Get an Indian CPL without actually flying!!! Incredible...!!!

[rajasitlhou]

Hi Guys,
Check this article out....
http://www.tehelka.com/channels/TopSecret/2004/Dec/18/ts121804tarmac.asp

[haree]

No hard feelings buddy

This news is as old as air india!

[jumpdrive]

true
the f/o´s i get to fly with had never done an actual instrument approach in school....................said by them
NEVER...........
who pays the most lunches or dinners to the instructors, get´s the rating faster
& then , there they are..............sitting on an AIRLINER deck
with long sleeve, wings, names, stickers, tag´s, what a joke
andddddd being called CAPTAIN:confused:
for those who dont know ...............evryone here its called CAPTAIN....:mad:
here evryone turns if someone says captainnnnnnnn
what da F&%@!!!!!!
they should wear only 1 stripe, or none, all black
most of the times you will be ALONE in that flightdeck

[speedtwoten]

JUMPDRIVE, suprise2 you just like me when I was in India, beautiful pilots even they can't do nothing in flight deck they still CAPTAIN:{

[rajasitlhou]

It's really a very sad situation....:{ ICAO...Wake up and do something!!

[willfly380]

jumpdrive i agree with you that only you should be called capt and no one else.please tell your airline [the company that has contracted you] in writing about any such first officer who has not done any instrument approach . if they still dont respond then i suggest find a safer place to fly. speed210 check new icao regs coming into effect in march 2008 , i think you need to worry.
as far as indian journalists are concerned , i read a headline some days back about an airliner hitting a aerobridge during take off.....need i say more.

[Anonymus6]

Jumpdriver,

I'm an cargo airline pilot in US, before coming to my new company I use to instruct at a flight school that dealed with kingfisher cadets. So alot of those FO that you are sitting next to I trained them. These cadets can't fly for ****. The only thing they tried to do is bried me to fly with them more or sign them of for their checkride. And they stink (smell) so bad that it sucks:uhoh:. I hope you are not experiencing it :O. They are so inpatient that it is crazy. It is amazing that this guys are going to fly an Airbus 320 and they pretty much dont know anything, or have ever done an approach in actual weather. Anyway i think there will see a lot of accidents/incidents in india in the future, even though airbus and 737 NG is so easy to fly.

Anyway I hope I don't offend any Indian pilots about my opiniones, but it is what I experienced during my time as a flight instructor. But Indian students are very nice and they really listen to what you say.

[av8r76]

Oh please, most of the guys and gals I know who have trained in India have ATLEAST 30 hrs of flying prior to getting their commercial ticket.

And yes it bothers me to no end that I am called Captain despite being an FO.

I was at CME a couple of years ago and this young guy... maybe 19-20 was demanding something from someone on the other end of the line and called himself captain so and so. So once he was done we got chatting and I discovered the guy had a GRAND TOTAL of ZERO hrs and was there for his initial medical before he started his flying.

Only in India.

[ZFT]

Anonymus6,

I'm an cargo airline pilot in US, before coming to my new company I use to instruct at a flight school that dealed with kingfisher cadets. So alot of those FO that you are sitting next to I trained them. These cadets can't fly for ****. The only thing they tried to do is bried me to fly with them more or sign them of for their checkride. And they stink (smell) so bad that it sucks:uhoh:. I hope you are not experiencing it :O. They are so inpatient that it is crazy. It is amazing that this guys are going to fly an Airbus 320 and they pretty much dont know anything, or have ever done an approach in actual weather. Anyway i think there will see a lot of accidents/incidents in india in the future, even though airbus and 737 NG is so easy to fly.

Anyway I hope I don't offend any Indian pilots about my opiniones, but it is what I experienced during my time as a flight instructor. But Indian students are very nice and they really listen to what you say.

I hope your post was after a few bottles of good red!!!

Come on, smelly, impatient, can’t fly for @#$%. Generalisations to a horrible degree.

I too am currently involved with Indian pilots (KFA, Deccan, Alliance and Jet) and in the past was involved with the IGRUA academy and I’ve met far more good than bad. It’s up to the CFIs/TREs to ensue that the poor students do not go any further without remedial training.

