CX or QR?

[CitationTen]

Greetings!

Although I've already pretty much made up my mind, I was wondering if I could get a bit of insight from fellow aviators who may have potentially had to make the same decision.

I currently have the opportunity to be potentially employed by either Cathay Pacific Airways or Qatar Airways, and was wondering what any of you in the know would pick if you were in the same situation (taking everything into consideration, as a whole). I know everyone's ideal "cup of tea" will be different, but just would like to get some feedback. Perhaps a reason for why would be good, if you can sum it up without writing a book ;). Thanks for any replies!

[Flying Mechanic]

having lived in HK and Middle east, go HK! Qatar is a dive, have a god mate there in Qatar, he cant wait to get out.

[badairsucker]

Looking out of the window today mate, I would go anywhere other than HK as the pollution is out of control.

[CitationTen]

to be potentially employed

far cry from having an actual offer...........dont count ya chickens just yet son.


From www.m-w.com on the word potentially:
1 : existing in possibility : capable of development into actuality <potential benefits>
2 : expressing possibility; specifically : of, relating to, or constituting a verb phrase expressing possibility, liberty, or power by the use of an auxiliary with the infinitive of the verb (as in "it may rain")

I never said I had an offer. And I most definitely agree, "don't count your chickens before they hatch".

[Frogman1484]

One is run by tight fisted Chinese with a British mentality the other is run by a tight fisted Arab with a British mentality.

One has the heat the other pollution.

Neither one of them will let you live where you actually want to, and both will want you to work for nothing if they could get away with it.

The only thing I think that HKG offerers more than Qatar is...ummmm...you can drink beer in the street at Lang kwai Fong


Go For Hong Kong

[hongkongfooey]

Uhh, I don't think CX tell you where to live :confused: and the Hsng allowance is relatively generous.
I don't work for CX BTW ( or Drag ) but not really into being treated like a 3rd class citizen. Most people that have spent plenty of time in both ( that I know ) prefer HK. Most agree that the sandpit has gotten progressively worse to live in over the past 10 years or so.

On the flip side, you'll probably get a command in the 'pit 5 years earlier with a bit less grey hair :hmm:

[XYchromosome]

First of all, ask yourself the question if lifestyle is important for you or if you want to live for your job. No shame in that, I know lots of pilots that live to fly and feel empty if they don't. I also know lots of guys that fly to pay the bills and want as much time off or with the family as possible, cause let's face it: it's not really working anyway.

My advice is first of all to accept the fact that you're not gonna live at home anymore, but you're moving to either Qatar or Hong Kong.
Once you have accepted this, CX would be the better choice if you desire to go and visit the family or friends back home every now and then. CX offers bases, temporary bases and is also flexible in giving your days off together if you prefer that (eg choose a compact or supercompact roster). In QR, none of this exists, worse even... in fact your roster changes quite often and you can't really count on days off. I used to make my way to Europe from Qatar on four days off, leaving on the first flight Europebound after my landing and being back just in time for my own next flight (even though that wasn't allowed really, but it's the only way I could have some time in Europe). In CX I get more days off (most months at least one series of 8 days in a row, being on compact rosters) and it's more relaxing to go home. I always come back a day sooner here, but then again, because of the larger time difference I guess you need it more.
Again, the best attitude is not to join expecting it's all gonna be 17 days off a month and getting a temp base when you like it, but rather to feel it's nice that it comes along every now and then, and that you can bid for it. No niceties like this in QR!

In QR I was flying the A330. Lifestyle is very minimal there. It's better on the A320, but then you're always doing the ME and the India flights.
Salary is much better on the A330 though. QR gives NORMALLY 8 days off a month, but the last year I was there, a lot of those 8 days off where on outstation. Now, it's all fine having 3 days off in Cebu or Johannesburg if you're single because you can see the world, but if you have a family and you want to see your kids every now and then, it's not a sustainable situation. So again, lifestyle comes into the picture. If you want to be treated as a little bit of a slave, QR is better. Perfect for single guys, cause you make lots of money and have no time to spend it in Doha, and the atmosphere between the crew (yes, you're hearing female cabin crew and yourself) is much better because you have no other life. Now, if you have a wife and value your marriage, choose CX instead: you don't spend all of your off days in base sleeping, and there's practically no contact between cockpit and cabin crew on layovers or in flight in CX (which I'm sure, the wife prefers, and ultimately... you get to keep the other half of your money too.)

If you love your job, if you like manipulating the controls, choose QR. Flying is much more adventurous there, going to weirder and more off the beaten track places. You work more so you fly an airplane more and get more job satisfaction. In QR on the long haul, it's 3 or 4 flights a month with either 3 or 4 pilots, sleeping half of the flight, and giving away takeoffs and landings far too often. As an F/O with a HK base, you will have some "shorter" flights in SE Asia too, but it's not to say that's comparable to the short haul stuff you do in Europe or the US. Short flight in CX means anything less than 6 hours or so. So CX is a more boring job than QR to be honest. Something to note here however: long flights in QR had when I was there 3 pilots and all 3 of you stay in the cockpit the whole flight. There's no inflight rest, which I have always considered a bit a dangerous situation. I know the 340 has a bunk though, but I'm not sure they use it except for their JFK flights.

