007, 20:02

Use by the AAIB for what? I was talking about AFTER the crash. The crash itself happened so quickly, but there were some whom were filming the scene long after the tradegy. And as BlueSteel has said, there is footage now on youtube. Sick. And its wrong of the BBC to publish photos of the burning site. Do people make money out sending the media photos?

justplanecrazy

16th Sep 2007, 20:18

For those whom think its inappropriate to show a video of the crash and burning wreckage on youtube so quickly (less than 6 hours) then please go to youtube and type in shoreham, then click the 'flag as inappropriate'

VFE

16th Sep 2007, 21:11

It is certainly not unusual for the news programmes to show airshow crashes when they occur so feel slightly relieved in this case that only the ensuing rising smoke has so far been broadcast (even on youtube).

VFE.

Brain Potter

16th Sep 2007, 21:20

I never met Brian, but as he flew from Breighton it is certain that he knew my good friend Paul Morris. We said goodbye to Paul 3 years ago to the day yesterday. What a tragic and sad co-incidence.

Deepest sympathy to Brian's family, friends and all at Breighton.

waldopepper42

16th Sep 2007, 21:24

Whilst I can't claim to be a close friend, I did know Brian, and on my regular visits to Breighton found him one of the most helpful and friendly people I've ever met, and a skillful pilot to boot.

R.I.P mate - you'll be sorely missed, my thoughts are with you and your family and friends.

WP.

Fly Better!

16th Sep 2007, 21:48

Brain Potter, hi mate, he was indeed a friend of Pauls, and a really nice bloke, with a great sense of humour, RIP Brian :(

Sliding member

16th Sep 2007, 22:12

Just read about this and I'm shocked. I knew Brian from is days at Doncaster Aerodrome. I always remember him flying a VP-1 then a Pitts. Next thing he's flying the warbirds at Brieghton. My thoughts to those close to him.

OwnNav

17th Sep 2007, 07:11

Brian Brown

Brian and I learned to fly at Doncaster in the late 70's, we bought a C150 and shared many an hour expanding our flying experience, always having a laugh, particularly when Newby was around.

I last flew with him (aero's in a Yak) from Breighton, a session followed by a mug of tea and a catch up with who was doing what, he was a total aviation person and will be sadly missed.

Get the kettle on when you hear me call downwind mate.

Andy

Yorky Towers

17th Sep 2007, 08:07

my condolences to Brian's family and my thoughts with his friends and fellow Aviators at Breighton.

Eamonn

lartsa

17th Sep 2007, 09:43

What a man he was one of the nicest people you could ever want to meet
he will be so missed my thoughts go to all his family and to all of his friends at breighton and all over [and his dogs]

here is a link to our local newspaper the yorkshire post about him

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Yorkshire-victim-of-display-crash.3206108.jp

Aer Maritz

17th Sep 2007, 10:31

:(
Sad day fo GA and historical aviation yesterday.
Aeroplane Monthly in August published an excellent spread on AE-C which highlighted what a beautiful aircraft this was.
Didn't know Brian Brown but can only conclude that he died doing what he wanted and what better way to go.
Condolences to his family, friends and the aircraft owner.
Aer Maritz

JEM60

17th Sep 2007, 12:56

I was, to some extent involved in the Musang fatality at this year's Oshkosh, Wisconsin, show. I video'd the approach, and subsequent crash. I was beseiged by a television crew and reporters, all clamouring ofr the vid tape, but despite offers of cash, I was adamant that it was going to the FAA and NOBODY else. They took it off me ten minutes later. I was appalled that people came along with their seats, and sat and watched the recovery of the body and aircraft, despite the fact that the scene was ringed by emergency vehicles. Porbably their first crash, henceforth their goulish interest. My 11th, so I am sick of them. {My first post} Hope next one is in happier circumstances.

fernytickles

17th Sep 2007, 14:12

Copied from what I posted on the RAC's guest book...

So very sorry to hear the news of Brian's death yesterday.

We have a photo of him flying his Nanchang, G-BVFX, hanging on our hangar wall. They are "racing" a red Ferrari (I think) along the runway at Breighton.
He was incredibly patient and trusting teaching me how to fly that aeroplane when I purchased it from him in the nineties. He never even grumbled when I left huge tire tracks after taxiing in the soft ground by the fuel pumps, and generously lent us his car while we waited for the rain to stop.