Whilst the sub continent certainly has problems due to the rapid expansion, there are some good people there. You really shouldn’t tar everyone with the same brush.

Aviation is only safe with the correct checks and balances and this is the regulatory bodies role.

So many posters recount horror stories. Be responsible and contact those bodies with your concerns. You post that you were an instructor. What actions did you take to improve safety?

[flightknight]

There is no secret about the current quality of aviators worldwide. Due to the current shortage, even my 90 year old grandma can get her CPL and land a job at one of the carriers (sorry grandma- I guess you're smarter than that !).
"Aptitude", which is one of the basic requirements for pilot candidates is considered a misnomer. Over the years, I have been astonished by 250hour pilots going to the right seat of a commercial jet.
"Green Pilots" in the right seat is just not an India problem. But as long as the airlines can have a warm body to pull gear, i guess we don't have a choice.
Air Regulations have been etched in blood and lawsuits.:ugh:

[haree]

Jumpdriver,

I'm an cargo airline pilot in US, before coming to my new company I use to instruct at a flight school that dealed with kingfisher cadets. So alot of those FO that you are sitting next to I trained them. These cadets can't fly for ****. The only thing they tried to do is bried me to fly with them more or sign them of for their checkride. And they stink (smell) so bad that it sucks. I hope you are not experiencing it . They are so inpatient that it is crazy. It is amazing that this guys are going to fly an Airbus 320 and they pretty much dont know anything, or have ever done an approach in actual weather. Anyway i think there will see a lot of accidents/incidents in india in the future, even though airbus and 737 NG is so easy to fly.

Anyway I hope I don't offend any Indian pilots about my opiniones, but it is what I experienced during my time as a flight instructor. But Indian students are very nice and they really listen to what you say.

Although im not a pilot and currently donot work anywhere near airline ops.. I heard from some friends who went through these "cadet" programs.. I was surprised coz almost everyone who applied were selected and there was no mention of any psychometric/hand eye coordination tests and even after they come back its only a personal interview and no sim check whatever. I wonder on what grounds are they selected and will the airline retain all these 500+ cadets? I know some cadets who are extremely good but i hear more complaints than compliments. jus wondering.....

Haree

[NGFellow]

It can be said that you create the monster! The growth and opportunities for the Indian aviator has been great. It has caused everyone and their brother (literally) to want to become a pilot.

1. Anyone with an pilot uniform is called "Capt." It is perhaps the most annoying thing to hear, for those of us who have spent the last 25-30 years in aviation. When you elevate someone without proper experience and credentials you create the monster and they begin to feel, indeed, I am the Captain! Therefore now you are starting to create the monster.
I have seen the likes of arrogant F/O's (sorry that's what they are), mistreat ramp staff, hotel clerks, flight attendants. They got an ass chewing from me-- that was unacceptable on my watch! One F/O even refused to lift his bag and asked a F/A to do it. What a prick!

2. Flying--Oh that's what they were hired to do? There are good ones and bad ones just like any other place. They can quote you regs and SOP paragraphs but below 1000 feet with the autopilot off, look out--there goes the quality of the ride. 90% of them cannot fly a simple visual approach, and best of all, they have no concept of a runway centerline. They can only track the centerline when they are driving their car in Mumbai! Throw in a crosswind, rain and some gusty conditions and look out. And these are the guys who have been signed off for "Assisted T/O and Landings." Granted they only have 250 hrs, but hey you wanted to play with the big boys. And by the way many of the so called "senior" F/O's are just as scary (Mig drivers included). For many the touchdown zone is anywhere on the runway!

3. This young bunch is going to turn into the rudest, crudest bunch of incompetent pilots.

[rdr]

Pretty strange revelations on this one. I, personally, have found a good crop of pilots here in Jet Airways, in the sim as well as line. This is of course commensurate to their experiance and exposure.
As far as attitudes are concerned, there will always be the odd ****** in the bull ring. You should see some of the :mad:holes in Europe & Canada.