Talking about safety: QR had the newer airplanes and there was very rarely something wrong with them. I practically never had an MEL or CDL item there. In CX it's a lot more. However, in QR the pilots a lot less consistent than in CX. In CX, from personal experience, you know you can count on the guy in the next seat with your life... in QR you had excellent pilots, but also really dumb guys sometimes. I kid you not when I say that I've flown with pilots there that don't know (literally) what east and west is, and where the sun rises and sets. I am not joking here. In QR you had to have done a few flights with someone already before you knew what kind of pilot he was. I'm not saying I'm the greatest here and I try not to judge people to much, but come on... there were definitely occasion when the benefit of the doubt in QR wasn't covering it anymore. But remember, I also said you had excellent people in QR.

Training was a lot more relaxed, I would even say normal, than in CX. CX is really a pain in the ass about training and interviewing. It's true when you think: "who do they think they are?" There is a bit the mentality here that CX is the greatest airline in the world, and the best pilots in the world are here. Command training is notoriously hard here. From personal experience, I found the QR training a lot more relaxed and it's really you who messes it up if you don't pass the sim there. So if you aren't confident about this and aren't willing to really study hard here for your upgrades or conversions, you won't pass. In CX nobody gives it to you. I find it extreme that a guy who joins with some 5000 hours, then flies another 9 years as an FO with CX, can be failed on his upgrade, but that's something you have to accept in CX. Now if you think you can accept that and you're willing to study hard, CX is worth it I think. Like I said, the consequence is that I can count on the guy next to me with my life.

The salary then: seems better in QR, but consider all. I definitely took a pay cut coming to CX (excluding allowances). So why did I do it then you might ask. Well, I hope that next year of so I can buy a place in Hong Kong. CX is very generous with the housing allowance; of course the reason is that Hong Kong is a very expensive place to rent or buy. If however you spend your housing allowance on your loan, paying off an expensive place... there's really not a much better investment for your pension I think. The current housing allowance is around 55000 HKD (=7000USD = 25800 QAR). That's almost the salary of a QR A320 FO. And you can use it all to buy your own place in HK which you can rent out after it's paid, or sell it to add to your pension fund. Speaking of which: the provident fund in QR was negligible, in CX 15% is put on top of your salary and goes into a pension fund.
It gets even better if you look in the longer term: CX salaries are better if you gather a bit seniority. So yes you might have to bridge the first two or three years with a lower salary, but it all catches up later in CX. Of course, QR will probably raise salaries more often in the future than CX will...

Last: upgrades. If you value a sooner upgrade, QR is the place to go. From personal experience I would say it's happening about 5 years after date of joining... that was last year. Problem in QR is that they keep changing rules every so often, so you can't really put a figure on it I think.
CX told me it would be 9 years after DOJ, of course subject to economic cycle... I think at the moment it's a bit less than that, but the problem here is that they might pull up the retirement date. And if everyone suddenly stays 5 years longer, we'll have to see what it will be. I personally value my lifestyle over an upgrade, but that's everybody's personal choice I guess. Like I said at the beginning: first of all, ask yourself the question if lifestyle is important for you or if you want to live for your job.


PS: obviously there also the matter of Doha vs. Hong Kong to consider, especially if you have a family, but that's another matter.


PPS: This is my first post on this forum and I'm not convinced of the value of information you often find here. I just come along every now and then for the amusement, but when I saw your post, I thought my personal experience might help you. I mainly say this because I try to give you an honest personal experience, and not the 'anti management' or 'anti union' or
'the grass is always greener on the other side' views you often see here.

[hongkongfooey]

XY, if you continue to post informative, helpful, non abusive posts like that last one..............................you risk being banished from PPRUNE for eternity ;)

Nice post.

[Numero Crunchero]

Good post.

I was told 6-7 years when I joined and then it was 9 years to command. Rather than rely on bar talk I have actually quantified time to command based on expected growth rate and actual retirements over next 15 years. I can tell you there is no way it will be 9 years. People that joined 9 years ago are doing command, but new joiners today are looking at 12-13 years assuming no extrinsic event. Over the last 10 years we have had Asian contagion, SARS, bird flu, 9-11. Intrinsically we had ASL introduced. All these events slow the command rate down. Without them it would have been 6-8years instead of 9 years.

So, bottom line, I am saying it will be 12-13 years 'best case scenario'.

citation 10
I have many friends that are or were in the sandpit. Airline management is the same here and there. Pay is better there. Its closer to EUR there, and closer to Oz here.

Given command times, I would join QF/BA or home carrier equivalent. At least you can make some lifestyle decisions whilst waiting for command. If you live to fly and want the left seat, go somewhere you can get it fast. EK would be a superior choice to QR. In 10 years at EK you will be over 30% financially better off than working for CX - assuming you dont leave mrs citation and lose 50% ;-)