Brian was one of life's good guys and one of aviation's great pilots. We last saw him after Sun & Fun a few years ago. I seem to recall some margaritas and terrible jokes over dinner were involved.

Our thoughts are with his family, and friends at Breighton. I'm sure he will be sorely missed.

daisy120

17th Sep 2007, 16:11

had a bad day in the sim, then heard the news of the Shoreham prang from a warbird/744 Hong konger. Brian was a star. I taught him to fly, sucoured his early solo's and along with Roger, stroked his ego into airmanship and a solid approach to fly anything that was different. VP1 driver, Aeronca bath tub pilot, SE5A charletan and Hurricane pilot extraordinaire. We went heavy metal, joined the union, moaned about the rosters and fickle management but Brian grew in a bed of real aviation. Mate, we envied your calm tenacity and the tenor of your flying. The sim will never be the same. See you at the ultimate bash. RIP mon brave.

levo

17th Sep 2007, 21:39

Brian /Breighton

They both mean the same thing .Really nice bloke ,it wont be the same any more.

R.I.P. Brian.:(

Paul.

spitfire

17th Sep 2007, 23:25

:(

Brian represented all that is good about aviation. A great down to earth personality, cracking sense of humour, and passionate beyond belief about aeroplanes. Knew how to have fun, but approached his flying with care and responsibility.

Damn. We have lost one of the best there is.

R.I.P. "Brian Brown frum Breighton".

Lower Hangar

18th Sep 2007, 12:13

I have to agree with the previous thread...I saw the Filton Spitfire go in at the Woodford Airshow 1992 (??)...the aircraft was performing aerobatics in front of the crowd and on the penultimate loop I said to my better half " if it does another it may not pull up in time " and it didn't. These aircraft weren't designed to carry out crowd pleasing aeros at 0 ft....if that's required to pull in the crowd then get a Pitts special.......this may seem excessively Victor Meldrew but I think there is a grain of truth in the argument.

Golf India Tango

18th Sep 2007, 12:28

Such a sad turn for a wonderful airshow and display.

I saw the crash out of the corner of my eye.

My thoughts during the incident went not only to the Friends and family, but to the Air Cadets present.

They provided a wonderful service to the airshow and public. Most were having a break as the incident occured. Unfortunately a fair number of the cadets, alot of them in their early teens wanting to join the Air Force or the aviation world, witnessed the incident.

They too put on a brave face, as did the rest of the RAFA and show staff for the rest of the weekend.

Many condolences to the Friends and Family

RIP Brian

Wycombe

18th Sep 2007, 12:48

Seconded.

I was there on Sunday. Great to see what looked like a big crowd and a great show.

The references to Saturday's sad event, including the minute's silence before the start of the display, were very reverently handled - and well observed along the crowdline aswell.

As well as all those lovely warbirds, it was great (for me, anyway) to see a C130k Mk3 arriving and departing on what is quite a short/narrow runway (approx 1000 x 18m) - very professionally done :ok:

The Falcons did very well in cloudy/gusty conditions at the time of their drop aswell.

Lower Hangar

18th Sep 2007, 13:04

Thanks for that...I'd read Flying Lawyer's reply and thought....well the thread is called etc etc etc ....no disrespect was meant to the pilot involved in Saturdays accident

Martyn Northall

18th Sep 2007, 13:15

A very unfortunate and sad ending for a great Pilot. A friend of mine witnessed the crash firsthand and after much thought decided to share this picture of Brian. It was taken moments before he took off on his last flight. I thought I would post it up here to show that his last hours were certainly happy ones. He passed away doing what he so clearly loved doing :

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y177/mutleys/shoreham2007/DSC_0535.jpg
[Image Copyright of Joe Lawford 2007]

fernytickles

18th Sep 2007, 13:41

Mods,
Perhaps this thread could be split into two? One carrying the never-ending, but legitimate, discussion about whether to display or not to display vintage aircraft, and the other continuing with the tributes to Brian. That way if the tributes do get passed on to his partner, she doesn't have to wade through the argumentative part of the thread?

ps - great photo, by the way. Thanks for that.