[MYROSTERSUCKS]

"those FO that you are sitting next to I trained them. These cadets can't fly for ****. The only thing they tried to do is bried me to fly with them more or sign them of for their checkride. "

Says a lot about your training abilities!!!!! N u actually signed them off knowing they cant fly??? Great work ethics!!!!!!!:=

[NG ExPat]

All this kind of crap goes on over here, and then the GDCA, makes it almost impossible to get the required Certification for those of us that have over 30 years of Airline Experience in the US. Top that off with the fact that they are now saying they will not allow any FAA Licensed Pilots fly in India past their 60th Birthday.

Another blow was an article that appeared in the Times of India Sept 9th. Information for the article was provided by a former Captain, who is Indian, saying that we Ex Pats were unsafe to fly with, because we do not undergo the same requirements for Medical Certification that the Indians do. He eluded to the fact that should we bang up one of their aircraft, Insurance Carriers would then cancel Insurance on the company concerned. If you really want to get your blood boiling, go to Timesofindia.com and Search for "To Old to Fly in US." The entire article contains more crap, than one of the herds of cattle I see walking he streets daily.

If it were not for Ex Pat Pilots in India, the entire Industry would die on the vine. The sooner these folks understand this, the better off we will all be.

[jumpdrive]

right on NG fellow

[gangsta]

hey guys" just to mention few things here, If you show all these posts by elite Airline Captains to psychiatrist the one thing he'll say they all are scared, scared of what "loosing the job" within their heart they know they cant be the part of this boom for long and they'll be back for there two dollor job in there safe countries. regarding Airmenship if they are talking look the language you guys are using for newcomers after busting your balls for several years. somebody says grand ma can fly.. ooops grandpa's are here.. dont worry pal.. After seeing so much of talent in india these pro's are jealous because they think for reaching here they almost died and these guys are just getting it!!!! Some are baffalled to see the growth some are crazy for F/A but the ultimate thing they've in there mind money..
And (Bride) is bribe. If this thing is not there.. most of the expats will borrowing mony from friend for writing there resume..
the guy who can fly the plane own its own is called captain.. wethear its a cessna... india is not for firangs.. Indianize yourself n enjoy..
cheers!!!

[propdog]

Hey gansta,

Word of advice...you really really need to take English lessons before posting.

Cheers..:\

[NGFellow]

Gangsta---you worthless piece of cow manure! We are not here for charity. I hope you are not a pilot and if you are it was probably because you bribed someone to pass your English exams. Loosing, there (instead of their). two dollor, airmenship, baffalled, wehther..... you are a real winner!
You don't even have the sense to use a spell checker.
When India has guys like you at the helm making pissing in the street and spitting paan a national hobby with the calling to "Indianize", god help this country. Another 60 years will get you nowhere. You will have expats flying your airplanes for you even when you retire. And by the way, while most expats are here for many reasons, we have no problems getting jobs anywhere. In fact most of us are getting offers weekly. So we are not "scared"of losing our jobs because of the boom ending. When the time comes we will move on. Thankfully not all Indian pilots are like you.

[Kamlesh Purswani]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on PPRuNe. I am from Hong Kong.

This is all very shocking.

Gangsta, if you really are a pilot then you are a disgrace to the profession.

[slatch]

I will start this off by saying these are my observations only, and are only that. I have been flying for over 30 years. I have never flown for a living as a pilot. I have my CFI and have instructed friends, children of friends and given BFR’s to friends. I do not instruct to make money; I have a real full time job were you get paid a professional wage. I do own a C172K and a C310. There are a large number of Chinese and Indian students where I base my aircraft. Of course word gets a round and students ask to go flying with me because they know we can both log the time (especially in the C310). Some of the guys are really nice and it is hard to say no when I am just going to go burn gas anyway. Both my C172/U and C310/A are basic airplanes. I do not even own a GPS. I believe in flight planning, cross checking VOR’s, pilotage and can use an E6-B. There is a big disparity in the ability of these pilots. I have run into a select few that are actually very competent and have an understanding of aerodynamics and aircraft operation. They have actually taken the time to become educated. Most others are totally lost and if things don’t go by the script they will probably soon have a bad day. It all comes back to the student’s motivation and training. If they are becoming pilots because some relative has the money to pay for their training and have no real interest in being a pilot other than being called captain you are in for trouble. If they are working illegally on the side to scrape by to get their training they are usually much better. Flying is skill that you must want to acquire and must be passionate about at least at the beginning. I have personally flown with some of these pilots (well they have a license) that could not even follow a checklist on the ground. Once in the air it only got worse. A few others were very honest and humble about not understanding a 1956 C310 after only training in a Garmin 1000 C172 and newer Seminole. Dependence on advanced avionics is a big problem in my opinion. I have nothing against GPS, FMS, flight directors, etc. But when the standbys are all basic steam gauges and if you can not navigate to a VOR on them there is a problem. Not helping the situation is all of the schools are looking for a profit, in my opinion they don’t really care if the student is proficient as long as they get their buck and he/she leaves the county after he/she is done. The MPL schools will probably even make the situation worse unless they are closely monitored. Like I said only my opinion and observations.