Fg Off Max Stout

18th Sep 2007, 14:28

I concur with Ferny.The technical discussion side of an accident thread and the 'displaying of vintage aircraft' arguments are perfectly valid but do not sit comfortably alongside the condolences.

PPRuNe Pop

18th Sep 2007, 15:22

No, it is not going to be spilt into two. This thread, or this forum, is not going to be used to abuse or malign display pilots or their machines.

Just keeping to the topic is all that is required.

If you want to chance your arm at another thread berating the troubles that have gone before and will go before, as they have for years, then go ahead. But it will be watched carefully by the forum mods.

Up & Away

18th Sep 2007, 19:47

Brian Brown

Brian always made our visits to Breighton so easy and enjoyable. Nothing was too much trouble. Aviation has lost one of the best.

R.I.P.

From all the visiting Helicopter Pilots who knew you

old-timer

18th Sep 2007, 20:04

Godspeed Brian, I never met you but your smile says it all,
kindest thoughts for all family & friends at this sad time,

BEagle

18th Sep 2007, 20:32

On Sunday, at very short notice, we were asked to help out a visiting Spitfire PR XIX which needed some 100LL in a hurry. Sorted him out and off he went to his display. Fabulous aeroplane in a gin clear Battle of Britain sky.

Whilst chewing the fat with his engineers after he'd gone, we discussed the causes of some historic aircraft accidents: Spitfire XIV, KingCobra, Mosquito, P38, Firefly..... "Touch wood, this year hasn't been bad", we agreed.

Then I went flying. Landed and heard about the Hurricane. Such a tragedy. I've seen the tape of the final moments and cannot really work out what could conceivably have happened.

RIP - and I hope that 'Reichman' will be the first to buy you a beer up there, Brian.

John Farley

19th Sep 2007, 09:02

BEagle

Is the tape to which you refer the one that shows the final manoeuvre and impact?

I ask because if so I feel it is very clear what happened but of course leaves us with only conjecture as to why. BTW I certainly do not feel this is the time and place to go into such conjecture however well based that might be from one's own experiences.

JF

whoateallthepies

19th Sep 2007, 09:43

Brian buzzing a "Messerschmidt" for Yorkshire Air Ambulance 3rd anniversary. I was flying the Heli and also had a trip with him in a Bucker Jungmeister. A great bloke and true aviation enthusiast. RIP
http://i.1asphost.com/whoateallthepies/miss%20you_edited.JPG

VeeAny

19th Sep 2007, 17:45

How terribly sad to have lost such a fine man, as another member of the helicopter fraternity who had dropped into Breighton occasionally and been allowed to wander around the hangars and look in awe at the fantastic aircraft there I am truly saddened.

Was only a month or two ago I was chatting to him about the airshow season and what he was doing this year, a man who genuinely enjoyed what he did.

RIP Brian, you will be missed, aviation needs more like you.

Fake Sealion

19th Sep 2007, 19:13

Just an observation on my part - nothing more.

The video of the final movements of the Hurricane, in my view do bear more than a passing similarity to that of the Firefly accident at Duxford.

RIP Brian.

FS

daisy120

20th Sep 2007, 07:07

Good shot of the man himself and a fitting one at that. Happy as Larry and always ready to give his all.God's speed my friend.

ExSimGuy

20th Sep 2007, 11:14

@ John Farley

I feel it is very clear what happened I've watched the video* several times and I can't see it. Stall? Loss of engine? Control surfaces?

I have heard "local talk" of the engine cutting out, but the prop seems to have been rotating all the time (do piston-props "windmill"?)

One of the regional papers had a headline "Hero Pilot Avoids Crowd" - (I didn't manage to buy that paper) Maybe he was limited as to where/how he could allow the aircraft to go down by show-watchers in the surrounding areas?

Any suggestions as to what might have been the problem?

(*there are a couple "out there" showing the moments before the crash - too many just showing smoke and fires that should not be publicised - I saw that smoke last Saturday, and do NOT need to be reminded)

At our (Buffalo) Lodge on Tuesday in Littlehampton, we shared a moment's silence for Brian during our weekly "remembering the fallen"

Bye Brian - We all wish you could have been here to tell us :sad:

clicker

20th Sep 2007, 14:43

Golf India Tango, Some Police Cadets were there as well. Was at a debrief later, none saw the actual crash although all saw the resulting smoke. Their welfare will be looked after. Yes there was a slightly subdued feeling afterwards and the numbers were certainly lower on the Sunday but I believe mainly due the the poorer weather.

ExSimGuy, Several Officers who attended the actual scene and the staff in the RAFA radio room, also wondered if the aircraft was placed into the final crash site. Had it gone anywhere else then ground inj's, or worse, would have happened. I will always believe that Brian choose his final resting place.

Flying Lawyer

20th Sep 2007, 16:09

clicker

That's a lovely thought, but it does assume he had a choice in the matter.

FL

BYALPHAINDIA

21st Sep 2007, 22:06

The BBC won't make any money out of me...

And for the press - will they ever crawl back under their stone!:D

I can't imagine what it was like for Brian in the crashed Hurricane, It is always at the back of our minds.

He knew the risks of Display Flying, But he put the spectators 1st, And sadly died in the process.:(

And they have the 'gorm' to put this on You tube!!:sad:

R I P

DB6

22nd Sep 2007, 08:39

I met Brian several times at Breighton during my time at Church Fenton and he was a fine bloke, however I have no problem with the BBC and others posting video clips as I find them to be generally informative (as I teach aerobatics occasionally I want to know what has caught out an experienced display pilot).
The video of the Hurricane's final moments shows it pulling up to about 10-15 degrees and beginning an aileron roll to the left. As the aircraft nears the inverted attitude the nose begins to drop and then pitches more sharply down as if to pull through. As the aircraft passes through the vertical there is a slight change of heading and the wings can be seen to rock, then it disappears from view. Control surface position cannot be seen from the video that I viewed. These are facts, not opinions. As John Farley has mentioned though, why this happened is unclear, and having seen him display the same Hurricane at Breighton several times I find it hard to believe it was a wholly deliberate sequence of manoeuvres without some other external influence, whether medical, airframe or engine.
Having said that I will allow myself an opinion, which I believe very strongly: In a museum these aircraft are dead and may as well be plastic models. They MUST be flown and seen and heard by airshow audiences. Listen to Brian talking about the sound of a Merlin then tell me we should ground these aircraft. The sight and sound of that solitary Hurricane looping and rolling up and down the grass runway at Breighton on a warm summer day was worth a million visits to all the museums in the world, and much, much more.
Best wishes to all at Breighton from one of the Fenton Firefly pilots.

VeeAny

22nd Sep 2007, 13:06

The Breighton website has a fitting tribute and some photos of Brian at
http://www.realaero.com/news/news.htm

G.

foxmoth

22nd Sep 2007, 14:13

Whilst I agree with much of DB6s post - the videos of the actual crash itself are as said informative, what I do find objectionable on youtube are the number of videos that are of the smoke and wreckage, these I did not watch and flagged as innapropriate.:*

FlyerFoto

22nd Sep 2007, 15:25

Foxmoth said:

these I did not watch and flagged as innapropriate.:*

Spoken like a true gentleman and the very same reason why I would never post links to any of my Breighton pics in a thread such as this!

Brian could never be replaced, but I hope the rest of the members and staff at Breighton can pull themselves through this tragic event and keep Breighton the friendly, welcoming place it is, so that Brian can look down with pride on his airfield.

Brian Brown, 1957-2007, R.I.P, from aviation lovers everywhere

treadigraph

22nd Sep 2007, 17:36

DB6, thank you, your third paragraph is spot on.

Foxmoth, agreed, I have no problem with the Youtube videos but as you say the dwelling on wreckage is uneccessary.

Aviation can be so terribly unforgiving even of its most favoured children - but the most positive thing of threads such as this are the memories posted by those who knew them.

kinsman

22nd Sep 2007, 22:17

I watched the accident happen sadly and am content to wait for the AAIB report rather than speculate. However, the description of what happened is accurate and fits what I saw. The Hurricane was fairly close behind a 108 and a little to his left from my vantage point. The 108 pulled up to between 500 and 700 feet and carried out a roll to the left, rolling out in a right turn. The maneuver was carried out towards rising ground with Lancing Chapel and its associated buildings just to the right of the roll axis. The Hurricane appeared to attempt to duplicate this maneuver at a similar airspeed to the 108.