[av8r76]

Bulls eye slatch. It all comes down to motivation and desire.
Unlike the western world a lot of these kids get their licenses through the financing of relatives. In a country where graduation is a must to secure even a half decent job these guys finish high school and see a CPL as a ticket to financial salvation. The ONLY motive for them is the relatively higher renumeration package compared to a whole many jobs in India.
I have first hand experience in this because my sim partner's only motivation to complete his CPL course was his daddy's promise of a brand new luxury sedan ( well... by Indian standards anyway). This was self evident on a manual VOR procedure turn at a 65 degree bank with a bank angle warning on a procedure turn on the route check in the sim.:sad:
People like these don't have any motivation and desire to learn the art and science of flying and see it just as a job.
So that's that. There are some people who just don't care enough to learn and are career first officers. All of you criticising the local crew in India are right but you can't say that ALL of them are of the same ilk. There are guys who have a passion and great aptitude for flying and want to soak up everything they hear, see and experience. I have flown with piss poor expat captains and absolutely fantastic local captains and vice versa. So the flip side is just as disheartening.
You are here to do a job... the cards have been dealt and are on the table for all to see. Nobody forced you to come here. Bitching about it is not gonna change the situation. Tolerate the bad guys and PLEASE teach the guys who want to learn all that you know.

[Pushpak]

well said av8r76, in 25yrs have seen all types....teach the one's who want to learn and good luck to the rest.

[captbala]

Title of Capain.......With the advent of aviation, The title Captain was appended to any qualified Pilot who has done his solo. Those days, like a Ship's Captain, The pilot shouldered full responsibility and deserved every syllable of the word Captain. Over the period of years , noone has changed the requirements for the appendage of the Title Captain. It became indicative of a qualified Pilot as against a trainee pilot.Hence, even today, technically, they are within their rights to be called Captains.But, We only wish that they live up to the dignity and decorum of that title.
Similarly,whether it is a 250 hr CPL or 65 year old Airline Examiner...Both are entitled to be called as Captain due to usage of the title basically from when it started denoting one's line of duty.
As a matter of fact, if you look at the Rank structure of Indian Air Force or Royal Airforce etc, in the officer cadre the first rank you hold is "Pilot Officer"
It is just a rank, thats all. Because a Pilot Officer may not be a pilot at all. He might be a Accounts Officer, Met Officer,Doctor, Logistics Officer,Education Officer, Technical Officer , Security Officer etc etc.
Like that in civil also, the word Captain is appended to any qualified pilot who has soloed. So what name they are called by is not the issue but whether they behave themselves with the dignity and decorum the title demands is the question here.......And that will come only by maturity.
I am calling my CPL students, "Captain", trying to instill in them the the due respect I give to that title so that they understand the import of such a title.I hope they come out as matured Captains.
It is not the name but how one behaves that matters.
Regarding the quality of the RHS occupants................The situation is of deep concern to all and sundry, it is agreed . But it is similar to all other walks of life too. There are so many Doctors and engineers too who call themselves by their professional title but might not be fully up to the standard required. Circumstances aka aviaion boom, has brought about this state of affairs and only the airlines involved, their senior Captains and the pilots themselves can bring about a change. Purely for this purpose, in a welcome step,KFa has been sending their abinitio pilots even after recruitment to training institutions like mine. However as mentioned by a few earlier, training can only be to improve the professional standards. But, the mental maturity must come from within ones inner self and more importantly. forums like these play an integral and important part in bringing about that maturity in pilots' minds
captbala