I passed the crash site today walking the dog, it is fairly close to the school buildings and an area where spectators stood during the show. It could have been a much worse accident!

Whatever the reason for the crash it is a sad loss of a well respected pilot and a fine aeroplane. I did not know the pilot concerned but from the kind words above he would appear to be one of the good guys. Accidents happen to the best of us.

In thirty three years of flying I have been very fortunate not to have seen a fatal crash, I hope I never see another!

To his friends and family my heart felt sympathy.

Woodenwonder

23rd Sep 2007, 13:48

I looked up this thread to try to find what happened to the Hurricane, but only DB6 has described those last moments in objective terms.

To me it looks like an attempt at pull through and then flicking inadvertently - I see it as a "snap" rather than a wing rock. Have heard it said the Hurricane has a crisp stall - is it prone to flick?

John Farley says he knows what happened, will he please enlighten us?

Shaggy Sheep Driver

23rd Sep 2007, 15:11

DB6 has described what happened. As JF said, the mystery isn't what happened, but why.

SSD

PPRuNe Pop

23rd Sep 2007, 15:31

'Woodenwonder,' like most others on here you will have to wait for the AAIB report before it can be decided what actually happened. even then it may not be conclusive and speculation is pointless and non helpful.

Your request to JF will go unanswered if I know him, and I do.

Time will tell. Sad as it was.

PPP

kinsman

23rd Sep 2007, 23:31

I think John Farley is well qualified to say what he thinks happened and I agree it is fairly clear why the aircraft crashed but it is not clear what caused it to do so, we may never know! However, I assume Mr Farley is rightly keeping his thoughts to himself as there may be more to this than meets the eye and we need to see what those clever chaps at AAIB discover, they may shed more light on the matter. Things are not always as clear cut as they first appear.

What is clear from the above postings is this was an experienced and well respected pilot and there are lessons to be learned as there always are in these cases. Lets make sure we learn the right ones and not just assume! Speculation is of little value but understandable!

Whatever the reason for the crash Mr Brown appears to have made a positive contribution to aviation and gained the respct of those he came into contact with. May we all have that said of us and be so well thought of when our turn comes.

Woodenwonder

24th Sep 2007, 10:19

I thought that the combined experience and knowledge which can be mustered on this forum could help discuss aviation in all its aspects; including accidents.

But if we are not to do so when there has been a death, and the only contributor who feels he knows what happened isn't going to tell us, I am at a loss as to the function of the forum.

As for waiting for the AAIB report, they might well be guided into what sort of questions to ask BEFORE writing it, if all the possible factors were discussed here.

Left to their own devices I reckon they do a pretty poor job with accidents outside the heavy, recorder equipped, public carriers.
Certainly they made a hash of my own minor prang - after I had given them chapter and verse on the system I had failed to check, including detailed illustrations of the mechanism, and a description of what I did wrong!

Shaggy Sheep Driver

24th Sep 2007, 14:29

QUOTE: I thought that the combined experience and knowledge which can be mustered on this forum could help discuss aviation in all its aspects; including accidents.
But if we are not to do so when there has been a death, and the only contributor who feels he knows what happened isn't going to tell us, I am at a loss as to the function of the forum.
------------------------------------------------------
Woodenwonder, you may have misunderstood the situation. There is no mystery as to what happened - JF knows what happened, so does anyone who has seen the video or the actual accident. If you haven't, then WHAT happened has been accurately described on here a few posts back.

What we don't know is why it happened. As far as I know JF has not professed to know that (QUOTE JF: I ask because if so I feel it is very clear what happened but of course leaves us with only conjecture as to why. ). And neither to the best of my knowledge has anyone else on here.

SSD

kinsman

24th Sep 2007, 20:16

Woodenwonder

With respect this forum is for rumour and most of what gets posted is just that. Out of respect for a dead pilot, his friends and family Professional pilots be they PPLS, Military or Commercial would rather not speculate on a web site open to the press and general public.

The AAIB are a very professional organization and I doubt anything posted here will be of any help to them. They will have plenty of video footage handed in by those at the show and witness statements not to mention the physical evidence and records. As for your remarks regarding AAIB I cannot comment on your "PRANG" but in my experience AAIB have done a fantastic job over the years improving flight safety and getting to the bottom of most accidents.

We all want instant answers in these days of 24 hour news but in situations like this they often are not available. Whilst in my own mind I think I know what happened there could be factors I know nothing about so like many others I will wait for the AAIB report. ;)

Shaggy Sheep Driver

25th Sep 2007, 09:19

I agree with your post, Kinsman, except I don't think the AAIB is quite the organisation it was. I used to have great respect for it, but was involved some years ago in the periphery of a minor accident they reported. They stepped way outside their 'objective' brief, were a tad lazy in who they interviewed, and consequently put some stuff in the report that was biased and misleading and stemmed from 'blame deflection' by the one party interviwed against another who wasn't. If they'd stuck to fact and avoided opinion, that wouldn't have happened.

fernytickles

25th Sep 2007, 12:58

To bring the topic back to its original subject...

For those of you interested who haven't already found it, the Real Aero website has a lovely photographic tribute to Brian, on the Bugle page (www.realaero.com). I just made our online donation to the Yorkshire Air Ambulance this morning in his memory. Delighted to make the donation, just wish it wasn't for such a sad situation.

PPRuNe Pop

25th Sep 2007, 13:35

It is clear that some would like to see speculation run a course. You can find that on other websites but not this one I'm afraid.

Speculation has a habit of creating scenarios that are a few miles away from the truth and which often refer to things that did not actually occur. In the end it serves no purpose - as always.

We here, for the time being, are interested only in a man who has left an indelible mark on aviation and to whom many can look up to.

Time tell, or not, as the case may be. In the meantime Brian Brown's name must not be allowed to be rained upon because someone has a view that they think is right but can turn out to be very wrong.

Please keep on the topic and no speculation please.

old-timer

25th Sep 2007, 19:32

Spare a thought for Brian tomorrow @13:15, godspeed Brian, you will be missed & remembered forever.
This is a time for thinking of Brian, his family & his friends, the investigation is for another time.

We fly, we cry, we belong to the the sky, a world without bounds, a world so beautiful & yet so fragile but just a whisper away.

Saab Dastard

25th Sep 2007, 21:54

old-timer,

Well said! And nicely put!

SD

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

26th Sep 2007, 08:49

PPRuNe Pop; for your intended aim, hasn't the Thread title become somewhat misleading?

Double Zero

26th Sep 2007, 18:30

Knowing JF, as I have had the privelege, I am damn sure he would have a quiet word wherever suitable if he thought it was required...

My only experience of AAIB / BOI was during very politically charged situations - those with a knowledge of the Harrier GR5 development will know what I mean, and a very short search would produce a relevant website.

In the case I'm thinking of, the results were very skewed indeed ( though eventually put right ) but that was a very different situation, see no reason why this sad accident should not be treated professionally and hopefully lessons can be learned in whatever way.

I saw the pilot's funeral on local TV tonight - all I can do is offer thanks to him for all the enjoyment he gave to so many people, up to the day, and sympathy for his family & friends.

I didn't see any mention of a flypast, maybe that would have been too painful.

fernytickles

1st Oct 2007, 12:25

DZ,

Check out the Real Aero website. Photos of the flypast on the "Bugle" page.

Synthetic

2nd Oct 2007, 22:28

I was there and witnessed the accident and am shaken by it. In one of those ironic moments, I had been thinking earlier in the show, that given the number of airshows I have been to, I have been lucky not to see an accident.

Commiserations to all concerned.

I knew from about ten seconds before the crash that something had gone wrong.

I just avoided the urge to vomit as I saw the smoke, and several times after.

I am split on this one - yes I want to talk to people in the aviation fraternity about what went wrong, but I also feel I should not in respect of the pilot.

One question comes to mind. After tha accident, I needed to be away from aeroplanes (for the first time in my life) so I tried to leave, but the gates were sealed for about ten minutes.

Under what laws would this be?

spekesoftly

2nd Oct 2007, 23:05

Synthetic,

I suggest the temporary sealing of the gates was to minimise congestion on the surrounding roads to give the emergency and rescue services quick access to the scene.

clicker

2nd Oct 2007, 23:11

spekesoftly,

As the police radio controller at the airshow I can confirm that was the case, also I believe that it was so the organisers could broadcast a request for videos etc before people left, although I don't know if that happened as I was rather busy making sure the main roads and local area got closed off asap.

old-timer

3rd Oct 2007, 20:50

I fully understand your feelings Synthetic, I was at Duxford went Hoof Proudfoot went down with around the same timescale in seconds of realising that it wasn't going to end well- it was a mixture of disbelief, shock, horror & above all else an absolute & awful sadness having seen him earlier in the day along the flight line & chatting with the ground crews (Godspeed Hoof, you were one of the very best in my book both in pilot skills & people skills, almost 10 years since you departed this physical world but my memories will always remain vibrant & positive of you )
I am an aviator but not any where even close to the standard of the guys & lady pilots who display & fly these wonderful machines.
I never met Brian but from what I've read & from seeing that wonderful 'contented aviators' smile in his photos I believe that he was of the same ilk, as they all are, these really are very special people with special skills (although they make light of it generally) to both fly & operate these wondeful aeroplanes takes dedication, skill, knowledge & above all else an absolute commitment which is an extremely fitting tribute to the pilots who flew them in action all those years ago, the years pass by but the common bond of aviators lasts for eternity - Per Ardua Ad Astra.

fradu

4th Oct 2007, 12:07

I was also at the show, and me and my mate tried to leave after the accident. (If I had any photograph/video footage I of course would have remained and submitted it). Like 'Synthetic' we both just wanted to get away from the airfield and away from aeroplanes.

There was a short delay in exiting the airfield, but the guys deserve huge credit for getting everyone out in quick time considering there was only one exit.

A great shame that the 2007 event will probably be remembered for the Hurricane accident, and the show in general will be associated with it for a few years to come.

Synthetic

7th Oct 2007, 22:35

Thanks guys.

As an engineer and a pragmatist, I appreciate (and do not criticise) Clicker and Spekes' sentiments. There are things more important than my feelings.

skridlov

2nd Sep 2008, 09:36

and still no published indication of this accident's cause(s)?

clicker

12th Aug 2009, 22:21

No, I've not seen anything.

Synthetic

20th Oct 2009, 06:32

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Stunt caused fatal airshow crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8315514.stm)

Please don't shoot the messenger.

old-timer

20th Oct 2009, 07:14

Thanks for the update Synthetic.

The report doesn't come across to me as being a probable cause ?
With Brians high skill levels and his extensive experience on type there must be more to it than this surely ?

Godspeed Brian, one of the very best & never to be forgotten.

treadigraph

20th Oct 2009, 07:26

The AAIB report can be read here (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/6-2009%20G-HURR.pdf)...

BOAC

20th Oct 2009, 08:03

In the absence of any further evidence, it looks, sadly, as if the vital lesson of display flying was ignored. A tragic loss.

Blacksheep

20th Oct 2009, 08:23

As some would say......high skill levels and his extensive experience on type But then, from the AAIB we have...There was no record of the pilot having completed the currency training requirements as specified in the operator’s Organisational Control Manual...mainly self-taught in his aerobatic skills. No record of any formal training course was available but he was described by associates as a competent basic aerobatic pilot... ...Some people who knew him well stated that he had never performed a Derry turnSome contradictions here.

kluge

20th Oct 2009, 08:25

Reading the report brought back a memory that scared me a number of years ago regarding height loss in an aileron roll especially with insufficient pitch at the start. The mental stick check pre manouvre being "up-check(the stick to neutral)-roll".

I flew two aileron rolls in succession and within the required airspeeds. However I entered the second roll with no pitch input. Inverted during this second roll I found myself pointing toward the ground as a result of the nose having dropped substantially. Continuing the roll I recovered in the normal way but had lost substantial height (IIRC 1,500-2,000 entry height but less than 500ft exit height). I was very shaken. Despite being trained as an aerobatic pilot in the manouvre I had experimented with two in succession not thinking of the consequences.

"There but for the grace of God.."

I recall the accident at the time and especially my sadness for the loss of the pilot who was clearly loved. My condolences to the family.

PPRuNe Pop

20th Oct 2009, 09:20

It is very sad of course but it seems that some basics were missing. As Neil Williams said in his book "the most useless air is that above you" - that, has been shown to be the case time and again.

However I entered the second roll with no pitch input. Inverted during this second roll I found myself pointing toward the ground

Those who want to try it can easily sample the consequences - just make sure you have at least 3000' below you.

DB6

20th Oct 2009, 09:52

Strikes me as similar in many ways to the P-38 crash at Duxford many years ago and in some ways to the Kingcobra crash at Biggin Hill. I am experienced in aerobatics but not in display flying, but I find myself asking why the pilots ever attempted these manoeuvres which - in the cold light of day - were doomed from the start. I mean, these were experienced, highly capable pilots, not amateurs. Truly cautionary tales for aspiring display pilots I think.

Double Zero

20th Oct 2009, 23:19

With every respect to the Hurricane pilot's family and friends, I can only remark that in my time as a BAe photographer we had the sad loss of Jim Hawkins ( test ) display flying the Hawk 200 - he was a VERY experienced & qualified Test Pilot, who did the ' usual ' mistake of apparently getting carried away with his enjoyment & looping too low; I think it was the same year that McDonnell, as then, lost their Chief / senior Test Pilot.

No matter how skilled or experienced, the ground is waiting to get you.

I knew a few Test Pilots who hated ' display flying ', for example at annual 'field days, as though highly skilled they were not used to this role, and had enough sense to realise it.

John Farley was of course the ultimate display pilot ( just as a sideline compared to proper testing ) but he did it his way, and I happened to be there when he told a visiting Spitfire pilot to go forth and multiply after said pilot did passes with the prop' literally inches away from the ground ( at the time I was young and stupid enough to be impressed ).

That Spitfire pilot, ( NOT R.H. or anyone that good ) strangely enough, is no longer with us - guess why - and if ever at an airshow I want to see graceful displays, not buttock-clenching " AARGH ! sounds from self & those around me.

Brian Abraham

21st Oct 2009, 05:29

The very, very best can still trip over their shoelaces. Neville Duke related a story of when he was demonstrating the Hunter to the Swiss. On the downline from a loop he suddenly realised he had failed to take into account the airfield elevation and resulting density altitude. Got away with it but was a close run thing, with not a little butt clenching. And I don't think anyone would suggest that Neville was anything but the consummate aviator and not want to fall victim to a red mist.

treadigraph

21st Oct 2009, 07:06

The McDonnell pilot might well be the Northrop F-20, one of which crashed during a display/demo killing the CTP (Darryl somebody?).

It was Bill Bedford in the Hunter who was very low coming out of a spin I think - I was reading the story recently and the accompanying picture of the aircraft recovering over a typical Swiss backdrop followed by an accusatory trail of white smoke is most impressive.

Double Zero

21st Oct 2009, 07:17

Yes, the Hunter incident was definitely Bill Bedford, I have a video about the Hunter where he freely describes it.

There is a large b & w still photo of the spinning smoke trail and low Hunter at the end of the Merston Hall of Tangmere museum ( which has N.Duke's speed record reheated Hunter WB188 and an equally immaculate F5 ).

spekesoftly

21st Oct 2009, 07:22

(Darryl somebody?)

Darrell Cornell.

blastcalvey

23rd Nov 2009, 14:33

Interesting that no one has mentioned the rising ground ahead of the aircraft. This would have given the impression of the nose having dropped far more than was the case and may well have led to the decision to pull through. The continuation of the roll on its original heading should have led to an extremely low but successful recovery. The direction changes in the very early part of the dive show available energy for successful completion of the roll as the report suggests. Sadly, if one studies the accident and the site, these direction changes were the sacrifice of a slim hope of survival travelling in the original direction of the pull through, over a College complex and large numbers of the public in the areas below it.